framing coloured pencil drawing in contact with glass?

Create a Post
stickybubble

stickybubble

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Sep 1, 2024
Posts
9
Location
uk
Business
artist
Hello, I have been told by a (rather angry) artist that I bought a picture from that it should be framed without a mat and with the paper in direct contact with the glass.
He says that this is because air will destroy the colour somehow and that this is how coloured pencils are supposed to be framed.
I have never heard this before and so far googling has turned up nothing, in fact the opposite. I have had pictures stick to glass before so I try to always use mats now. However, he insists that I re-frame the picture.
It's not a big deal, it's just a cheap frame, but I really am curious about where he got his information or if there is some misunderstanding going on.
The pencils in question are caran d'ache.
I just had to take the back off the frame to check that so I may as well redo it now. However I will also do a specific google search in case there really is something strange about caran d'ache.
I am thinking that somehow he misunderstands what the problem is with UV light? Or perhaps he read very deeply into the subject and came to this conclusion himself?
Can anyone help me understand this please? Like I said it's not a big problem, I'm just a bit confused (and to be honest a little worried that in 10 or 20 years the picture will be ruined because it's stuck to the glass).
Thanks everyone.
edit: I have emailed caran d'ache to see what they say, but it takes companies a long time to reply usually
 
Last edited:
Unless it’s mounted the art will buckle because humidity will be different around the edges than the middle. Expansion/contraction will be very evident. IMO your customer hasn’t done enough research.
 
Greg Fremstad said:
Unless it’s mounted the art will buckle because humidity will be different around the edges than the middle. Expansion/contraction will be very evident. IMO your customer hasn’t done enough research.
Click to expand...
Ok I'm sorry now I'm even more confused. Mounted: you mean attaching it to mount board behind the drawing, right? So that is yet another issue to be aware of. I guess that means part of what he said makes sense - he wants it on top of a white mount board, but he didn't say it had to be attached to it (is that necessary?). I could get mounting spray or tape and stick it to some mounting board and then put it back in the frame, but I thought it was a bad idea to stick pictures to anything.

Does this relate to the issue of him wanting it to be in contact with the glass in any way?

He's not a customer, I just bought a picture from him and I'm trying to put it in a frame (well I have done, and I have already redone it now so the picture is in contact with the glass). He is insistent that coloured pencil needs to be framed with the paper in contact with the glass so as to exclude the air, because the air will "alter the pigments". NO MATTING. Does that sound familiar to you at all? I am quite worried that this will turn out to have been a really bad idea in 20 years when I take the frame off for some reason and half the picture is stuck to the glass ...

I'm sorry that I'm asking stupid questions but although I've framed a few pictures my efforts have been very amateur. I'm more of an artist than a framer, and even that is something I've not done much of for a long time due to illness. I have read all about framing in the past though. I have forgotten a lot of it so I just assumed he must be right and I'd just forgotten something. It's looking more and more like he's the one who has misunderstood how to frame his art though.
 
The short answer is that this artist doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Keep it away from the glass!

Putting it against the glass will not exclude air from the frame, you would have to stick it to the glass for that (face mounting), as well as back it with glass or metal as well, and then hermetically seal it. Then, if air really is an issue, firstly remove all air that would be trapped in the frame and replace it with argon! Extremely specialist and horrendously expensive.

Air and water vapour can permeate the backing and mounting boards, plus get in through the perimeter, but that’s not a big issue as long as the frame is sealed from dust and artwork spaced away from glass.

“Mounting” mentioned by Greg above means to stick the whole thing down, either in a press or with adhesive paste, and that is extremely bad practice for original artwork and still would not make it ok to put against glass.

Air can condense against glass and encourage mould growth. If a mat is not wanted, then the artwork can be float mounted (mounted to see the edge of the paper), with hinges, as per a mat, but more of them, and concealed under the artwork. Then a spacer is fitted in the frame rebate.

But just ignore the guy and mat it. Lie if you have to!
 
