Dry mounting question

Jennifer P

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Jan 21, 2010
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74
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Kingsport TN
Ok, I have been framing for years and I am having some problems with my dry mounting. I am using a Seal Heat press and fusion 4000. I heat it to 175 degrees and use release board to top while it's in the press.

Lately, I have had some pieces come back with bubbles. They don't leave with the bubbles, so it is happening after they leave the store.

I am open to any advice on how to fix this, or if there is a better product or machine with which to drymount.

I am at a shop where my bosses are open to having the best equipment, so Let me know what you think is the best why to fix this problem.

Thank you for your help
 
Wasn't there a change in Fusion where 190 or so was recommended? I use Restore now so I'm not sure about that - it's just something that drifted through my memory.
 
Your temp is too low. Go up to 190 and you will have no more problems.
 
Jennifer... are you weighting during the cooling process?

You are at 175 degrees for what dwell time?

What is your substrate?

Are you preheating/warming the object to be mounted?
 
Dave, I haven't been pre heating, but I will from now on. and I am leaving it for about 3 minutes at 175. I guess I need to up my temps.

I am using the small Seal press, so I am having to dry mount in sections. could that be a problem?
 
It's not a bad idea to let the bite cool before overlapping for the next bite.
 
There are several causes of poor bonding. The bubbles do not show up immediately. Even the worst mounts look good right out of the press, so framers who dry mount incorrectly think they are getting good results.

Common causes:

1. Failure to cool under weight, which is probably the most common cause.

2. Failure to pre-dry if you use a mechanical press. This is not about warming the materials, but evaporating the moisture within the papers & boards. Moisture in the materials can cause steam during the mounting process, which fouls the adhesive bond. This is not necessary in a vacuum press, because the vacuum removes the moisture before the bonding is complete.

3. Inadequate heat. The recommended temperature for Fusion 4000 is 190 F.

4. Inadequate dwell time, which varies according to the temperature of the press, the beginning temperature of the stack of materials, and the ability of that stack to absorb the heat. For example, using a release board (vs paper) slows the penetration of heat, so you need to either increase dwell time or pre-heat the release board.

"Traditional" dry mounting, using high-temperature dry mounting film/tissue and foam board, has always been done wrong by a large percentage of framers, who have never bothered to follow the manufacturers' instructions.

Fortunately, the newer-technology dry mounting products, using low-temperature adhesives pre-applied to various substrates, eliminate a lot of the guesswork and make dry mounting a much more dependable process. With bonding occuring in only 15 seconds at 160 F, it's harder to screw up...but you still have to cool under weight.
 
Why do you need to cool under weight?

I use a drytac hot glass vacuum press and have never cooled under weight and I am interested as to why this needs to be done
 
You wouldn't have to cool under weights with a vacuum press, just with a mechanical press.

I use a quarter inch plate glass mirror to weight and it acts like a heat sink drawing off the heat quickly. I usually weight just long enough to mount the next piece... about 1 minute.
 
The bond is made during the cooling process. The press takes the adhesive above its melting point and as it cools and resolidifies it forms the bond. If there is no pressure during the cooling process, the bond will be relatively weak.
It is my understanding that not all dry mount adhesives work in this manner, but the one in question does.
 
Heating to 190 should eliminate the need for weighting. I don't preheat the foam core but I keep a sandwich of release board in the press so everything is at temp when the art goes in. Preheating the foam core causes it to retain heat for a much longer period of time.
 
I admit that I rarely preheat whatever I am mounting unless the humidity levels are extremely high and the air conditioning isn't working. This hasn't caused me any problems, yet.

I learned the hard way that weighting while cooling is necessary when I had to take apart and remount 10 16X20 photos because they were bubbling two weeks after they left the shop. After remounting and weighting while cooling they are fine 6 years later.
 
Weighting becomes more important for very slick paper like RC Photo papers. If a piece stays in the press too long weighting is also important. We have all had the phone ring in the middle of a job.
 
Why do you need to cool under weight?

Cooling under weight isn't always necessary. Trouble is, most framers have no way to know when it is and when it is not. Mostly it depends on the type of heat-activated adhesive, and the types of materials in the pressed stack. So, the only safe bet is to cool under weight every time.

Thermosetting adhesives, which bond when heated, may be OK if cooled in open air, but if any part of the finished mount cockles or warps, the bond was probably weakened while the adhesive was still hot and before it was fully bonded. These adhesives bond only once, and can not be re-melted if there's a problem.

Thermoplastic adhesives bond during cooling, and need to be cooled under weight. Every time. These are the adhesives that can be re-melted with re-application of heat.

When a dry mount fails because it was not cooled under weight, the bubbles do not show up right away, which leads some framers to incorrectly conclude that their dry mounts were successful. It takes some time to reinvest air to the materials after pressing under heat, so in the worst cases, where some of the mounted area never bonded at all, bubbles might show up in just a few days - but almost never immediately.

