Ethics or Personal feelings on framing a silk scarf

Create a Post
B

Baer Charlton

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
May 24, 2004
Posts
21,029
Loc
On FB
It's not often that you get a crash coarse on ethics vs personal feelings from a highly accoladed law professor, but I did over lunch yesterday and it was as good as lunch with Bob Carter. So I thought I would massage the fuzzy sponge ball I'm using for a brain and pass this along.

We had been talking about other things, and the statement of framing a refusing to frame a photo of Hitler in a parade, a 9 year old boys first deer kill photo, etc etc. (I forgot at the time the umbilical cord discussion.... "the eeuw factor"). So the professor thought about it for a second then stated that he understood the moral right of refusal, but ask if I was open to wandering down a rabbit hole with him. (I checked, we weren't in Milwalkie and he wasn't tapping his foot so I felt safe.)

We started with and obviously emotionally charged item: a hand gun.

Would you frame it?

Customer comes in with a service revolver, badge and newspaper clipping about a cop getting shot.

"These were mine, when I retired, and that (news clipping) was my last case that retired me."

Would you frame it?

You scan the clipping and find out that the cop shot and killed the two robbers after he was almost fatally wounded.

Would you frame it?

You scan the clipping and find out that the cop shot and killed the two robbers after he was almost fatally wounded, bringing his total career kills with that revolver to a round dozen.

Would you frame it?

NOW, lets shift the ownership a bit.

The gun was the one used to rob the store, and almost fatally wounded the shop owner, who is your customer. The badge belonged to the cop that was robbing the store.

Would you frame it?

OK, as promised, here is the silk scarf and the real rabbit hole.


Premis: Customer walks in with a silk scarf. Nice colors but nothing that is spectacular. Not a "Designer" scarf, just a run of the mill 6,000,000 sold through JC Penney's kind of scarf.

Would you frame it?

To get a feel for how to frame it you ask about the story behind the scarf.

"It belonged to my mother."

Would you frame it?

"It was the scarf my mother was wearing when she died."

Would you frame it?

"It was the scarf my mother was wearing when she was killed."

Would you frame it?

"It was the scarf my mother was wearing and strangled to death with."

Would you frame it?

[Aren't you glad you ask these wonderful open-ended questions...?]

Last step and into the rabbit hole.....

"It was the scarf my mother was wearing, that I used to strangle her to death."

Would you frame it?

"It was the scarf my mother was wearing, that I used to strangle her to death, and I want to frame it to remember he by."

Would you frame it?

"It was the scarf my mother was wearing, that I used to strangle her to death, as well as the other nine members of her tea party group, and I want to frame it nice to remember that day."

Would you frame it?

Sorry about the euw fractor... but as a lawyer he has seen worse in the court rooms.

He had a few other things for me, but these were stand outs. There are many things that we don't really think about, that have tremendous emotional and ethic or cultural cache, some have appeared here on the boards and even photos in the Frame Design section. In certain context these seemingly innocuous items can be nuclear bombs to certain framers.

These may or may not be extreme, but I know of a few of these happening. We framers come from very diverse backgrounds, and bring those background belief systems, ethics, morals, and other baggage with them, where others wouldn't be effected. For instance:

Piece to be framed Framer

Jimmy Hendrix's guitar Jehovah Witness or KKK member

photo: 9 yr olds first kill Vegan

Maplethorp original of nude Evangelical

Nude wedding photos for gay couple Evangelical, JW, KKK (oh, did I mention it's a inter-racial marriage?)

Photo of a Kermarouge gang Cambodian immigrant

Birthing photos ZPG activist

War memorabilia Pacifist

Animal skin art My wife, PETA, Green Peacer etc

and the list can go on forever.... just thoughts on an insomniac night.

Let the rantings, thoughts, ideas, and ideals begin.
 
Standard "after Cruise" meal: house salad with basalmic vinegar, herb tea and four glasses of water, and the pumpkin pie....

why?
 
I will settle this problem for you...I truly respect your right to have these moral dilemmas about any particular object(s) & support your right to refuse to handle them! Soooooooo call me about them, send the clients to me, I'll do them(at a 'slightly' inflated price), you're happy not doing it, the client is happy it's done, I'm happy for being paid ---it's a win win win situation, yes?

not to frakenthread but have you stayed relative hi&dry thru all that rain/flood?????? serves y'all right for hogging all that moisture!!! the weather guy here, yesterday, proclaimed FLA is somewhere in the neighborhood of 30" DOWN for the last 2 years or so! that's a LOT of wet! so we'll(GA & SC tooooo) take your excess & save you the grief!
 
