I have been practicing making my own floater frames from some premade moulding purchased from larson juhl. Most of my frames are coming out pretty ok with very obvious room for improvement but for their use now they are ok. I keep running into a constant issue of having the frame open up towards the back of the miter when I put the pieces together. When doing my other frames I encountered the same issue but the gaps in the openings were not as wide and it only happened on one corner of all the pieces. Some light putty application and a little stain did a good job of hiding the error and the pieces have held up well since then. I am currently working on a 51" x 41" floater frame (The largest size I have done yet) and keep having the same issue but on all 4 corners and these gaps are too big to just fill with putty. Does anyone know why or how this occurs? Is there a solution that I can make and help me long term when making these pieces that will allow me to not go back and have to sand and putty the openings when this occurs? I have included some images below that show the gaps on all corners.
Floating Frames keep Opening in the back
- Thread starter RR FRAMES
- Start date
Bruce Papier
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2011
- Posts
- 1,424
What are you cutting the moulding with? Sometimes tall, thin mouldings like floaters will flex or move as they are being cut. You have to hold them very tightly to make sure they don't move. This type of thing also happens frequently if v-nails are put in too close to the back of the moulding, but I don't know if you used v-nails. It looks like you're using glue and a band clamp.
What is the function of the 2 pieces of hardboard/Masonite® at each corner? Are you attempting to install a panel of same sort into this frame at the same time as you are jointing the frame?
If this is the case the bands are constrained by the inserted panel such that there is no compression at the top of the unsupported frame(sight face of the frame). There does not appear to be any nail(s) in the corners, at the other end or otherwise. SOP in picture framing is to join with some sort of mechanical fastener with the corner under compression. The art panel is then attached/inserted after the frame corners have had time to dry/set. IE: it's a 2 step process.
To continue using strap clamps you might want to use a wider strap with a single small nail(s) at the top/bottom or other fastener(Ex: V-nail) in each corner.
If this is the case the bands are constrained by the inserted panel such that there is no compression at the top of the unsupported frame(sight face of the frame). There does not appear to be any nail(s) in the corners, at the other end or otherwise. SOP in picture framing is to join with some sort of mechanical fastener with the corner under compression. The art panel is then attached/inserted after the frame corners have had time to dry/set. IE: it's a 2 step process.
To continue using strap clamps you might want to use a wider strap with a single small nail(s) at the top/bottom or other fastener(Ex: V-nail) in each corner.
Last edited:
I am cutting the moulding with a miter saw then bringing it to a miter guillotine to ensure a clean and perfect miter. I clamp the moulding when cutting on the guillotine but not on the initial cut on the miter cut. These images I took as I tried dry fitting the pieces with the band clamp. I saw these gaps were there already and decided to seek advice before I glue them and v-nail them.
I put the canvas into the frame just to see if it fit correctly and am using those pieces as spacers to ensure I have the proper amount of float all around. It was just a test before joining the frame altogether to see if the pieces were at the proper length but even without the spacers and canvas in the frame the gaps are still there at each corner.
I usually glue the pieces altogether and the band clamp them and let them dry for about an hour before putting some v-nails into the joints while still having the band clamps all around the piece. I have never used a mechanical fastener to secure the bottom of the piece. Do you have an example or video demonstrating this process?
A V-nail is a mechanical fastener as is a finish nail/brad. V-nails and brads are installed while the glue in the joint is still wet to hold it together while it dries. This sequence is basic woodworking joinery 101.
Ah ok. Yeah that is usually what I do. But there is still that gap towards the back of the piece. How can I prevent that or get rid of it in this piece?
One thing to do is to recalibrate your miter guillotine with a good machinist triangle or square to verify that the 45° cuts are accurate as well as the 90° of the back stop to the bed of the guillotine. Also check for warpage/twisting of the moulding and that the wood is truly square as well. Use a clamp to hold the moulding while trimming to avoid rolling of the stock as it cuts.
Loose fit the cut rails and verify that they join up properly on a flat table.