In a dry mount that has bonded over the entire area, but with weak spots, normal expansion & contraction cycles over time can disintegrate the bond in the weak spots. In this case, there might be no hint of bond failure until it happens, and that could be months or even years later.

Eventually, the cheaper high-temperature heat-activated adhesives deteriorate and fail, but that takes years and is not associated with faulty procedures. If you want your dry mounts to endure, avoid cheap and older-technology adhesives.

Dry mounting consists of three dissimilar materials stacked together, which expand during heating and contract during cooling, but at different rates:

1. The art paper is typically thin and, especially since it is on top of the stack of materials, would cool quickest in open air.

2. Heat-activated adhesive is also thin, and it might cool quicker than the art paper if it were not sandwiched between the art and the board substrate, where it is insulated. So, it would hold heat longer than the art paper, but not as long as the board substrate.

3. The board substrate is usually foam board, heavy paperboard, or some other thick, dense material that will hold heat longer than any other part of the stack. This layer cools slowest.

The stacked materials expand when heated in the press, but at different rates. Presumably, when the heat of the press permeates all of the layers, they will all have expanded in nearly-equal proportions, but it doesn't matter, since they are being pressed together during heating.

Cooling under weight serves to (A) press all of the materials tightly together during the cooling/contraction process, and to (B) slow the cooling/contraction process by some number of seconds.

If the cooling occurs in open air with no weight, the art paper cools fastest, contracting more than the adhesive and board layers of the stack. As the art paper cools & contracts, it can cockle so slightly that you can't see it happen, but it takes only a few ten-thousandths of an inch of deflection to weaken the bond. When this happens, the adhesive might go with the paper, or might stay with the board substrate, but the bond is weakened either way. The cooling generally occurs at the edges first, which is why most dry mounts remain fully bonded at the edges, even if the mid-section has completely failed.

Sometimes the dry mounted assembly will become slightly (but visibly) warped for a short time, then flatten out again, as the cooling/contraction process causes temporary deflection of the materials in the stack. That usually means the bond is weaker in some parts of the mounted area.

No matter what conditions might cause a dry mount bond to be weak in spots, cooling under weight is the solution. Come on, folks - it usually takes less than 30 seconds under weight to do it right.
 
i never realised that jim thankyou for the time and response

I guess i need to look at what i do

What i do is place the dry mounted piece on my cutting table, which is a 2m*1.2m 8mm glass top. what happens is the substrate is coolled quick than just in air because of the cold of the glass while the art is cooled at normal air temp
 
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This is a very informative thread. I've been cold mounting with my Print Mount vacuum press for 25 years, but recently acquired a Seal 210M-X from a friend who retired. Although I got the manual, Chris' books and some samples, I haven't dived into mounting for customer pieces yet. I know that this opens up a whole lot of possibilites for our shop as the cold vacuum press can't do everything.

Dave, thanks for the mirror idea for a weight. Are there any other ideas for weights? Would glass be heavy enough? If you mount something in bites do you "bite and cool, bite and cool, bite and cool, bite and cool," or "bite, bite, bite, bite and then cool?"

Susan
 
Hi Susan... plate glass will also work as a weight. Just make sure the mirror or glass are clean and free of any debris.

When doing bites I bite and cool under weight, bite and cool under weight, bite and cool under weight, bite and cool under weight...

Be aware that you shouldbe careful not to use too much weight when doing the bite method or you could easily end up with pressure lines. I often will use a release board on top of the entire mount when employing this method to more evenly distribute the weight.
 
No after the bite has cooled there are no worries. If you don't cool between bites you are doubling the dwell time on the overlap.
 
TTPM

Sorry , I'm a little slow at responding--life has gotten in my way the past few months--but it sounds like you have a VacuSeal. If mounting are resulting in bond failure go back to the four basic elements of Time, Temperature, Pressure and Moisture.

1) Time - Your 3 minute time is too short for a vacuum press with a release board, increase it to 4 minutes. If this is a mechanical press 2-3 minutes should be fine.

2) Temperature - Your 170F is the old temperature and you must increase it to 190F as indicated by others here. That happened with the Fusion reformulation back in the 1990s, even though Hunt never really embraced the fact it was done when Seal still own the company.

3) Pressure - Make certain a mechanical press is adjusted to 45 degrees with all layers inserted, a vacuum will automatically adjust. Always cool under a weight. Removable adhesives bond outside the press as they cool under weight, permanent adhesives bond in the press as all layers reach bonding temperature.

4) Moisture - Predry all layers--not adhesive--when using a mechcanical press, vacuum presses automatically draw moisture from within the press.

As aside about multiple bites...never select a removable adhesive or HA board when bonding in bites as each previous bite will be reactivated with the new application of heat. Low temp short duration products would be fine, but never removable ones. The overlapping of the bites is what creates a well fused end product.

Chris A Paschke, CPF GCF
chris@DesignsInkArt.com
 
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