Experienced or not?

HarryGMCPF

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After reading the "2005 Employee Wages" thread I am left with a question for all of you.

Would you rather hire an experienced framer at a higher rate, or a newby at a lower rate?

I think this could be fun......
thumbsup.gif


I will hold my answer and reasons until later.
 

Mike Labbe

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I think the answer really depends on the situation, and if you have enough time to train someone new.

We would probably go for a responsible (framing) newbie. They're likely to come with less baggage and fewer bad (framing) habits.

Next month's poll will be about employees, wages, benefits, etc. I can add this question to the poll, too, if you'd like.

Mike
 

Ron Eggers

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I'd rather hire a person with life experience who knows how to take responsibility, deal with people and set priorities - regardless of framing experience. A sense of design (taste) and some basic math skills are a huge plus.

Anybody can learn to cut mats and fit frames.
 
G

Gumbogirl

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Wow. I am happy to say I have been grumbling enough that a lot of these topics are vewy, vewy familiar.

I know this has been discussed before, so please share your views, Harry!

Good poll idea, Mike.
 

Cliff Wilson

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I haven't hired a framer --- yet, but in my past life I did a lot of hiring. Depending on the job, there are traits required that I don't believe can be learned. For example, a "front counter" design person must naturally deal well with people and be able to handle people questioning and "not liking" their designs.

In most cases "technical skills" can be learned and the less baggage they come with the better. Having said that, sometimes you need certain experiences because of timing requirements. As with most things, it's situational.
 

HarryGMCPF

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GG,
Love your screan name by the way. Its fun to imagine what people look like based on their screan names. Don't even want to know, it's just fun to imagine...sorry I digress... seing as you asked so nicely here you go...

Give me the NEWBY everytime. I would rather spend the time training a new person than having to break old habbits. As for Mike's comment, "it depends upon the situation" I would still rather the NEWBY. I can have them adding value to the operations of the shop in no time. Let me teach them all MY bad habbits. At least I'll know what to expect. I would agree with Ron as well, I want the right person with the right attitude, but for me the "life" experience is not as important.

Ideally I would prefer a new hire would be a young art student, maybe just headed to college. Someone that loves art and working with their hands. Appreciates quality and is proud of what they do. (The ability to read a ruler beyond 1/2" would be a bonus.) Ultimately, I am looking for an apprentice. (I wonder if Tanna is going to be available. I want the commitment and excitement from someone who wants to learn the trade. I beleive you are more likely to find that excitement in someone new.

I have seen alot of realy bad framers that have TONS of experience and think they rock. No thanks. Besides, there is only room for one ego in this shop and guess who's that is. :D

But alas, hiring is always a crap shoot even dispite your greatest efforts to find the perfect candidate.
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Well there you go... the long winded version of the answer "Newby."

Harry
 

elsa

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As a person who maybe looking for a framing job in the near future, you all make me want to cry with frustration. Most of you would rather hire a newbie. Gee thanks...my years of experiance mean nothing?
Let's see in 5 years, I could count on one hand how many times I have called in sick. I have been late to work once. I am great with customers, thats my favorite thing to do, work with them, and design something they really like.
And yes I bite my tongue, when they chose something that I don't really care for, after all it's not hanging on my wall and I am not paying for it. I upsell on every order to the best of my ability--with tact.
Do I have bad framing habits?--oh probably! but how much time does it take to tell me so and ask me to do it your way?
I AM a compulsive/obsessive framer--I learned that in a recent thread--lol! (actually I always knew I was one!)
So if you had two candidates for a framing postion would you hire a newbie over experiance just because you could do it at a lower rate?
Maybe that is the real question here, the bottom line?

Elsa

Elsa
 

Baer Charlton

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:D

I'm gonna have to lean a little towards Ron.... but then, all that life experience can bring a can of bad worms along with it to.....
fire.gif


I want the table to stay neat... (no I'm anything BUT a clean freak)

I want the ATG guns to go back where they are handy, the Awl and MY side cutters go in the first hole on the rack not in the 8th and 11th.

If and Elsa can learn to do it MY WAY in the first week, she may have a job.

Everywhere I have worked, I always learned the way THEY do it.

Except now. I kick and scream about doing the things that are LAZY... not that they are "wrong" or do harm but just are neat and professional.... like scabbing the back mat or mounting cattywhompus on a undersized mount board.
fire.gif
 

framanista

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Originally posted by Harry:
... I want the commitment and excitement from someone who wants to learn the trade. I beleive you are more likely to find that excitement in someone new...
Its interesting that you think someone who knows nothing about the industry will be more excited about it than someone who knows something. What does that say about the industry?

And in looking for someone who’s committed you're going to disqualify those who've put in years learning the trade?
shrug.gif
 

HarryGMCPF

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Elsa,
Don't be dishartened. :( I never said I wouldn't hire someone with experience. I'm simply outlining what I might be looking for in the ideal employee should I ever make enough money to actually afford one.

Re-reading what I wrote before, I can see how I may have given the wrong impression. I am not too foolish to realize that there are plenty of experienced people that will and do make fabulous employees. I know of a few very experienced folks I would hire if I could. But, back to my initial point... If I were to go searching for someone new, I would initialy focus my search on someone without experience, unless of course the right person came along. Just because they have experience they would not be automaticaly discounted.

