Finished Corner Frames

Create a Post
K

Kellar and Klein

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Nov 6, 2005
Posts
11
Loc
Phila, Pa
The reason finished corner frames are are important is becauuse they are furniture for your walls. Molding is four sticks nailed together, and your customers won't appreciate it. Finished corner frames are splined and joined then sanded and finished after they are made. It is critical that finished corner frames are sold because they all look complete, appealing to every eye, and timeless.
 
K & K, we've had a discussion about this before.

You are right about the beauty and timelessness of such frames. It brings to mind the phrase 'Diamonds are forever.'.

There are some who swear that cheap imported ready mades, even those made from foam, have finished corners and are equal to those you wrote about.

We need a better name for fine hand made frames.

Surely we could come up with something, what do you think?
 
Cornel? Did you sell them your script?
 
For several reasons I don’t sell closed corners. To tell you the truth, its on my radar screen but still a good distance off. Perhaps now would be a good time for you to make a believer out of me.

I firmly believe that items with extremely high value and quality need no explanation. For example, its obvious to anybody with a drivers license that Corvette is simply the best car on the road. It’s beautiful, fast, and made in Kentucky. I’ll bet there is much less money spent to market this car than say the Neon. The quality sells itself most of the time.

Your suggestion is that closed corners are such a quality product that everybody should have them in their home. Then why are there so many framers out there who have yet to recover the cost for the samples several years after they have bought them? If these have such value and the quality and beauty sell themselves, then why doesn’t every framesmith beg shops to take their free samples (no this isn’t a free sample thread)? I mean you only stand to benefit from having such a valuable product in every frame shop.

It’s obvious to me that you have a great deal of appreciation for the details of this product. Excitement is infectious. However I’m not so excited. Until you convince the person on the business side of the design counter to be equally excited, the battle is over before it starts.

I feel like I really need these things. After all regular old crappy good for nothing moulding with stupid ole joined corners makes up 100% of my sales. I didn’t realize that customers didn’t appreciate it.
 
Jay,

What's a Corvette? I guess I must not have a drivers license. BTW I agree with K&K.

Pat :D (a former Porsche owner currently driving a Touareg)
 
I have some customers that buy only closed corner frames. When I go into their homes, it truly is a 'night and day' experience when walking throughout their homes. Closed corner frames are SO classy. And I noticed the difference long before I got into the framing business.

Granted, the orders don't come flying at me, but they do come!
 
The reason finished corner frames are important is that they are furniture for your walls.

There, fixed that for you.

/grammar Nazi
//Sister, back me up on this

But seriously, why this thread? What is the context, and why did you post that out of the blue?

Then why are there so many framers out there who have yet to recover the cost for the samples several years after they have bought them?
Click to expand...
Isn't it obvious, Jay? There are only about four real framers in the US. The rest of us are just talentless hacks who wouldn't know real framing if it bit us on the behind. And our customers are all dim-witted Phillistines. That's why.

But sriously, I'm all for closed-corner frames. They're the Tiffany of frames, but those of us who live in the real world realize that not many buy Tiffany, even if they do appreciate the beauty and craftsmanship. But if I have a customer who's willing to pay for it, I'll sure as heck sell it to her.
 
If finished corner makers helped create a market for their product we retailers could sell more of them.

I don't have the means or opportunity to get one of your frames into the hands of a style maker. We've joked here about Martha Stewart but if she or Tom from Queer Eye for the Straight Guy said on television that a finished corner frame is the only kind to have we'd all be selling them hand over fist.

Jimmy Choo or Manolo Blahnik shoes don't do a better job of keeping your feet from touching sidewalk. Kate Spade handbags don't hold a wallet, keys, and cellphone in a way that substantially different from my $20 bag from Target. Some marketing/PR people got them onto Sex in the City, or into the Oscar night gift bags and shazam!

If you could get finished corner frames to be a task on the Apprentice we'd all be golden!

It may seem like a wise-acre answer, but that's not how I intend it. There was an interesting piece on the radio (NPR) not long ago in which the speaker explained that at its inception advertising existed to sell us things we needed. Print ads were rich with copy. The earliest television ads were six minutes long each. Post WWII, consumers in developed nations for the most part have everything they truly needed so advertising's job became to create demand that didn't previously exist. To vie for our disposable income we are besieged by hundreds of advertising images and sound bites every single day. How do I persuade a client that a $400 frame will be a better use of her dollars than an iPod?