This idea of using a glass/backing sandwich may come from a traditional method of treating pastel on paper. It was commonly used before art conservation and preservation were introduced to the retail picture framing community.
There is really no instance where art contacting glass is beneficial to the art, though there are instances where the the art is either sacrificial or readily replaced where direct contact is practical.
For works on paper the recommended space between the surface of the art and the glass is a minimum of 1/8” (3mm). Which is the equivalent of 2 standard mat boards or a single 8-ply board.
 
I also disagree with this artist who does not know the chemistry and mechanics of the product that they are using. A little knowledge can lead to disasters.

Most, if not all brands of colored pencils are comprised of a colored pigment infused into a binder of some sort to hold everything together with different types of wax being a primary ingredient. This wax is the "glue" that holds everything together. With changes in temperature, the wax will change its properties and will have the propensity to stick to the glazing (glass or acrylic).
 
“Mounting” mentioned by Greg above means to stick the whole thing down, either in a press or with adhesive paste, and that is extremely bad practice for original artwork and still would not make it ok to put against glass.
Click to expand...

Yes this is what I thought but I do know occasionally people resort to it for one reason or another. One problem is that his picture goes right up to the edge of the paper, and the border of the paper is apparently an essential part of his style and he wants it visible. Using a mat meant that this part was hidden (we're talking about maybe a millimetre of overlap, the mat just barely fitted the paper and held it in place) and he is quite angry about that too. He wants it redone on a white sheet of paper, so that the border stands out.

I have "hinged" pictures before but not original artwork, and also there simply isn't any white border around the picture to risk sticking tape to. I may try "floating" it as you describe (so that there is a white paper border behind it as he wants) but the whole glue/tape thing ... eek. I have used mounting spray etc on drawings I've done in the past and in the long term it was a very bad idea. I was warned and did it anyway and vowed not to make that mistake again.

There just doesn't seem to be any way of framing this that doesn't risk destroying it except by using a mat that will cover his border. A mat is also clearly essential. So far everyone is unanimous about that.

I think the only realistic option is to lie.

Sorry guys I may have to delete this thread in case he finds it. I just think it's too obvious who I am if he finds this thread. He may start googling because obviously when he told me this I queried it. There really are no google results for this issue before I made this thread (and another elsewhere too). I feel a bit exposed. You've all been really helpful and patient though. The person who said maybe he has got confused about an old way of treating pastel drawings may be onto something. He MUST have got this idea from somewhere.

(This picture was relatively expensive from my perspective too so it would be a shame if it got ruined).
 
This is not intended to be harsh, so please don't take it that way:

You don't have to lie.
You could just admit that you don't have the expertise to treat the piece correctly and that your inquiries have led you to understand that what he is asking of you is potentially harmful to the piece. Return the art and any funds, and wish him well.

Just FYI: Community policy doesn't include deleting threads. You have 30 minutes from the time of posting to edit or delete a post, but only admin has the ability to delete beyond that point, and they rarely exercise that option.
 
Community policy doesn't include deleting threads.
Click to expand...

Oh ok thanks for letting me know, I did read the T&C page but I was looking for something else at the time. I'll just have to take my chances.
Returning the art would be the nuclear option really - I bought it from him for my home, he's not a client. It would be like slapping him in the face, I think, and he's a friend of mine albeit one I don't know very well. I think he'd be really upset and it wouldn't be worth the fallout.

I'll have a think about everything and maybe consult a few non-artist friends on how to maybe talk to him about it diplomatically. You know. Like an adult ...
 
That does change the complexion of things, doesn't it?
It's yours now.
Put it away until you have mastered the art of float mounting (blind Washi hinges).
Do a search here for "Hedgehog Mount" which just may be the thing you need to learn.
Practice on blank sheets of paper.
 
I think at some point almost all picture framers have had occasions where the artists "ideas" about how to frame/display the artwork they produced are contrary to established professional picture framing standards.

The fact is, once you paid for that piece of art, it is yours to do with as you please. The artist can put no demands on you as to what you do to protect your property.

