Economic Downturn?

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DriftwoodWV

Grumbler in Training
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Oct 31, 2007
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I have been operating Driftwood since May 2006. Every month in 2007 sales were up 30 to 40 percent (May thru Sept 2007). September was the best yet even though the shop was closed for the Decor Show ( 3 days ). October 2007 brought a 30% decline in the number of picture framing orders compared to last October. The first 3 weeks of November also show a significant decline in the number of orders we took last November.

The average sale price is much higher than last year, reflecting the fact that those with money are still spending, and that I have a better (well known) reputation than I did in our first year. But the small orders have dried up.

I am wondering if others are feeling the impact of lower consumer confidence this Fall. We are located in the Mid Atlantic Region. How's the rest of the country doing?

Todd Hardy
Driftwood Sign & Frame, Inc.
 
I'm seeing larger ticket totals and like you fewer of the smaller. My usual X-mas rush of stitchery and needlework is all but gone. Most of the customers are complaining about the gasoline prices, about $3.09 for regular. Luckily, heating expenses have not gone up, as we are experiencing a very mild November..great for the home/business owner...terrible for the ski industry.
 
My father before me, who was also in business, grew up during 1930's recession and he drummed it into me that the bottom end of the market is no place to be when money gets tight. I would say that it sounds to me like you're doing the right thing going after the better end of the market.

If you also want to go after the other end of the market too, then you need to do a bit of neat marketing. We aim mainly at the top end of the market and like you find that getting much business from the lower income customers is much more difficult.

However we are looking at ways around this and are planning to do some special offer display boards where all the mouldings on each board are the same price. I've never tried it before, but since I've got a good feeling about it, I'll give it a go and see what happens
 
I have had a similar experience to yours: When comparing October 2006 to 2007 we had no volume growth (order count was only one order difference) but our per-ticket was up 42% over last year(avg $221). I am seeing that those who have it are continuing to spend, but I would sure like some of last years volume as well.
 
FWIW I've seen a change in the last 6 weeks. UP!! just had my best week of the year and sold more high end frames in the last 6 weeks then in the previous year. I hope this holds after Thanksgiving.

framer
 
UzZx32QU said:
FWIW I've seen a change in the last 6 weeks. UP!! just had my best week of the year and sold more high end frames in the last 6 weeks then in the previous year. I hope this holds after Thanksgiving.

framer
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I, like you have had my sales go up in the past month. Mostly from high end. My little x stitch ladies (and men) have gone away. I have to figure out a way to get them back. Funny that I see that the high end sales are from the middle income and the sales that I have lost are from the higher income level.
 
I crunched some numbers today (with the help of a sales rep and my accountant), and my numbers are up, over 40% from this time last year. Less volume, higher ticket.....am I finally getting brave enough (smart enough??) to charge what I should? Buying better (thanks, Bob C.)? According to my reps, the other shops in our area are struggling....what's making the difference?

I'm up to my ears, already, with holiday orders.....completed 14 stitchery-framings in the past 2 days (whew!), and have a few more waiting. Had a couple slow months, but the balance of the year is looking good.

Who knows? What have I learned and been able to put into practice this year? Working smarter, rather than harder? (Okay, I'm working harder too, but...)Something's making a difference....maybe I'm beginning to learn how to be a better retailer as well as a better framer? Customer service? Dumb luck? Positive thinking? New file cabinets? Titanium? Chocolate? Better sleep and less caffiene? Wizard? Osmosis? All of the above?

I'll figure it all out later....maybe, March.

Frame on!!!
 
Little by little surviving custom framers will drift to the place that's really theirs to keep: the tight high end market. The days a custom framer was being everything to everybody are nearing an end. Custom made frames, just like custom made shoes, dresses, jewelry etc., are special products that won't be made (priced) available to everyone. This is the reason, in my opinion, for which the numbers of US framing bussineses are so dramatically decreasing and will continue on that course for 5-10 more years to come. Ten years from now will be less framers left around serving the high end market for the most part.

This trend can be measured by naked eye on what is going on right here on TG.
 
After 30 years in this business, there is one thing I have learned. You can't predict this business.

You just gotta take it as it comes.

