Face mounting questions

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stevens

stevens

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
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Well, I was surprised by the lack definitive information on face mounting at WCAF. Since we want to face mount photographs, cold rolling appears to be the way to go. Anyone do face mounting that can give suggestions on equipment, tips and technique?
In regard to the mounting substrate, someone said Peter Lik is using a poly carbonate that he is trying to get a patent for. What are some good sources for Lexan/Polycarbonate and do they make any with a UV coating (like conservation 99%)?
 
I dutifully visited 2 of the umpteen Peter Lik galleries in Vegas. The salesgirl at one said it was Lexan without my asking. I'm pretty sure she also said the print was sandwiched between two Lexan layers, which I assume means the back of the print is facemounted to another piece of Lexan.

BTW I noticed quite a few scratches, especially down at the bottom where the maids would try to wipe away dust. Peter uses bright spotlights to dazzle up the images to dayglow levels, and that sure does point up the scratches.

I have a pal who does a lot of facemount. His main trick is to include a lot of leader and trailer since those areas are very bubble prone. It takes a few inches especially at the start for the various stresses to sort themselves out. Other than that can't throw much light on the techniques. There's a high rate of failures and a single good dust mote will irreparably kill a piece. I noticed a short hair in the sky of one Peter's new tropical island images.

In the case of Lik UV resistance is kind of a moot question. The Fuji Crystal Archive paper he uses (or at least used to use) is coming up with very poor numbers on light fastness testing. Which makes that $129,000 last-of-edition piece I saw especially intriguing.

I can get Lexan from my local Piedmont Plastics warehouse, most plastic suppliers will carry it.

It's an interesting technique. I do a lot of big pieces for wholesale and I have been tempted to get into the technique because it's one of the cheapest production methods out there, especially in terms of the relatively small number of steps between print and final product. The only other stuff I would need to compete with Lik is a lot of $19/foot Roma Tabacchino, tons of 5" white and black liners, and a tolerance for the ugliest framing treatment on Earth.

There are quite a few facemounting videos on YouTube, it's worth a search.
 
We have been face mounting onto acrylic for a few years.

Where to start?

Cold mounting is best. The failure rate is minimum 10 -15% for a good operator.
You are working blind and cannot fix any stuff ups. NEVER NEVER offer to face mount any one off original work EVER!!

I know a couple of guys who are very experienced and this is their strongest advice.

If you stuff up be prepared to pay for a replacement of the image and the substrates etc. Not as profitable as it appears.

Notice that the reps etc only demonstrate on very small images. Looks easy then!!

Try it when you have an 1 metre x 1.5 metre image!

You must be very dust free - no trying to do it in the framing workshop.

The films are not holding well in longevity, IMO.
The whites are not staying white etc.

We do some work with Peter Lik and are familiar with some of their techniques.
They just sold a $1,000,000 image.

Any of these products will scratch easily.

I agree that you need a big leader and trailer. You need about 15 - 20 mm around the edges of the image for trimming.

It is almost impossible to use film products and not get dust, hairs, dirt, air bubbles, etc in the image. Be very careful of the type of images you try and facr mount. A "busy " image is best for newbies. plain black areas in the image are the nightmare to watch.
A Conservation Institute in Europe has apparently done tests on UV acrylic and stated that NONE were more than 90% UV. I will find out more about this soon.
 
I've done only a few, and it was at least 4 years ago, but I must agree with the previous comments.

Expect failures at first, there is definitely a learning curve.

Using a cold roller works fantastically.

You pretty much need a clean-room type environment. Dust is unforgiving and irreparable.

I actually had some success mounting to large pieces, about 30x40, of 1/4" tempered glass. It was a custom job and the customer provided the glass, but they turned out great. I'm sure most of them are done on Lexan though.
 
This is an anti-conservation technique. Which is fine, as long as the buyer understands. No one knows what the effect of the process will have on the photograph over time, and there is not at present a method for removing the photograph should it need conservation. And, when the plastic gets scratched, and the scratch is polished out, the image becomes distorted by the depression made by polishing.
Here at ICA we're working on a technique for mounting and framing these fashionably large photographs. We're getting there, but it ain't cheap, and it ain't easy.
 