When I suggest to a client that a fine handmade frame will last for years and be something they can pass on to their kids (I don't say it to everyone...) they say "Pfft. My kids won't care about this." And their kids won't if they don't.

Believe me, I'm not trying not to sell finished corners.
 
I would suggest y'all go onto a website like Rhonda Friedman (sp?) or Abe Munn and check them out. they are sometimes priced along the lines of Roma or Arquati and some of the manufacturers will give a very good deal or incentive to at least show the corners.

We show them, and occassionally sell them but they are for the person who, as the ad says, "demands the very best"

Still, an interesting niche market
 
Amazingly, it isn't the 50 somethings that are buying the lion share of CCs.... it's the late 20 and 30 somethings that have great jobs, are just starting to feather their own nests, and want quality that will match or out do the leather furniture they bought at Crate & Barrel.

These are the one who you tell "this will out last your furniture, three cars, your hardwood floor, all of your appliances, and maybe a couple of houses.. and you will simpley dust it down, and it will glow and look as beautiful when you have all grey hair, as it does new, maybe better."

Also.. and I love this analogy... chop is like a chevy or VW... where a CC is like a Ferrari; lovingly handmade and unique.
 
High quality framing implies a special clientele, which is at the same time affluent and educated, and those are rare costumers. Most mortals would frame things of sentimental value that will not resist in front of other family members’ evaluation leave alone enduring art criteria.
Where educated and affluent people INVEST in properly framed art, most other people would simply DECORATE their homes a good number of times during their entire life. For temporary goals temporary solutions are being suitable and the entire frame industry is living off those short terms, fashionable, fast changing wall decorating esthetics of ours.
Most framers are in service of our needs to (re)decorate homes and offices and can’t wait for remodeling opportunities. Closed corner frames are not furniture for walls for so four sticks frames are. Closed corner frames are walls for art with which they are meant to sail in time together. When such a frame gets seriously damaged, every effort to save and restore it is due before looking out for proper replacement.
To me jewel and adornment, champagne and beer, mistress and wife, love and sex, Ferrari and Dodge, closed corner frames and four sticks frames are clearly as many associations of two different things though, if regarded through a blind eye, they appear o be just a bunch of synonyms.
 
PLUS when all is said and done, having about 12-20 closed corner frames displayed prominently in the store elevates you from just another frame shop to one of distinction, at least in the customer's eye. And, as I said, you won't sell them to everyone, but O boy, when you do!!!
 
Mike,

I wasn't aware of Rhonda's web site. One year ago, I was quite surprised to learn from her that she was not having a web site.
If in the mean time she's got one, please let us have her web site's address, as her frames are well deserving to be known and easily referred from TG's archives.
 
Well,maybe I'm wrong, 'cause it's been awhile since I visited, but I was fairly certain she had one. Met her in atlanta awhile back; very very helpful and offered, as I said, a package to get the newbie started.

Maybe I was thinking of someone else??? Dunno. Old age creeps in
 
“High quality framing implies a special clientele, which is at the same time affluent and educated, and those are rare costumers.”

That could be one of the most pompous, pretentious, and flat out wrong things I have ever read on here. And I've read some doozies.

When the heck did income level ever have anything to do with education? When did education level ever have anything to do with taste or a love for finer things? What a load of crap.

So far support for these items are "cause they are really good". Now there is a ringing endorsement.

I would really like to see the end of this attitude that Dave alluded to. Closed corner customers (or the framers that sell them) are not one bit smarter, richer, prettier, nicer, refined, or better than those who see them for the overpriced hunks of wood they are. One could easily suggest the opposite is true.

I intend to respect what you sale. I would actually like to set myself up into a situation where it makes up a good portion of my business. But that respect or lack of it will always be a two way street starting right now!
 
Jay, I often agree with you, but on at least one point in the previous point, I don't.

Art appreciation and the associated care and display, which for this discussion CC frames is related to, IS a function of education. It may or may not be a function of formal education, but education none the less. Usually it's a funciton of "higher-ed private liberal arts schools." I am not trying to be snobby, and I am not saying others don't have taste or might have an appreciation of these elements, but most people acquire art appreciate either from parents or schooling. Understanding that should help us target market these thigns.
 