This artists personal feelings have nothing to do with this.
They produced an artwork.
You enjoy it enough to compensate them for their creativity and work.
The end.

Now you are doing your due diligence to learn "good practices" from professional framers. Which will allow you to enjoy your art, the way you want to, and not throw your money away by using improper methods to display the piece.

If the artist believes that there is only one way to display their work and they did not provide that as part of the sale, then they basically sold you an unfinished piece.

Some artists will supply a note with their artwork describing methods and design ideas for their customer to bring to the framer.
A purchaser of artwork is under no obligation to follow the artists "suggestions". Especially if, (as you have discovered) the suggestions are proven to be flawed in concept.

You don't have to lie. You don't have to appease the artist.
You do what you want to work YOUR property.

You could tell them something like, "I've learned some things about how to frame this. I want to be sure to do it in a way that will protect it as best as possible, because I like it so much. Here is what has been suggested..."

Personally, I would do as other posters have suggested.
-Hedgehog mount on 4 or 8 ply ragboard (the edges will be completely visible)
- floated on an appropriately coloured backing mat
-Use a frame that is deep enough to accommodate all materials plus at least 1/8" or more of space away from art.
-Conservation or Museum grade acrylic or glass.
This is pretty common for projects that are constrained by limitations such as; no mat desired, no coverage of art edges, no contact with glazing, etc.

Do as search for the term "float mount artwork" or something similar.
You'll find plenty of descriptions of more than one way to achieve this method.
If you are doing this yourself, practice a bunch. Or have it done by a professional.
 
Last edited:
So....
The artist thinks that air will destroy the art, but they do not sell it in hermetically sealed containers?
Seems they have beliefs that they are not willing to back up.

Artists can have some peculiar ideas.
 
If this art is worth something, find a good professional framer.

No glue or pressure sensitive tape should touch the art.

You can float mount it (I ditto the hedgehog mount) so the edges will show.
Normally, a sandwich between backboard and plexiglass could be done, but I would advise against that for pencil, pastels and some paints.

I don't think it is bad to ask questions. If the artist would find this thread, maybe he or she will read it and understand that it is not the way to preserve the art. Most of us have been doing this for a living for a very long time.
 
wpfay said:
That does change the complexion of things, doesn't it?
It's yours now.
Put it away until you have mastered the art of float mounting (blind Washi hinges).
Do a search here for "Hedgehog Mount" which just may be the thing you need to learn.
Practice on blank sheets of paper.
Click to expand...
oh thanks so much! I will look into that as soon as possible and tomorrow I will take it out of the frame and pack it away carefully somewhere while I research.
I think maybe I will need to find a framer but the person around here who was doing that doesn't seem available any longer and nobody knows of anyone else.
I am pretty diligent though and I can order things eg frame, materials, mat, whatever, and probably can manage it.
Knowing what search terms to use is so important.
Nikodeumus said:
I think at some point almost all picture framers have had occasions where the artists "ideas" about how to frame/display the artwork they produced are contrary to established professional picture framing standards.

The fact is, once you paid for that piece of art, it is yours to do with as you please. The artist can put no demands on you as to what you do to protect your property.

This artists personal feelings have nothing to do with this.
They produced an artwork.
You enjoy it enough to compensate them for their creativity and work.
The end.

Now you are doing your due diligence to learn "good practices" from professional framers. Which will allow you to enjoy your art, the way you want to, and not throw your money away by using improper methods to display the piece.

If the artist believes that there is only one way to display their work and they did not provide that as part of the sale, then they basically sold you an unfinished piece.

Some artists will supply a note with their artwork describing methods and design ideas for their customer to bring to the framer.
A purchaser of artwork is under no obligation to follow the artists "suggestions". Especially if, (as you have discovered) the suggestions are proven to be flawed in concept.

You don't have to lie. You don't have to appease the artist.
You do what you want to work YOUR property.

You could tell them something like, "I've learned some things about how to frame this. I want to be sure to do it in a way that will protect it as best as possible, because I like it so much. Here is what has been suggested..."