BILL WARD said:
not to frakenthread but have you stayed relative hi&dry thru all that rain/flood?????? serves y'all right for hogging all that moisture!!! the weather guy here, yesterday, proclaimed FLA is somewhere in the neighborhood of 30" DOWN for the last 2 years or so! that's a LOT of wet! so we'll(GA & SC tooooo) take your excess & save you the grief!
Click to expand...

For sure. We're tripping over catfish carcasses around here!

As for Baer - if the object offends, refuse it. I consider myself an emerging professional of our craft, and would not prostitute myself out for a dollar.
 
Heh...you frame an old Nazi swastika flag...two months later that flag in your frame is carried between two neo-nazi's in a parade...a picture of the men and the flag appears in your local paper...

"But he seemed like such a nice young man!"

I think it depends on circumstances, but I do think that the possible use of the object in question needs to at least run through the framer's mind at the time of design and sale.
 
If the guy wants a green suit, you sell him a green suit. You just don't sew your name tag into the coat.:beer:
 
Is there anything I wouldn't frame ...probably, but I haven't had to face that dilemma yet.

:icon11:

Anything that is degrading to the human spirit, anyone's religion or ethnic background is potentially a turn down.

I guess that leaves it wide open.
 
I'm with Bill. I frame items that celebrate causes I don't support frequently. As long as the customer agrees to my price I'm happy.

The only lines I'd draw are no biohazard and if there was any indication that the item was obtained illegally.

If someone came in proudly proclaiming he'd like to frame the scarf he used to kill 11 tea partying ladies I'd take his money, throw up a little in my mouth, and launch the most vocal "we need a new DA" campaign my town had ever seen. (Assuming he'd been tried and acquitted - if he was confessing to me that's a different matter)

I framed a handgun with documentation that indicated it had belonged to Dutch Schultz, and papers related to trading slaves.

People post pictures of Civil War weapons they've framed. Do you think those weren't used to kill people?
 
My customers don't pay me to judge their morals or their intentions. They pay me to frame their stuff.

We all have the right to refuse a customer's order if we are greatly offended, but in most business situations, I would not consider my moral beliefs to be a relevent issue, let alone superior to anyone else's.
 
If it bothers you, just say "I wouldn't feel comfortable framing this."

In regards to guns and other harbingers of mayhem, it's interesting how the label "historic" can wash away a lot of sins that the label "contemporary" can not. We don't take history seriously enough.

PS how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
 
The up-side to framing something I'm uncomfortable with (as in that little piece of umbilical cord and birth pictures, side of a cardboard box labeled HUMAN BLOOD (a momento of his Vietnam medivac days), the 9-yr old's first kill deer and the shotgun shell, gay wedding night, etc.), is that I'm likely to get them finished and outa my shop really fast.

If I refused to frame what made me uncomfortable over the years, I'd've had a lot less work to do and probably been out of a job. It's just none of my business!!

I've learned to try not to think about the moral ethics of that "thing" I'm framing, that it's just a "thing" (i.e....how many people did that civil war pistol kill over all those years?....like that). Although that dead deer photo gave me the creeps because it kept looking at me, so I just covered it's little face up with a sticky note until the last minute. I do what I gotta or do or....I don't. My choice.
.
.
I might have a problem with the silk scarf and the strangle party, though.
 
Jim Miller said:
My customers don't pay me to judge their morals or their intentions. They pay me to frame their stuff.

We all have the right to refuse a customer's order if we are greatly offended, but in most business situations, I would not consider my moral beliefs to be a relevent issue, let alone superior to anyone else's.
Click to expand...


Also

Is their money GREEN?
Is the item legal to possess?

If yes, to both I frame it.

framer
 
Funny you should bring this up, given my morning commute today. My store is near the local Planned Parenthood office. There is a guy here who regularly conducts a vigil outside Planned Parenthood. That's his right, except that he parks a big van festooned with huge photos of bloody, mangled fetuses. Indeed, he's been banned by the church he regularly attended, because he persisted, despite church requests, in parking that van in the church lot on Sunday, where it would traumatize dozens of young children. But if that isn't enough, he also posts huge placards proclaiming that "Abortion Causes Breast Cancer." As the son of a breast cancer survivor, that deeply offends me.

So if this guy came in asking me to drymount one of his bloody fetus pictures, yeah, I'd not just turn him down, I'd roughly escort him to the sidewalk. And we have a narrow sidewalk, so I can't really guarantee he wouldn't stumble into the street right in front of a UPS truck.
 
Pretty ridiculous.

If it's in the realm of possibilities to frame, then I'll do it.

And that's not just because I have loose morals.

I have a business to attend to, and that (as it should be) is where my interests lie.
 