That was the interesting thing about working with tempered glass. One piece did shift, but we were able to peel it and, with some deal of solvent and elbow grease, remove all of the adhesive so we could reuse the glass. Man were they heavy though. Obviously we had to replace the print, but the glass was saved!
 
This isn't the kind of business you can just add to your existing framing services like you can large format printing. An artist I work with has used GGE with 100% success. Unless you can do this right (positive pressure clean room, etc.), outsourcing would seem to be the way to go.
 
Lexan is a brand name that appplies to plastic sheets made of either acrylic or polycarbonate.

Face-mounting is a tedious process, best done is a 'clean room' environment, involving special adhesives and a cold-roller press.

As noted by others, a single speck of dust can ruin costly art and mounting materials. And when a perfect face-mount is achieved, it can be easily ruined by a single scratch. Sure, a minor abrasion or slight scratch can be polished out, but it is quite easy to damage the plastic, and not so easy to fix it. Polishing out a deep scratch always leaves a distorted surface finish, which would be very difficult to hide.
 
Jim Miller said:
Lexan is a brand name that appplies to plastic sheets made of either acrylic or polycarbonate.

Face-mounting is a tedious process, best done is a 'clean room' environment, involving special adhesives and a cold-roller press.

As noted by others, a single speck of dust can ruin costly art and mounting materials. And when a perfect face-mount is achieved, it can be easily ruined by a single scratch. Sure, a minor abrasion or slight scratch can be polished out, but it is quite easy to damage the plastic, and not so easy to fix it. Polishing out a deep scratch always leaves a distorted surface finish, which would be very difficult to hide.
Click to expand...


Jim,
So with Lexan being one of the two brand name options which is the highest quality one for facemounting.(Uv,clarity,scratch resistance.) I am looking at the acrylic offered by Harbor Sales. 1/4" $110.00 a sheet.
We are not planning on selling facemounts but demonstrating the process in our mounting workshops. Looking to buy several sheets but want to make sure I have the proper product. We have the tools and facility to cut these down from full sheet size so that is not an issue. If you could help with a brand name and supplier that would be great. Unless I am already on the right track.
Thanks in advance
Dan
 
Dan Berg said:
... Looking to buy several sheets but want to make sure I have the proper product. We have the tools and facility to cut these down from full sheet size so that is not an issue. If you could help with a brand name and supplier that would be great.
Click to expand...

Maybe an expert on face mounting (which I am not) could offer better advice on sheet types and brands, but I'm fairly sure that either polycarbonate or acrylic would work. Polycarbonate has an inherently harder surface, but I'd tend to use acrylic, because it is a more chemically stable plastic. My first choice would be Museum Optium Acrylic, which is treated for abrasion resistance, 98% UV filtering, and optically coated. If budget is a big issue, I'd at least use abrasion-resistant acrylic. But again, I'm no face mounting expert.
 
Should mention that there are at least two types of facemount adhesive tissue, including Optimount Ultra (from Seal) and Drytac Facemount UV.

In my limited experience was able to get good results mounting Epson Enhanced Matte paper prints to Acrylite-FF using Optimount, this with a very cheesy roller system. As far as getting the print mounted I think it only matters that both surfaces are smooth and clean. The sticky layer is very thin, I don't think a print with the slightest texture could be mounted successfully.

The bigger question is...what are the long term chemical reactions between glazing and ahesive and print. It's scary to think about.

Is there anybody here who can comment on Seal Optimount Ultra tissue, versus Drytac Facemount UV?
 
Actually, polycarbonate has a softer surface than acrylic and is more prone to scratching. Polycarbonate has higher impact strength, and therefore, is a good material for an exterior sign that may see severe weather. Acrylic has one of the very hardest surfaces of any thermoplastic.
 
mainesully said:
Actually, polycarbonate has a softer surface than acrylic and is more prone to scratching.
Click to expand...

