Exactly who are the " industry leaders"?

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
Founding Member
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Bob Carter mentioned on another thread, ( it's at the top of the page, be sure to read it if you haven't already) That certain industry leaders consider The Grumble a waste of time. I'm just wondering who these people actually are?

I'm also wondering what YOU think of The Grumble. Lurkers, feel free to jump in on this one.

John
 
I think The Grumble is an excellent vehicle for information sharing and a great "community." I would advise these industry leaders they are foolish. Rather than dismiss The Grumble, they should actively participate. They don't have to get warped, but seems to me they could earn some good will by sharing expertise in some of the technical discussions.
 
John, There are people that contribute and learn on this forum that are "Industry Leaders". Some people find the Grumble of value, some don't, not just "Industry Leaders". Singling out those that think the Grumble is worth something seems to me to be a lot more beneficial to participants and lurkers alike.
 
John

I suspect that the “Industry Leaders” who have not embraced the Grumble or the other framing message boards are those who like to deliver there message in a “safe” environment……like in a class at a show or at a PPFA Chapter meeting or through a very controlled media like a trade journal…this way if they mess up they are exposed to virtually one way only exposure and very little challenge….I think you will also find that the message they have to deliver is very limited and defined…Bob Carter is a great example of one who will push the boat out and is not afraid to take a bit of flack he helps us to develop new thinking and attitudes…..…...….if these “Industry Leaders” were true leaders they would be embracing new technology not deriding it…they are to technology and communication what the framers who still uses masking tape are to the picture framing industry ………I think you will find that they say the likes of the Grumble is a waste of time or that it is for wingers…or something on those lines….or like one of the “Industry Leaders” from the UK said to me in person and on email that the name “Grumble” delivered a negative message (he likes to use words like “lion”)…then he came on the Grumble and used it for the start of the launch of one of his products into the US……..he is a user not a leader…
 
Hi John-I meant that remark, not as a condemnation of them, but rather as a reaffirmation of this group.

I liken the Grumble to being a gold miner. You have to go through a lot of silt in hopes of finding a nugget. And when you do, it can be a doozie.

Most of these are friends and I really respect them a lot. They Are truly bright and gifted operators that just don't think it is wise use of their time to participate like you do or I do.

The Ford tragedy is another example of why I spend time here.

For the record, most do lurk a lot.

I, on the other hand, don't mind the 30-45 minutes a day I spend here. I would never have had the chance to meet people like you or Wally or Jim Miller or so many others that make it worthwhile.

Are there plenty that really are a waste of effort? Sure, and I'm sure many think the same about me. And you won't get an argument from me.

But, when I do find a nugget, it makes it all worthwhile.

I am finding the same to be true with My PPFA involvement. I know, John, you are not a good joiner. For many years I felt PPFA was pretty irrelevant to me and my business. Most players I thought were pretty much lightweights.

Once I got involved, I am finding that tehre are some truly good people doing good work. Sometimes you have to knock a little rust off, but all in all, I am learning that my non-invovement was my loss.

And so it is with the Grumble....
 
I believe Dermot just defined himself as an industry leader. As do others that selflessly throw their 2 cents in from time to time. Combined we guys (and girls) with all of our years of experience give back more than the so-called "Industry Leaders" do and we do it for no charge. I think my 30 years in the industry is the dues that I paid to belong to this club and I like the company that we keep here on the grumble. BTW, I don't think there has ever been a problem addressed on this forum that collectively we couldn't answer. As a matter of fact, a lot of times I don't answer a question because someone or several others answer, and I believe, give a terrific response that doesn't need to be repeated. If the "Industry Leaders" decided to participate, they would be welcomed with open arms but if they don't, that's OK too. I think that secretly alot of them do lurk but don't participate because they don't have any better answers than we do.

For the record, I think Framer is a giant in this industry for having the vision to start this thing called the grumble. Think where we'd be without it.
 
OK, I am going to start a new thread. You guys have answered my question, but you have brought up a new one.

John
 
I consider the Grumble a great source for information. As a one person shop I use the Grumble to bounce ideas off and ask for help.
On more than one occasion they have helped me survive.
 
Regardless of whether they choose to participate publicly or privately I am just glad to know they are here to offer advice and help. I wouldn't still be in business if I hadn't found this forum and so many people willing to offer advice and support. I'm sure everyone has their own reasons as to why they don't publicly participate.
 
