Question Ethics?

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Bron

Bron

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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In this thread, 13th. c., Baer raises an issue that has piqued my interest ...

As framers, are we under some ethical or legal requirement to spend time looking at art registry DBs, etc., if we have a small hint that an object presented to us for work might not be "kosher"?

Are their liability issues?

Just askin ...

By the way, I'm looking for thoughts and opinions; I don't want to ask a lawyer. I'll save that for when I need one.
 
If someone brings something in to be framed and it is not a nude photo of my wife I will frame it.

I have framed blown up postcards, photocopied prints to copied wedding photos, I do not care, that part is not my job since I did not copy it or have a hand in producing the forged art.

My job is to make it look nice on their wall. Other than that I don't care what it is or where it came from.

Unless it was OJ Simpsons glove then I would call authorities.

Bob
 
A suspicion is just that. I'm not sure it obligates us to become researchers. On the other hand, if you happened to know there's a search on for a stolen piece, and you suspect that you know where it is, I think that would warrant a call to proper authorities. Same as if you saw someone that you recognized from the FBI's most wanted list.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
My job is to frame it, not to do a search on its provenance.

If it is something famous and I heard on the radio it's being sought, I will blackmail the customer who brought into buying my most expensive gold leaf frame and Optium museum glass.

Then I'd turn him in.
 
This is a pretty gray area, I think.

If I received something that I knew to be a forgery or violated a copyright, I believe that I have at least an ethical responsibility to say something.

But, I am not an appraiser or an art expert, nor do I claim to be. If something fishy passes my eyes undetected, I don’t believe that I have any legal liability as long as I’ve done my work in good faith.
 
Depends. Local Antique/Junque store was selling what was called an original pen and ink drawing by a semi-famous American artist. Customer purchased it for a pretty hefty figure, for something from this source. Brought it in for a reframe and I pointed out the page number at the bottom of the page. Torn out of a book...not even an original, nor an etching or engraving of the original...bookplate just like the rest of the book.
I'm not well educated enough to venture an opinion in the referenced thread. But if there is evidence that what I am framing is not properly represented by the owner or seller, I feel a certain obligation to tell the owner what I know. This covers any future liability when the truth does come out and the customer thinks that that scumbag framer switched my original for some fake.
Fortunately this is not something that happens frequently enough to really worry about.
 
wpfay said:
But if there is evidence that what I am framing is not properly represented by the owner or seller, I feel a certain obligation to tell the owner what I know. This covers any future liability when the truth does come out and the customer thinks that that scumbag framer switched my original for some fake.
QUOTE]

Good idea to cover your own rear. These days everyone wants something for nothing, and it seems this is another way for a scammer to reap benefits. In the earlier post where framerbob got scammed, I'm surprised the guy didn't throw that one in with the other carp he was pulling.
Click to expand...
 
JbNormandog said:
If someone brings something in to be framed and it is not a nude photo of my wife I will frame it.

I have framed blown up postcards, photocopied prints to copied wedding photos, I do not care, that part is not my job since I did not copy it or have a hand in producing the forged art.

My job is to make it look nice on their wall. Other than that I don't care what it is or where it came from.

Unless it was OJ Simpsons glove then I would call authorities.

Bob
Click to expand...

Bob,

I'm with you although I'd frame the nude of my wife.
there would just be a HUGE shop charge on that one:D

Butch
 
If I think it's stolen, I have a responsibility to pass on the info to the authorities.

Other than that, there's kind of a "How important is it's being real/fake?" question.

In the case Wally describes, the client was being duped and there may well have been recourse he/she could follow. I would point out my observations and let them decide how to proceed.

I have often had "original" paintings acquired on vacation (often from Paris) that are clearly prints. I usually keep my mouth shut and frame them.

Heck, they're not going back. They usually talk about what a "steal" they got. The things going to hang on the wall until their kids throw it away.

Why ruin it for them?

I DO make a note in the notes field of my Work Ticket. I know they could say I entered it to cover my butt, but if they're goign to that level they would deny anything verbal anyway.
 
