Emibub can you help? Fabric Wrap

Cliff Wilson

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Kathy, I know you took Baer's class so I thought I'd pick on you. ;)

Actually, I suspect (hope) Baer will chime in.

Just wrapped a mat for the THIRD time! It's the under mat so the 3rd one is going to work, because I can cover the spots. yep, spots.

Glue seeping through and leaving dark spots. I'm putting the thinnest coat I can and still covering the mat! It's a burnt orange silk I was given, so maybe it's just too thin, but it doesn't seem any thinner than the other stuff I'm using.

Is there a secret, or am I just still too heavy handed!?

I'm thinking next time with this fabric to let the glue dry then use the heat press to adhere? Will that fair better?
 

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Originally posted by Cliff Wilson:

I'm thinking next time with this fabric to let the glue dry then use the heat press to adhere? Will that fair better?
Yes.
 

Emibub

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Hey Cliff..........As I know it if you are using the PVA glues I would apply the glue the night before and then reactivate it with the press in the morning, if you have a very thin fabric. That may not work if you have silk thought because I think the heat would hurt it. But, if it is a heat safe fabric use heat. I definitely prefer the glue to fusion. Even fusion can melt through thin fabric and leave a shiny spot.

Did that help?
 

Emibub

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Plus.............if you are doing a double mat are you using separate colors where you would need to do them separately? We did a double mat in the class and we attached them and then covered the whole thing in one step.

Don't worry Baer, while you are away I will field all the fabric questions for you since I am now "Baer Certified".
 

Cliff Wilson

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Yes Jerry, using Glue as per the Baer instruction video. Used to use fusion, but this has been faster and "more accurate."

Kathy, It is a double mat with each mat a different material. If my digital camera wasn't broke I'd post ... oh well.

I don't know what the material actually is. (I'm pretty much a dunce with this material stuff.) It was given to me. The slub (correct term?) looks a lot like the linen samples, but it is much thinner.

I may try another mat with the press just to see if it works. For now, I think the job is satisfactory.

It's a 5 x 7 photo with double fabric mat and 2 1/2" leafed moulding. (She insisted that the mat be smaller so the top is 1 1/2 and the reveal is 3/16") With the wider frame it actually looks very nice! I'll take a regular picture and scan it whenever I finish the roll.
 

Jim Miller

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Cliff, I too used to have trouble with adhesives bleeding through silk & other thin fabrics. No more.

Maybe Baer's special adhesive is the best, but I haven't used it yet. I use acrylic medium. Have you tried that as the adhesive for fabrics? Rollor brush it on, let it dry, and then activate it in the heated press. It is thin enough that you can carefully control the coverage, and does not tend to bleed through.

Looking forward to Baer's reply on this issue, which has plagued a lot of us on occasion.
 

Mike LeCompte CPF

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Just a curiousity question: is it cheaper--read "less labor cost"--to have someone like Frank's or Raphael's supply premade fabric wrapped mats or for you to do it yourself? If you're billing at $60 or so per hour labor I often wonder if it's best to leave it to these guys.

Unless, of course, you're wrapping with someone's fabric for a curtain or similar such thing
 

Bob Carter

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Just had Frank's do a wrapped liner with two openings that will hold two 24x36 (horizontal) images.

Wouldn't have touched that in house with a 10ft pole

Even with frieght it was so much more effective than what it would have cost in labor, table space, etc. And can you imagine if we would have had some glue bleed-through

Sometimes we just need to let those "pros" handle these projects and spend our time doing what we do best
 

Baer Charlton

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Kathy nailed it and stuck the landing.

Thin silks such as pongees and shantung can be very nasty for bleed through, and a 175 degree is fine.. only takes a couple of minutes.

One thing that I think Kathy may have missed in the class while she and Pam were making fun of me.... :D , was that the roller of choice for silk, is a "white" foam roller because it is 3 times and dense and leaves a thin coat 1/3 that of the yellow roller.

Dupone [do pon a] silk, is one that has to be layed wet. It is absolutely gorgeous and I even had a tie each made for Frank and myself.