We are slammed right now, and thanks be to God for that. But we are still keeping up. Early mornings and late evenings still haven't been necessary yet.

Our work has been mainly the old double-mat-one-frame jobs, but there is an uptick in double frames and multi-mats. And lots more oil paintings than we have seen for a while. Good ones, too! Some no glass and some Museum glass. Diplomas have almost disappeared. Needlework remains steady, but certainly not at the level that is was only a few years ago. I think many folks have moved on to other handwork... and hardly anyone frames a handknit sweater. Pity.
 
A wise framer-friend recently commented that our industry seems to be polarizing toward the extremes.

That is, high-end framers who attract customers with serious money to spend will do OK. Specialty/niche framers fit this category, too.

On the other extreme, high volume, budget priced framers will also do well in the new market, such as Warren Tucker, major chain operations, and the mass-market craft stores.

I guess the "traditional" small-shop independent framers who try to serve all segments of their market, and serve none of them as well as their competitors, will suffer the most.

Indeed, in my market they're dropping like flies, but Ohio is among the toughest small-retail markets in the country at this time.
 
Very much down here in Florida..hit hard w/housing slump and reflects all segments of the economy...lots of lay-offs, even Wal-Mart and Lowes laying off here locally...but we are doing good profit on lower volume, so we will ride it out..the recession is here and entrenched in our little corner of the world.
 
couture's gallery said:
Very much down here in Florida..hit hard w/housing slump and reflects all segments of the economy...lots of lay-offs, even Wal-Mart and Lowes laying off here locally...but we are doing good profit on lower volume, so we will ride it out..the recession is here and entrenched in our little corner of the world.
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Yep.
 
One thing for certain is that what we lack the most on orums such as this is perspective.

Framer A suggests biz is booming, but only do $125K; Framer B is up double digits, but had a poor 2006; Framer C is down 10% but does $600K

What does it really mean and can be read any tea leaves on this forum

It won't happen, but wouldn't it be refreshing for someone to say "Last year, I did $250K, budgeted $280K and am up 15% over plan. That increase comes from a $27K increase in sales from Museum Glass"

You don't even hear this info in private conversations

It makes any meaningful discussion pretty hollow unfortunately; yet, we often speak with such authority on issues like "market" and "economics"

I am certain that in any market, anywhere in the country, you will find framers (or plumbers or accountants or Indian Chiefs) that will do well in "down" markets an dothers that will not even in "boom" markets
 
All of that is certainly true, Bob. There isn't much concrete information about market comparisons. Never has been.
 
Hey, waiteaminute. We're hardly high volume framers at around 30 frames a day and we're certainly not "low budget." My fairly accurate guess is that we'll do over $300K this year in big ticket sales. We probably sell as many closed corner leafed frames as anyone. We recently had a staff meeting at the Mellow Mushroom to celebrate a very successful three quarters of selling closed corner frames. I think most of our customers appreciate us as reasonably priced quality framers. Just because we do a lot of business doesn't mean we're low budget. We do a lot of things for different customers and we do them well.
 
I had my best year ever in 2006, but I'm down $60,000 dollars so far this year. Retail is down a little bit for the year, but the corporate sales have been really off.

I've picked up a medical building for around 300 large pictures due the end of January, and another building with 150 pictures due in March, so that should get 2008 off to a good, positive start.

After 26 years, I try not to get to upset about the ups and downs of running a retail picture frame business. Put some money in the bank each month, and when things get a little tight, you'll always have a nice cushion to fall back on.
 
Reading Warren's post ( I love them) offers another perspective

Reminds me of a photog in NYC that was sharing hard data with me. He had no idea of what to do with his framing. He went from sending everything to neighboring frame shop, then added some ready-mades, then offered a few corner samples that came chop and join. And was struggling with bringing in on site framing-didn't want the headache

I asked what percent of his Balance of Sale was framing

He said that was his biggest problem; that it was just under 4% and it was too small a number to devote the potential time committment

He said his volume was right at $8 mil

4% equals $320,000 for an incidental line

Kind of like my buddy Warren saying he will exceed $300,000 in High end but isn't a volume shop

That, boys and girls, is perspective
 
I've been doing this long enough to understand what goes up, also goes down, and visa versa. It is important to put some of that money you make during the up times away, to carry you through the down times.

