Dual Mitre Saw?

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dennykyser

dennykyser

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I am probably missing something here and sorry if its obvious but have to ask.

If you are setting up a dual mitre saw setup, why would you need expensive saws for this? My thoughts are if the saws are for cutting molding only, and in my case not really wide stuff, and never used for anything else wouldn't a decent quality mitre saw work.
If I get the angles set, and never change them I would think the blades, measuring system and fence system need to be good but the saw itself could be rather basic.

My thoughts are 2 $150.00 saws that never moved would be better than a $400.00 saw that you changed to cut both sides of the molding.

I have a great Delta Compound mitre say that I could use for everything else.

I do not sell enough high end molding yet to get it in length, when I get to that point am sure I will look at better options. I am wanting to stock lengths of the cheaper molding I sell often.

I was thinking about using my table saw but a great point was made about the longer lengths of molding and I would have to cut them down first so that may not be the best option.
 
just look at this decision from the opposite side.

If it were not a beneficial economic decision to purchase a $5,000 and up double miter saw............ there would not be that many being sold.
 
Denny, you are correct. Once set to 45-degrees and adjusted for proper up-down tracking, nearly any decent construction-grade miter saw would work well. My Phaedra SawHelper is set up that way, with twin DeWalt miter saws mounted side-by-side. I would suggest avoiding compound miter saws, because the added mechanism only adds to the cost and difficulty of adjustment. Frames do not use compound-angled miters.

If you were going to produce more than, say, 20 frames a day, then a double miter saw might be more practical in terms of speed and durability. However, they are much more expensive, larger, heavier, noisier, and usually require 230/1/60 electrical service. A few years ago Jeff Rodier bought my Pistorius EMN, which I replaced with a chopper and my Phaedra twin-DeWalt system, and we're both happy with the outcome.
 
Kinda like saying Volvo vs Scion why would you?

If you have ever used a Pistouris/CTD it would be perfectly clear. I have had both set ups.
Also it depends on how much framing you intend to do and at what level.
 
With "construction trade" single miter saws, even the best will have flex in the mount of the saw/motor. You will have to be very careful to get precise repeatable cuts with one (or two). Just grab hold of any one and see how much it flexes back and forth...
 
Actually...this is something that I have been itching to try out for ages. Just never had the room to make a dedicated setup. I have a cheapo DIY grade mitre saw that someone gave me. I have used it off and on with big awkward-to-cut-on-a-Morso moulding and to be fair, the cut is good. With a different blade maybe better.
The only drawback with it is the accuracy of the angle. Turning the screw to lock the head moves it off a few degrees. And there is no fine adjustment. So I thought of getting a matching pair, set up on a permanent bench so that each one could be calibrated with various shims and the angle would never get disturbed by having to swing the heads.

Well that's the theory anyway. I think it might work well. The idea is sound enough. I will get round to doing it one day. :D
 
If you can't afford the professional saw consider buying a mitre sander.

It may add a step but it fine tunes the cuts from any saw.

I use a Barton 12' Sander and kiss each cut from my Dewalt saw and Phadera system.

Doug
 
Ok, I just left Lowes checking out Saws and have to agree, the cheap units have much more flex and its tough to lock down at a specific position.

The Dewalt on the other hand is rock solid, but its also $219.00 vs $99 and it has micro adjust for the angle. This is probably what I will try, if it doesn't work you guys can get a good deal on them on ebay.

I realize this is not the ideal situation if your doing a lot of frames but might work out good for doing a couple frames a day, even if I have to add the sanding to them.
 