Hey look, I have been doing this longer than I haven't at this point and I don't anyone to discredit my experiences either. I just want to bring more great and talented people into this bussiness to keep it growing.

You asked, if it was about the money and the answer is, NO. It is about investing time, energy, and to some extent money, into the right person. I am thinking beyond just filling the need for help. I am looking for people to help insure that this fabulous little profession lives on and does not go the way of the local Pharmacy. (Sorry. That's the Dad in me talking.)

And also as mentioned, it may be foolish of me to not seek experienced people initialy, but hey, that's the way I see it. That's the great thing about opinions. And you know what they say about opinions don't you?

Baer, Thanks. ;)

Harry
 

CAframer

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Either way, experienced or not, if anyone knows of a framer, or someone with the right potential to become a framer, who is looking for a part time framing position have them give me a call. We are located in sunny Tustin, CA. We have an interesting mix of jobs, and our previous employees say that's it's a good place to work.

Thanks
Andrew
(714) 573-0040
 

Lori Drugan

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ELSA !!! Take heart, not everybody wants a newbie. I just had an employ retire and now it is me and one other full time gal. We probably will be just fine , but when the time comes it will DEFINATELY be a person with experience. It only takes a week or two to acclimate someone new to a shop, and like you said, "tell me if I'm doing something wrong". I'll take that anyday. As far as the wages go ...You get you pay for!

Lori
 

Ron Eggers

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What I said, or what I MEANT to say was that, if I had to choose, I'd choose life experience over framing experience.

I'd rather not choose at all and, out of the 26 employees I had over the years, I remember two or three who had both.
 

Ron Eggers

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Elsa, I just read on another thread that you have a 20-year-old son. Sounds like you have framing experience AND life experience. You'll be a great hire for somebody.

I myself have a 20-year-old son. He's ****-bent on repeating all the mistakes that I made and thinking up some new ones.
 

sheritex

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Oh its not just limited to 20 year olds...my son is 22....gosh those terrible 2's sure have lasted a long time. But back to the original thread...having done a lot of hiring in another venue....give me someone with experience that will do the job the way its suppose to be done, or be like me and be a quick learner
 

gemsmom

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As a former shop owner, I would have loved to have had someone like Elsa walk in my door. Just maybe, if she had, I would still be a shop owner.

If I wanted to get a regular job as a framer again, I think my experience might work against me. As it is right now, my experience is working for me. Since I am only interested in consulting or filling in part-time, I can get paid reasonably well for my skills and knowledge. I think if a shop owner had to pay me the same wages as a full-time employee, plus benefits, their pocketbook would take over.
 

geperry

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I had a tough time with this one... had to make a choice between hiring a seasoned vet, or a newbie with no framing experience. It came down to who I felt more comfortable with...... and hired the newbie. She's been great. A quick learner, very meticulous (sp?), and doesn't just wait around for me to tell her what to do. If she arrives at the shop early, she opens up, cleans and just starts working. If she finishes a job and I'm helping a customer, she finds something that needs to be done and does it. She has great work ethics, design sense, and never complains.
I feel bad about not hiring the experienced framer because I'm sure framing jobs are few and far between...........perhaps I'll consider her if and when I need another employee.
 

Valerian

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Vancouver, BC (Canada)
During the time I worked as a custom dept. manager for a large framing company for 12 years, I had to hire *many* people. I learned very quickly to hire someone with only a year or two of experience. Why?

Newby #1 shot a pneumatic brad into his neck while checking to see why "it wouldn't go". Newby #2 tried to lift up 5 lites of glass at the same time without gloves on, succeeded in lifting only the outer lites, and carving his palms out with the inner 3. Not only did newby #3 drymount the tissue on top of the oversize poster, he cut three pieces of tissue to do it because he wanted to use up scrap.

Pro #1 didn't perforate the laminate because he had never used anything but pre-perf before (nice bubbles). Pro #2 used so many staples & framers' points on wood frames that it often took 15 mins to 1/2 hour to take the frame apart when dust got trapped. Pro #3 refused to use production stops on an order of 125 single mats all the same size because "she didn't trust them". Pro #4 kept using Framers Tape II on limited editions and originals because "he always had".

If you hire someone with only a year or two of experience, you get no bad habits, and a scratch of framing knowledge that helps with the little details (especially safety details). They are still trainable, don't cost a fortune, yet aren't completely in the dark - and most already know they want to stick with framing, so you don't have to worry about hiring someone new in 6 months because it "just wasn't their cup of tea".

I once hired a woman who worked in a mirror & glass shop because her experience was "close enough", and she worked out beautifully. Hiring someone to replace me at this company proved a lot harder. I *had* to find a "pro". Just imagine all the bad habits I came across. It took 6 months after I left for them to find someone reasonably up to the task, and just over a year later they still call me periodically to ask me how to do something. In fact one of my former customers hunted me down through the phone book because she didn't want my replacement doing a certain job for her. This is not bragging by any means, it's just really hard to find experienced folks that 1.) know their stuff and 2.) won't break the bank.
 
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