Ethical dilemma

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Bill Henry-

Bill Henry-

Brussel Sprout Connoisseur
Joined
Aug 17, 2002
Posts
21,513
Loc
Boondock Bowerbank, ME
Business
Retired from the grind
A new customer came in, yesterday, with two open edition prints dry mounted onto regular (non acid-free) foam board.

Her story was that she had commissioned both to be framed by another frame shop – a competitor with whom we do not share cordial relations. The quote she received was ~$500 for both – from her description of the frames, a little high from our perspective, but not outrageous. She plunked down a $250 deposit.

First, she had been told that the moulding was out of stock, then after 5 months of waiting, that it had been discontinued. Annoyed at the wait, she went to claim her two prints. The only work that had been done on this order was the dry mounting. Using our standard price list, we estimated that, had we mounted these in a similar manner, we would have charged her $31.40 for one and $25.70 for the other.

When she tried to reclaim part of her deposit, this frame shop told her that they were going to keep the whole $250. She was told that that was to cover to cost of the dry mounting charge and the storage for the five months. They did not return a dime.

As she was relating the story, she alternated between being angry and a bit weepy. She feels strongly that she was treated very badly. Her husband wants to take them to Small Claims Court to recoup this loss.

I am not soliciting comments on how badly you believe this frame shop treated this customer (I think we will all agree on that), but, rather, would you aid her in trying to recover her deposit? Would you draft a letter which she could use in Small Claims Court to debunk the claim that it cost $250 to dry mount two medium sized prints?

Although it may sound self serving (I am, after all, getting the framing job), I am leaning towards doing so. I really think she got screwed. How would you guys handle this?
 
Business-related issues aside, I would lean toward helping her out. It sounds like this other shop probably doesn't have "cordial relations" with too many people with practices like this.

Your letter would serve nothing more than "expert" testimony regarding the cost of drymounting.

How many of us would gladly get rid of stuff that we've stored for 5 months, 12 months, or 5 years? Would you charge for it? I certainly wouldn't - I'd be glad for the space.

Tony
 
I think they have quite a nerve charging her for anything, including the mount. None of this was the customer's fault.

Does she really need you to write a letter? Wouldn't an invoice with the dry mount cost be sufficient? A letter may not be enough. You may actually have to go to court yourself to testify in her behalf. I would find out before I got myself too involved.

Could this shop be in financial difficulty? Maybe they couldn't get the moulding because they haven't been paying their bills. To come up with some lame excuse for not giving the customer her money back when she has every right to it sounds like a business in trouble to me. Maybe you could find out what moulding she ordered and check into yourself. Wouldn't it be something if they lied to her about it.
 
Originally posted by Pamela DeSimone, CPF:
I would find out before I got myself too involved.

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Me too. I would tread lightly here. Never put your business in the middle of someone else's legal disputes.

Frame her prints quickly, nicely, and at a fair price and you will win her over.

Jerry
 
Not to be contrary... but to be the "devil's advocate" - do we know this woman's story is true?

If there are not cordial relations with this other frame shop, there may be know way of knowing...
 
The fact that the moulding discontinued is enough to break the contract. She should recover 100% in small claims on that alone. You don't need to be involved.

framer
 
Yes, she was cheated and she would probably win in small claims court.

I would not become directly involved, as that would be an unnecessary declaration of war against the competitor, with a customer in the middle. It's better to be on friendly terms, to whatever exent that's possible. In this case, I'd stay visibly neutral. That's a position of integrity, and the customer should respect it.

I would comment to the customer that our business doesn't operate that way. Then I would give her a separate estimate for the drymounting, just as I would for any other customer. However, contrary to my usual procedure, I would give it to her in writing.

Finally, I would suggest that before she goes to court, she send a letter addressed to the owner of the company, outlining the events and asking for a full refund of the entire $250. deposit.
If the tables were turned (although that's unlikely), I would appreciate that kind of courtesy from a troubled customer.

If the owner of the company doesn't respond immediately & favorably, then I would agree with her husband -- take him to court. And if it comes to that, the letter asking for a refund would serve to describe her complaint. It would also demonstrate her fair treatment of the business in question, which might help to cement her legal victory.
 
The fact that they would charge her for storage is inconceivable! Especially since it was their fault to begin with! At the VERY least, the only amount that they would have any right to, IMO, would be the costs for the drymounting, as it WAS a service done. However, in this case, seeing as she was made to wait for five months, the entire amount should have been returned to her. The fact that they did not, and in fact told her that the balance beyond the cost of the drymounting was a charge for storage, smacks of a total lack of business ethics.

I would stay out of it, though. You've already stated that there is a less than cordial relationship with this company as it is. Why make it worse? IMO, the best you could do is bend over backwards for her as far as her order with YOU. The other company's loss is your gain, and she'll remember you in the future.
 
I think Pamela hit the nail on the head (and she probably uses an underpinner.)

It sounds like the other shop is in trouble. They may not HAVE $250 to give the customer and they may not be able to order the moulding because of an outstanding balance with the vendor.

Maybe somebody advised them to "hang in there at any cost" when they should have closed the joint up a while ago.
 
I could go along with giving her a written estimate for a similar drymount job, but I have to wonder why she waited five months before pulling her prints. If she was waiting for an out-of-stock moulding to get back into inventory she is exceptionally patient.
 
