Question For anyone that enlarges prints

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Puppiesonacid

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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Ive been reading about different Ink jet printers, and thinking about getting into photo enlargements as a way to sell more framing, but do not want to get into restoring photos. Im thinking about getting the Epson 9880 for this idea.

My questions are for anyone using these since there are 2 versions of the printer out there. one with colorburst, and one without. or a difference of 1000 dollars between the 2.

is photoshop better than colorburst? or is colorburst worth getting? or is it cheaper to buy a program separately instead of buying it with the printer? i know nothing about any of the programs out there so any insight would be of great help.
 
I'm using PhotoShop because I already owned it and how many $1000 programs do we need to own.

I was wondering also what all Q-Image does beyond RIP. Are there editing capabilities in this $150 software.
 
I have been using Epson wide format printers for close to 10 years. I have never had a RIP software. I use Photoshop & Q-image for all of my printing needs.

If I had to get a new printer (believe me I want one) I would get a 9900 instead of the 9880. For me the big difference is in being able to print art papers & photo papers with out switching between the matte & photo blacks.

I currently have a 9800 (matte black for art papers) and a 4800 (photo black for photo papers) this limits me on the size I can print photo papers.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
I'm using PhotoShop because I already owned it and how many $1000 programs do we need to own.

I was wondering also what all Q-Image does beyond RIP. Are there editing capabilities in this $150 software.
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There are Jeff, I just don't understand how they work. Since I understand Photoshop, I am not interested in learning to edit in q-image. but for ganging print jobs, I have been using q-image quite a bit.
 
For the most part photoshop and colorburst aren't the same thing.

I haven't used colorburst so keep that in mind. I am familiar with it though.

Photoshop is for digital graphics. It will do all kinds of color adjustments, add text to an image, distort the image, crop the image and on and on. It's probably the most robust software I've ever seen.

Colorburst is RIP software. In printing it's where the rubber hits the road. It takes your image and processes it into something the printer understands and can reproduce.

Do you need it? That depends. Photoshop will print. It doesn't translate curves and such quite as well as rip software. Also laying out many prints of different sizes on a roll to print is a nightmare with photoshop but you can do it. Finally if you decide you need/want RIP software I'd look at a much much cheaper program called Qimage. I think the "pro" version of it is about $70. It does a darn fine job for a fraction of the amount.

I offer for your consideration for you to buy the printer then photoshop. Once you out grow photoshop and ready to move onto a dedicate printing program then look at RIP software. I'm sure Colorburst is an amazing program but I haven't found a need for it yet.

Good luck and I'm jealous. My printer is aging and it's about time for me to start considering a new one.
 
Yall beat me to it.

Jeff I'd look at Qimage. The print quality is superior to PS. Also the ease of printing various files far exceeds PS.
 
I just looked up the price of the Epson 9900. At http://www.mpex.com it is $5499.95 with free shipping. I would not be surprised if there is also a rebate available on it or will be shortly.

As to mpex, (midwest photo exchange) they are in my home town and have an actual brick & mortar store. I have found them to have the best pricing on a consistent basis.

One other point to remember is that a large format digital printing station requires quite a bit of room. First these printers are not small, then there is storing rolls of paper. You will also need to have a robust computer and I would also suggest a quality scanner.

All together plan on spending close to $10,000 between printer, computer supplies & software.
 
FrameMakers said:
As to mpex, (midwest photo exchange) they are in my home town and have an actual brick & mortar store. I have found them to have the best pricing on a consistent basis.
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Just yesterday I was looking at the ColorMunki online. I hit the "shopping" button in google and the cheapest price by far was an eBay online store. Guess who's online store it was?

I too would suggest looking at them for printing/photography needs.
 
10,000??? wow. thats a bit more than i was thinking.

do you think it is well worth doing for that kind of price?

with the 9800 and a pretty good scanner i was thinking more along the lines of 5 or 6 thousand with ink and paper. does the computer really need to be that good or expensive? im not doing touch ups or anything. at least have been told by a few people its not worth doing. cant' really hire anyone unless it takes off and don't want to spend all my time restoring and such.
 
