F
framer
Guest
This thread is for employee's only.
Have at it...
framer
Have at it...
framer
- Status
A
Audrey
Guest
Framer--
Thanks. LOL Although I don't know how many responses this thread will get, because this subject has taken over other threads and seems to be taking on a life of its own...
As far as employees soliciting business at work, or doing jobs "on the sly," I don't approve of it, nor do I think any honorable person would.
But what concerns me is the attitude of employers on this subject, and just about any time employees are mentioned at all. I hear a lot of whining about overhead, and paranoia about theft, and moaning about employee mistakes, and "Can I make 'em pay for it?" and "I can't afford to pay my employee now that he injured himself at work--can I cut back his hours?"
This is crap, and frankly it appalls me. The first sign of a business that is doing well is when you HAVE to hire an employee. Or two. Or five. And this means that you are doing well, and making money, and that you are paying people BECAUSE they are making you money. You're not doing anyone a favor when you cut them a check at the end of the month; I think this whole attitude that employees should stand up and applaud because they get paid before the owner is ridiculous.
I realize that attitudes change when you switch from an employee to an employer, as do priorities. It's only natural. But I've worked for a lot of bosses who don't say a word when they see an employee doing well, or going the extra mile, because "THAT'S WHAT I PAY 'EM FOR!" And then they go ballistic when someone makes a mistake, and start whining about all the money they COULD be making if they didn't have to worry about their employees.
Sorry, I don't buy it. The reason you make as much money as you do is because of your employees; I've covered my boss's ass many a time, dealt with angry customers, or saved an order that was wrong, and even--GASP--had people say that they continue coming back because of me. Not because of my employer. Because they like what I do for them. Which makes him look good, too, doesn't it? Makes him money, doesn't it?
And frankly, the only time I would think about "moonlighting" on the side is if my boss became one of those who never wanted to give me a raise, who never said a word of appreciation, who always assumed that I was out to rob him, steal him, ruin his bottom line and ensure that he doesn't make any money.
So ask yourself, the next time you start counting the spring clips, if maybe you're the one who's to blame. I bust my ass every day at work for my boss; the last thing I want to hear is accusations that he could make more money without me. I know he couldn't.
------------------
I don't care what color your sofa is.
Thanks. LOL Although I don't know how many responses this thread will get, because this subject has taken over other threads and seems to be taking on a life of its own...
As far as employees soliciting business at work, or doing jobs "on the sly," I don't approve of it, nor do I think any honorable person would.
But what concerns me is the attitude of employers on this subject, and just about any time employees are mentioned at all. I hear a lot of whining about overhead, and paranoia about theft, and moaning about employee mistakes, and "Can I make 'em pay for it?" and "I can't afford to pay my employee now that he injured himself at work--can I cut back his hours?"
This is crap, and frankly it appalls me. The first sign of a business that is doing well is when you HAVE to hire an employee. Or two. Or five. And this means that you are doing well, and making money, and that you are paying people BECAUSE they are making you money. You're not doing anyone a favor when you cut them a check at the end of the month; I think this whole attitude that employees should stand up and applaud because they get paid before the owner is ridiculous.
I realize that attitudes change when you switch from an employee to an employer, as do priorities. It's only natural. But I've worked for a lot of bosses who don't say a word when they see an employee doing well, or going the extra mile, because "THAT'S WHAT I PAY 'EM FOR!" And then they go ballistic when someone makes a mistake, and start whining about all the money they COULD be making if they didn't have to worry about their employees.
Sorry, I don't buy it. The reason you make as much money as you do is because of your employees; I've covered my boss's ass many a time, dealt with angry customers, or saved an order that was wrong, and even--GASP--had people say that they continue coming back because of me. Not because of my employer. Because they like what I do for them. Which makes him look good, too, doesn't it? Makes him money, doesn't it?
And frankly, the only time I would think about "moonlighting" on the side is if my boss became one of those who never wanted to give me a raise, who never said a word of appreciation, who always assumed that I was out to rob him, steal him, ruin his bottom line and ensure that he doesn't make any money.
So ask yourself, the next time you start counting the spring clips, if maybe you're the one who's to blame. I bust my ass every day at work for my boss; the last thing I want to hear is accusations that he could make more money without me. I know he couldn't.
------------------
I don't care what color your sofa is.
Framing Goddess
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Well, The Goddess is begging everyone's indulgence here... she is officially an employer, but she is technically an employee as well, so...
Audrey, I see that you have taken the opportunity to "Grumble" indeed! And your post should be a wake-up call to all of us who wear the employer hat.
I am glad that you realize that attitudes change when you are both an employer and employee, and I am not at all surprised that you do not approve of employee "moonlighting." Any good employee would feel the same, IMHO.
But I must address the comment you made about "my employee injured himself at work- can I cut his hours..."because that was my comment. And, yes, I was whining just a little bit. (Grumbling?) But I need to point out that this employee is still out with her injury and she is being paid approx. 72% of her regular salary by worker's comp.while she is authorized-no-ORDERED by her doctor to keep her hand immobilized. But it is not at all clear in Worker's comp. literature that this is the case. So I didn't know WHAT the story was which is why I posted originally to see if anyone else had experience with a situation like this. So my "whining" had more to do with my ignorance on this topic. I BELIEVE that worker's comp. coverage is mandatory for businesses like ours so my complaints about paying a non-working employee were irrelevant.
I would also like to point out that a one-handed employee could be very dangerous to herself and others. So I had concerns in that realm as well.
AND, I am also free to cut this woman's hours as I see fit--- she is part-time (by her choice) and she works hours according to how much work (framing) there is to do. She does not do any work other than framing (such as computer/bookkeeping etc,) by her choice as well, so that limited our options also.
And it is not crap about employers whining about overhead and employee goof-ups-- IT IS REALITY. It is a BIG part of our job as employers and entrepreneurs--- sometimes I feel as if my job is strictly cleaning up messes!! It is overwhelming but if I weren't so good at it, I'd sell the business tommorrow. If you are still interested in being a business owner someday, be aware that these concerns are a big deal. The psychological and financial liabilities that business owners must shoulder are intense. Believe me (and please do not consider my comments condescending) that the stresses you face as an employee are NOTHING compared to those of a small business owner. So, yeah, we will whine now and then.