ACFramer said:
Pretty ridiculous.

If it's in the realm of possibilities to frame, then I'll do it.

And that's not just because I have loose morals.

I have a business to attend to, and that (as it should be) is where my interests lie.
Click to expand...


I certainly understand yours and others position. My interest lies not so much on the 'seen' (i.e. my business), which rusts, rots and fades away...but on the 'unseen' - who I am underneath this temporary housing (physical body). But then that's where the water gets too deep for most.

As I said, it it offends, turn it down! A scarf is just a scarf, until it's story gets told. Interesting thread.
 
After they ask "will you frame it" I will ask "will you pay me", the answer to the first is dependant on the reply to the later.
 
..or say a Proctologist comes in with a collection of photos of his patients "........" reminiscing about this one and that one.:vomit:

Gotta draw the line somewhere!!!
 
The subtext of this thread, it seems to me, is that we are pretty much all self-employed (with a few exceptions). And so we aren't beholden to a boss, who tells us what to do and treats us like crapola. I suspect many of us sought out self-employment to get that kind of freedom. So that gives us the ability, should we choose to exercise it, to turn away customers and projects that we don't care to deal with.
 
Baer Charlton said:
Animal skin art My wife, PETA, Green Peacer etc
Click to expand...

Seeing as how I'm an animal rights guy, this one speaks to me personally.

I do frame skin artwork. I frame pretty much anything. I'd probably frame a human hand if it were already preserved, and didn't require any care more than leather.

It's not my job to critique what is brought in (barring significantly illegal items).

Am I happy that someone chooses to rip apart a living, breathing, thinking creature and carve them into shapes, then bring them in to me for framing? No. But since I don't believe the act of framing contributes at all to what occurred prior, then I don't (currently) have a (big enough) problem with it.
 
I'll generally frame anything that is:

-Within the limitations of my ability
-Within the limitations of my shop
-Within the limitations of the law

The only frame jobs I've refused to take in (that were within my ability) were what appeared to my untrained eye to be, shall we say, boudoir photos involving models who did not appear to be of age. Having said that, nobody has yet asked me to frame a gun, a notorious murder-related souvenir, Nazi/other genocide related memorabilia, or any biological materials (excluding artwork on cured leather). I do someday expect it, though.
 
Aside from the recent copy of the Yamamoto print, an artist whom I represent, I can only remember one other type of item I have refused to frame. A piece of art on paper with so many bugs inside and so much visible mould that I refused to take it apart. I gave them the conservator's card and sent them on their way.

Luckily I have not had to make decisions about framing some of the items you mention in tis thread, Baer. How are the floods up there?
 
Unless framing something offends your sensibilities, frame it. Someone else would do it without a thought. I have a local, strange, strong willed Nazi type friend that once brought me three prints of WWII Nazi air aces that had shot down many Allied aircraft during the war and wanted them framed. I did not agree with his politics, told him so but charged $1200.00 for the job. I sleep well.


Jack Cee
 
I do have limits beyond which I will not go; turned down a job of framing three nude photos of couples engaged in sex acts on moving motorcycles. You really had to be amazed at what can be done while traveling 80 MPH. Lost a friend over that one but then I was offended by the subjects and his asking me to frame them. Still sleep well.

Jack Cee
 
... did you make copies ( solely so you can remember your limits) and can we see them?? I want to be amazed, too.:thumbsup:
 
It depends on what the item is definately!

I do think people that have controversial (sp?) items would rather come to smaller shops than the BB's. Most corporate companies do not allow guns, knives etc..... to be left there. Hard to turn that sale away!

But how many of us, if it offends, would or would not put their sticker on the back?
Reputation is a double edge sword, especially when you are in a small town!:shrug:
 
Yeah Jack, I don't believe the story either.
Can we see proof of those offending pictures???:p

But on a more serious note: A VERY good customer of mine ($20000+ worth of framing per year) brought me once a blueprint of the Messerschmitt BF109 airplane's engine to frame.

That's the same airplane those German aces used in your post. I had no problem framing it; maybe because he is not a Nazi sympathizer and as a retired Navy person, he collects historical mementos from all over.

But sometimes the association is not so controversial (an airplane engine compared to, say, a Japanese execution sword).
 
I recently did a shadow box of WWII Fallschirmjäger wings, all of which the swastika was displayed. It was for a collector of WWII military items. On one side it contained all the WWII items, to include a German Paratrooper knife. On the other side it contained the current Para wings and a current Para knife. In the center on a metal plate we had engraved the Fallschirmjäger Commandments, both in German and in English. I think it turned out rather nice. I don't agree with anything the Nazi stood for but I won't refuse a paying job.
I have to asked to frame some rather odd things over the past year that I have been open. Some things I didn't feel comfortable with, but I still did them. I still have to pay the bills. I wouldn't frame something that was illegally obtained. but we al have to live with our selves when the day is done.
 