Loose fit the cut rails and verify that they join up properly on a flat table.
Ok I will make sure to do that. Thank you for the advice.
L-Floats can be very tricky. One of the problems stems from the fact that the Side and Base are not always at 90°. It is imperative that the SIDE is perfectly vertical when mitering, Assuming your machine has tall enough fences, the best way to ensure this is to clamp it to the Fence, NOT the table.
None of the above makes any difference if you are not cutting a true 45.000° angle. Visit https://vermonthardwoods.com/picture-framing/how-to-cut-picture-frame-joints/ How to Cut Picture Frame Joints | Vermont Hardwoods for tips to check and adjust Morso and similar guillotine choppers.
None of the above makes any difference if you are not cutting a true 45.000° angle. Visit https://vermonthardwoods.com/picture-framing/how-to-cut-picture-frame-joints/ How to Cut Picture Frame Joints | Vermont Hardwoods for tips to check and adjust Morso and similar guillotine choppers.
David, That is a great resource for chopper users.
Fortunately, Jyden choppers have plenty of access for chip removal without having to build the platform drawer. My trusty old Jyden was already used when I bought it 48 years ago, and it still performs beautifully. I keep it cleaned and lubed.
(This one is not mine- just a picture to show the open front.)
Rick
Fortunately, Jyden choppers have plenty of access for chip removal without having to build the platform drawer. My trusty old Jyden was already used when I bought it 48 years ago, and it still performs beautifully. I keep it cleaned and lubed.
Rick
Rick, We probably already discussed this, but I have a Jyden that my dad purchased used in 1974-75.
Wrapped, The first suspect in a frame cut of a Morso or Jyden is the sharpness of the blades, especially with hardwoods. From what I can see of the joints you have cut, the miter isn't exact.
Wrapped, The first suspect in a frame cut of a Morso or Jyden is the sharpness of the blades, especially with hardwoods. From what I can see of the joints you have cut, the miter isn't exact.
I have been looking into morso cutters recently after seeing your recommendations and was curious as to how well they make the cut on L-Shaped premade moulding like the ones I am using. All the tutorials I have seen show them making the cuts with moulding that barely has any rise. Also I would be cutting into cherry and maple and am curious if these struggle with these harder woods?
David, That is a great resource for chopper users.
Fortunately, Jyden choppers have plenty of access for chip removal without having to build the platform drawer. My trusty old Jyden was already used when I bought it 48 years ago, and it still performs beautifully. I keep it cleaned and lubed.
View attachment 52032 (This one is not mine- just a picture to show the open front.)
Yes, it's a struggle to cut hardwood floaters with a chopper. But the results are FANTASTIC when well done...
What kind of Guillotine cutter are you currently using to make your finish cuts?
I was using a rockler miter guillotine.
Yeah, that will likely not work very well for hardwood L-Float frames... At the very least you will probably need to clamp the leg to the fence to ensure alignment. You'd probably be better off with a (good quality) miter SANDER, such as the ITW/AMP one. Yes, quite a bit more expensive than the Rockler trimmer. OTOH, you can almost certainly find a used Morso or Jyden for the same price as the sander... If you have room for it, that's what I'd get. FYI I will shortly have one for sale, though it would be tricky to get much further away than we are to you...
I am currently looking at a couple morso's nearby. Out of these two which would probably work best or be more reliable for the price?
1st Option: https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/tls/d/la-verne-morso-guillotine-molding-mitre/7846738578.html Morso guillotine- molding mitre trimmer - tools - by owner - sale - craigslist
2nd Option: https://aimequipmentcompany.com/products/used-morso-f-chopper-used-item-ue-042625g/ Morso F Chopper (Used) Item # UE-042625G
1st Option: https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/tls/d/la-verne-morso-guillotine-molding-mitre/7846738578.html Morso guillotine- molding mitre trimmer - tools - by owner - sale - craigslist
2nd Option: https://aimequipmentcompany.com/products/used-morso-f-chopper-used-item-ue-042625g/ Morso F Chopper (Used) Item # UE-042625G
The first one looks more like a Jyden, or maybe a really, really early Morso. We've had ones from the '50s that look like the second one. Unless the price is outrageous I'd go for the known certain Morso. Every single part is current and replaceable. It should be under $1000 though, JMO.