I would rather pass up Colorburst (which BTW only works with Epson media in this version) and buy a print profiling system instead. I use a $300 Spyder 3 Print, which produces great printing profiles with my Epson 9880 that are as spot-on as ICC profiles can be. Particularly on canvas I get much results from my own profiles that from those supplied by say Epson or Breathing Color or Fredrix. I takes about an hour or less to run a high precision profile, once the test "target print" is dry.

You don't need the latest greatest computer, but with those big printers you can run into some pretty big files. A lot of my panoramic landscapes are in the 3gb+ range. So what helps a lot there is plenty of RAM. If you already have a computer in the 2gHz range, just max it out with RAM, 4gb for a 32 bit operating system, or as much as 16gb for a 64 bit system. The most useful thing that does is make it faster to edit large files, the second most useful thing is that you will minimize long delays between telling the printer to begin printing and the time it actually does so. Before buying RAM either check you motherboard manual or go online to the manufacturer's site to check how much RAM your motherboard can take, and what type. But even modest, low RAM computers will finally get those prints pumped out, it will just take longer.
 
Puppiesonacid said:
10,000??? wow. thats a bit more than i was thinking.

do you think it is well worth doing for that kind of price?

with the 9800 and a pretty good scanner i was thinking more along the lines of 5 or 6 thousand with ink and paper. does the computer really need to be that good or expensive? im not doing touch ups or anything. at least have been told by a few people its not worth doing. cant' really hire anyone unless it takes off and don't want to spend all my time restoring and such.
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Printer $5500
Photoshop $700 (you could probably get by with Photoshop Elements for a lot less)
Computer with quality monitor $1000 (a cheap proper monitor alone is going to be closer $1000 by itself)
Monitor calibrator $180
Scanner $500
Roll of photo paper $185
Roll of Canvas $180-250
Roll of matte paper $115
One set of inks come with it but you will need to budget a 2nd set pretty quickly since it takes quite a bit of ink to "charge" the printer.
There are 11 cartages @ $135 each for the mid size carts or $1485.

So yea, I think the 10K number is realistic.
 
what is a monitor calibrator? never heard of those. i can guess what it does. and i can get a large 22 in lcd monitor for about 130. not high quality i guess. im not trying to match colors so much.

this is seeming like more of a pain than it might be worth. esp with the economy the way it is.
 
As with so many things if you do it for money's sake you will probably lose your money and wish you never got into it. If you do it becuase you love it, your passion will translate to your customers and it will be a proffitable investment both financially and personally proffitable.
 
FWIW printers sometimes come on the market at huge reductions, particularly when a new model is about to be released. I bought a brand new 9880 last year as the 9900 was being introduced for just a little over $3000, and I recall that Canon cleared out its original 44" models for a little over $2000. So keep your eyes open, miracles do happen.

One slight cash flow advantage of the 9880 over the 9900 is that cartridges are smaller but also cheaper. So the trauma of having a few cartridges needing replacement at the same time is less intimidating to the checkbook. No savings, just slightly more frequent but less crippling cash flow crises.

But FrameMakers hit the nail with that shopping list. I'm pretty sure that if Epson or whatever was the only manufacturer of ink & media, they would just give away printers to get you hooked.

And yeah, get a good $1000+ monitor (and puck) you just gotta have it. You also need the $100 SpectraviewII calibration software to got with it. My middle-aged NEC 2690WUXi is my best friend and I don't hold its one dead pixel against it at all, most of the time.

Sure takes a lotta gitchy-goo to make a few darn prints, doesn't it? The kid down the street will do it for $5.

I use the "Gretag EyeOne Display 2" puck. Works great. And with the Spectraview II software calibration is completely automatic, time for a cup of coffee. And it is able to reduce the LCD monitors inherent dazzling brightness down a point that makes it useful for printing purposes, and it does that without compromising the monitors color gamut...kind of a important point, excess brightness makes it difficult to calibrate many LCD monitors for printing. But it's a few years old now, must be better out there.
 