The state does not pay you to be an investigator for them, does it? Although the state does encourage us to report on our neighbors, it does not offer you compensation for doing so, at least I hope it doesn't.

Your loyalties must first go to your customer, unlike they state, your customer is paying you for your efforts. This gives you the money so that you may pay the state it's fair share.

Your state will be happy, your customer will be happy.

There is a "ya but" in this though. If you know for sure the piece brought to you has been stolen, then you are at least obligated to notify your local authorities so that they may take full credit for finding the piece.

You are not a detective, you are not being paid for being a detective, so forget about being a detective. If you are harboring some minor suspicions, about things like authenticity, myself, as a businessperson, I think you should just forget it and do the job for your customer.

If you think your customer has been duped, think hard about telling them. Very few people like to hear that they are a sucker, and it is usually the messenger that gets blamed. Leave that to the art "experts" to tell them.

Your first loyalties should always be given to your customer, they are the ones who feed you.

There are some things I refuse to work on, such as things that glorify Nazism, I feel that is my right. I do not belittle my customer for wanting me to frame them though, that is not part of my job.

John
 
As far as I know, framers have no liability issues with forgeries and the like because we are not expected to positively identify artwork unless we are asked to sell it or replicate it. We are not pawn shops and items come in from, and are returned to, the same person. We are not at any point, the owners and have not profited from the sale or production of the artwork.

However, if we inject ourselves into a situation where we are breaching the confidentiality of a customer to others, we can be held liable for unprofessional behavior...whether we're right or wrong about it being stolen or forged. So, although it is important for me to live with myself, I also cannot afford to ruin my professional reputation by starting rumors.

If I'm asked by the customer, I'll give my opinion. But that's not the same thing as accusing someone.

For that reason, and not because I don't respect my artists, I abstain from speculation. My job is to frame.
 
wpfay said:
But if there is evidence that what I am framing is not properly represented by the owner or seller, I feel a certain obligation to tell the owner what I know. This covers any future liability when the truth does come out and the customer thinks that that scumbag framer switched my original for some fake.
Click to expand...


That IMO is the prized gem of this discussion, protecting yourself from future accusatitions that you exchanged the valuable piece for a fake.
 
John, although I do agree, I don't think there is a way to protect yourself against this.

Most of what I frame; I have no idea of the actual value. Nor do I have any means to determine the value. How could I be reasonably sure that something brought in to me, is valuable, if the customer doesn't tell me.

And customers don't always tell the truth. If someone tells me; this is worth 1000's of dollars, how do I know that's true? You can't always tell a fake from a real piece of art.

I'm a framer, not an appraiser. So if someone would be out to get me, there is not much I could do to protect myself. Sad. But true.
 
Buyer Beware !

We had a not to regular client who asked us if we could sell for him two original works of art by Charles Russell. One was an illustrated letter, the other a pen & ink drawing , asking price $ 25,000.00 each.They were both framed.

Because we had a good customer who was a Charles Russell collector we agreed to try to sell them seeking a finders fee. Even though we did not feel qualified to do so , we began an attempt to research the art. We were heartened by discovering a reproduction of the exact letter in a book about Russell ! Also found were many references to Americas foremost authority on Charles Russell,a fine gentleman named Fred Renner, Paradise Valley Arizona.

I called him, and he asked me for a deposit up front,and he would authenticate the works in 24 hours, but warned me that of the last 50 works he had appraised most were forgeries. Yes they were indeed fakes by a forger, known by the FBI, named Dixon.

In my anger I called an attorney friend and asked if I could mark these pieces in such a way to warn others not to follow our same path. The answer was NO they were not my property and I could be held liable for doing so. But without permission I did mark the frame rab NOT RUSSELL and my phone number.

I called the original donor and told him to pick up his fakes and he asked why I had authenticated the works saying it was buyer beware.I responded, BUYER BEWARE DOESN,T WORK IN THIS SHOP !
 
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