You have only half the equation...you need to get some seriously good blades to make the system work. There are several threads dedicated to blade preferences and sharpening and a lot to think about. I will also point out that one of the sponsors of the Grumble, Quinn Saw, sells and services blades and has had several favorable reviews.
The system you are envisioning has been the mainstay of many small shops. Sometimes it is enough and other times the shop needs to upgrade to a more industrial style saw. Even within a brand name you will have different grades of saws. The DeWalt you are looking at is still considered a hobbiests saw. All of the moving parts aren't as well made as their contractor grade saws, or they are made from less durable material. They will provide good service if well set up and well taken care of until such time as you need to move on to a light industrial miter saw.
 
wpfay said:
Even within a brand name you will have different grades of saws. The DeWalt you are looking at is still considered a hobbiests saw. All of the moving parts aren't as well made as their contractor grade saws, or they are made from less durable material. They will provide good service if well set up and well taken care of until such time as you need to move on to a light industrial miter saw.
Click to expand...

I've heard that before so one day I went shopping for the contractors grade DeWalt. (Different from the one at Lowes, Right!)

I just couldn't find one.

FWIT.... I have a Milwaukee 10" for metal and a Dewalt 10" for wood. I think the Milwaukee is a better saw.

Doug
 
I would suggest if you plan on a miter saw to go either with a makita or milwaukee. they are going to be a little more but much better built saws. Also if you can afford a sliding miter where you can lock in on an angle slide cut you have less movement in the saw blade. I started with a miter saw system(as I had the saws for work) but upgraded to a CTD as quick as I could.
 
I have two Makitas and they work perfectly for me. The blades are very important though, don't buy those at Lowes or HD or wherever! Count on spending another 100-140 dollars per blade.
I have 4 blades in all; two to use when the others are being re-sharpened.
 
Saw differences - construction type saws and double miter saws designed for picture framing - there are differences.

You place the moulding on the "table" and then push it against the "fence"

On a construction type saw the fence is back of the blade and you push the moulding away from you.

On a double miter saw the fence is at the front of the blade and you pull the moulding towards you.

On a construction type saw, which is designed to cut 2x4's and as big a piece of wood possible the bottom of the blade contacts the wood first so as you cut the teeth are cutting down in the first half of the curf and up in the back part of the curf. At least this is so for a big moulding - a really small moulding has the teeth cutting up all the way. This can lead to chipping and possibly lifting the moulding off the table.

A double miter saw always cuts down through the moulding and the saw teeth actually push the moulding against the table and fence for a safer cut. Even the smallest moulding is cut with the saw teeth going down through the moulding. The difference in geometry results in the double miter saw having less capacity in moulding size.

When I use a construction type saw for mouldings I place a 2x4 on the table and another against the fence to position for a better, safer cut by moving the moulding out and up where the saw teeth can cut down.

I use a foot operated CTD double miter saw. I can't imagine an air powered saw in a custom frame shop where every moulding is different. Foot powered lets me feel the speed of the cut and adjust as I go through pushing harder in thick sections and backing off in thin. My CTD saw is the most profitable tool in my shop.

80 tooth triple chip carbide blades with negative rake. 80 tooth not 100 or 120 - the teeth are bigger and stay cooler lasting longer - also bigger teeth can be sharpened many more times.

Long ago I was a tool engineer.
 
Miter Saw

From my experience as a furniture maker I would recommend buying a small diameter miter saw. Stay away from the new Hitachi 8.5" as it is very poorly built. I'm using the Makita 7 1/4" compound miter and it's a dream. The smaller diameter blade has very little, if any, flex so your cuts will be excellent. If you do get a miter saw take the time to build a zero clearance insert to eliminate tear out. Saying all of that, for my picture frames I've made a jig that goes on my 10" cabinet saw that really can't be beat! Hope this helps.
 
I used a DeWalt miter saw for several years, and just recently switched over to a Frame Square saw. If you have the space, this is a great alternative between a miter saw and a double miter saw. The Frame Square unit requires 110 voltage and is amazingly accurate. The lenght stops are awesome. And yes, you can have the best saw in the world but with a crappy blade.... you will not get the results you are looking for. Spend some money on a good blade.
 