And I passionately believe that employers have the right to expect employees to "go the extra mile," to deal with angry customers, to cover my Goddess butt, to attract customers and nurture professional relationships with them, to make money for us. That IS what we pay them for. That is why I hire the people that I do.
BUT
BUT
BUT
On the flip side I think that employees have the right as well to EXPECT to be appreciated (profusely and frequently) by their employers. This means appreciation in word and deed and cashmoney and benefits.
And if you ever have a boss who does not appreciate your extra efforts (as I suspect may be the case now,) I would encourage you to MOVE ON, get a new job before you jeopardize your reputation and your boss's business by moonlighting. I do not believe that it is ever justified.
I have never expected any employee to get up and applaud whenever they got paid before (or instead of) me. They never even knew that this was the case. This was only an example of one of the unique stresses that small business owners face.
So, please forgive my uncharacteristic (yeah, right...!) rambling, but my hormonal phase continues...
-Edie the Framing Goddess
Audrey, I see that you have taken the opportunity to "Grumble" indeed! And your post should be a wake-up call to all of us who wear the employer hat.
I am glad that you realize that attitudes change when you are both an employer and employee, and I am not at all surprised that you do not approve of employee "moonlighting." Any good employee would feel the same, IMHO.
But I must address the comment you made about "my employee injured himself at work- can I cut his hours..."because that was my comment. And, yes, I was whining just a little bit. (Grumbling?) But I need to point out that this employee is still out with her injury and she is being paid approx. 72% of her regular salary by worker's comp.while she is authorized-no-ORDERED by her doctor to keep her hand immobilized. But it is not at all clear in Worker's comp. literature that this is the case. So I didn't know WHAT the story was which is why I posted originally to see if anyone else had experience with a situation like this. So my "whining" had more to do with my ignorance on this topic. I BELIEVE that worker's comp. coverage is mandatory for businesses like ours so my complaints about paying a non-working employee were irrelevant.
I would also like to point out that a one-handed employee could be very dangerous to herself and others. So I had concerns in that realm as well.
AND, I am also free to cut this woman's hours as I see fit--- she is part-time (by her choice) and she works hours according to how much work (framing) there is to do. She does not do any work other than framing (such as computer/bookkeeping etc,) by her choice as well, so that limited our options also.
And it is not crap about employers whining about overhead and employee goof-ups-- IT IS REALITY. It is a BIG part of our job as employers and entrepreneurs--- sometimes I feel as if my job is strictly cleaning up messes!! It is overwhelming but if I weren't so good at it, I'd sell the business tommorrow. If you are still interested in being a business owner someday, be aware that these concerns are a big deal. The psychological and financial liabilities that business owners must shoulder are intense. Believe me (and please do not consider my comments condescending) that the stresses you face as an employee are NOTHING compared to those of a small business owner. So, yeah, we will whine now and then.
And I passionately believe that employers have the right to expect employees to "go the extra mile," to deal with angry customers, to cover my Goddess butt, to attract customers and nurture professional relationships with them, to make money for us. That IS what we pay them for. That is why I hire the people that I do.
BUT
BUT
BUT
On the flip side I think that employees have the right as well to EXPECT to be appreciated (profusely and frequently) by their employers. This means appreciation in word and deed and cashmoney and benefits.
And if you ever have a boss who does not appreciate your extra efforts (as I suspect may be the case now,) I would encourage you to MOVE ON, get a new job before you jeopardize your reputation and your boss's business by moonlighting. I do not believe that it is ever justified.
I have never expected any employee to get up and applaud whenever they got paid before (or instead of) me. They never even knew that this was the case. This was only an example of one of the unique stresses that small business owners face.
So, please forgive my uncharacteristic (yeah, right...!) rambling, but my hormonal phase continues...
-Edie the Framing Goddess
C
Charles Lowry
Guest
Well, Audrey, you read my mind. (It's a short read, at best!)
You said everything I was going to say. Thanks, framer, for opening this thread.
I am not an employee, either. I am a co-owner, and an employee of a part-time high school girl. There are some things I would try and put into practice were I a big-time employer, though. There are some statements and comments that have been made recently that have gotten my attention.
"Certainly the boss needs some piece of the pie. After all it was his advertising, his customer, you were on his payroll and you would not have had the opportunity to even discuss the project if you weren't working for him."
Again, I say, based on the above, and the fact that Rick's boss wasn't in the miniature business, why was the boss entitled to a 'piece of the pie'? If the lady had come in and asked Rick to repair her plumbing, or rebuild the engine in her mini-van, would the boss have been entitled to a piece of THAT pie as well? Rick's talents exceed the bounds of framing, and he should not be obliged to cut his boss in on anything that doesn't come under the purview of his job.
The other thing that sticks in my craw is this 'we pay the employees first'. Duh...That's been going on for hundreds of years. That doesn't make the boss King Magnanimous the First. If you're losing money, you need to look at YOUR problems. Don't whine because you have to pay your employees. That's what you hired them for. To pay them to make you money, as Audrey has so stated.
Kathy's situation also brought some interesting views from employers. I have read thread after thread where the same ones that posted on her thread advised, in the strongest possible terms, for wannabe framers to go to work in a frame shop and get experience before they open their own shop. Logic dictates that if they are advising newbies so, they are condoning their learning at a shop while planning to open their own. Yet, there have been comments by the same employers that that was 'unethical'. So why do you suggest it?
If my part-time girl asked me if she could frame something for her mother's birthday, I would give her the mat(s), allow her to use the cutter, and probably sell her the moulding at my cost. (I feel a collective shudder running thru the bosses) She is an exemplary employee, and I am not so greedy as to sit down and figure out how I can make money off her honest desire to do something nice for her mom. How many of your 32X40 mats aren't paid for when you cut an 11X14 mat out of it for a customer? My experience as an employee was, if you treat your employees good, they'll bust their butts to treat you good. Treat them shabby, and, if their IQ's are higher than room temperature, you'd better look out. Especially if YOU know better.