The site is great!! As a one person framer it allows me to mix with other framers and when I need help or have a question I get the help I asked for. Thank God for the Grumble!!!
 
I’m going to eat humble pie here…..my above post was driven by frustration….I feel that what I posted above, in general is quite harsh…….I think anyone who has the interest of the Framing Industry at heart is a leader……I just wish the quite ones would drop in now and again and share …..it’s very frustrating for someone like me to hear that such and such did this or said this and not be able to dig a bit further or get it first hand……when someone shares a topic on the G and if something is not very clear we can question the topic…..and generally others will jump in and a very clear picture emerges….

If I were in business in the US I would be taking in two or three trade shows a year and taking more of the education courses and I would be attending my local PPFA chapter EVERY time it meet….this is not a luxury I have in Ireland for example I’m the only framer in Ireland who is a member of the PPFA…. the time (mostly) and expense of travelling to the US more than every year or to is prohibitive……I gain most of my framing knowledge from the G and from one other fellow Grumbler…….thanks to everyone who so robustly shares on the Grumble…….
 
While I think there can be no denieing the Value that TFG and Framer have paid to the industry ,there are many who do not actively particpate here or maybe on any other forum that could and should be considered as INDUSTRY CONTRIBUTORS.
The title "Industry Leader" might better be applied to those who not only share their IDEAS but bring new and interesting concepts to the industry.To that end I think any and ALL who share here,on HH, PPFA ,FACTS in Class Rooms and just by networking are a valuable industry asset.
I am very pleased to see Bob Carters last 5-6 Bullets (paragraphs).I think many here and on other forums and sources see themselves as the "CORRECTING FORCE" when in truth we all are in the same boat ,we're just approaching it from a different position,and the industry is much better when we share between Groups.
There are many names that will fit "INDUSTRY LEADER" and fortunately a lot of them particiapte here but those who don't are still INDUSTRY LEAREDS and everyone who networks here and everywhere is an "INDUSTRY CONTRIBUTOR". (If I am allowed to Frankenthread this post and coin another phrase)
Charles BUDDY Drago CPF ®
DBA Needles and Knots
Chalmette,La.70043
 
As a person who enjoys framing and started late in life, I find the Grumble to be of great value. I have posted questions in the past and have always received answers. I enjoy the positive and the negative postings and have made reading The Grumble a once a day activity. I guess I could care less about those that knock or don't participate in the Grumble. As long as there are framers that willing offer advice based on their experience and there are those who benefit by that information, The Grumble will continue and be a positive in the framing life of many.

Wally
 
I can understand TFG is not to everyone's liking but to summarily dismiss it as "a waste of time" is just wrong.
I learn something here everytime I visit.


Industry leaders are the ones that are pursuing new ideas and techniques and sharing that knowledge with others. That's my definition anyway.

Some of the leaders are better known because they share knowledge by writing for our trade magazines and teach seminars. Some share the knowledge they have in other ways. One of those ways is here on The Grumble.
Thanks to Framer for keeping this forum open for us to share and to all that participate.
 
Instead of focusing on who are those leaders who "dare" think TG is a waste of time, and before we concentrate on the "positive" and dismiss their criticism, let’s learn WHY some LEADERS' opinion is so bluntly negative with respect to TG. Their stature oblige us pay attention and consider their take on each issue.

I tell you that much: learning, for instance, that LJ is one such leader is not going to derail your buying patterns an iota. You will continue to admire their product. I bet that not much of a riot would take place if LJ, Roma and United shared same negative opinion on TG. Quite the contrary, many would follow and begin doubting TG's merits as well.

Let's for a change focus on the negative and list our personal unflattering observations. Let's guess our industry leaders' dissatisfaction with TG. Right now I am sure that we compare apples and plums. Our personal motivation in participating to TG (I suspect it has to do with professional confidence and personal solitude, to say the least) is not matching our leaders' views and goals, but we too may come up with an impressive list of ours.
If we can't afford such a severe scrutiny (nice people like to pretend everything is just fine with factoring in our lowest common denominator), we are better off begging Bob to tell us the truth because he's not the person to record and dissipate information without first challenging it. I trust him with knowing a good bit of industry leaders' reason to label TG a pure "waste of time", but I am also afraid he's not going to enjoy helping us with this one.
Well, who’s got the guts to head dive in first?
Anything less than that would be a ..."waste of time" for we all know who "the industry leaders" really are, no question about it.