I agree with PaulSF. Not having to answer to a "boss" leaves me with ultimate decision making powers. It doesn't matter to me that someone else would frame it in a heartbeat. That's their decision. If I am offended by what the customer wants, I will not hesitate to decline the business. To do otherwise would make me feel as if I were endorsing their activities.
 
Hoorah for all who are standing up for, behind, & in front of what they believe in. How we moan and groan about business being taken from us by the BB's, how the little guy is being squelched in the market place. High and mighty, in MY OPINION, is for the rich. Rich I am not. So bring me your guns, your hair (ewe), your Nazi memorabila, your slave documents, your most ugly and wretched jobs imaginable. I don't care if you are a Skinhead or a devil worshiper. I don't care if you eat meat or tofu. I don't care what you do in your bedroom (or on your motorcycle). I am not at the point in my business career where I can refuse to pimp myself for a dollar.

*Besides, doing TK's all day long is boring as he11.

;-)
 
WWow great discussion. Makes you really think on some of those. Would you if you knew?

On the other side I have done many things that might be wierd for someone else with no problem.

However real gall stones used as space rocks on a x-stich of the space shuttle with planets etc.. removed from grandma and given to grandson gave me a little UUGHHHHH!!!:vomit: But they do kind of look spacey! Wear gloves!!

My first piece in my own shop was a signed Beauford Pusser (sp?) stick and the second was The Last Supper done in 60,000 glass beads they are both pieces I put a lable on.

I hope I don't get Nazi things to have to decide my Grandparents were Polish.

Could I jokingly ring my own mothers neck some days? Sure! Am I gonna frame the murder weapon? Not!
 
Sounds like we have a marketing niche.

Shop Slogan

"We frame the political incorrect and the scandalous."
 
Baer's example of the scarf killer reminded me of an episode from my past. Back when I was practicing law, I did a 10-month stint prosecuting child support enforcement cases. We'd summon the deadbeat dad (almost always the dad) into court, and try to garnish wages if he was working. So we get this guy in one day, nicest guy you could imagine. Friendly, affable, didn't seem at all put out by being summoned to court. So the hearing officer asks the guy why he isn't paying his support, and the guy says he's disabled. Hearing officer asks the nature of his disability. The guy responds, "I'm a paranoid schizophrenic with homicidal tendencies." Dead silence in the courtroom, and I think everyone, me included, took a step back. So after a couple of beats, the hearing officer asks if the guy has his disability under control? (yeah, thanks for poking the dragon!!). The guy answers that he does, he's taking his medication regularly. So the hearing officer says, "keep it up, thanks for coming in. Dismissed!"

When that guy left, I think we all breathed a big sigh of relief!
 
As far as the scarf goes... I would ask if he wanted to include any newspaper clippings, mug shots, evidence tag from the scarf and anything else I could think of to make that job real big.

I have framed a flag that said "Kill Whitey" on it. Nicest black guy came into the shop, put it on the counter as if it were the same as a wedding portrait and we designed a nice piece. (Other than the fact someone wrote "Kill WHitey" on an american flag)

I charged as much as I could and he paid for it.

If the guy pi$$ed me off I would have tossed him, my choice, my shop.

Other than that, I am a framer not a judge.

Bob
 
I did not keep copies of the MotoSex, sorry. Perhaps some night over several glasses of JD I could offer a description. I did not think some of these positions were physically possible-dream on. Never underestimate the power of a Harley. I used to ride a BMW but behaved myself.

Jack Cee
 
Paul N said:
We frame what the BBs are too scared to touch.
Bring it on!!
​
Click to expand...


or how about this:

Full Confidentiality Is Only A 15% Upcharge
 
Jack Cee said:
Never underestimate the power of a Harley. I used to ride a BMW but behaved myself.
Click to expand...

Hey, I was as bad ( I think) in a plain 1996 Honda going 85+ mph, slightly (I am a bit fuzzy on this...) liquored up, at 11 PM on the Mass Turnpike......with huge trucks and massive trailers whizzing by.

I have no idea how I controlled that car, as I was really losing control over the foot on the pedal / brakes.......!

And yes, there was someone with me in the car!:p

Ah, the good old days. Wait, that was only 7 years ago!!

Sorry for the Frankenpost.
 