As to making money off of it, I have printed close to $500 worth of work in the last 2 days. Of this I know there will be at least another $1000 worth of framing for a few of the jobs that will get framed and then there is the 2 gallery wraps in that group for another $200 worth of bars & stretching.
 
Puppiesonacid said:
and i can get a large 22 in lcd monitor for about 130. not high quality i guess.
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Uhoh.

OK, stand facing the monitor with a steady image displayed. Now move your head up and down a few inches. Notice how the brightness changes quite a bit depending on subtle changes in eye position. That is NOT GOOD for making prints! And every single one of the LCD's I looked at down at BestBuy the other day showed this problem, also every laptop. And people started looking at me funny.

You can waste a lot of expensive media making too light or too dark prints because your eye was not in the right position! In this sense, any crummy CRT screen is better than the low end LCD's. Oh you probably come to terms with it by always displaying a reference image on the screen next to the image your working on, just get your eye to whatever height makes the reference image look good, then look at the working image, but that's so uncool!
 
I am using the epson 7800 printer for all my and customer printing needs, as well as photoshop. I have bought an apple _imac_ computer and am wondering if anyone has had any experience with i-photo, the photo editor that comes with the computer?
Comments?
Thank you.
Uta
Island Art Gallery
Kennedy Studios
Custom Framing
 
Here is a PERFECT reason why a visit to the PMA/PPFA show could be quite beneficial.

If I read this thread correctly, we are looking at a potential investment of $10K?

At the show, not only will the printer vendors be there, but also software, ink, paper, and calibration people with classes to boot.

Just having a business card from one or two people in tech support from a vendor could make the entire trip worthwhile.

You can fly from the East Coast to LAX or Orange County for $59 round trip on Southwest, partner with someone to share a hotel room for $50 night and the all in one pass for $199 deadline has been extended.
 
Rob, where is this $59 round trip offer at?
 
I'm with Rob. And don't forget suppliers often have show specials that can save you big money. Also you should look into 3rd party inks. You can save 30% or more with no quality difference.
 
Unless you're sure you have a heavy market now...why take the risk?

Do something like DigitalCustom...that offers restoration (that you won't have to do) and printing.

Give it a try to see what your market is like first...without a lot of investment.

If it sells like gangbusters you can always go back and buy the equipment.
 
ive tried those bargain inks on my small printer that i use to print orders. it never knows what to read and keeps saying weird random error messages. never happens with the regular ink. to me thats worth the extra money.

plus it never knows how much ink is left and you end up throwing out a lot of the cheaper inks. of course that is a small epson printer
 
Puppiesonacid said:
ive tried those bargain inks on my small printer that i use to print orders. it never knows what to read and keeps saying weird random error messages. never happens with the regular ink. to me thats worth the extra money.

plus it never knows how much ink is left and you end up throwing out a lot of the cheaper inks. of course that is a small epson printer
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I completely destroyed my Epson C88+ office printer with bargain inks. After about 3 months of that stuff, it clogged on all heads and stayed that way. Duh! Replaced with an HP LaserJet P1006 printer, b&w only but about 1/10 the "ink" cost and 1/20 the hassle!
 
This quote from an article in PC World "Ron Katz, a patent attorney with the firm Manatt, Phelps, & Phillips who has litigated on behalf of aftermarket vendors, says that "mere use of a third-party cartridge does not void the warranty if the cartridge does not cause the damage.

Tricia Judge, executive director of the International Imaging Technology Council, an association of aftermarket vendors, says that if a generic cartridge does damage your printer, reputable third-party ink sellers will repair the printer. However, none of the generic-ink sellers' warranties for the products we tested addressed this situation."

So, Jeff's almost right. The printer manufacturers can't void your warranty, but they're also not responsible for repairs--the ink sellers are. (And good luck getting them to do it....)
 