After reading the first listing and looking a little closer we have decided to go for the Morso. It is luckily under $1000 like you said. I am planning to pick it up tomorrow morning and run some cuts with it. Thanks for the advice!
The open front and asymmetric treadle on #1 says Jyden. It was made by Morso, but the parts are not necessarily interchangeable, in particular the knives.
The Jyden looks refurbished, and the token that is in the space between the fence adjustments is missing. The serial number should be just above that. That serial number will be proof of it being a Jyden or not.
When inspecting the used Morso, advance the head to the final cut position, and see if it has any wiggle room to and away from the fence. This is reparable with shims, but it is also a bargaining chip.
The Jyden looks refurbished, and the token that is in the space between the fence adjustments is missing. The serial number should be just above that. That serial number will be proof of it being a Jyden or not.
When inspecting the used Morso, advance the head to the final cut position, and see if it has any wiggle room to and away from the fence. This is reparable with shims, but it is also a bargaining chip.
Au contraire, mon frere.
The Morso has all the adjustments any man/woman could ever need, unless it's so worn out, it's not possible anymore (yes, we did that once...). OTOH, yes - you could use it as a bargaining chip
See https://vermonthardwoods.com/picture-framing/how-to-cut-picture-frame-joints/ How to Cut Picture Frame Joints | Vermont Hardwoods for some tips on getting your Morso into shape and cutting some perfect joints.
Also , please feel free to reach out to me with any questions. IMO the Morso is the best option for cutting solid hardwoods (unless they are simply too large to be accommodated).
The Craigslist item looks extra clean; however, there is no comment in the listing regarding extra knives. New OEM blades are not cheap.
Standard Blades For Morso Chopper
High Quality Standard Blades for the Morso Foot Operated Moulding Chopper. Manufactured These are the original Morso Blades manufactured In Denmark
888mfgcorp.com
Update on Morso Chopper: Picked up the chopper (only $800 btw) today and tried some test cuts on it. Spent two hours trying different layouts and cutting styles but kept getting horrific blowouts. On one of my final tests I was getting a nice miter but for the final cut the blade would not go through the final 1/8" that connected the pieces. I shimmed a 1/8" piece of wood between the moulding and the morso fence and it worked. The piece was cut almost perfectly with a nice smooth miter and when I dry fit them it was a great difference from before.
A close to perfect corner with a tiny little opening. Honestly I can use a little dab of putty to cover it up but I will instead tinker with the angles and make sure both fences are at a perfect 45 as well as making sure the blades are lined up since they seem a little off. Still a definite improvement from before and a clear step in the right direction if I want to produce these at a larger scale than now.
Had a long day today so will try to make a full frame tomorrow but for now I am extremely happy with the results.
Thank you to everyone here for their advice.
A close to perfect corner with a tiny little opening. Honestly I can use a little dab of putty to cover it up but I will instead tinker with the angles and make sure both fences are at a perfect 45 as well as making sure the blades are lined up since they seem a little off. Still a definite improvement from before and a clear step in the right direction if I want to produce these at a larger scale than now.
Had a long day today so will try to make a full frame tomorrow but for now I am extremely happy with the results.
Thank you to everyone here for their advice.
Great news.
Don't forget to get the blades resharpened not knowing when they were last done. Also have them ONLY HOLLOW GROUND vs flat ground.
Don't forget to get the blades resharpened not knowing when they were last done. Also have them ONLY HOLLOW GROUND vs flat ground.
Please review https://vermonthardwoods.com/picture-framing/how-to-cut-picture-frame-joints/ How to Cut Picture Frame Joints | Vermont Hardwoods
The Morso is a fantastic machine for the right type of moulding. And while it's not rocket surgery to operate, there are a few things that need to be properly set up and learned to get the best results.