I was using a single Bosch sliding miter saw for a while and had the clearmount system on it but when i purchased my pistorius emn14 that is a whole other ball game...nothing compare to a regular saw...
I dont do a lot of volume but the few i do are well made...
I enjoy using it and i would never go back to a regular saw....
Its like saying Ferrari vs Honda civic...they both get you to your destination but one is totally different then the other....
 
Comments on Miter saws

I'm fairly new to framing but have been woodworking for over 25 years and have a few observations about Miter saws.
#1 Each one is different (the tolerances can vary greatly between saws that are the same model or manufacturer.) It is possible to get good accuracy with an inexpensive saw that was made with tight tolerances.
#2 A 12" will generally have more flex and offer less consistancy than a 10" blade.
#3 Any saw is only as good as it's blade. The better the blade the smoother the cut. Generally the more teeth the better (I personally use a 10" blade with 80 teeth for cutting moulding). Don't make the mistake of trying to use a cheap construction type blade and expect good results. A good blade will run about $80 and up.
#4 Keep it clean. The sawblades I mean. They are designed to cut wood and cutting through pre-finished mouldings at high speed will lead to residue on the blad that needs cleaned off occasionally.
#5 SETUP IS EVERYTHING. Get a good 45 degree Machinists square and keep it handy to check the setting of your saw. www.grizzley.com is a good source. Model H2699 is $22 and will last a lifetime.
Remember, Miter saws were designed for construction and refered to as "chop" saws. No traditional miter saw was designed for the kind of accuracy we need from it. Accuracy is possible to get but takes a combination of the right saw, blade, and setup.
 
Woodworks by John said:
From my experience as a furniture maker I would recommend buying a small diameter miter saw. Stay away from the new Hitachi 8.5" as it is very poorly built. I'm using the Makita 7 1/4" compound miter and it's a dream. The smaller diameter blade has very little, if any, flex so your cuts will be excellent. If you do get a miter saw take the time to build a zero clearance insert to eliminate tear out. Saying all of that, for my picture frames I've made a jig that goes on my 10" cabinet saw that really can't be beat! Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Any pictures of this?
 
A good point was made about keeping the blades clean. I use a CTD dual 12" 100 tooth carbide blade pneumatic saw. The blades will get a buildup on the teeth which can affect the quality of the cut. I clean the blades as needed using automotive brake parts cleaner or denatured alcohol and then wipe them with WD 40.
 
Table saw Jig

Denny, it would be an easy thing to get if you're interested in seeing it. I used to use this in my woodshop classes before the advent of "chop saws". Matter of fact I'll take some pictures of it this morning. Too hot out in my shop anyway, here in Las Vegas it cooled down about 87 degrees in there!
 
Miter Sled for Tablesaw

Denny and anyone else interested in how to make a miter sled for a tablesaw. Personally I feel this is more accurate than a chop saw and when I explain it I think you'll understand why. The first step is to take a piece of plywood (I like Baltic Birch) and attach two runners to it that will fit in your tablesaw miter slots, this will be the base for the sled. You can either make your own from a stable piece of wood and plane them to fit or, my choice, use UHMW polyethylene. You can get this from Amazon, Rockler, etc. What I like about this product is that you can drill/tap just like metal and it's stable and self-lubricating. You can see in my pictures how you install a brace across the back of the piece (looking from the operators point of view) that will hold the plywood together. This needs to be higher than your thickest piece of molding. You may notice that I added an extension to mine. Once you have the two runners attached and it slides without any sloppiness, make a cut about half way through the plywood piece.
Here's what makes this jig work so well. On the front of it you'll notice a triangular shaped piece of plwood. As long as the point of this piece is exactly 90 degrees your miters will be tight. Attach this to the plywood sled so that the point lines up with the cut you made halfway through the sled base. When you use the sled you cut one end of the molding guided on the left side of the triangle and the other side of the molding is cut on the right side. As long as your triangle is 90 degrees, theoretically it shouldn't matter if it's not exactly lined up with the blade. For example if your left side cuts at 47 degrees then the right side would cut at 43 degrees for a total of 90 degrees. Of course if it were off that much it may look odd but you want that triangular piece to be exactly 90 degrees and lined up with the saw kerf. Don't glue this piece down because you'll probably need to replace it as time goes on. When you screw it down make sure the blade won't contact the screws as it cuts.
I've upgraded mine through the years with clamps (important) and a fence on the right side so my pieces are exact. At minimum I would suggest gluing some sandpaper on the triangle to minimize the piece creeping while you're cutting it. I used a very simple version of this in my junior high school woodshop classes and the kids had success with it. Like someone else mentioned, use a quality blade.
Hope this all makes sense but if you have any questions just ask! In the picture I took a piece of mahogany and cut it on the left side. In practice I would set the stop on the right to my required length and go then cut it. Use a little bit of trial and error and always cut your longer side first -- you can always cut it again to make the shorter piece but it's really hard to stretch it to turn it into a long side.
 