But the nature of Dupone is that it is woven from two "raw" silks. One is very crude and HIGHLY susseptable to heat of ANY kind. Even a warm iron will blister the surface. And the chemicals in 77 will blister it as well.

So Cliff, for things to try:
Go to HD and get a white foam roller.
If that fails; heat press in the morning.
 

Mike LeCompte CPF

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I'd really love an answer to my question, altho Bob probably did already:

Have you folks tracked the time/material cost/inventory costs to do all this? And if so, are you finding it cheaper for YOU to do it, or a Frank's/Raphaels?

I know some of the new "leathers" Raphael's has just introduced are way cool-looking. Doing a 1932 World Series poster with a fabric-wrapped 8-ply using Raphaels with their new leather. Kinda gives the whole thing a real basebally-kinda thing going on.

So, gang, farm it out or do it yourself? Would love a cost analysis
 

Cliff Wilson

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Mike,

Most (like I have a lot) of my wrapping has been with the customers material, but when I did the analysis I though it was roughly equal in cost do-it-myself versus order-finished. (Of course that assumes you do it once not 3 (maybe 4) times!) But, I wind up with enough left over material to probably do another one, so the second one has a little more profit.

The real question has to do with capacity. If you're caught up and have capacity it makes sense to do the work. If you have work backed up, order it finished. (Or, of course somthing like Bob's job is an "order-done."

I just hooked up with a VERY busy custom window treatment shop. I am putting a wrapped liner on a mirror to match the drapes for one of her displays. SHe is convinced this will be VERY big and she estimates she can sell a custom mirror with 30% to 40% of her jobs! This will take awhile, I haven't even ordered anythign for the display yet, but it could be a great niche!
 

Mike LeCompte CPF

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Cliff: thanx for answering my question. I sorta thought most people doing this were doing it with the customers' fabrics; so that said, anyone do fabric wrapped mats using the fabric catalogues from Frank's/Raphael's?
 

Cliff Wilson

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Mike,

maybe I wasn't clear. I AM ordering from Frank's "fabric only" for some jobs. My analysis came out about even in cost, but I have "excess labor inventory" ;) so it makes sense for me to do it myself. (assuming I can get it right d**n it!)

I think the make/buy decision is a capacity one. Somthing like chop vs. length. (duck)
 

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Cliff,
What Jim said.
Ever since I started using acrylic gloss medium, I have had no problem with bleed through.
I do still use a pva on liners, though.
Mike, I have priced it out both ways as well. I tend to gang my fabric wraps, so that helps to reduce the time a bit. I have also found shipping to be VERY expensive.
If I had a complex, booger of a piece like the one Bob mentioned, then I would not hesitate to shift the hassle to Frank's. I evaluate piece by piece.

edie the offtogetmywhitefoamroller goddess
 

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Question: Is Z-Gel the same as acrylic gloss medium? I tried some out mounting fabric to a mat and it worked great. Much less humidity introduced to the mat than with PVA, so no warping, and it brushed on real thin and smooth. The bond after running through the vac press was real good.

I've been using PVA but if this is the same stuff, I'm certainly going to make the switch.
 

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Mike, I stock fabric in generic colors (I have 3 different white cotton and cotton/linen blends, and 4-5 natural linen and hemp materials) from a couple of distributors and primed length liner material. I guess the advantage is turn around, though I've never really run a cost analysis. I usually buy in enough quantity to get a decent discount.
I ordered a covered liner once, thinking about the time savings, and that it really was cost effective, but was disappointed with the results. I have been doing my own ever since.
Maybe not a good way to decide, but I enjoy doing wrapped mats and liners, and I do make a good $/hour while I'm at it. Like Cliff, I have the time.
 

Mike LeCompte CPF

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OK, thanx for the input, guys. Just dressin' up the joint a little bit and thought I'd show some of these 8-ply fab wrap pieces but just don't want to do it myself until I know someone's gonna buy it. So I'll go to outside source for my "model" and do it myself--maybe--if I get a customer who wants it done.
 