You know what amazes me is the fact that the only items that keep getting brought up are the scarf and the Nazi stuff. Know one brings up the cop that killed someone or the nudes.
I had my Supervisor's (who I have know for my entire 18 year Army career) wife bring in a couple of photos (18x24)in some pretty revealing positions (according to my wife). She wanted me to frame them, I had my wife take the measurements of the photos and I just did the manual labor. I then let her finish them. She wrapped them up and dealt with everything else. I never saw them. I made this suggestion when she brought them in and she was explaining what they were, this way I wasn't embrassing anyone, namley me. Of course it was interesting the first time I saw my boss after she gave them to him!!:icon19:
 
I hadn't been for a BMW ride for about six months so one day I put on my helmet and all of the other anti-skid stuff and went for a ride on I5 at about 75 to keep up with the traffic. As I was passing a motorist doing about 70 a spider disengaged itself from the top of my helmet and crawled across my eyes, nose and lips looking for an exit. From this point on it got kind of interesting. Somehow I passed the vehicle, got into the right lane and onto the edge of the freeway, stopped, parked and started to remove: helmet, jacket, t-shirt and got down to the belt when I found the Grand dady Long legs looking just as innocent as it could. Killed it anyway. I'll bet that you thought that this story was going to be dirty.

Jack Cee
 
Glad you guys/gals are finding this topic as interesting as I found that 2 hour lunch.

As some of you have noticed, the question is "where do you personally draw your own line". It has nothing to do with other peoples ideals, or societies moral judgments... its about your comfort level.

Army framer, you're entirely correct... I also was amazed that there was a pass on the officers gun, badge and clipping... (I framed that for the shopkeeper in 1979. The scarf passed my way in 1987.).

The woman that brought me the nude (not bedroom style) I kind of thought I knew here... then I noticed the signature on the photos... she had been in a photo class that I had posed for. I didn't say anything, because I didn't want her to feel uncomfortable.... but as she was leaving, she turned and said that maybe she should bring in and frame her best photo of me in my armor.... :D

she did. And she printed off an 8x10 for me as a tip.... some where around here.... :D ... and before anyone asks, no. I won't post or email.. it's copyrighted.

carry on, it's getting good.
 
Probably the most offensive piece I've framed in my nineteen years in this profession was the 24x36 blown-up photo of the customer in a casual "glamor" shot!

And the dead baby photo.

The Glamor shot was just too egotistical for us to handle and we gagged as we stretched the canvas and framed it.

The baby was a stillborn and my manager/graphic designer had the privilege of "photoshopping" the baby to make it not look like a dried-up monkey, so that we could frame the retouched photo for the grandmother to give to the mother. The grandmother wasn't happy with the retouch, then never picked up the corrected version, nor the original disc, nor paid for the restoration! She--AND her daughter--were in serious denial! Prolly still are!

Oh, yes. There are the dead buffalo/happy hunter photos that the wife refused to look at when she picked up her husband's order. I noticed right away, during the annual Christmas House Tour in Salem, that the wife had removed the trophy heads from the stairwell of her tour house, because her husband was away in Florida doing business for the weekend. I wanted MY husband to see the trophy rooms in this couple's house, because I had seen them when i had delivered an over-sized framed piece to them over the summer.

Wendy
The Art Corner
978-745-9524
artcornersalem@verizon.net
 
We get 'em all, don't we?

wendy lang said:
And the dead baby photo.
Click to expand...
I one had to frame a dead-husband-in-a-coffin photo. I thought she'd be all emotional when she picked it up. Well, she was.....laughed her -uh- head off. I guess my startled look asked for an explanation. "I just want to be reminded every day that the SOB is finally, really, gone!"
 
Baer Charlton said:
its about your comfort level.
Click to expand...

Yes, moral sense and comfort level are closely linked. Heaven forbid we should have a moral sense that made us uncomfortable, or that was inconvenient.

Nothing more convenient or comfortable than a moral paradigm that can take offense with group of concept not too close to one's own experience. Anybody looking for truly comfortable moral shot-in-the-arm should not overlook gay marriage. And of course Nazi's are always a good bet, practically the same thing.

But Darfur? Ooh, that's uncomfortable and almost certainly inconvenient, would hate to have to deal with that, let's just ignore it.
 
Paul N said:
We frame what the BBs are too scared to touch.
Bring it on!!
​
Click to expand...

Not at mine. I rarely turn down a job. If it's something I find slightly offensive, I give them a PITA charge. Usually an extra hour of labor. When I was at M's, I framed a few Nazi images.

And now at Joanns, had a few nudes that we framed. Actually, one of the local strip club has some of our work up. He wants to be able to change out the photo when he wants, or when a new girl comes in. Even picked up some matching fabric for the stage hahaha.
 
Create a Post
Back
Top