As for the assertion that a nurse would respond in something other than a helpful way to a question about home care, or natural healing, I charge you to try it. I suspect you will find that they will be open and honest with you. They may have insight to that sort of health care, or they may tell you they don't know and suggest you see a doctor before starting down that path. I don't believe they would react the way the folks did that went after Kathy, and that's what they did, calling her ethics into question.
As for moonlighting as spelled out in the moonlighting thread. I agree. There was a clear conflict of interest there, and an undermining of the employee-employer relationship.
I think a lot of employers ought to reevaluate their positions on employees. It should be a mutually beneficial 'partnership' wherein the employee wants to do a good job, and further the boss's income, in hopes of enhancing their own. Not to be cast a crust of bread and admonished to work hard and don't whine.
Lastly, cheers to wpfay for his attitude on Rick's question. He shows insight and an appreciation for his employees talents, and is willing to reward him.
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May all your corners join without sanding
You said everything I was going to say. Thanks, framer, for opening this thread.
I am not an employee, either. I am a co-owner, and an employee of a part-time high school girl. There are some things I would try and put into practice were I a big-time employer, though. There are some statements and comments that have been made recently that have gotten my attention.
"Certainly the boss needs some piece of the pie. After all it was his advertising, his customer, you were on his payroll and you would not have had the opportunity to even discuss the project if you weren't working for him."
Again, I say, based on the above, and the fact that Rick's boss wasn't in the miniature business, why was the boss entitled to a 'piece of the pie'? If the lady had come in and asked Rick to repair her plumbing, or rebuild the engine in her mini-van, would the boss have been entitled to a piece of THAT pie as well? Rick's talents exceed the bounds of framing, and he should not be obliged to cut his boss in on anything that doesn't come under the purview of his job.
The other thing that sticks in my craw is this 'we pay the employees first'. Duh...That's been going on for hundreds of years. That doesn't make the boss King Magnanimous the First. If you're losing money, you need to look at YOUR problems. Don't whine because you have to pay your employees. That's what you hired them for. To pay them to make you money, as Audrey has so stated.
Kathy's situation also brought some interesting views from employers. I have read thread after thread where the same ones that posted on her thread advised, in the strongest possible terms, for wannabe framers to go to work in a frame shop and get experience before they open their own shop. Logic dictates that if they are advising newbies so, they are condoning their learning at a shop while planning to open their own. Yet, there have been comments by the same employers that that was 'unethical'. So why do you suggest it?
If my part-time girl asked me if she could frame something for her mother's birthday, I would give her the mat(s), allow her to use the cutter, and probably sell her the moulding at my cost. (I feel a collective shudder running thru the bosses) She is an exemplary employee, and I am not so greedy as to sit down and figure out how I can make money off her honest desire to do something nice for her mom. How many of your 32X40 mats aren't paid for when you cut an 11X14 mat out of it for a customer? My experience as an employee was, if you treat your employees good, they'll bust their butts to treat you good. Treat them shabby, and, if their IQ's are higher than room temperature, you'd better look out. Especially if YOU know better.
As for the assertion that a nurse would respond in something other than a helpful way to a question about home care, or natural healing, I charge you to try it. I suspect you will find that they will be open and honest with you. They may have insight to that sort of health care, or they may tell you they don't know and suggest you see a doctor before starting down that path. I don't believe they would react the way the folks did that went after Kathy, and that's what they did, calling her ethics into question.
As for moonlighting as spelled out in the moonlighting thread. I agree. There was a clear conflict of interest there, and an undermining of the employee-employer relationship.
I think a lot of employers ought to reevaluate their positions on employees. It should be a mutually beneficial 'partnership' wherein the employee wants to do a good job, and further the boss's income, in hopes of enhancing their own. Not to be cast a crust of bread and admonished to work hard and don't whine.
Lastly, cheers to wpfay for his attitude on Rick's question. He shows insight and an appreciation for his employees talents, and is willing to reward him.
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May all your corners join without sanding
A
Audrey
Guest
Edie--
Thank you.
You are one of my favorite Grumblers--and since you're not my boss I'm not kissing your ass...LOL....because you do not dismiss out of hand what other people say just because you don't agree with it.
Let me just say (like I ever "just say" anything....
) that my observations on management and owners are not directed specifically at my current one--although he could certainly use an attitude adjustment from time to time....
My "beef" with employers is that most of them forget where they came from the MOMENT they put on that "employer/owner/manager" hat, and it pisses me off. I'm expected to understand where THEY'RE coming from--I'm expected to sympathize with their bottom line, their sales, their issues and their problems--and yet they never seem to want to hear or understand whatever I bring up. The difference? I've never been an owner, or an employer. But THEY'VE been employees. So while there may be things I don't understand about their job, there should be nothing they don't understand about mine....and yet I see this selective memory wherever I go.
And as for overhead and employee mistakes being "serious," I know they are. But my employer's overhead is not my problem, and employee mistakes should be factored into it anyway, because they are human nature. Everyone screws up, and no matter how good you are, you're going to have "one of those days." If someone screws up over and over and over again, without improvement, fire them. End of story. But the little day to day errors are just part of owning a business, and hiring human beings to work there; they're going to happen. Acting like each one is a major calamity is silly; as a waitress I would occasionally drop plates, forget someone's order, bring a customer Diet instead of regular, whatever. As a framer I occasionally overcut, cut regular instead of non-glare, mismeasure a multi-opening, etc.
I don't think any of these things qualify me as a bad employee; I work very hard and usually very well. But I find that the latter is rarely mentioned, while the former gets a **** of a lot of attention.
My point is that employers need to remember that a good employee will make you far more money than they will ever cost you, and that acting like they are nothing but a pain in the ass, a potential thief, and a liability is a sure-fire way to destroy loyalty and quality work. My employer requires respect from me; I expect the same from him. End of story.
So Edie, while I wish you were my boss, you are not.
And, from an employee's standpoint, it is just as hard to find a good employer as it is a good employee. So while all the employers are moaning about bad employees, remember that you, the employer, may not measure up so well either.