It's hard to understand when things are cooking, that the pot can be knocked off the stove. This is why so many intelligent, educated people bought into those stupid adjustable rate loans. They figured they would just refinance when the balloon payment started to come due. Never did they think what happened would happen, things were just going to well for them. When you finally get your McMansion, it's almost imposable to think you could lose it.

It's the same with our little framing business's, it just does not make sense that when your averaging thirty to sixty thousand a month, that it could drop down to five.

You have to save some of those good time dollars.

John
 
JRB;328164.... It's the same with our little framing business's said:
30 or 60 to 5? Now THAT would be a shock! We are not happy when we drop. say, ten thousand, and that causes serious belt tightening because that last 10K is usually the most profitable. Good sales one month and poor the next result in a stack of bills that have to be paid with a lot of juggling. Of course this happens to all of us in January and February, and April is usually very slow.

Sales are up this year, and 2006 was our best so far, so we are planning on a record-breaker. And yes, we cannot predict next year or next week, for that matter. We keep reading about a drop in retail sales, but historically that has not always affected us. There seems to be no way to predict framing sales in our shop, except to say that certain monthly newsletter specials bring in more business than others. Tucking away a little extra every month is always a good idea.
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Some of the so called business gurus on this forum always harp about the inadequacies of data that business owners post here. This doesn't make sense against the balance of that or the figures don't reflect the whole picture, but the truth of the matter is that many don't want to publish their financial figures in a public forum! And THAT makes good business sense to me!

We are having a very good year! I won't print any figures here because that isn't my responsibility as an employee but I can say that I have hit my bonus target for increased sales over last year's totals 2 months ahead of the predicted time and, in addition, I am now making a clean 10% commission on all retail custom framing sales and also on retail readymade frame sales to the end of this year. Now that doesn't show any financial figures with dollars and cents but I am here to tell all of you that it is OK with me that I stand to make an additional hefty sum of money (real close to the 5 digit mark) over and above what I am being paid normally. And I make more than enough to live peacefully compared to most of those wage figures that have been posted here in the past.

The point is my boss isn't some kind of business genius. She is a very hard working person who has a good business head on her. She treats others the way she would like to be treated. She does favors for her clients that most others would charge for and that comes full circle in the trust that they put in her judgement of art for their homes. We are a small business that is approaching our third anniversary soon. We have already outgrown our 2000 sq. ft. business space and are looking at buying a large building in the 9000 sf. to 12,000 sf. size to relocate into for the coming year. We all pray for our business. We humble ourselves to our Creator and try to make every day as positive as possible down here.

Success isn't always how many dollars one has to wave around. It also involves leading a good Christian life and knowing where all this is coming from.

"Life is like a slapstick comedy, just when you think that you control your destiny, the steering wheel breaks off in your hands and you are left in the wreckage wondering what happened!!"
 
Posting actual numbers could be a foolish thing to do. What with ex spouses running about and all. Whenever I use any numbers, in any of my posts, they are always fictitious, even though my divorce was over thirty five years ago. There are a multitude of reasons for not posting actual numbers, that I feel, far out-way any of the reasons for posting real numbers on a public forum.

John
 
Warren Tucker said:
Hey, waiteaminute. We're hardly high volume framers at around 30 frames a day and we're certainly not "low budget." ...Just because we do a lot of business doesn't mean we're low budget....
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You've mistaken my point, I think. That is, specialty/niche framers and large volume, budget-priced framers will do well in this new market. The losers will be the ones who can't compete at any level. Of those three categories, where would your business fit?

At 30 frames a day, your business is probably 5x the average retail framer's volume. By any measure within this industry, you have a high volume retail framing business.

I didn't say budget-priced framing is all that you do. However, you have said several times that you satisfy budget-minded buyers by keeping your prices lower than your competitors.

That said, your point is well taken. You have succeeded in being all things to all customers, which is a remarkable accomplishment.
 