So, better impact strength does not translate to better scratch resistance? Thanks for that information, Mainesully. If polycarbonate is softer and scratches more easily than acrylic, then the difference is probably moot, for practical purposes. That is, both types of plastic would scratch so easily that an accident could render a face-mounted image worthless in an instant.

If I were planning to face mount anything -- which I am not -- I'd at least use a UV filtering acrylic sheet treated for abrasion resistance, such as Acrylite OP-3-AR, and Museum Optium Acrylic would be the "wow" choice, visually.
 
Side question, but wasn't there speculation that the face mounting of several Gursky photographs caused accelerated fade? Did anyone ever come to a conclusion on that one way or the other, whether it was an inherently unstable c-print or the face mount was destructive?
 
more_so said:
I dutifully visited 2 of the umpteen Peter Lik galleries in Vegas. The salesgirl at one said it was Lexan without my asking. I'm pretty sure she also said the print was sandwiched between two Lexan layers, which I assume means the back of the print is facemounted to another piece of Lexan.

BTW I noticed quite a few scratches, especially down at the bottom where the maids would try to wipe away dust. Peter uses bright spotlights to dazzle up the images to dayglow levels, and that sure does point up the scratches.

I have a pal who does a lot of facemount. His main trick is to include a lot of leader and trailer since those areas are very bubble prone. It takes a few inches especially at the start for the various stresses to sort themselves out. Other than that can't throw much light on the techniques. There's a high rate of failures and a single good dust mote will irreparably kill a piece. I noticed a short hair in the sky of one Peter's new tropical island images.

In the case of Lik UV resistance is kind of a moot question. The Fuji Crystal Archive paper he uses (or at least used to use) is coming up with very poor numbers on light fastness testing. Which makes that $129,000 last-of-edition piece I saw especially intriguing.

I can get Lexan from my local Piedmont Plastics warehouse, most plastic suppliers will carry it.

It's an interesting technique. I do a lot of big pieces for wholesale and I have been tempted to get into the technique because it's one of the cheapest production methods out there, especially in terms of the relatively small number of steps between print and final product. The only other stuff I would need to compete with Lik is a lot of $19/foot Roma Tabacchino, tons of 5" white and black liners, and a tolerance for the ugliest framing treatment on Earth.

There are quite a few facemounting videos on YouTube, it's worth a search.
Click to expand...

I got basically the same info on Lik's process at his Rancho Mirage Gallery. Cold pressed between two 1/8" sheets of Lexan. I agree about his frames and cheesy black linen liners, way too tacky for what he sells the prints for.
 
I am very new to this field. I am in New York metro area. I like to get into facemounting on acrylics. Which machines should I look into buying? My budget is in the $7k to $8k. Thank you all in advance.
 
Jim Miller said:
If I were planning to face mount anything -- which I am not -- I'd at least use a UV filtering acrylic sheet treated for abrasion resistance, such as Acrylite OP-3-AR, and Museum Optium Acrylic would be the "wow" choice, visually.
Click to expand...


actually using Museum Optium would defeat the purpose as it disappears almost, you want to see the acrylic, if that makes sense
 
I am not expert either, but there are some flatbed printers now that can print directly onto acrylic.
Is that an option?
 
FramerInTraining said:
I am very new to this field. I am in New York metro area. I like to get into facemounting on acrylics. Which machines should I look into buying? My budget is in the $7k to $8k. Thank you all in advance.
Click to expand...

You will need a cold roll laminator and face mount film adhesive. There is a learning curve to the process and you really need a clean room for best results. Check with Drytac, D&K Group, Coda and Printmount for equipment. There is a lot of information I even have a few articles on my website designsinkart.com/library.htm or maybe on PFM's website. Go at least 40" wide. Hot rollers cannot be used for face mounting.
Chris Paschke
 
Thank you Chris. I went to WCAF show and nobody had good demos and good information.
Have you used any particular machine and film that you'd recommend?
Thank you in advance.