I have tried some 3rd party inks years ago. I could never get the inks to profile worth a darn. Wasted more paper & ink trying to get decent prints. With my current set of printers, I have only used epson inks and have never had an issue other then the one between the chair & the monitor.
 
I print daily on my Epson 9800 and the ink cost is a very minute fraction of the prices I charge. My printing prices for Enhanced Matte are as follows:

11x17 $ 9.95
16x24 $14.95
20x30 $24.95
24x36 $29.95

I offer professional artists a 20% discount off of these prices. I only print "Ready to Print Files". I am not interested in being a color lab or printing the high end. I'd rather put a gun to my head and end it that way than go broke trying to compete with the professional labs here. The professional lab that I mount for daily charges $39.95 for a 16x20 canvas mounted to masonite and coated with a UV inhibitor. They include various PhotoShop improvements to every file. All of my printing is either framed or matted in glassy bags.
 
If you have not done any printing on "pro" printers and papers using image optimization software yet I suggest getting a refurbished Epson 3800 which can be had for little more than the ink cartridges cost and learning to use it by playing with it.
The real beauty of the "pro" printers and Photoshop is to make the prints look the way you want and so you will need to learn to use PS or similar to get the most out of these printers.
As far as getting 3rd party inks ...........why? The new Epson inks are made for specific purposes and they are so good they can't be beaten on these Pro printers, not to mention all the paper profiles will have to be redone with custom profiles for these inks. You can also get custom profiles for all the papers specifically for your printer but I find most of the "canned" profiles are pretty good.
Remember that a 32 bit computer can only utilize 2Gb of RAM anyways unless you make the 3 Gb "switch" and so anymore than 4Gb is a waste of money. You will need a high end LCD monitor made for gaming or photo editing and then properly calibrate it for what you intend to do. You need to adjust the brightness down from the recommended, otherwise your prints will look dark, I find that 100 cd/m2 is a very close match.
If you aren't familiar with all these things already I feel that the large investment you're making will not pay off for you.
 
Well, you're getting a lot of good advice. I can recommend Epson wide format printers and Colorburst rip. I've had several and now I'm using a 9800 with no problems. I remember several years ago having non-stop problems trying to print without the RIP. One limitation with Colorburst (and maybe all RIPs) is that you can't use color profiles supplied by Epson or the paper manufacturer, you have to use color profiles designed for Colorburst. CB has profiles for any paper I've needed to print, so it hasn't been a problem, but if you plan to print on canvas from some obscure paper company, you might want to check first.

Yes, good advice on color calibrating your monitor. You will need to do that periodically.

Since there are so many wide format folks on here, I've always wondered about ink costs with an Epson wide format printer. I use the big cartridges, I figure they're cheaper per ml. I wonder what the per sq. ft. ink cost would be for 100% coverage.

Thanks,

Bob
 
Sturgis said:
Since there are so many wide format folks on here, I've always wondered about ink costs with an Epson wide format printer. I use the big cartridges, I figure they're cheaper per ml. I wonder what the per sq. ft. ink cost would be for 100% coverage.

Thanks,

Bob
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This seems to be a huge piece of the printing puzzle. I hear per sq/ft estimates all over the map and everything depends on everything. Every media consumes different quantities of ink. I have gone to almost exclusively Enhanced Matte with my 9800. More than 2 years and thousands of prints in the middle size range (18x24 to 24x30 average). I use out of the box Epson profiles and print with nothing but Epson supplies. I print in PhotoShop and let the printer determine the resolution which is the default setting in the control panel. Most likely over 5,000 prints to date and my total supply cost is right at 75 cents per sq/ft. I switch my paper rolls to best fit the image and print one at a time.

Printing on photo paper consumes huge quantities of ink. The ink stacks and that is why you get the 3 dimensional look as you view it at an angle in the light. My best guess is that photo paper can consume as much as 5 times the ink that the Enhanced Matte consumes. Canvas also consumes huge quantities of ink since it is filling the variations in the texture of the canvas. Rag papers also consume huge quantities of ink since they are absorbed into the paper.
 