PS: why do I have a feeling that this is the end of our "enthusiastic, endless debate"? Anyway, it's much easier and less relevant to ask who are they instead of answering why are they saying what they do.

[ 05-26-2004, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: American Choice ]
 
I ran into a framer at a meeting in Atlanta that I would consider an industry leader - though most of you would never have heard of her.

Knowing I am an active Grumbler (maybe she lurks - I don't know) she asked me about TG's appeal. She was uncomfortable with the easy public access and with the anonymity of many of the participants.

This is the part I found interesting. When I mentioned this conversation to some other active Grumblers, many of them seemed to imply that she must be a person of loose morals, poor character and minimal intelligence.

I don't understand why we're so offended by those who choose not to participate here.
 
I thought I was done, but I'm not.

Framer would be the first to tell you that The Grumble is first and foremost meant to be fun. It's a hobby for him as it is for <strike>most</strike> all of the participants.

We can tell ourselves that it is an essential business tool but - if we are honest - we will admit that the reason we spend more time on TG than we do on the PPFA Hitchhiker (for those that belong to both) is that The Grumble is fun.

To suggest that everyone should find it as much fun as we do is like suggesting I should go deer hunting just because so many thousands of Wisconsinites find that very entertaining.

None of this is meant to minimize the value of the idea-, information-, and opinion-sharing here but, if that's what it's really all about, Hitchhiker will serve your needs very nicely.

[ 05-26-2004, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
 
I think "lurker" is an ugly and unfortunate term. It seems to imply some evil intent on the part of those who are probably just exercising more restraint and self-control than I am capable of.
 
I was recently given a "heads up" as to who actually is lurking. I wonder how many of these non-participating "leaders" reads this forum religiously? I know of one! I get the impression that they don't participate because they value everybody’s honesty and don't want to disrupt the honesty flow by participating. I don't know or care what their "official" stance is about the grumble. The fact that there are huge companies that learns from the grumble makes me think that certainly I can too, regardless of what said unidentified “leader” thinks.

Because there isn’t any names attached to a blind statement like “certain industry leaders consider The Grumble a waste of time”, I tend to just dismiss it just I am going to dismiss this unknown substance in my coffee (thanks McDonalds). I’ll just throw it away and forget about it.
 
Exerpted from American Choice:

Our personal motivation in participating to TG (I suspect it has to do with professional confidence and personal solitude, to say the least)

Well, I don't know what draws anyone else to the Grumble, but I am here for the money Framer sends me to participate!! (Thanks Bill.) :cool:
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What would we accomplish by making out a list of those who certain people consider "industry leaders"? And, to what end, should we attempt to identify so called "lurkers"?

You can very easily look at the directory lists of posts and see who posts and who doesn't. That proves nothing other than there are those who are not here to up their post count or make some kind of impression on anyone else (that is very badly worded but is meant as a general comparison and not to demean anyone in particular unless it is myself.).

I consider it rude to attempt to label or discriminate amongst us as to who is "leading" and who is in that horrid group of "slackers".

C'mon people, we are all here for some reason or another but who's business is it why any of us do or do not actively participate??

I don't recall Bill laying down a set of rules or conditions for "membership" to this forum so let's just let well enough alone and get on with the business of helping those with problems, laughing with those that need some humor in their lives, we can weep for those in circumstances such as Bob's friend, and generally try to get along with each other without challenging the "right" of somebody to be here.

Framerguy
 
Guys-I wish I had never said my comment. These comments were made in jest to me, mch like I'm sure some of Ron's friends might poke a little fun at his prolific posting.

These guys are genuine in their committment to the trade and have many, many stories of helping those that ask.

I chose to make a general statement of why I do participate; not an indictment against those that don't.

They really do participate; they choose to not openly post (frequently, anyway). Mentioning names would have only drawn attention to them(and I never anticipated the outcry)when I was trying to affirm why I do what I do.

Their comments were made in jest to a friend and I feel badly that they might be perceived as less than they are.

Nothing could be further from the truth and some of them might be less inclined to be as candid next time we meet. Then the biggest loser will be me.

Talk about unintended consequences
 
Tom : I think you hit it square on the head.

"What would we accomplish by making out a list of those who certain people consider "industry leaders"? And, to what end, should we attempt to identify so called "lurkers"?