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Double mitre the way to go....

Been using a single 12" DeWalt for years, bought an old double from a local distributor, got new blades form Quinn, Wow, what a difference, so easy, now....like going from manual mat cutter to the cmc's.....wouldn't go back...time saver, no mudding the corners........look forward to cutting a frame now, instead of dread...
 
Thanks John

I am going to try this, I figure if it doesnt work I can use the pieces to make a great cross cut jig. When looking at my table saw I realize your not going to buy a mitre saw built like this, its extremely accurate and built like a tank. I did a lot of research on tuning a table saw, I thought mine was perfect but come to find out it is not. Luckily you can tune them up.

I need to find a new blade, mine is a nice freud but has been used and abused for years.
Anyone know who the sponsor is on here that sells the blades?
 
Miter Sled for Tablesaw

Denny, good luck with it. Just for the record I use a Tenryu Gold Medal blade and it does a good job. I've found that getting it sharpened is the hassle and haven't been able to find anyone local to do it. At a picture frame convention here in Las Vegas I met Ken from Atlas Saw in Spring Grove, IL. I've had him sharpen the blade a couple of times and been pleased with his work. The sled is pretty straight forward and I think you'll be pleased with the results. I have a 10" Jet cabinet saw and like you say, good thing you can tune them up. My shop dictates that it be mobile so even pulling it around can eventually knock it out of adjustment. Let me know how it works out for you.
 
Quinn Saw mentioned above is the best

they sharpen, make the blades, etc., service is the best....try 'em...you'll like em'...
 
Jonh
I am looking at your stuff. Do you have to measure molding at inside side (the shorter one), and if yes do you experiece some problems?
 
Answer for Jeanette

It's not a problem, what I do is cut the one miter first. Then, like you said, I measure inside and line it up with the kerf in the jig. I'll go a little oversize and then set up my length stop block. After making the cut I double check and adjust the stop block as needed. If you follow my advice and cut your long length first even if you mess it up it can be used to make a short length. What I did to make my life easy is to use an aluminum ruler to attach the stop block to. Because of that I really don't need to measure but go through the double check anyway just to make sure. I've tried a $600.00+ commercial jig but it hung up on the edge of the saw and wasn't as accurate as this one. It can be used on virtually any type of table saw, it's cheap, and works!! Let me know if you have any other questions.
 
John
How fast is working with your jig? Can you cut 20 sticks (5 frames) within one hour?
Thanks
 
Another reason for a double miter saw - 500+ sticks per hour.

After I wrote the line above I set the clock, walked to the saw, cut 4 sticks, walked to the V-nailer, set it, and joined the frame. 1 minute 23 seconds when I got back to my desk.

It was a simple 1.5 inch wood moulding and I put 3 v-nails in each corner.

Nothing like good equipment and a well set up shop.
 
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