------------------
I don't care what color your sofa is.
Thank you.
Let me just say (like I ever "just say" anything....
My "beef" with employers is that most of them forget where they came from the MOMENT they put on that "employer/owner/manager" hat, and it pisses me off. I'm expected to understand where THEY'RE coming from--I'm expected to sympathize with their bottom line, their sales, their issues and their problems--and yet they never seem to want to hear or understand whatever I bring up. The difference? I've never been an owner, or an employer. But THEY'VE been employees. So while there may be things I don't understand about their job, there should be nothing they don't understand about mine....and yet I see this selective memory wherever I go.
And as for overhead and employee mistakes being "serious," I know they are. But my employer's overhead is not my problem, and employee mistakes should be factored into it anyway, because they are human nature. Everyone screws up, and no matter how good you are, you're going to have "one of those days." If someone screws up over and over and over again, without improvement, fire them. End of story. But the little day to day errors are just part of owning a business, and hiring human beings to work there; they're going to happen. Acting like each one is a major calamity is silly; as a waitress I would occasionally drop plates, forget someone's order, bring a customer Diet instead of regular, whatever. As a framer I occasionally overcut, cut regular instead of non-glare, mismeasure a multi-opening, etc.
I don't think any of these things qualify me as a bad employee; I work very hard and usually very well. But I find that the latter is rarely mentioned, while the former gets a **** of a lot of attention.
My point is that employers need to remember that a good employee will make you far more money than they will ever cost you, and that acting like they are nothing but a pain in the ass, a potential thief, and a liability is a sure-fire way to destroy loyalty and quality work. My employer requires respect from me; I expect the same from him. End of story.
So Edie, while I wish you were my boss, you are not.
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
As an employer, I am butting out of this thread,as per Framers request. Other employers should do the same. Technically, since I'm a Corporation, I'm an employee, I'm still butting out.
Please, let the employees sound off, we might learn something.
John
Please, let the employees sound off, we might learn something.
John
"My most fervent hope is for any employee that has all the answers to quickly become an employeer. I can't think of any sweeter revenge. But until then, don't tell me how to do it;Show me how to do it."
The above quote by Bob Carter is from another topic....ahhh, if only we could all still be around to see this come about. Sweet revenge.
I became an employee this January after nineteen years as an employer. I am so happy to be a lowly employee once again. I appreciate every tiny decision my employer has to make.
I still can't break the habit of getting up early everyday, but now I have those hours to myself rather than having to spend them at the store doing things that have to be done during the time the store was closed. I get home at least 2 hours earlier than I did as an owner. I now work only 5 days a week, and I get 2 days off in which I don't give a thought to work.
As an employer there were no hours at all, not ever, that work didn't somehow creep into my thoughts. Oh, I do make a little less money, not much less, it is not true that employers hoard all the profits themselves, most of what the business makes goes back into the business.
I've always found that when employees (speaking both as an employer and an employee) start complaining about their employers, it is time for them to move on. At that point you've stopped growing, reached a dead end. It will be a great relief to both the employer and the employee to remedy the situation. Go to another shop, another line of work, get some education and move up the corporate ladder somewhere. Being happy in your work is possible. Ask the nurse who posted about the ponytail why she isn't staying in nursing, I can promise you she made far more in nursing than she ever will as a frame shop employee. Money is not everything, health and happiness are everything.
BTW, Charles, I thought you were an employer, not a frame shop employee.
The above quote by Bob Carter is from another topic....ahhh, if only we could all still be around to see this come about. Sweet revenge.
I became an employee this January after nineteen years as an employer. I am so happy to be a lowly employee once again. I appreciate every tiny decision my employer has to make.
I still can't break the habit of getting up early everyday, but now I have those hours to myself rather than having to spend them at the store doing things that have to be done during the time the store was closed. I get home at least 2 hours earlier than I did as an owner. I now work only 5 days a week, and I get 2 days off in which I don't give a thought to work.
As an employer there were no hours at all, not ever, that work didn't somehow creep into my thoughts. Oh, I do make a little less money, not much less, it is not true that employers hoard all the profits themselves, most of what the business makes goes back into the business.
I've always found that when employees (speaking both as an employer and an employee) start complaining about their employers, it is time for them to move on. At that point you've stopped growing, reached a dead end. It will be a great relief to both the employer and the employee to remedy the situation. Go to another shop, another line of work, get some education and move up the corporate ladder somewhere. Being happy in your work is possible. Ask the nurse who posted about the ponytail why she isn't staying in nursing, I can promise you she made far more in nursing than she ever will as a frame shop employee. Money is not everything, health and happiness are everything.
BTW, Charles, I thought you were an employer, not a frame shop employee.
Framing Goddess
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Somehow, I think this thread may well be a discussion NOT about employers/employees, but perhaps small business...
Audrey says:
"My "beef" with employers is that most of them forget where they came from the MOMENT they put on that "employer/owner/manager" hat, and it pisses me off. I'm expected to understand where THEY'RE coming from--I'm expected to sympathize with their bottom line, their sales, their issues and their problems--and yet they never seem to want to hear or understand whatever I bring up. The difference? I've never been an owner, or an employer. But THEY'VE been employees. So while there may be things I don't understand about their job, there should be nothing they don't understand about mine....and yet I see this selective memory wherever I go."
I would hope that employers do not expect their employees to do the worrying about the proprietorial aspects of the business, but I do expect my employees to understand issues that will directly affect their job. I think in a small business, employees WILL have more information about the day-to-day of their employer's job-- this could be very stressful to the employee that "internalizes" situations that maybe just require awareness. I am constantly revising/censoring info about my business that I reveal to my employees. Some issues are important for them to know about because they can have a positive effect and some issues are strictly within my jurisdiction. But the trouble comes when there is an idiot in the picture! And I mean if the boss is an idiot! I have worked for idiots! In a small business it is important for the employer to understand issues important to their employees and sympathize with their workday (and otherwise!)woes. You nailed it Audrey, when you said "mutual respect." Charles, "mutually beneficial partnership" says it nicely as well. And it is painfully true that employers often do not measure up. That is why your posts are such valuable and uncensored wake-up calls for us employers. I have always felt that employees should interview employers to see if they "qualify!" And all of us employers know that the job market does indeed fluctuate enough for this reversal to take place regularly.
