Does L J only sell to store front locations?

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surferbill

surferbill

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
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2,738
Loc
virginia beach virginia
I've heard over the years that L J will not sell to anyone that does not have a store front location, and it seems they are keeping their promise.
Recently I've learned that a competitor of mine closed their store front and L J very soon afterword closed their account.
I talked to the rep for this area about it, and he assures me that L J will not sell to them, unless they reopen a store front.

After all the L J bashing in another thread, I thought it was interesting that they are still trying to keep their word on selling to store fronts locations only.
 
They require a business license or resale certificate of some sort, and for their samples to be on display to the public. This isn't necessarily a "store front", but there aren't many ways to display samples to the public in your garage.
 
It's just as easy for me to display corner samples to the public in my garage as it is for you to display them to the public in your store front. Yes, I have a resale certificate. No, LJ will not sell to me and that's just fine with me. Don't need them because I have several, IMO, better and nicer looking lines, not saying that all of LJs line is bad but they do have some real dogs. Another reason I don't care if I carry them or not is because one of BBs that is located close to me has a portion of the LJ line, why would I want to carry the same as the BB, for that matter, why would a private store front want to carry the same line as a BB?
 
There was a shop here that closed and became home based and receive orders from LJ. I know this because their invoice was attached to mine accidentally. The driver confirmed that they do deliver to them on a regular basis. I really know very little about the outfit or their relationship with LJ.
 
:smileyshot22: Larson-Juhl likes to shake your hand and stab you in the back at the same time. I tried to deal with the ####in' dumb ###, but i do not have a storefront, which i feel is absolutely NONE of their business!
 
I think the "big guys" got big by not pissing off us little guys that buy from them. So I don't think I can say that I'm sorry that they have a policy not to sell to my hobbyist, or artist, or fly by night competitors. It helps to keep frame shops like me loyal!

DM has the same or similar policy. They do deliver to a home framer near me, but she is "grandfathered in". She had a shop, cloed down and does internet buz now. They deliver to her, but it doesn't hurt my business, and when I asked about it I was given enough information to allay any of my fears about their "being uncderhanded".

In other words, I had a question about the business practices of my main vendor. I called and asked them about it and they answered my questions. I feel good with the answer I got DIRECTLY from the mouth of the hand that feeds my business and I didn't have to resort to gossiping about them.

Love these perpetual LJ threads. I'm sorry they "suck", don't buy from them. But if you don't buy from them then they'll sell to those that do.
 
I've heard of several other home based framers that were "grandfathered". That's good for them. I hear a lot of bad about LJ but I also hear a lot good about them. Personally, they treated me rudely and disrespectfully when I originally contacted them so I can guarantee that LJ will never be shown/sold in my shop. Truthfully, I believe LJ made a mistake by not selling to home based framers that have the proper license/resale certificates. I believe in the next couple of years we are going to see LJ loose a lot store front customers, with this economy, there is going to be a lot of shops that will either close or go home based, just my 2 cents.
 
I've had a homebased shop for 36 years. I have a room seperate from my shop for customers with display of at least 3 suppliers.
Chop Express called me their largest 'little guy" for quite a few years.
LJ wouldn't even talk to me.
A year later when I was hired to frame everything in the XXX (chocolate) corporate offices, I hope the Evil Framing God let them know about it!
 
Perhaps all those with home based businesses that have been snubbed by L-J in the past can now place their orders online through the documounts.com site.
 
Kyle Henson, why do you think the home based framers want to place an order with LJ? I'm a home based framer and I do as much business as many store front shops, it is LJ's policy so they can sink with that policy, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if they did and it wouldn't hurt my feelings in the slightest.
 
IMHO, it has much to do with branding and image. I wouldn't spend millions of dollars on marketing and advertising only to have my product displayed for sale in someones garage. Some home based framers may want to order L-J. There always seems to be some lamenting the fact that L-J doesn't sell to them.
 
Kyle Henson said:
Perhaps all those with home based businesses that have been snubbed by L-J in the past can now place their orders online through the documounts.com site.
Click to expand...


Not sure if this was meant to be wickedly funny or a valid
suggestion, but it sure is unexpected to see this sort of
dichotomy in how LJ does business, isn't it? It's a mad,
mad, mad, mad world.... :icon45:...:popc:

 
It was suppose to be a valid suggestion. There pricing seems to be only slightly higher than my costs. My L-J rep said that documounts.com was being geared to hobbyist/crafters.
 
Bob Doyle said:
I think the "big guys" got big by not pissing off us little guys that buy from them. So I don't think I can say that I'm sorry that they have a policy not to sell to my hobbyist, or artist, or fly by night competitors. It helps to keep frame shops like me loyal!
Click to expand...

Kyle Henson said:
IMHO, it has much to do with branding and image. I wouldn't spend millions of dollars on marketing and advertising only to have my product displayed for sale in someones garage. Some home based framers may want to order L-J. There always seems to be some lamenting the fact that L-J doesn't sell to them.
Click to expand...