Personally, I would do as other posters have suggested.
-Hedgehog mount on 4 or 8 ply ragboard (the edges will be completely visible)
- floated on an appropriately coloured backing mat
-Use a frame that is deep enough to accommodate all materials plus at least 1/8" or more of space away from art.
-Conservation or Museum grade acrylic or glass.
This is pretty common for projects that are constrained by limitations such as; no mat desired, no coverage of art edges, no contact with glazing, etc.

Do as search for the term "float mount artwork" or something similar.
You'll find plenty of descriptions of more than one way to achieve this method.
If you are doing this yourself, practice a bunch. Or have it done by a professional.
Click to expand...
This is also all really useful, thank you. I do feel a bit like, well, if he wants it all done such a specific way he really should have done that himself or at least given me detailed instructions beforehand. An "unfinished piece" sums up my feelings on the matter quite well.

I should say he hasn't been nasty or anything, I am just sensitive. It's just all a bit random and unexpected and of course I'm already busy dealing with about six other "adult" things this week and didn't need more issues to worry about!

All's well that ends well, I've already learned a lot just by asking questions, and hopefully the crayon company will reply too. I could learn a new skill! And who knows, maybe he will take it well if I explain.
 
Many times, I've had folks bring in art, with correct specifications from the artist about how to best protect it.
But, in your case, the artist is adamant about doing something that's actually not the best. I think your idea of shelving it
for awhile is good. It will help you to decide what matters most to you, and might also shift the artist's attention away.
 
There are times when you have to stand your ground when people make requests that are basically
bad practice. Non-framers get silly notions based on information they have gleaned and they don't
fully understand it. You are the professional.
Can you imagine going to a restaurant and telling the chef how something should be cooked? 😬

The thought occurs that the artist could achieve the 'look' he desires by using a bigger piece of paper
and masking an area around the outside. 🙂
 
Ylva said:
If this art is worth something, find a good professional framer.

No glue or pressure sensitive tape should touch the art.

You can float mount it (I ditto the hedgehog mount) so the edges will show.
Normally, a sandwich between backboard and plexiglass could be done, but I would advise against that for pencil, pastels and some paints.

I don't think it is bad to ask questions. If the artist would find this thread, maybe he or she will read it and understand that it is not the way to preserve the art. Most of us have been doing this for a living for a very long time.
Click to expand...
ok your warning is noted, so I think I'd be out of my depth trying to frame this.
I'll look into finding a proper framer. At least them I can tell him the framer is the professional who used their judgement.

I think I will eventually just have a chat with the artist about this and try to help him understand. I just need time to get my head around it.
In the long run he will benefit from the advice, I think.
Also I can't possibly be the first person who has queried this.

Thank you all again so much. This is a really friendly and helpful forum. Nice to know places like this still exist online.
 
This is what I show to customers who argue that it's OK to put glass directly in contact with original pencil/crayon/pastel/charcoal and many other kinds of art media.
I removed broken glass from an antique pastel that had been in the original frame for many many many decades.
20240903_130144.webp


Examples like this are why best practices for picture framing were developed. To protect the art from harm.
 
Ylva said:
If you share where you are, we might be able to direct you to a framer. The UK has its own forum as well.
Click to expand...
I live in too much of a remote place, it's really identifying for anyone who knows me. If I lived in, say, Birmingham, I wouldn't feel as exposed. Also really there isn't much here because there aren't many people. There must be framers somewhere because there is an art scene, but I can't travel at all at the moment and the framer I used before was right in town with me (tiny tiny town).
Nikodeumus said:
This is what I show to customers who argue that it's OK to put glass directly in contact with original pencil/crayon/pastel/charcoal and many other kinds of art media.
I removed broken glass from an antique pastel that had been in the original frame for many many many decades.
View attachment 49809