DesignsInk said:
You will need a cold roll laminator and face mount film adhesive. There is a learning curve to the process and you really need a clean room for best results. Check with Drytac, D&K Group, Coda and Printmount for equipment. There is a lot of information I even have a few articles on my website designsinkart.com/library.htm or maybe on PFM's website. Go at least 40" wide. Hot rollers cannot be used for face mounting.
Chris Paschke
Click to expand...
 
FramerInTraining said:
Thank you Chris. I went to WCAF show and nobody had good demos and good information.
Have you used any particular machine and film that you'd recommend?
Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...

Seal have machines and you want Optically clear film. Seal sell this also.
You can also try Neschen America.

If you do this, you MUST have a golden rule that you ONLY mount prints that can be replaced. no Öne off'originals.

You must decide if you want to pay for the replacement images when you stuff up, or if you tell the client that they must be prepared to get a replacement if required. I cannot stress this highly enough!!

And you will stuff up - no matter how good you are at this. you will get issues with the mount film that appear halfway through processing an image. You cannot stop if this happens, you just have to deal with the failure. You may be able to save the acrylic but you can NEVER save the print.

I speak from 11 years of experience with this.
 
FramerInTraining said:
Thank you Chris. I went to WCAF show and nobody had good demos and good information. Have you used any particular machine and film that you'd recommend? Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...

They generally wouldn't be demonstrating this to framers, it is from the photo and sign industry and beyond the reach of traditional framing equipment. No cold rollers, no face mounting. I did teach a class that talked about it though.

The websites of the manufacturers I listed will have the adhesive information for you. It's pretty straight forward.
http://www.dkgroup.com/igsbase/igstemplate.cfm/SRC=DB/SRCN=/GnavID=10/SnavID=37
http://www.drytac.com/mounting-adhesives/facemount.html

Select the cold roller of your own choosing.
Just to get you started here are "Pros and Cons" when selecting a roller laminator (from my articles and book):
PROS
 Cold P-S mounts and laminates heat-sensitive images safely
 Capable of mounting to foam and mat board, GatorFoam, PVC, acrylic, glass, aluminum composite, metal, MDF and other hardboards
 P-S face mounts to back of poly(methyl methylacetate), like Plexiglas
 Available up to 80" wide to accommodate any wide format digital
 Manual or motorized for hands-free operation
 Wider range of adhesives and graphics possibilities for growth
CONS
 Print mounting limited to width of rollers and films
 Cold P-S cannot encapsulate thermal polyester film
 Thermal films cannot face mount
 Requires very clean area, exposed films are sensitive to contamination
 Higher electrical usage for heated RL, requires 220 volt, three-wire hookup
 Fewer creative applications available

You'll need to also consider, price, service after the sale, and general customer service.
Chris Paschke
 
TruLife 6-18-14-WEB pg1.jpg
 
My company just recently purchased a GFP 663TH Laminator with a top heat roller to begin producing our own facemounted prints and cut out the middleman. This forum has been extremely helpful in navigating all the trouble shooting and issues we've been having. We were initially having trouble with dust and debris getting in the prints but were able to mitigate it with some deep cleanings of our workshop as well as having anti static wire and raised humidity within the room. Our issue now is when we stick the print to the acrylic the top and side edges of the facemount come out perfectly but the bottom edge (final section to come out of the laminator) keeps having around 1-4 air bubbles all near the center of the edge. We just don't understand how this keeps occurring specifically in this certain section. We have also tried using a heat gun but seems like once the print is on the acrylic the air bubbles do not want to move anywhere. We then decide to pop the bubbles but then it leaves the front of the facemount looking greasy and smudgy where the air bubbles used to be almost as if the adhesive is not wanting to stick properly anymore. If anyone has any suggestions on how to deal with this, any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
Usally that means that you have to much pressure on your roller. It is causing the roller to bow up in the middle and not give even pressure across the print. We do these in-house also but they are a massive pain! and require a lot of trial and error. But ease off the roller pressure a bit and it should help. Sometimes using a hair dryer on the back and then trying to push the air bubbles out can help.
Eric
 
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