Hey Jim-Perhaps as we look for "that" niche, Warren has found that "all things to all people" niche. Actually, I think it's "more things to more people"

Just like on the Name Mat Promotion thread, perhaps some folks have a "name mat" niche

A "niche by any other name smells just the same"
 
Bob Carter said:
... Warren has found that "all things to all people" niche. Actually, I think it's "more things to more people"... A "niche by any other name smells just the same"
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Well, OK. In that way, everything that works is a niche. The American Heritage Dictionary is a bit more specific about that word: "A special area of demand for a product or service". Considering the dictionary definition, maybe Warren simply serves most niches.

Those of us who go for niche markets may be challenged enough with only one or two niches. I know I am.
 
If you look closely at Warren's web site, he has 3 niches: A custom shop in a freestanding building, what looks like a very large DIY and custom shop in a strip mall (?) and a digital imaging service located at the custom shop. Both of these shops look large and both seem to cater to a slightly different clientele, or at least that is what the web site infers by the services each offers. Two locations, 3 niches. Clever.

We don't have the digital imaging, but of course we do have the custom and DIY, but all under one roof, squashed into 2400 sq ft, catering to a wide spectrum of the market. Wide as in low end to middle to higher, but not what I would call high end as in closed corner. I know what it is like to straddle the market. It works for us, but it takes training and an eye towards which way the wind is blowing.

As for the topic at hand, the economic downturn, I remain positive and hopeful!
 
" Which way the wind is blowing"

That may sum up biz as well as anything I've heard

Problem is how many never set theirs sails differently when the winds do change?

Because, the winds do change
 
Bob Carter said:
" Which way the wind is blowing"

That may sum up biz as well as anything I've heard

Problem is how many never set theirs sails differently when the winds do change?

Because, the winds do change
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We need a class or a discussion on that. What do you do differently when the winds change, when customer sentiment changes, when trends change, when the economy goes south, when your location gets less than desirable, and so on.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
 
JRB said:
It's the same with our little framing business's, it just does not make sense that when your averaging thirty to sixty thousand a month, that it could drop down to five.
John
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Until it happens. Maybe not as drastic, but at the beginning of the first war with Iraq my business dropped a measureable 70% over the course of a month. It took about 6 months to become profitable again, and a couple years to regain the pre-war numbers (now decreased by inflation). The winds of change didn't shift...they died. Now I look for any wind that blows my way. Once you've been in survival mode you become a much better scavenger.
 
Personally, I think all of us had better be getting our heads in survival mode for next year. Unless our government comes to the rescue of those millions of people that bought those adjustable rate mortgages, we are going to see a huge downturn in our sales figures.

I know it just pisses people off, at least those with conventional loans, or their homes are paid off, that our tax dollars should be spent to save all those speculators, however, if they don't get saved, most of us will be going down with them.

We can spend billions of dollars for our expeditions overseas to save other people, what about saving us from ourselves, here at home?

All that aside, it is highly doubtful, that our government will do anything meaningful to help our economy next year, when millions of adjustable mortgages roll over to as much as double what those folks are paying now.

That leaves just about all of us small retailers on our own. Now is the time to get out of as much debt as you can. Feel out your landlords to see if they will be open to helping you next year, should you need it. Look for ways to keep people coming into your store, such as stocking ready mades, or providing other services, not necessarily related to our industry.

I think the key to surviving next year will be to lowering your fixed expenses and appealing to both high and low end customers. Whatever you do, get ready to tighten your seat belt, it's gonna get bumpy.

John
 
Happy Thanksgiving all;

You know this is the 2nd time I wrote this. 1st time my Internet connection went south.

It not so much about money but attitudes that I'm seeing. It started in October and getting better. I'm getting quality clients that seem to want what they want and not care if it cost a few dollars extra. The week of the 5 - 10th was the best week this year. Last week was also strong and The last couple of day were nuts. Tuesday I never got to frame I just sold all day, 14 clients and most nice orders, largest day of the year. I even worked today for 6 hours to get keep up. I have done no extra ads for Christmas and no specials this just happened.

After 40 years in retail I can judge quality of traffic and customers are spending and I hope it continues. Next week will be the make or break week. Don't try to be smarter than a 5th grader and over analyze what's going on. Keep a positive attitude, don't ever tell anyone that businesses is slow and always act that you have too much work.