Actually I think the 98's put down one of their heaviest inkloads with Enhanced Matte, which is what gives EHM it's gutsier-than-most-matte-papers look. I accidentally printed a matte canvas with the Epson Enhanced Matte profile and it was very dark and heavy looking compared to the canvas profile I normally use.

When I was printing lots of Luster on a 7800 I calculated something just under $1 per square foot over the long term, and that includes the $200+ worth of ink that is thrown away with every maintenance tank change, but does not try to factor in discarded proofs. That also seems to be the case with matte canvas on the 9880.
 
One thing I discoverd very early on was that if you leave the printer turned on all of the time it does not consume the several dollars of ink at start up. I also don't let it perform the nozzle checks every time it wants. Usually about every tenth. 28 months and only one maintenance tank.

I don't run test prints because I only offer printing of ready to print files. The only time a customer was not totally thrilled with the print was one that told me the photo was shot with a 2.3 MP camera and needed a 24x36. The only photo the family had with everyone including his dead mother. Somewhat pixelated but totally acceptable for framing given the circumstances.

Do you have Photo Black loaded in it. I started with Photo Black since it can be used on all papers but it was way too thick on all the media I was using except photo papers. I have used the Enhanced Matte profile on the NEW MATTE CANVAS and it was perfect. The old Piezzo Pro Matte Canvas had too many fibers in it that soaked the ink in dark areas. I use straight out of the box preloaded Epson Profiles. I do not manipulate the files and print from PhotoShop.
 
Jeff has done some printing for me and I can tell you that to my admittedly inexperienced eye, they look great! I am not looking for color precision, but enlarged attention getting images. He has printed all the new interior signs and A board images in the shop and we get daily compliments on his work. He makes it sound simple, but I'm sure there is more to learn than meets the eye. I would listen to his advice if I were just getting started in this endeavor.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
I have used the Enhanced Matte profile on the NEW MATTE CANVAS and it was perfect. The old Piezzo Pro Matte Canvas had too many fibers in it that soaked the ink in dark areas.
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Um according to Epson their the exact same product with a new name.

"All sizes of both Piezo Pro Matte Canvas as well as PremierArt Water Resistant Canvas will be discontinued immediately, and will no longer be available. Also these same products (no physical changes) will now be available under the new names: Premium Canvas Matte and Premium Canvas Satin

These new Premium Canvas media are physically identical in every way with the current canvas media. Only the names, labels and part numbers are changed to reflect a more consistent naming convention. Since there is no physical change to these products - any driver, ICC Profile, workflow, or finishing process currently employed to produce prints with either of these two media can remain unchanged."

Jeff Rodier said:
My best guess is that photo paper can consume as much as 5 times the ink that the Enhanced Matte consumes.
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I might have agreed until I just burned through a roll of Ilford Gallery Gold Silk (theres a mouthfull) on the absolute highest resolution and the micro weave set on "super" and after burning through that entire roll the black and yellow went down one bar on 220 ml carts. I was happy with how much ink it used.
 
Sturgis said:
One limitation with Colorburst (and maybe all RIPs) is that you can't use color profiles supplied by Epson or the paper manufacturer, you have to use color profiles designed for Colorburst.
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Qimage lets you select any ICC profile. I wouldn't get CB just because of that limitation.
 
Jay H said:
Um according to Epson their the exact same product with a new name.
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They changed the product before changing the name. If you had printed on the Piezzo Pro Matte 12 months ago and then bought it today you would know the difference. I have the end of a 44" roll of the old product and a new 24" roll and there is nobody in the world that would say these 2 products are anywhere near the same. When I purchased the new roll I was warned by the vendor that there was a huge change so they wouldn't get it back. Huge improvement over the old loose fibers in the Piezzo Pro. They added a gloss version at the time of the change.
 
You can't buy it today(under that name) but it is the only canvas I have used for the about the last two years.
 
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