Those who frequent museums and other institutions
that have antique frames on their collections are
the most likely to have seen the finished corners
that were common on frames from before the 20th
Century.


Hugh
 
That's a broad statement that is mostly true Hugh; but I think it does a great disservice to a very powerful period in the American experience of art, Applied Arts, and architecture.
I am of course refering to the Arts & Crafts, Art Neuvue, and Deco period as well as the outgrown of the Southwest art known as Early California and it's accompaning Plein Aire frames, or Mexican re-interpritations of the Louie and Baroque frames.

Stickley style, or Greene & Greene "Craftsman" were outgrowths of the popular furniture lines.

All of which extended and influenced decor well into the 1930s & 1940s.
 
Jay

Of course I am right. Art education alone does not make anybody into an art collector, much less a CC frames buyer, but perhaps into a frequent museum /library visitor.
Only concomitently educated & affluent people with true love for art would spend money to acquire, frame, preserve and proudly display their personal art collecion.
Well educated but poor(er) people don't buy art, CC frames or books. They would if they could. Plain and simple.
 
Or books. What a prize you are.

Cliff and Hugh. I think that stands to reason that those with an acute knowledge and appreciation of art would be the best candidates for CC frames. That has to be a microscopic portion of those that cross our doors.

[ 12-02-2005, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Jay H ]
 
Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
That's a broad statement that is mostly true Hugh
Click to expand...
I don't find any facts in Hugh's statement.

I'm not sure what you're disputing.
 
Baer,
You can look at most historical frames the same way. Period frames usaly are reflective of the interior decorative styles of their time. The motifs used to adorn the frames would be the same that would be used on the furniture that was made during that period. I think that the Craftsman and Art Neuveu periods had a more simplistic style that made it a little more obvious that they were extensions of they furniture counterparts.

THE DOWNFALL OF CLOSED CORNER FRAMES

I know all you business owners are watching your COG percentages. While the net monetary gain on the sale of a closed corner frame is much higher than on a cut and join frame you must also pay out a much higher sum to get this frame. Quite often the shipping alone will cost me $100 just to get a $1000 frame to me. Not to mention that you can't save money by buying in legnth LOL. That being said I sell as many closed corner frames as I can and urge my employees to do the same.
 
You've told me the reason you believe finished corner frames are important. Now would you kindly tell me the reason for your post? If it is an attempt at a sales campaign, I would suggest you work on your public relations skills.

Although finished corner frames are beautiful, they aren't within the typical consumers budget. Even custom framing (what you would call sticks and nails assembly) isn't within a lot of people's budget, and those people buy readymades from home decor and department stores. Education may have a lot to do with what people appreciate, but without a pocketbook deep enough, it doesn't really matter how smart you are. You just won't be able to afford to "aquire" what you like. I think that's why we poor educated folks go to museums and libraries instead of art auctions.

With that said, your second sentence is an unfounded opinion that I find very insulting to what I do as a labor of love and how I make my living. As far as your last sentence goes, I don't find anything critical about selling any type of frame...other than if I don't, I won't make my rent this month.

BTW, Welcome to the Grumble.

[ 12-02-2005, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Mecianne ]
 
Mecianne,

You summed it up for me.

Was there a reason to this original post or did the author just want to call attention to his product and somewhat insult what almost all of us make a living doing?
 
Mecianne,
Do you carry any Roma moulding? If so you are charging your clients in some cases higher prices than moderately priced closed corner frames. I sold a Roma the other day that retailed for $80 per foot. I have at least 20 closed corner frames on my wall the retail for less than that. Its realy not until you start selling 22kt gold frames in sizes over one inch or with carving that you break the $60 per foot mark in most cases. I know that sounds like alot but I bet most of you have plenty of frames on your wall in that price point.

I do agree with you though that the original post here was a bit ambiguos regarding the reason for it. Would be better if a question was asked or something. Its not like we don't know the value of our own product for Pete's sake.
 
Meciane, Stshof, Joe,

K&K is just as proud of his product as you are of yours and maybe a bit more so. I don't think he meant to hurt anybody just the way you didn't mean to hurt somebody by praising one of your cute designs. When it comes to it, we act much like parents talking of their kids without really paying attention to what other parents have to say of theirs.