I really think that many will have a better than average season. All bets are off if something bad happens in the world and the CNN factor kicks in.

Remember we sell to a very small % of people and most are well off. A new stress out homeowner with a 40% debt ratio and a ARM has never been a client, please...

Last year was the year of the big LCD TV sales. That was last year and what my clients put off then now seems to be coming in the door this year.

Get the right attitude:D and sell that frame,

framer
:D:D
 
I certainly do not feel responsible for anybody’s poor mortgage decisions. I would do anything in my power to vote out anybody that suggests we expand the welfare system to include homeowners. The millisecond that there is public money to those who can't pay their house payment nobody will be able to pay their house payments.

The best thing that can happen is for that that oversized home, they couldn't afford in the first place, to get foreclosed. I'm not being callous and I really believe that government assistance will only prolong the problem. They can file bankruptcy and get back to living again. The banks will be fine as the housing market would actually suffer a rebirth. People scalling back in house, to what they needed in the first place, would still be buying houses.

Framer I couldn’t agree more. For me, price resistance is at an all time low right now. I’m not really messing with what seems to be working.

I’m not sure if this has more to do with economy or our industry, but from what I’m learning is that sales are either up or flat but it just isn’t happening specifically at Christmas time.

The winds are blowing. I just wish I had a windsock.
 
I was eavesdropping on a conversation between 2 men sitting next to me in the doctor's waiting room this past week. They evidently used to work together. Guy #1 said he had gone out on his own and started his business 7 years ago. His 2006 revenue was 82% Less than the average of the previous 5 years and this year has been worse!

He looked tired and plenty worried. There are many just like him - hanging on by a thread and it's darned scary.
 
Amy-We had people over for Thanksgiving and one was the GM of an Electrical Supply House, having the best year ever; put $331,000 into employee profitsharing (for 17 employees).

Another runs a Materials Biz, sand/rock etc, up $3mil over last year. Doesn't know what kind of car he's going to buy as a gift for wife with his bonus

I'm certain tht for every over leveraged mortgage owner there are 96% more that are doing fine (accoring to stats in AZ, anyway)

If we continue to look for reasons and excuses why we aren't slaying 'em; I am certain you will find them

Spend the same effort and time looking for things that maybe you can change to do better and maybe we won't have to look for reasons why "things are down"

BTW, the two stories above are dead solid accurate
 
Bob, that's certainly good news for those folks and I'm glad they are doing well. I'm not looking for the bad, just recognizing that it is a fact for many folks.
 
Amy-I didn't mean to be offensive, but it is way too easy to look for the easy "negatives", when we ought to be looking for positives

There is plenty of negativity; talking about it only improves it's chances of fruition

Go look at any Big Box parking lot or mall parking lot today
 
Bob...not "looking" for the bad or for excuses, but some areas are not as fortunate as yours...Wal mart layed off 32, Lowes layed off 17, Home Depot layed off 13 so far,,,,and the bb store parking lots at about 1/2 of normal capacity today ...my CPA handles 113 small retail accts, and of those 26 are preparing for bankruptcy...many friends in all kinds of business are hurting and down anywhere from 30 to 60 %, depending on the type business....these are the hard facts that we must face here and now...our nearest competitive frame shop just called it quits and turned it back to the financing people...so I'm glad your friends are doing well, and we remain optimistic that it will get better soon, but reality is reality.
 
Just tossing in my near-worthless two cents:

I am located in Cleveland, Ohio, officially rated one of the nation's poorest cities. We have little or no growth industries here, we are mostly uneducated, blue-collar, laid-off steel and automotive workers. We have weak (at best) tourist appeal and our lake has a mean-@ss reputation and our weather is generally considered sucky. (I like it, though) We are not located in a thriving new shopping center surrounded by acres of parking. We are not open any evenings and we do not do any mass advertising. I have not done any direct mail pieces for over a year. Three miles down the road, we have a big shiny new Joann ETC with a luxurious framing dept prominently placed in the store; indeed the world headquarters of Joann is approx. 20 miles away. We have a Michael's and a local craft chain (total of 4) within 10 miles. We have NO sales on framing. NONE.

