Opinions Wanted Frames for 19 Century original photographs

JFeig

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I had a phone call from a former customer who I have not chatted with in at least 25 years. He is a leading collector of antique photographs dating back to the origins of photography.

He was looking for advise in sourcing original French Second Empire picture frames for some albumin prints circa 1858 from France. He already has them in standard size mats with an O.D. of 16" x 20" with 4 ply and 8 ply rag boards. I do not know if they are from the unbuffered boards. He told me that he is currently using ready-made frames from Decor.😞😢 These are not exactly what I would consider as being appropriate for such items.

He was looking for a cheaper source of these frames than his current source, eBay FR, due to the cost of shipping, plus a person who could clean and repair the frames for exhibit in museum shows.

As a framer and gilder/restorer of frames I did enjoy the conversation. I doubt; however, that anything will come of a professional nature between us. One of his inquiries was for me to take a modern ready-made frame and gild/antique it with metal leaf or real gold leaf.

Does anyone have any comments?
 
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As a framer and gilder/restorer of frames I did enjoy the conversation. I doubt; however, that anything will come of a professional nature between us. One of his inquiries was for me to take a modern ready-made frame and gild/antique it with metal leaf or real gold leaf.

Does anyone have any comments?
Your doubt seems to be well founded, and I admire your restraint.
Those prints could be of great value depending on who made them and especially if they were printed by the artist within a few years of taking the photograph. Prints were made later of many of these in both albumin and silver gel and don't have near the value, though we found an Atget in a local bookstore done on silver gel and it was appraised at $5K.
If the collector wants period correct reproductions, he should be willing to pay for that product. If not, he should be made aware that his options are limited.
I would also warn him of the dangers of using buffered papers on albumin prints.
 
He collects original prints by Wm. Talbot, Louis Désiré Blanquart-Evrard, and Daguerre printed in their lifetime amongst others. Several major museum curators are vying for his collection.

Using unbuffered mat board was one of the first things out of my mouth. "You can lead a horse to water, you cannot make them drink"
 
It seems you have done your part to inform this person that their choices could have serious implications to the continued well being (and value) of these items.

You are not obligated to perform work that you know can and likely will be harmful to items of high value.

You can choose to offer further educational opportunities, so he can make informed decisions.
PPFA Guidelines, University or Government archive documents for photographic preservation, etc.

You can have a document signed to absolve you of any responsibilities if he insisted on proceeding with processes you don't recommend.
This has been discussed several times here on the G. It may not hold up to legal scrutiny, but may help to alert him you are serious about what you recommend.

Or you can simply politely refuse to take the job as you won't perform work you can not endorse.
Recommend him to someone else, perhaps someone you know will give him the same advice. This may also change his view on how to proceed.

I've related in the past a time when I refused to perform a job in a way the customer insisted because I knew it would fail.
I didn't want to waste either of our time and money.
She went out and bought supplies somewhere else, took it to another framer who also declined the job.
Never saw her again.
 
I honestly don't know what you can do. Do I understand correctly that he has found the appropriate frames in France, but it is too expensive (frames and shipping)?
I do not know if there would be a 'cheaper' option, unless he wants just lookalikes at which point, he might as well continue using the Decor frames probably.

He has matted them to standard US sizes. The French frames will be sized differently.

Does he not have a source at the museum, for cleaning and possibly restoring the frames. I would think any of the closed corner vendors would be able to do this as well? (Maybe not, I simply don't know)
 
Do I understand correctly that he has found the appropriate frames in France, but it is too expensive (frames and shipping)?
I do not know if there would be a 'cheaper' option, unless he wants just lookalikes at which point, he might as well continue using the Decor frames probably.

Does he not have a source at the museum, for cleaning and possibly restoring the frames. I would think any of the closed corner vendors would be able to do this as well? (Maybe not, I simply don't know)
I a single phrase "champaign taste with a beer budget".

Yes, he was complaining about the cost of transportation from Europe as well as the unknown condition of the frames. He was concerned about the cost of cleaning of the frames and their repairs as well. Mats can be cut to adjust from metric to imperial as I am well versed in the conversion. BTY, I quoted him $90/ hour which is well below what a frame conservator would charge today.
This is a link to what he is looking at (note some will not ship to the USA. https://www.ebay.fr/itm/276812805701 Cadre Ancien en Bois et Stuc Doré Sculpté de feuilles d'Acanthes 43cmx49cm | eBay

This a link to a modern ready-made that he is also looking at. https://www.decormoulding.com/ReadyMadesGroup.aspx?id=1024 :: Welcome to Decor Moulding & Supply He doesn't like the finish of this frame. DOH
 
I couldn't find any that would ship to the US (I looked at a few) The price itself is more than reasonable. Maybe he should take a trip to France LOL

Then there are antique stores, yard sales, thrift stores
 
He was looking for a cheaper source of these frames than his current source, eBay FR, due to the cost of shipping, plus a person who could clean and repair the frames for exhibit in museum shows.

One suggestion you might pass along.
Have the customer request the Decor frames be shipped without the glass.
Less weight and less packaging required.
Standard size regular glass is cheap. You could sell him a box X2 cost.
I occasionally did this when I has the photo shop.
 
One suggestion you might pass along.
Have the customer request the Decor frames be shipped without the glass.
The individual has requested UV filtering glass vs Museum® glass or Optimum® acrylic(anti-reflective and UV filtering) due to the nature of the items being preserved.
He is semi knowledgeable regarding picture framing as a very high end collector. His thought is that the AR products will not be as "distortion free" optically as just CC glass, even though the two are both coatings on the surface.
The Decor ready-made frames referral was to show his budget for truly historical items worth thousands of dollars.
 
What precisely does "distortion free" mean to him?
That's not a term I've ever heard when discussing framing glazing.

Does he mean reflectivity/transparency?
Or colour shift?

Colour difference of the various glazing considerations is easy to demonstrate.

TrueVue CC certainly imparts a slight colour shift. Their Museum option not as much.

Since you aren't seeing this customer in person, perhaps direct him to the TrueVue website so he can learn more about their products.
 
When I asked Jerry why he was hitting himself in the forehead with a 2X4, he responded...

Because it feels really good when I quit!


Last I checked TruVue CC coatings were applied by sputter coating and under indirect light the "Orange Peel" can be seen. I have worked with a lot of photographers and they spot that effect pretty regularly.

ArtGlass now makes their AR99 (anti-reflective, UV filtering) on Water White (low iron) glass, so there is a minimum of color shift from the iron in conventional glass. There is also no texture to their coatings.


I feel your pain. I have worked with serious photo collectors, and there is resistance to technology that they are unfamiliar with.
 
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