Interestingly to note how fast grumblers would find themselves hostilely opposed when it comes to closed corner frames. Those frames must be really special, different and defining if able to stir such passions and complexes.

What I don't quite understand is why some of us react to this subject as if they've been pronounced professional failures for not being able to sell CC's. Everybody is in business to make money in a given area. If your area doesn't support high end framing you're doing the right thing selling chops. Why take it so bitterly and not give Caesar what belongs to him?
 
My reaction to the subject is that I would love to sell them.

My reaction to being looked down on as some inferior framer with stupid oafs as customers is that I’m not tolerating any longer.
 
No, Brian, I do not carry Roma moulding. The highest retail per foot moulding I carry is around $40. I know the arguement..."if you don't show it, you don't sell it." I also know my market & my budget. I honestly can't afford samples of true closed corner frames. All I have to show customers now are catalogues and brochures.

Cornel, I think there is nothing wrong with being proud of a product. And for the record, I have never sung my own praises over one of my "cute" designs. Also, I don't have any hostility towards closed corner frames. I don't see from where in my post you got that.

Cornel's words:

"What I don't quite understand is why some of us react to this subject as if they've been pronounced professional failures for not being able to sell CC's. Everybody is in business to make money in a given area. If your area doesn't support high end framing you're doing the right thing selling chops. Why take it so bitterly and not give Caesar what belongs to him?"

I don't feel like a failure for not being able to sell closed corner frames. I wish I could sell just one per week. One a month. One a year. And I truly think it's wonderful for those that are in markets that support the consumption of these fine, hand-crafted products. But the pride I hear also comes with an insult that, no, I frankly don't appreciate. I am not going to get into a pi$$ing contest with you, because I would surely lose....at least where verbiage is concerned.
 
In the $40 range AMCI has a very nice line of hard wood splined corner frames. APF has very nice painted finish frames. Or you could carry Cornels line of photo frames that give you all the look of hand crafted custom made gilded frames without having to pay the "custom made" price($100-$150 retail last I looked). I'm not trying to say one type of frame or framer is better than the other. I'm just saying that you don't have to buy into the concept that closed corner frames are all $200 per foot. Or that you have to make a huge monetary investment to get some samples on your wall.
 
Originally posted by FramerDave:
The reason finished corner frames are important is that they are furniture for your walls.

There, fixed that for you.

/grammar Nazi
//Sister, back me up on this

But if I have a customer who's willing to pay for it, I'll sure as heck sell it to her.
Click to expand...
Got your back, FramerDave!
thumbsup.gif


Originally posted by Jay H:

Then why are there so many framers out there who have yet to recover the cost for the samples several years after they have bought them?
Click to expand...
Jay, I am not sure I followed you on the rest of your post, but the key here is to convince the supplier to provide you with free samples. My samples arrived in September and I have sold three frames. An average of one a month may not excite you, but at 36x48, 42x54, and 24x36, waiting for the right customers did not cost me a penny. Instead . . . cha-ching!
 
At least it made page two before the free samples came into the picture. I guess now is a good time to bow out before it gets ugly.
 
I was able to buy over $1200 worth of AMCI samples from a framer going out of business for $200. Then AMCI VERY graciously repaired a couple of chipped ones and traded in a couple of duplicates I had.

You can get samples at a reasonable cost if you shop around. I do not believe the "hand made samples" should come for free, but that's just me.
 
I can't get my customers to even touch them.
Click to expand...
I had the same experience for a while. Now, the only samples the customer can reach without walking around the counter (into "my space" -- aparently fearsome) is the closed corners. They pull them often. I've still only sold one. ;)

But, that one recouped all my sample cost. The next one's profitable! And, the display gives the shop a VERY nice look.

I did have to pull my metal frames out from under the counter and put them on a spinner at the other end of the counter so people weren't "scared off" by the "too fancy" look I'd apparently achieved.

This past year I went "down market" with more low cost box buying and more visible metal samples, and "up market" with a much richer closed corner display. I now get the comment that "you have everything" and customers feel like I MUST be able to fit their needs. Note, I don't sell many CC frames, but I think they are very important to have on display. (For me anyway)
 
Keep your samples Jerry. What you need is smarter customers. You need to quit running your ads on BET and HSN. You know those people can't even afford books. Get rid of those dropouts you have been selling there and get you some smart customers. The smart ones buy those frames by the dozen.
 