Everything is "magnified" and therefore so much more immediate in a small business. That is, in fact, why we have to insist on excellence from our employees. An incompetent employee can sink a small business in a shockingly short time and even an average employee will be harshly judged by customers eventually ("They're nicer at that other place...") And an idiot boss..? That's a guarantee for failure.
But that is the upside as well! I LOVELOVELOVELOVE that positive change can happen in an instant in a small business. No BS "interoffice memos on a policy change in triplicate-make sure HR gets a copy for their file..." I love it when an employee sees something that I do not, tells me AND (I love this part) suggests a sensible and simple solution! I never cease to be wow'ed by such initiative and intelligence. In a large corporation, such behavior is not typically tolerated let alone encouraged.
And Charles, I do not think that paying employees first (actually the IRS gets paid first...!) makes me Big! (I was The Goddess long before that!!)(AND that would be QUEEN Magnanimous The First ;-D) And if and when that does happen, like I said, my employees do not know. AND, further, it does not mean that my business is losing money. It could merely mean that I have chosen to reinvest in the business that particular week. Yeah, if that happens too many times, my business is in trouble, but not always.
And about "choices" here...
I did indeed make a choice about being a business owner and Audrey, I wouldn't trade jobs with you for anything! (Knock on wood...) the challenges my job has to offer are far less stressful FOR ME than yours would be. I NEED to have the immediate control over my work situation, that satisfaction is necessary for my mental health and fulfillment. (at least for this moment...!)Perhaps you are like me in that way! I seem to recognize a bit of the frustration that you are expressing...
Jo, thanks for the perspective!
(sorry John!...)
-Edie the FG
Audrey says:
"My "beef" with employers is that most of them forget where they came from the MOMENT they put on that "employer/owner/manager" hat, and it pisses me off. I'm expected to understand where THEY'RE coming from--I'm expected to sympathize with their bottom line, their sales, their issues and their problems--and yet they never seem to want to hear or understand whatever I bring up. The difference? I've never been an owner, or an employer. But THEY'VE been employees. So while there may be things I don't understand about their job, there should be nothing they don't understand about mine....and yet I see this selective memory wherever I go."
I would hope that employers do not expect their employees to do the worrying about the proprietorial aspects of the business, but I do expect my employees to understand issues that will directly affect their job. I think in a small business, employees WILL have more information about the day-to-day of their employer's job-- this could be very stressful to the employee that "internalizes" situations that maybe just require awareness. I am constantly revising/censoring info about my business that I reveal to my employees. Some issues are important for them to know about because they can have a positive effect and some issues are strictly within my jurisdiction. But the trouble comes when there is an idiot in the picture! And I mean if the boss is an idiot! I have worked for idiots! In a small business it is important for the employer to understand issues important to their employees and sympathize with their workday (and otherwise!)woes. You nailed it Audrey, when you said "mutual respect." Charles, "mutually beneficial partnership" says it nicely as well. And it is painfully true that employers often do not measure up. That is why your posts are such valuable and uncensored wake-up calls for us employers. I have always felt that employees should interview employers to see if they "qualify!" And all of us employers know that the job market does indeed fluctuate enough for this reversal to take place regularly.
Everything is "magnified" and therefore so much more immediate in a small business. That is, in fact, why we have to insist on excellence from our employees. An incompetent employee can sink a small business in a shockingly short time and even an average employee will be harshly judged by customers eventually ("They're nicer at that other place...") And an idiot boss..? That's a guarantee for failure.
But that is the upside as well! I LOVELOVELOVELOVE that positive change can happen in an instant in a small business. No BS "interoffice memos on a policy change in triplicate-make sure HR gets a copy for their file..." I love it when an employee sees something that I do not, tells me AND (I love this part) suggests a sensible and simple solution! I never cease to be wow'ed by such initiative and intelligence. In a large corporation, such behavior is not typically tolerated let alone encouraged.
And Charles, I do not think that paying employees first (actually the IRS gets paid first...!) makes me Big! (I was The Goddess long before that!!)(AND that would be QUEEN Magnanimous The First ;-D) And if and when that does happen, like I said, my employees do not know. AND, further, it does not mean that my business is losing money. It could merely mean that I have chosen to reinvest in the business that particular week. Yeah, if that happens too many times, my business is in trouble, but not always.
And about "choices" here...
I did indeed make a choice about being a business owner and Audrey, I wouldn't trade jobs with you for anything! (Knock on wood...) the challenges my job has to offer are far less stressful FOR ME than yours would be. I NEED to have the immediate control over my work situation, that satisfaction is necessary for my mental health and fulfillment. (at least for this moment...!)Perhaps you are like me in that way! I seem to recognize a bit of the frustration that you are expressing...
Jo, thanks for the perspective!
(sorry John!...)
-Edie the FG
C
Charles Lowry
Guest
jframe, I think I mentioned that I am a co-owner. I employ a high-school senior part-time.
I also think I have commented my last time on employees/employers. It is apparent that Audrey has the right idea. SOME of the employers on the Grumble are arrogant and condescending. If that's the attitude necessary to be a 'successful' employer, then I don't want any part of it.
I am, however, paid by our business, so that makes me an employee, as well.
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May all your corners join without sanding
I also think I have commented my last time on employees/employers. It is apparent that Audrey has the right idea. SOME of the employers on the Grumble are arrogant and condescending. If that's the attitude necessary to be a 'successful' employer, then I don't want any part of it.
I am, however, paid by our business, so that makes me an employee, as well.
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May all your corners join without sanding
Don't.
If an employer is thick enough to not have a clause covering this in their Policies and Procedures manual then they are fair game for un-ethical employees.
As for employers who think employees veiws are not up the standard of themselves.... hmmph, well.
If an employer is thick enough to not have a clause covering this in their Policies and Procedures manual then they are fair game for un-ethical employees.