You can very easily look at the directory lists of posts and see who posts and who doesn't. That proves nothing other than there are those who are not here to up their post count or make some kind of impression on anyone else \.). "

Why different people choose different methods of accomplishing a given point is so unimportant that I can't understand why we bother to wonder about it. As to who is a leader and who isn't ,I guess that will vary with the individual you are asking and why. So you probably will get as many answers as you ask the question.
My point is do we contribute by networking ? I can't see how we can't if we are honestly trying to reach the best solotion to a INDUSTRY problem. Who came up with it first and where and if they have exclusivity seems so childish to me.
But Ron's point is worth repeating .If you are having "FUN" or you are made to feel welcomed and comfortable you are more likely to benefite more.But I have learned a lot in some of the most Technically boreing lectures I have ever attended. I guess it all depends on what I/You want to get out of the presentation ,regaurdless of who or how it is made.However if you start with a preconcived idea that the Instructor or Forum is a bunch of pompus know it alls who are looking down their noses there really isn't much hope ,no matter what REPUTATION and CREDENTIALS they have.
But as Tom pointed out ( if I may paraphrase ) if you come here or anywhere for shareing what differance does it make if there are LEADERS present and if some choose to be part of the silent minority. Look at all the CONTRIBUTORS you have to draw from.
I once said that the knowledge that some sliently Browse (LURK ,I agree Ron that's an ugly word) can be a real asset. You know they are there and you can send messages while not directly adressing them. Also you must be saying something very interseting ,otherwise why do they "WASTE THEIR TIME" LURKING despite what may have been said even in jest?
Charles BUDDY Drago CPF®
DBA Needles and Knots
Chalmette,La.70043
 
Bob's comments are completely valid. There are at least half a dozen industry leaders who rarely post here, but monitor regularly. On occasion, most of them respond to individuals privately, when they can offer help or advice.

Their silence here should not be taken as disdain, or even disinterest. These people are masters when it comes to managing their time, and -- dare I say it -- they use theirs better than most of us use ours. That kind of discipline is evident throughout their successes, just as a lack of discipline is evident in most of our failings.

It takes about half an hour a day to monitor the most important topics. But to read everything and respond to several would take them hours every day -- especially if their advice were requested often. They won't commit those hours to general conversation.

As Grumble participants, most of the leaders would be magnets for controversy. They don't want to become easy targets, and you know some of them would. Maybe they're turned off by the prospect of getting embroiled in debates & having to defend their opinions.

In a way, The Grumble is like a bunch of friends meeting at a coffee shop. We all have a good time, and benefit from the knowledge we share here. When one of the leaders drops in for a visit, let's welcome him/her graciously.

Maybe they would drop in more often if we make it clear that we value their presence as friends.
 
I’m appalled at my first post on this thread……I really don’t know what came over me…..I guess I just opened my mouth without putting my brain into action.

I’m truly sorry for any offence I caused.

Very
 
I don't see what the big deal is, everyone has an outlet and/or source of information, and not everyone thinks the Grumble is the Bees Knees!
I truly feel sorry for Bob and the way the simple comment has been misconstrued and misunderstood.
 
And I am sure that Bob realizes this, Lance. His molehill is but one of many that have been elevated into sand mountains in the past. Most of those of us who are targets from time to time don't allow the few that don't have the clarity of mind to bother us. Gosh, there would be bloodshed in every forum on the Grumble if all of the participants took seriously everything that was said about them.

As Dermot admitted, sometimes we respond before taking our brains out of "Park". I have done the same thing and the only solution, after realizing that you can't pronounce 3 syllable words because your foot is sticking in your mouth, is to go on and get over it.

As Jim Miller said, "As Grumble participants, most of the leaders would be magnets for controversy. They don't want to become easy targets, and you know some of them would. Maybe they're turned off by the prospect of getting embroiled in debates & having to defend their opinions.", I suspect that is one of the reasons that guys like Brian Wolfe, Marc Bluestone, Jay Goltz, and others don't actively participate in these forums. They could very easily become the "Dear Abbey" of the framing world if they let their presence be known.

(Of course, you also have those 2 guys who live in a town that was named after 2000 lbs. of apples!! We'll just have to make exceptions for those guys!)
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Framerguy
 
Let's not lose sight of the fact the TG is nothing more than a group of friends batting various topics around, just for the heck of it. This topic is nothing more than that, something to banter around to each other until a better topic comes up, that will catch our interest. It was not intended to get anyones dander up or to harm "the leaders" of our industry. Just another subject, that's all.