I have been in business 20 years and have had one down cycle (2000 elections through 2005) and am on my second upswing.

And what an upswing! I am stunned to see that this year will likely be our best year ever.

I don't know that I have much of an explanation. BUT I can make a note of what is different now vs. 1999.

1.The Internet; aka, the world's best marketing tool. From my wimpy little website comes MOST of my new business and MOST of my under 30 year old customers. This amounts to A LOT of business. A LOT, did I emphasize that enough... It used to be that an internet business gave itself credibility when it advertised that it was also a brick-n-mortar business, now the opposite is true. Us brick-n-mortars NEED to have an internet presence to even get on the 'radar screen' of most younger shoppers.

2. The Grumble. I have changed (improved?) a lot of my pricing and business practices thanks to the related experiences and advice of many here.

3. POS. See pricing practices mentioned above.

4. GOOD, no,--- EXCELLENT employees! The mediocre employees have been weeded and it's just us framing freaks here. I could use a few more of us, too.

I'll think of more later. But dems my thoughts now.

edie the gottagetbacktowork goddess
 
Our accountant once told me that 42 of about 200 small business clients were being shut down, I only hope the new accountant tells me when he's doing a bad job as well. Maybe different situation, but the change was well worth it, evaluate accountants as you would any other Vendor.
 
Whatever the apparent outlook, whether good or bad, there are oportunities. The difference is that when things are good, we don't need to looking for oportunities and maybe we get a little out of practice and then start worrying, when we should be doing!

It's a good time to give your business a health check.

Also try some special offers (make em' good) and convert as much slow moving inventory into cash as you can in the run up to Christmas.

I'm already doing that myself and feeling happier that I doing it now so I'm ready if things slow down.
 
UzZx32QU said:
So how was your Black Friday?


framer
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Average for a Friday, but I noted that we sold 1K worth of ready made frames to one customer and almost that much in framed arts and crafts style art off our walls. Those are two of our niche areas:

1. Having not just the selection of our own ready made frames made from scrap but a depth of inventory in purchased frames in simple styles. A customer today told me that they came down from Sacramento because no one else had 30 x 40 black frames with glass in quanitity, and the quantity was six. I questioned them and was told that not even the big box stores had 6 of one style. They had a lot of frames but nothing for the artists hwo need basic frames in quantity.

2. Having forged a working relationwhip with a high-end Arts and Crafts furniture shop, for whom we do framing, he now sends clients to us. One couple spent a fair amount on art off the walls by one artist. Arts and Crafts is another niche that can't be replicated in the bbs. Look at the homes in yur neighborhoods and figure out the prevailing style if there is one, and fit your art to what they need.

Edie, great post, full of useful ideas. I wholeheartedly second what you said about the internet. The web site is hands down our most successful form of advertising--all for about $25. a month in hosting fees. That and the opt-in e-newsletter. I can't believe how many people sign up for that every month both in the shop and from our site. And yes, our employees are much better because we train better and expect more. We get a lot of sales training techniques at WCAF classes. We also give regular raises, benefits, and reward our best people.

Finally, business is good in many places, so I can't take credit for the general upswing and I am certain that at some point there will be downswings to come. Cushioning those future blows is always the challenge. Although we do service a fairly affluent client, we also always have a low price option for the student, the artist, the person on a budget.

And we need to learn more. I'm taking Barbara Markoff's networking class and the How to Get More Customers (Bluestone) class for just this purpose. I want to be one who survives the next economic downturn.
 
Jim Miller said:
A wise framer-friend recently commented that our industry seems to be polarizing toward the extremes.

That is, high-end framers who attract customers with serious money to spend will do OK. Specialty/niche framers fit this category, too.

On the other extreme, high volume, budget priced framers will also do well in the new market, such as Warren Tucker, major chain operations, and the mass-market craft stores.

I guess the "traditional" small-shop independent framers who try to serve all segments of their market, and serve none of them as well as their competitors, will suffer the most.

Indeed, in my market they're dropping like flies, but Ohio is among the toughest small-retail markets in the country at this time.
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Sort of like the way the COUNTRY is going, isn't it? The Rich get richer; the Poor get poorer!