As for employers who think employees veiws are not up the standard of themselves.... hmmph, well.
A
Audrey
Guest
Goddess--
I admire your open-mindedness, and appreciate your honest response to my posts.
I can be a little hot-headed at times--as if that's not obvious! LOL--but I don't think I'm any less entitled to my opinions than those who think they have "earned" the right to theirs because they own a business. And as long as my boss respects the work I do and the effort I put forth every day, I think everything else is secondary.
Also thank you Charles...your posts always brighten my mood. Tell Janet she is lucky to have you.
And I know, you are lucky to have Janet as well....the two of you are some of my favorite Grumblers. Especially when you are both posting on the same thread....I look forward to those immensely.
It's impossible to have a group of people this size without egos and opinions clashing, but I learn something every day I come here...if not about framing, than about human nature.
All of which is educational.
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
I admire your open-mindedness, and appreciate your honest response to my posts.
Also thank you Charles...your posts always brighten my mood. Tell Janet she is lucky to have you.
It's impossible to have a group of people this size without egos and opinions clashing, but I learn something every day I come here...if not about framing, than about human nature.
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2000
- Posts
- 17,028
What do you say we have a cease-fire on this issue. A little truce, maybe? By the way, Audrey, when you do open your store(and I hope you do), be sure and let me know. On one of my restaurant visits, I promise to drop in. Tell then, can we let the dust settle?
C
Charles Lowry
Guest
Bob, I wholeheartedly agree with you. It's going nowhere but 'round and 'round. Let's all preserve the relationships we've worked hard at building on the Grumble. We all either pay or get paid, and the thing to not lose sight of is to do the damn best we can for our employers and employees. However, the customers figure in there as well. Without them, neither of us would be in business long. I, for one, plan to stick to framing/business improvment topics from now on. (Unless Krispy Kreems come up again)
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May all your corners join without sanding
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May all your corners join without sanding
sumik
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Sounds like you want to end this thread. But since I just tuned in may I make some comments? First, several years ago I worked for someone who left the store mostly to me. So after a few months I thought "Gee ,I might as well be working for myself" So I did.But, I had no money! But I payed bills on time for the year I was in business. But I have always felt bad that they thought that I used them to learn or get information. It really wasn't like that. My question now is my current boss has left everything to me. Yes, I mean everything except paying bills. And she doesn't even do that until I tell her that they are calling to collect, or that they wont make a delivery without a check waiting. Am I being an ungrateful employee for resenting this? I feel that they pay me fairly. And even added paid holidays and insurance after 3 years. But sometimes I get so angry having to cover for her that I could scream! Also, on occasion I will do some framing for myself. Since I don't take a lunch break, I thought that taking a half hour to mat something wasn't so bad. Am I wrong? I am a very honest person, but now I feel a little guilty. Any thoughts? By the way, I know my boss won't see this because she is in the Bahamas this week. ( coarse, I haven't taken a vacation or sick day in 3 1/2 years. Who would run the store.) Plus even though I have told her a million times about how great the Grumble is, she's never looked. Phew! I think I feel better now.
R
Rick
Guest
Employers, be prepared to have some knowledge dropped on you. I know your reading this.
In my bartending days, I had just got hired at this up-scale billards hall and met the main owner at the grand opening. I was the head bartender so we he pulled my aside and gave me his motto on running a bar.
He told me there are two kinds of bartenders. The ones that steal alittle and the ones who steal alot. As long as I gave him the liquor and beer costs he wanted, he really didn't care how I did it. If the bar was full and the numbers were right, I was doing my job. The more accurate I was, the more liquor I could promo to my regulars.
The genius was in the balance. He knew an empty bar with a perfect liquor costs didn't serve either of use any good.
I hope the gripes the employers have in here do not set the tone of the shop they run. I know this the Grumble and this is were we air everything out but I hear alot of fear of evil employees from some of you. Let me just remind you that a honest employee who is treated like a potential crook will eventualy prove you right. Business is like a marriage, you have to both give alittle.
If you have to make every red cent you can from your employees and treat them like criminals, they will eventualy quit or rip you off just to spite you.
Letting your workers make some money on the side now and then is alot cheaper than signing bonus checks.
Most employees of frame shop just make enough money to pay there bills and work in the industry for the passion artwork or to learn enough to go out on there own someday. It is cheaper to spread the wealth now and then or constantly retrain new help. I don't know very many framers that retired as employees.
If you want proof, here it is.
There is a frame shop in San Antonio named Kirk Youngbloods Frame and Art. From what I heard he was one quality ******* to his employees. He would show up from time to time and yell at all of the employees and accuse them of stealing and being lazy and then leave agian.
To make a long story short, Gary his manager, kept his mouth shut for four years and took all his bosses lashings. In 1997, he opened his own gallery. Youngbloods was the most north shop in San Antonio so Gary opened just abit more North in a growing part of San Antnio. Since Kirk was never at his own shop, more than half of his clients followed Gary to his new shop knowing he was the brains behind the shop.
The kicker was that the rest of the employees at Kirk's wanted to leave too so they refered Kirk's clients to Gary's shop so he could build enough clients to hire them too. Evil but true.
I really don't agree with what they did, but it's hard to simpathize with an owner had already labeled all of them lazy and crooks.
My signature also applies to employees.
Rick.
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If you don't take care of your tools, they won't take care of you.
In my bartending days, I had just got hired at this up-scale billards hall and met the main owner at the grand opening. I was the head bartender so we he pulled my aside and gave me his motto on running a bar.
He told me there are two kinds of bartenders. The ones that steal alittle and the ones who steal alot. As long as I gave him the liquor and beer costs he wanted, he really didn't care how I did it. If the bar was full and the numbers were right, I was doing my job. The more accurate I was, the more liquor I could promo to my regulars.
The genius was in the balance. He knew an empty bar with a perfect liquor costs didn't serve either of use any good.
I hope the gripes the employers have in here do not set the tone of the shop they run. I know this the Grumble and this is were we air everything out but I hear alot of fear of evil employees from some of you. Let me just remind you that a honest employee who is treated like a potential crook will eventualy prove you right. Business is like a marriage, you have to both give alittle.