John
 
John ; You very graciously suggested that TFG create a seperate section for Newbies,( I think since they were sometimes misunderstood by veterans). This was a point that had some merit since "Newbies " don't always understand Things like:

"It was not intended to get anyones dander up or to harm "the leaders" of our industry. Just another subject, that's all."

But Despite the fact that "Industry Leaders " could and probably are Veteran Framers they are most likely "NEWBIES" to TFG or at least to the "Bantering amongst friends" and may not take some of the insinuations as "Harmless" and could misinterpet some queries as being offensive. Add to that the Misconception some have about the forums name ,and I think you may be able to see how some threads can be viewed as negative even though they were not intended to be.

So maybe while Jim's suggested reason may be why some stay away ,do you think the tone of some of our rhetoric might intimadate some also?
Just another opinion I thought I'd Banter around.
BUDDY
 
Buddy, you are absolutely right. The Grumble can get a little rough from time to time. Usually if someone id getting unfair treatment, other Grumblers will come to their aid. I can understand a lot of folks being reluctant to sign on.

Myself, I like The Grumble, it's a lot better place to lose your temper, than say, in person. Can't break bones with words.

I kind of feel like we are family, we understand each other, we are willing to help each other as much as we can. We put up with each others shortcomings. Wanting this family to grow, I think, is a good thing. After you have been part of this group for a while, you start feeling this family stuff.

It does take some courage to make your first post, we all had to do it though. Probably what makes us such a great group.

John
 
Industry leaders can be found in many areas of the framing business. They are the people who other framers listen to and learn from. In my humble opinion the best leaders are those who are not afraid to embrace new ideas from others even if those ideas didn't come from a sorce that is well known to the industry.

A good leader will always try to help other framers to be as profitable as possible,and be willing to accept that the old ways aren't always the best for every situation. All the conservation and artistic/creative framing techniques in the world will not keep a shop going if the bottom line is in the red due to overhead.

The best leaders will always stop to listen to those who follow them because they know that if the only voice they ever hear is their own, then they haven't learned anything that they didn't already know.
 
Ah, The Grumble, my school of learning, my coffee shop of conversation, my time to laugh at a funny incident, enjoy a good joke (sometimes a great recipe) and most of all be informed on what the heck is going on out there in framing land that is beyond my little world.

Did I lurk, you bet I did, for two years; why did I wait to join, I just can't answer that question. Do I post a lot? (only when I ride my horse) The answer is no, generally someone has already answered the question. I have elected to not have internet service at the store. I was spending too much time on the internet and not getting my work done. So I only can view the Grumble at night when I get home and on West Coast time most of you have already hit the sack!

But I do visit EVERYDAY, I pick and choose what I want to read and thoroughly enjoy this website. I pray that it never expires........So to all of you wonderful people out there, keep the thoughts and questions flying.

Lynn Clark
 
Ok, I've Lurked through this whole thread...
or is it tread through this whole lurking...
Oh forget that.

What I came to the end of this very interesting social commentary to say or observe was a historical perspective of these (the Grumble and the Hitchhiker) open forums for the framers that is not driven by or censured by "the leaders".
Way back when in the late 80's, a very large handful of working framers started a little group called "The Guild", it became the PPFG, and membership was open (@ $25/yr) only to framers. No owners or corperations or "industry leaders" allowed. The amazing thing was the newsletter which was up and running in a matter of weeks, and the imput to finer, better, more correct and conservative framing information that poured into our hopper and grist information for the industry.

It was not surprising that several of us had contacts with conservators who wanted to contribute (for free) to better the industry that was in the process of "preserving today the historical artifacts for tomorrow". And then there was a cry in the San Francisco Bay area wilderness. A cry from 'a leader', which was taken up by the rest of the 'leaders', that "those untrained, uneducated, uncredited, unwashed (I and many were some of the first CPFs, and we took baths at least on Saturday night) were disseminating injurious practices that have no basis in FACT.
And that was the end of our newsletter, and the Guild, and the exchange and forum.
And the industry rewarded that clarion and paid him $85,000 per year to produce no replacement telling framers in plain English the proper way to frame things.
So here I am on the Grumble, reading the free exchange of ideas, feelings, information. In the few months I have been lurking and few weeks I have been posting, I have gathered more feeling for the industry, and tips, then I have seen produced by 15 years of fact finding.
This is what this country's forefathers meant by 'freedom of speech'. When people are allowed to communicate freely, there is community and free thought and a rise in the education.
Keep on Grumbling
 
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