Wendy
The Art Corner
978-745-9524
artcornersalem@verizon.net
 
I am against rich bashing, why should someone who works hard, takes becoming educated seriously, invests in business's that provide jobs, be rewarded with being hated?

Isn't that one of the cornerstones of our society, study, work hard, and you will be rewarded with a good job with a good income?

Should we teach our children to not go to the trouble, because if they do well, they will be among the hated elite of our country?

What are people thinking, I can not for the life of me figure it out. Bill and Melinda Gates spends millions of dollars every year helping the impoverished people of the world. If we gave that same money to our government to help all those same people, how many do you think would actually be helped?

Should we hang Bill and Malinda in effigy simply because Bill did very well, perhaps throw them in prison because we find the wealthy to be offensive?

Then we say, well...... I am not against rich people who worked hard and earned it.

So you work hard, become successful, and leave your estate to your children. Should your children spend the rest of their lives being thought ill of, simply because you wanted them to have a good life? Your grandchildren?

What kind of twisted messages are you sending the young of this country?

These so called rich people are our primary customers, who else can afford to spend hundreds of dollars on a picture frame?

What is rich anyway? If your a hobo, living under an overpass, I reckon a rich person would be a hobo who owns his own car to live in, wouldn't it? That same hobo, would look at you, as a person who owns their own business, as one of Americas wealthy elite, wouldn't he? What is the cut off point? Should you be bashed and taxed to death, just because you are among the wealthy of this country?

Wendy, your post triggered this ranting Grumble, it is not just you, I hear this garbage all the time, and that is exactly what it is, nonsensical, garbage.

This country is one of the few in the world that you can be whatever you want, if your willing to put in the effort. Granted, a lot of folks have to put in more effort than others, at least we have that open door.

A couple of weeks ago, I came out of a restaurant, and a young, able bodied fellow, in filthy clothes was sitting on the sidewalk, with his back against the building. He said to me," Could you help a fellow out?" This kid was about twenty five or so, nothing wrong with him that a bath wouldn't take care of. I looked at him and told him it was a little to late for that. I heard something to the affect of you F*****g rich SOB, as I walked away.

I do not feel that I am rich, I know I have earned whatever I have, nobody ever gave me a thing. I do feel that I am successful, I'll be darned if I like the idea of sharing that success with a lazy bum. Might just as well give the money to the government, do about as much good.

John
 
I am still to hear that rich bashing speech being delivered by a realized (not rich, but just not a looser or feeling like one) person. I tell you from direct experience that communist regimes were supported by have nots, incompetent, uneducated, lazy, unfit, wicked or just weak people happy to share (under any possible reason) into wealth that they've done nothing to earn except being aptly and convincingly poor.
Guess what. The communist regime is now history and yet some people are feeling nostalgic over it. THE SAME PEOPLE. Not necessarily the same individuals, but the same inapt, unfunctional people regret the good old times when their handicaps were socially rewarded and rich people hated and destroyed for being the "working (?!) class enemy".
You are so right, John. I am not a rich person either, but I know that if I succeed or fail in this country it has everything to do with my performance and I accept of what I am today and what I may become tomorrow as a gift I've been offered by this generous country. If I, a foreigner who came here some 20 years ago not speaking a single word of English, had found a way of my own, there is no other reason for native Americans to fail but stupidity or some sort of grave (mental) ilness or chronic laziness. Blaming rich for one's inaptitude
is deeply immoral.
 
Ha, I am going to step into a maelstrom of criticism for my opinion on being "rich" but here goes. "Rich" is in the eye of the beholder in my opinion. John, that hobo living under a bridge that you mentioned may consider himself as "rich" as he prefers to be! He may consider himself "rich" in that he has his health, the wonderful gifts of the outdoors and nature to greet him each morning as he wakes to a warm sun and birds singing in the trees close to his little overpass.

Believe it or not, there are still people out there who are not materially oriented. They don't want to work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year and get caught up in the eventual "rat race" that is following that pattern of life. I look on them as the last real explorers, the voyageurs of our society, the curious, the unbound, and those few who don't bow down to the whims and wishes of government, the latest trends, and the almighty dollar. Sure, some people would refer to these people as irresponsible, lazy, worthless bums and many of them are just that but I have met a few of these people who choose to live a free life out of their love for the outdoors and nature and they work only to provide some means of legal procurement of such necessities as clothing, food, and shelter in some cases. And, believe it or not, many of them were women!!