Cliff Wilson

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Wally,

There is Acrylic Gel Medium and Acrylic Gloss Medium. I believe Z-gel is a brand of Acrylic Gel Medium. Thicker than gloss, but essentially the same material. The gloss I would guess is better for thinner material.

Well, wrapped two more mats. (practice really) used the press as suggested. no spots. yeah But, I botched the inner corners ARGHHH --- definitely need some practice. I'm pretty good at liners though! ;)
 

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Cliff, are you using the fallout to deboss the material onto the bevel? I do this with thinner materials and will leave the fallout in place when making the initial cut in the corner after the fabric is mounted.

I have Liquitex acrylic gloss medium, Windsor Newton acrylic matte medium, and the Z-Gel. Will try all 3 to see what does what.
 

Cliff Wilson

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Deboss? I left the fallout in when heating and cooling. but then took it out.

Interesting. I am going to do one for a display. Will try leaving the fallout in and cutting the center out of the fabric from the back. I can see where that might get me a cleaner cut.

BTW, customer picked up today. She said she's bringing two more in to be redone!
 

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We just mounted silk fabric onto art restore today and they work beautifully. We cut the preglued FC as the mat, laid the fabric over it, replaced the fall out over the silk and mounted it. Leave the fall out in place until it it fully cooled.

If we want to "sink" and not wrap, we use a 2nd FC board under the 1st, and the fabric adhears to the top of the "mat and the platform FC base.

Don't know if this is what Baer teaches, but it works well.
 

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Originally posted by Jerry Ervin:
I just don't understand why so many framers have not embraced ArtCare Restore.
Because of too many voluntary delaminations. I've had to replace almost every Restore mount that I've done. And I talked with Chris P. and I followed directions. Maybe it's the climate, maybe it's the idiosyncrasies of my press, but I just can't get the stuff to perform as advertised.
 

Steph

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Wally I have definitely had de-lam problems, still love to use the product. But I think its most effective with toothier papers. Photos are a nightmare, I use other products for that. I was hoping it would be my main choice for product but thats just a fantasy, I think you have to have a vasriety os substrates &/or films when it comes to mounting. Different presses and or climate areas could play a factor as well.

Who knows mounting in general just seems like one of those things that you have to be willing to experiment with and find what works best for the product your mounting, your machine ifyou use one and you. Just my opinion.
 

PaulSF

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I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer to this question yet, so here it is: when using a fabric-wrapped mat, is it necessary to use spacers to keep the glass off the mat? No fillet is involved with this piece, just an 8-ply mat wrapped in silk moire.
 

Baer Charlton

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If the fabric is real Paul, no spacer needed.

With the "leather" boards, they tend to cause Newton rings.

I'm trying to force Newtons with Frank's Fabrics new man-made leathers [Sedonas] but haven't gotten any rings yet. Into the south facing window is next.

They are polyester backing with PVC face, so nicely inert. And easily made into the the flexible fillets, so no "Wood off-gas" problems as well as spacing build-up time and materials.
 

PaulSF

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This is dusty rose silk moire, from Franks. Real, and real beautiful. And many thanks for your instructional video. Using that and Frank's instructions made the wrapping a breeze. Well, almost. It took me 3 tries to get everything just the way I like it!
 

jp

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I am trying to set my prices for fabric wrapped matts. Is there any "base" or guidelines I could use to give me a start? I realize every area is different. But,just need some sort of base to start figuring my prices.
Thanks for any help.
 

Baer Charlton

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jp, look in your catalog from Frank's, there is a general idea of retail pricing that works well.

Other wise use the formula I laid out in the class.

Glad you had success with teh moire Paul. Moire is a real tuffy sometimes, and then other time is just a sweet as you please bitc4.
fire.gif
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jp

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Thanks Baer
I do have a cataolg from Frank's, I guess I missed the pricing, I will have another look. I wasn't able to attend your class, could I get the formula from you?
Thanks
 
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