If you have to make every red cent you can from your employees and treat them like criminals, they will eventualy quit or rip you off just to spite you.
Letting your workers make some money on the side now and then is alot cheaper than signing bonus checks.
Most employees of frame shop just make enough money to pay there bills and work in the industry for the passion artwork or to learn enough to go out on there own someday. It is cheaper to spread the wealth now and then or constantly retrain new help. I don't know very many framers that retired as employees.
If you want proof, here it is.
There is a frame shop in San Antonio named Kirk Youngbloods Frame and Art. From what I heard he was one quality ******* to his employees. He would show up from time to time and yell at all of the employees and accuse them of stealing and being lazy and then leave agian.
To make a long story short, Gary his manager, kept his mouth shut for four years and took all his bosses lashings. In 1997, he opened his own gallery. Youngbloods was the most north shop in San Antonio so Gary opened just abit more North in a growing part of San Antnio. Since Kirk was never at his own shop, more than half of his clients followed Gary to his new shop knowing he was the brains behind the shop.
The kicker was that the rest of the employees at Kirk's wanted to leave too so they refered Kirk's clients to Gary's shop so he could build enough clients to hire them too. Evil but true.
I really don't agree with what they did, but it's hard to simpathize with an owner had already labeled all of them lazy and crooks.
My signature also applies to employees.
Rick.
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If you don't take care of your tools, they won't take care of you.
A
Audrey
Guest
Bob--
It requires every scrap of grace my mother ever tried to instill in me for me to let the topic go....just because all the employees respectfully avoided your own thread on moonlighting, and then you invaded ours, and have basically decided to end it. Which doesn't seem particularly fair, when you have already had your say on your own thread, and you are not even supposed to be here.
But I realize when a debate becomes a line in the sand, so I will gracefully bow out. It was never my intention to alienate anyone on the Grumble...I just like airing my own opinion as much as the next guy....LOL
So if you promise me your very best chicken fried steak, I may forgive you.
Extra gravy, please?
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
It requires every scrap of grace my mother ever tried to instill in me for me to let the topic go....just because all the employees respectfully avoided your own thread on moonlighting, and then you invaded ours, and have basically decided to end it. Which doesn't seem particularly fair, when you have already had your say on your own thread, and you are not even supposed to be here.
But I realize when a debate becomes a line in the sand, so I will gracefully bow out. It was never my intention to alienate anyone on the Grumble...I just like airing my own opinion as much as the next guy....LOL
So if you promise me your very best chicken fried steak, I may forgive you.
Extra gravy, please?
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
Audrey: It's not over until the fat lady sings.
I did find it most interesting that the first and second - to table the thread, came from the "employer party".
Is this the first real political split on the grumble?
I hope the employees have more to say.
I did find it most interesting that the first and second - to table the thread, came from the "employer party".
Is this the first real political split on the grumble?
I hope the employees have more to say.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2000
- Posts
- 17,028
Guys-Continue the debate, drop the hate. the direction is what I was calling a truce on, not the idea. It was getting ugly, and none of us should want that. Valid points always welcome, but in a more civil tone. We all need to respect each others position more than has been expressed here.
Audrey- a double with extra gravy is on the house, just tell me when and where.
Audrey- a double with extra gravy is on the house, just tell me when and where.
I'm an employer, I think Bob showed unmitigated gall stepping into this thread and suggesting it be ended.
I'll say it again, employers, stay out of this thread.
Let the employees have it. You do not have to defend yourselves and you don't have to pretend your an employee. If your an owner, your an employer, period.
Do like Framer said, "Employees Only"
John
I'll say it again, employers, stay out of this thread.
Let the employees have it. You do not have to defend yourselves and you don't have to pretend your an employee. If your an owner, your an employer, period.
Do like Framer said, "Employees Only"
John
Framing Goddess
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Ah, another employer post here... The Goddess is desperately trying to respect boundaries...
This has been a very enlightening thread. It inspired me to think about employer/employee issues that all too readily get pushed aside during the course of just trying to run a business. It has also emphasized the importance of clearly communicating with your staff/boss exactly what it is you expect from the "partnership." Even something as trivial as cutting a mat at "lunchtime!" (Sumik, that would be fine in my shop.)
And Sumik,
YESYESYES, i would be a bit resentful also if my boss left fielding "bill collecter" calls to me while she were in the Bahamas! I think she is the one that should being getting the guilt twinges.
Okay The Goddess MUST get back to work now but she enjoyed every minute of this exchange.
(Bob, thanks for the truce clarification, btw)
Edie the FG
This has been a very enlightening thread. It inspired me to think about employer/employee issues that all too readily get pushed aside during the course of just trying to run a business. It has also emphasized the importance of clearly communicating with your staff/boss exactly what it is you expect from the "partnership." Even something as trivial as cutting a mat at "lunchtime!" (Sumik, that would be fine in my shop.)
And Sumik,
YESYESYES, i would be a bit resentful also if my boss left fielding "bill collecter" calls to me while she were in the Bahamas! I think she is the one that should being getting the guilt twinges.
Okay The Goddess MUST get back to work now but she enjoyed every minute of this exchange.
(Bob, thanks for the truce clarification, btw)
Edie the FG
Frame Harbor
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
To employers posting in here,
Let's not control this thread in any way, shape or form. For once employees have a saying of their own and we better take notes than try to make them behave one way or the other. Bad/ugly is what bad/ugly does. If there is frustration and humiliation out there, let it surface as is.
We, employers, act in the forum as if we are the most polite, knowledgeable and generous people on Earth, according to the rule: "if you have nothing good to say, don't say it". Well, if you don't want to know the hurtful truth, close your eyes and pad your ears, but that true fact is still gonna be there for others to be seen and debated behind your back.
Audrey, I know you were joking with Bob about him buying your silence. But you were joking about another sad reality that transcends our narrow framing world: the powerful being always able to silence the weak, one way or the other, buy protection and bend justice in his favor. At least, in this forum, everybody's voice can be heard. Do not misuse the little power you have. Tomorrow you'll concede again to your Bob Carter-Framing Goddesse-Frame Harbor type of boss but now, and hear, you are free and equal to every one of us. Just be yourself and say what's in your mind. Be gutsy.