I met a woman in the Quetico Wilderness many years ago that personifies this type of individual to me. Her name was Dorothy Molter and she lived on a small island in the vast array of lakes in this designated wilderness area most of her adult life. Dorothy was not an indigent lazy bum, she was a registered nurse and she shed the life that she was leading in the civilized world to move into the Quetico in the early 30's or thereabouts. She spent her entire life helping other travelers who had accidents while exploring that area, became sick in the wilderness, or had some type of physical malady that she could minister to. She became so well known and so loved amongst the travelers who came upon her little island on their adventures in the Quetico that, when she passed away in the middle 80's, the town of Ely, MN went out to her island and dismantled her little cabins, hauled them across many lakes and portages and rebuilt them in the city park in Ely as a memorial to her life and times as the last white person to have been a permanent resident of that wilderness area.

Knife Lake Dorothy was of a breed of person whom we don't often see in this modern world. She was a true survivor and a person of whom I look up to and truly admire. I was born probably 250 years too late for my own personal mindset and inclinations as I could have been quite happy trapping and exploring those pristine areas of this wonderful continent on my own with only my survival skills to get me along. I guess we all have our little dreams and fantasies that we cherish, that would be mine.

Edit:

I have no idea what brought this all on, I guess I sat up too late this morning watching Spaceballs on TV and am a bit punchy now! (Yeah J, it was on Spike TV and I almost called you to let you know it was being shown but it was sooooo late!!!)
 
wendy lang said:
Sort of like the way the COUNTRY is going, isn't it? The Rich get richer; the Poor get poorer!
Click to expand...

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the customers or the businesses, but it's not about rich or poor, Wendy. It's about successful marketing. It's about finding ways to compete and appeal to customers shopping for the products and services we offer. Those who succeed in marketing and know how to run a business will prosper. Those who do not will decline.
 
Well John and Cornel, those rants against Wendy are uncalled for.

Where did any of you read she was bashing the rich?? Or bashing anyone??

Statistically speaking, for those who read the financial news, here in the US the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. It is a statistical fact. Period. The government compiles such figures.

The free market system is very good very to some and very bad for others. The tax cuts of the last few years were engineered to that effect.

And the Alternative Minimum Tax that was supposed to let the rich pay their fair share is now hitting the middle class more than the rich - Because it was not indexed for inflation (you can blame the Congress for that) Again, in it's in the news.

How does that constitute rich bashing??

And yes, some rich from Bill Gates to W Buffet are very philanthropic which is very commendable. But many others are not.

And some rich pay their fair share of taxes while other very rich pay less taxes than a minimum wager (Hedge Fund managers earning billions, pay 15%, while other grunts pay twice as much). That too is a statistical fact and is in the financial news in every news paper one could lay eyes on.

Which all will lead to, well you know by now.
 
"The free market system is very good very to some and very bad for others. The tax cuts of the last few years were engineered to that effect."

"Which all will lead to, well you know by now."

Yeah, Paul the first, the kind of Socialism that we are headed for with the current crop of Democrat Presidential candidates who firmly believe that they know how to spend everybody's income better than allowing the "free" markets to function. You can make any inaccurate point you want with "statistics", but I do know for a fact that adding up the current tax proposals means that any additional profit I make from my shop would go to State and Federal taxes at about 55 to 60 cents on the dollar - makes me really want to grow my business! (And I'm not in the highest bracket.)
 
Well Pat Murphy, we all can see and feel very well the house of cards "vibrant" economy and the "fiscal responsibility" that the "fiscally conservative" Republicans have dished upon us the last 8 years!

Asking Hedge Fund manages to pay taxes like everyone else is not socialism. It's the American Way.

Unless of course you cater exclusively to Hedge Fund managers and making them pay taxes will cause their billion $ a year income to drop to a pitiful $400 million, causing the poor slobs to stop framing at your shop!:)
 
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