Examples like this are why best practices for picture framing were developed. To protect the art from harm.
Click to expand...
oh yikes yes I've had a couple of disasters myself with irreplaceable old family photographs, so nothing worth any money but it's absolutely gutting anyway.
At least I can see that this is a problem you've encountered many times before, enough that you have resorted to showing people this to save having to argue with customers!
The toad thing is just some silly meme I stole from facebook, you're welcome to steal it from me and repost it ... I just searched my computer for a suitable profile pic that wouldn't identify me too easily and that was the first thing I found that would "do". :)
 
I'm in the UK and at the moment I'm not taking on work from new customers. My backlog stretches
out of sight and I have regular work from pro artists who I've known for many years. These people need
their work framing within a reasonable time. They have customers waiting and exhibitions booked.
People ask me if I know of another framer they might go to and frankly I'm at a loss nowadays. The one man nearby
that I would trust and recommend is in the same position I am. There are a few home-based framers scattered about
who I don't know. They seem to come and go but I wouldn't go to them with anything of import. It seems that many
people get the idea of doing picture framing with little idea of what is involved above a basic level. No real training either.
I may be maligning them but top level framing seems to be dying out.
That's maybe why there's not enough of me to go round. 🤣
 
Prospero said:
I'm in the UK and at the moment I'm not taking on work from new customers. My backlog stretches
out of sight and I have regular work from pro artists who I've known for many years. These people need
their work framing within a reasonable time. They have customers waiting and exhibitions booked.
People ask me if I know of another framer they might go to and frankly I'm at a loss nowadays. The one man nearby
that I would trust and recommend is in the same position I am. There are a few home-based framers scattered about
who I don't know. They seem to come and go but I wouldn't go to them with anything of import. It seems that many
people get the idea of doing picture framing with little idea of what is involved above a basic level. No real training either.
I may be maligning them but top level framing seems to be dying out.
That's maybe why there's not enough of me to go round. 🤣
Click to expand...
It does seem like that to me, too. It seems to be a general trend in Art and it's getting harder and harder to find art shops, materials etc. Even things that I would have thought were basic - I searched all the shops near me for everyday A4 graph paper a few months ago. All the kids do everything on the computer now. As for finding pads of A1 graph paper or layout paper - very very hard or even impossible. I did manage to get some layout pads but A1 graph pads seem to have gone the way of the dodo worldwide. I used to use a lot of this stuff and I'm starting to draw again etc and just finding the materials was a slog. Everywhere the same story "there just isn't the demand any more". I remember years and years ago I used to be able to easily get A0 paper in all different types, there was a whole cabinet full of speciality papers in the art shop where I lived, and then it just stopped being available.

Even the variety of sketchbooks just doesn't seem to be there.

I find it a bit upsetting as I actually enjoy the process and enjoy watching people draw/paint, or just admiring something someone did with their hands in a different way to the enjoyment I get from computer art.

I suppose the kids don't mind but I think we're losing something.

I guess this is all a bit off-topic, sorry!
 
stickybubble said:
It does seem like that to me, too. It seems to be a general trend in Art and it's getting harder and harder to find art shops, materials etc. Even things that I would have thought were basic - I searched all the shops near me for everyday A4 graph paper a few months ago. All the kids do everything on the computer now. As for finding pads of A1 graph paper or layout paper - very very hard or even impossible. I did manage to get some layout pads but A1 graph pads seem to have gone the way of the dodo worldwide. I used to use a lot of this stuff and I'm starting to draw again etc and just finding the materials was a slog. Everywhere the same story "there just isn't the demand any more". I remember years and years ago I used to be able to easily get A0 paper in all different types, there was a whole cabinet full of speciality papers in the art shop where I lived, and then it just stopped being available.

Even the variety of sketchbooks just doesn't seem to be there.

I find it a bit upsetting as I actually enjoy the process and enjoy watching people draw/paint, or just admiring something someone did with their hands in a different way to the enjoyment I get from computer art.

I suppose the kids don't mind but I think we're losing something.

I guess this is all a bit off-topic, sorry!
Click to expand...
Is this what you are looking for? Amazon seems to have plenty of A1 paper bud not pads.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Frisk-A1-Graph-Paper-130gsm/dp/B00GY7HPIS
 
Create a Post
Back
Top