If she was waiting for an out-of-stock moulding to get back into inventory she is exceptionally patient.
Click to expand...
I once had a customer wait for over 6 months until I was able to get a wide gold moulding from Decor in long enough lengths to frame his 10-foot long poster. He'd had some other posters done in the same frame, and was adamant that he wanted the same moulding on the new piece. Some people will wait however long it takes until the moulding comes in, especially if they are given assurances at regular intervals that the moulding is expected in at some point. She must have had her reasons for agreeing to the wait time.

As far as the company being in dire financial straits, I would give her the money out of my OWN pocket, before I let a customer walk away with that bad an image of my company.
 
I love how we all are so quick to offer advice when we don't know the details. I don't doubt for a minute that Bill is relating exactly what was told.

However, perhaps this lady put down no deposit, the framer did the work, sat in his shop for 5 months and client is the one without any money. The framer duns here to pick it up, she gets defensive, he takes the art out of framing because he knows it's the easiest way to get rid of her and is now stuck with precut material.

In all of the years we have all been in business, I doubt if many of us have had a 5 month out of stock, and if that were true, how many of us would have offered something different to finish up the order?

In all the years that we have all been in business, how many pieces have sat around completed with no deposits for five months (or longer)waiting for pickup. You betcha, most of us.

Sometimes we just don't know all the facts, but I'm going with the odds on this one.

More than once, I have heard an unbelievable story from a client. Don't know the particulars here, but I should wouldn't pass any judgement on this framer.

(As soon as I posted this I read Andy's post-so it could happen. But, I'm skeptical)

[ 08-13-2003, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: Bob Carter ]
 
I would do what she asked me to do regarding the framing.I wouldn`t have anything to do with her claim against the other shop.Why bother to get involved?
 
Since as you pointed out you do not enjoy a cordial relationship with the other framer I would caution you against any involvement other than providing an estimate for the same work done in your shop.
 
I agree with Roz, that you are only hearing one side of the story. When injured, anyone can sound convincing. The framer may be convincing, too. . . . like him or not.

I would write up how much the mounting cost and let her handle the rest in small claims court. It is her fight about the storage charge, not yours.

I would stay out of the storage part.
 
An interesting question comes to mind. Does anyone charge for storage?, and if so is the customer made aware of that when they place the order?

There was a thread a while back about what we do with unclaimed orders. I dont recall any mention of anyone charging for storage. My instinct is that this woman had no idea she was being charged for storage or she wouldn't have waited so long, especially for a situation no one had any control over.

If you feel the need to be involved and help her out, I wouldn't put anything in writing. Maybe a friendly reminder that by definition a service rendered for monetary concern constitutes a legal contract. If there wasn't one, they have no legal right to keep her money.
 
this is a good one for pondering. i am with most of the folks here.

tell the customer to send a registered letter outlining all the details of the job and why it was there for such a while.

let her know that you would be willing to give an estimate on the pieces if she needs this for a court hearing.

let her know that you are there for her and would be willing to help her with the framing...the kind part of me saids to give her a couple bucks off.

try not to get involved to heavily. not too many people would let their work set in drawer for five months. not too many people would say drymounting is half the price of an entire job.

things don't add up, who is in the right here? that is a hard guess.
denn
 
As an aside, I had a customer wait 4 months for a moulding. I kept offering her the opportunity to choose something else, but she refused. So, it does happen.

No, I don't charge for storage. I think it's a good way to get a customer angry. There is no point. The things that get left the customer has lost interest in. They get put in the "deadbeat" pile and eventually tossed out. No one ever leaves anything I can sell.
 
I have to say alarm bells are going off in my head.
Everytime a customer has been into my store with a bad story about another framer they have been trouble.
This hasn't actually happened very often but my advice would be to provide the quote for drymounting, do the job she wants you to do and not be involved in any other way.

Tread carefully.
 
When you have an accident, your insurance company requires at least two quotes for repairs. It works for the insurance industry, she should use it for her case if her case is indeed legitimate. Seems like her lawyer should be determining the path that she is taking. This keeps your liability to a minimum, she has multiple quotes to substantiate her claim and no one shop has aligned itself with her story.

my 2 cents

elaine
 
Originally posted by Bob Carter:
...I don't doubt for a minute that Bill is relating exactly what was told...However, perhaps this lady put down no deposit...she gets defensive, he takes the art out of framing because he knows it's the easiest way to get rid of her and is now stuck with precut material...Sometimes we just don't know all the facts, but I'm going with the odds on this one.
Click to expand...
Good point, Bob. There are two sides to every story. After thinking about the possible scenario you described, my response to her would be the same as I described above. We're on the same page here.

That is, I wouldn't want to make trouble for the other guy in any case, but I would respond to the customer's complaint within my usual business practices.

No matter what the truth is between the client and the first framer, the second framer needs to deal with the order at hand -- not the one the other guy supposedly messed up.

And in the process of it all, there may be valuable insights gained about the client, too.
 
Thanks for everyone’s input.

In my naiveté, I didn’t consider that this lady may have been shading the truth. But having been on the receiving end of my competitors’ “pranks” (they are the ones who tried to cancel a delivery order once – they failed ‘cause they didn’t know my account number – and the ones who had swamped me with “what a lousy framer you are” phone calls – they hadn’t heard of caller ID), I am not at all reluctant to believe that they are capable of this kind of sleazy activity.

I have decided to write a carefully worded letter describing only what I know to be fact: the prints were dry mounted onto foam board, their condition when I received them, and that we would have charged $XX.xx for a similar job. I shall not mention my competitor by name; nor editorialize about the customer’s claim of a returned deposit, how long it remained in the shop, the discontinued/out of stock item or anything that I have not witnessed first hand.
 
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