Thanks, we appreciate all the feed back on both corner samples and finished corner frames. I am sorry that anyone was insulted by my posting on cc frames; my 17 year old daughter told me to let her rewrite it & then post it(somethingwas lost in the translation).
When we first started our business, we used a branding iron to put K&K Phila, Pa.on our samples and our frames; the industry told us no,the illusion being that everything was produed in house. The same goes for displays. We complied and became your back room(very happily).
Some our best friends sell chops and lengths. How else can your provide a quality product in less than 24 hours?(we have done that on occaision) have agreat holiday season
 
Originally posted by Cliff Wilson:


You can get samples at a reasonable cost if you shop around. I do not believe the "hand made samples" should come for free, but that's just me.
Click to expand...
May I should clarify. I do not have many "handmade samples"; the ones I received came as part of the suppliers top sellers. I love freebies and beg a lot. ;)
 
Jay has it absolutely right. Finished corners will always have an audience.

And when a customer buys them, they will never settle for anything less.

It wouldn't hurt to show a customer the quality and look of a finished corner. Many will think they are expensive, then they look at the other stuff, and mostly will go back and order the finished corner.

Also, many will say, "you know, for a an extra XYZ amount of money more, I could be looking at a great frame for the rest of my life". And it is true.
 
Originally posted by jframe:
K & K, we've had a discussion about this before.

You are right about the beauty and timelessness of such frames. It brings to mind the phrase 'Diamonds are forever.'.
Click to expand...
Diamonds are surely forever, but what use to they provide in that sense? We can make synthetic diamonds now for everything that diamands are good for...When we start using diamonds to make everlasting computer parts the size of a dime that will never overheat-then I will see thier inherent value.

The reason I am using that arguement is in relationship to this:

No matter what we do in framing, we aren't TRULY and COMPLETELY preserving the work by framing it, so while finished corner frames are beautiful, they are still just decoration. Functional, yes, but intrinsically no better than the joined corner frames. I am not saying they are bad- as I sell, them myself, but I wouldn't say they are the end all be all of framing.

I like an audi for it's engine over a kia, and one is better because it's going to do more for me performance wise, but a gold plated audi and a regular paint job audi...what's the difference, really? Other than aesthetics or a false sense of worth? (assuming you still have the same parts/performance?)

I do understand the inherent value of something hand gilded and loved by a professional with time-tested techniques, and I am not downplaying that, but if every customer wanted that, my job would be really really boring. Not all sales call for that sort of exuberance/expense.

(The CCs that we do carry are reasonably priced, but the only customers that are ever interested in them are ones that frequent museums and many find that it is still too rich looking for thier decor)
 
Not all CCs are museum worthy. Some are just nice splined hardwoods, some are whitewashed boards, and some are spraypainted sticks that are dovetailed together.

So it is with a poor brush that the term Closed Corners are of higher quality..

Blown foam bloated Louie XVI 24x36 frames from Mexico with mirrors at Home Depot for $69.95, are still a CC frame.

Now the question would be: "Is it a Kia or an Audi"... neither one is a Masarati.
 
belinda,
With that sales pitch why would someone buy a closed dorner frame LOL. I think one of the biggesat selling points of CC frames is something you are forgeting. They are intrinsicaly better than a chop and join for one great reason. They are finished to your/your customers desired specifications. Theres no "gee I wish this came a little darker and in silver instead of gold" or "to bad we can rub down this gold so more of the red clay showed through". With 100 moulding profiles in 20 different finishes on your wall you are theoreticaly showing 2000 frame samples to your clients. Not to mention that if you develop a good relationship with your CC maker you can have just about anything made for your client.
 
Originally posted by brian..k:
Not to mention that if you develop a good relationship with your CC maker you can have just about anything made for your client.
Click to expand...
Belinda,

What Brian just told you is the absolute best asset a framer may dream of having (if truly in custom frame business). But are you able to see and appreciate that perspective?
It just occurred to me that closed into a corner framers may be as far away from regular custom framers as closed corner frames are from regular frames. Fortunately for them, the first don't even suspect that distance.
 
And if you have a GREAT relation with your CC maker, you can send them your ugly finished chops, and have them re-finish them into the beauty that they should have been.... with now closed corners.
thumbsup.gif
 
Create a Post
Back
Top