I was using Audray's name but I am addressing all current and future employees out there.
[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited March 30, 2001).]
Let's not control this thread in any way, shape or form. For once employees have a saying of their own and we better take notes than try to make them behave one way or the other. Bad/ugly is what bad/ugly does. If there is frustration and humiliation out there, let it surface as is.
We, employers, act in the forum as if we are the most polite, knowledgeable and generous people on Earth, according to the rule: "if you have nothing good to say, don't say it". Well, if you don't want to know the hurtful truth, close your eyes and pad your ears, but that true fact is still gonna be there for others to be seen and debated behind your back.
Audrey, I know you were joking with Bob about him buying your silence. But you were joking about another sad reality that transcends our narrow framing world: the powerful being always able to silence the weak, one way or the other, buy protection and bend justice in his favor. At least, in this forum, everybody's voice can be heard. Do not misuse the little power you have. Tomorrow you'll concede again to your Bob Carter-Framing Goddesse-Frame Harbor type of boss but now, and hear, you are free and equal to every one of us. Just be yourself and say what's in your mind. Be gutsy.
I was using Audray's name but I am addressing all current and future employees out there.
[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited March 30, 2001).]
Where is ZORRO when you need him?
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
Frame Harbor
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
At the McDonalds for a Big Mac with French fries and lots of ketchup
[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited March 30, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited March 30, 2001).]
I've seen the "Z" in the sky and I am here. Framing Goddess, you do go on and on don't you. Keep it up and I will have to come and cut your golden locks down to the dark roots. It's very evident that your employee's didn't give you your name. EMPLOYEE"S ONLY PLEASE!!!!
Okay "Z"-Man give me the sword and go to your cave.
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
A
Audrey
Guest
I think perhaps the problem here is that the number of "active" Grumblers who are owners exceeds the number of employees....and honestly, I think it says something about the kind of employees who are attracted to the Grumble, because I have told everyone at work about it, and not one of them has ever stopped by.
So, not to pat myself on the back excessively,
I think it is an indication of these employees' fondness for the craft that they show up here. This is not, after all, our bread and butter. (I mean, it pays my rent, but so did waitressing, and I never went to a "Waitress Grumble." Actually I think a bar after work was considered our Grumble....but I'm getting off topic here....LOL)
So, in other words, I think I'd be right in assuming that, all in all, the employees who are active Grumblers are among the better employees, for caring enough about their craft to learn more about it "after-hours."
Frame Harbor--
You have a point. LOL Although it would take more than Bob's undoubtedly delicious chicken fried steak to shut me up. You know that. LOL Perhaps there was a slight hostility creeping into the thread; I cannot deny that occasionally what I read makes me mad.
As for a political "divide" on the Grumble, I'd hate to think so, but honestly there are many things I do not say to my boss that I say here--for obvious self-preserving reasons--and perhaps it grates on "employer" ears to hear what their own employees might be thinking. Silence does not always indicate peace and happiness, if you know what I mean. LOL I think a lot of employers get complacent; perhaps that is their right, but it doesn't mean that all is well.
And someone--I forget who--said that they failed to see where all the "employee bashing" had come from, and that they couldn't see what the point of the thread was.
Well, honestly, I've noticed the usual employer arrogance from just about every employer here....it doesn't show up until "employee relations" are mentioned, and then suddenly there's a rift a mile wide between those who pay and those who get paid. Everyone insists that they're a GREAT employer, that they NEVER do any of the things I've mentioned, and that they think, honestly, that I don't know what I'm talking about because I've never walked a mile in their shoes. My original point was very simple: I shouldn't have to; it's not what I get paid for, and honestly it's not the employees' job to justify what their employers do based on "employee inexperience" with owning a business. I have a right to my opinion of my employer, regardless of my experience with his job, and those who think that their own employees do NOT occasionally think what I have said here are wearing blinders.
So anyway, that was my original point, and I'm reaching War and Peace status again, so I'll go now. LOL I do not say any of this to insult any employer here; I've said before that I respect and learn from all of you.
But I stand behind what I have said.
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
So, not to pat myself on the back excessively,
So, in other words, I think I'd be right in assuming that, all in all, the employees who are active Grumblers are among the better employees, for caring enough about their craft to learn more about it "after-hours."
Frame Harbor--
You have a point. LOL Although it would take more than Bob's undoubtedly delicious chicken fried steak to shut me up. You know that. LOL Perhaps there was a slight hostility creeping into the thread; I cannot deny that occasionally what I read makes me mad.
As for a political "divide" on the Grumble, I'd hate to think so, but honestly there are many things I do not say to my boss that I say here--for obvious self-preserving reasons--and perhaps it grates on "employer" ears to hear what their own employees might be thinking. Silence does not always indicate peace and happiness, if you know what I mean. LOL I think a lot of employers get complacent; perhaps that is their right, but it doesn't mean that all is well.
And someone--I forget who--said that they failed to see where all the "employee bashing" had come from, and that they couldn't see what the point of the thread was.
Well, honestly, I've noticed the usual employer arrogance from just about every employer here....it doesn't show up until "employee relations" are mentioned, and then suddenly there's a rift a mile wide between those who pay and those who get paid. Everyone insists that they're a GREAT employer, that they NEVER do any of the things I've mentioned, and that they think, honestly, that I don't know what I'm talking about because I've never walked a mile in their shoes. My original point was very simple: I shouldn't have to; it's not what I get paid for, and honestly it's not the employees' job to justify what their employers do based on "employee inexperience" with owning a business. I have a right to my opinion of my employer, regardless of my experience with his job, and those who think that their own employees do NOT occasionally think what I have said here are wearing blinders.
So anyway, that was my original point, and I'm reaching War and Peace status again, so I'll go now. LOL I do not say any of this to insult any employer here; I've said before that I respect and learn from all of you.
But I stand behind what I have said.
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
- Status