It's sad to see such small mindness in some people here to think that just because they pay rent to someone else, instead of investing in their own buildings that they are somehow superior to "Home Grown". I am among the first to say that there are hobbyists and crafters out there, but there are many QUALITY framers that have their own buildings. Mine is over two thousand sq ft on 330 acres sitting on our 15 acre lake and you have the gall to say that your property that you rent makes you a better framer!!!


Tom
 
Thedra, I would never pass judgment on the quality of any framer I did not know. I made no such broad geralization in my post. My apologies if you took offense to ther terms hobbyist/crafters. It is two different market segments. Some companies are going to market to both, some are going to market to one or the other.
 
Thedra said:
It's sad to see such small mindness in some people here to think that just because they pay rent to someone else, instead of investing in their own buildings that they are somehow superior to "Home Grown". I am among the first to say that there are hobbyists and crafters out there, but there are many QUALITY framers that have their own buildings. Mine is over two thousand sq ft on 330 acres sitting on our 15 acre lake and you have the gall to say that your property that you rent makes you a better framer!!!


Tom
Click to expand...
Pity ...I DO pay rent somewhere!!! granted it`s a wholesale showroom at the Americas mart(decor,not framing,but who cares,really) ,but it`s a legit setup!(At last accounting 3K a month min+window rental.)I also pay BUSINESS tax in 3 states....I did not want an account,I merely wanted the catalog,I pay up front,and want stuff shipped.EVERY other wholesale of EVERY other material I need(sculpting,finishing etc) works with me,and appreciates the pre pay...I do not mind the policy,like I said tell me "sorry we can`t sell to you" I will politely say "sorry",and bow out nicely.I have had to do that to MY wholesale customers at the market....Difference is....I`m very polite...The a** clowns I dealt with at LJ,WEREN`T....And that`s my complaint.I think their expansion is actually a good move,who wouldn`t make their biz bigger/better if they get a chance? However I still feel the freakin sting from this gem" Perhaps a hobbiest such as yourself could find one of our retailers to work with." twice(or more )retail....That`ll move,I think not. Gee thanks................................L.
 
As a whole, if LJ sells to me or not really doesn't bother me! And I really do not care if someone feels I'm a hobbyist, let everyone have their own opinion! What frosts me is when a customer who thinks I am a good framer, (now this is the person whose opinion I worry about) brings me in a frame to match up with and I'm shut out of the game because it is LJ. Perhaps worst is to have to send the customer to another framer who may say bad things about me because I can't get LJ Material. :fire:

That is the part I feel is unfair!!!

Tom
 
What really pi**es me off are these dumb s**** that think because I am home based that I don't have expenses or experience. The only expense I don't have that a store front has is a lease payment; I still pay heat, electricity, water, taxes, Capax Insurance, etc - come-on store fronts get real, we operate a business just like you.

As far as experience and quality - guess again, "store front" framers that pass judgment and generalize about us home based framers without having a clue of our quality are pure and simply wrong. There are many of us home based framers that are former store front framers; in fact there are two International Framing Educators, that I know of, that are home based framers. You store front owners that want to pick on us home based better find some better reasons to do so, we are not as dumb as you want to believe and believe it or not, many more of you store front owners are joining our ranks daily because some of you are starting to see the benefits.:shrug:
 
By the way Kyle Henson, there are quite a few suppliers that don't have their nose in the air like LJ does and are more than happy to display their corner samples in "MY GARAGE" but then again with over 20K in moulding sales in a year I guess some suppliers like Omega, Superior, TC, Studio, and a few others are willing to be put down to my level...
 
As a non-US framer this all strikes me as very odd.:icon11: I can appreciate them not dealing with DIY dabblers, as would all their professional customers no doubt. But to insist you have a 'store front' seems weird. What if you do work purely for the trade and don't operate a walk-in, " Can you frame this?" service?
Or have a setup framing stuff to wholesale? A factory in other words.

This kind of customer would use miles of moulding. Are they going to knock back a huge order?

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?:confused:
 
Prospero, Your thinking is pretty much correct. The problem is that LJ make some exceptions but it pretty much depends upon where you are located. I'm sure they would sell to a factory because it isn't considered a home based shop - the only stores I know that they don't like to sell to are shops at a residence. I don't need another supplier so LJ not selling to me is no hardship - I get wonderful moulding from all of my other suppliers and I have never been asked by any of my customers for a specific LJ moulding. Us home based framers make to big of a deal out of not being able to buy from LJ - I will exclude myself from that statement because I don't need or want their product, I just wish more of the home based framers felt the same way.
 
Frankly I am glad I am not being under cut by the homebased framers on this one..
 
A local framer that was a friend of mine moved his business to his garage, and was still buying from LJ the whole time he was open (two years). They just wouldn't bring the stuff directly to his house. They would call him, and he had to meet them at the gas station on the corner to get his order.

I'm not a big orderer from LJ, but I like that they try not to selling to anyone that calls and wants a catalog. Most of my suppliers now will sell to anyone that wants the product. There is nothing worse that dealing with some customer, that comes in and has a price list and wants to fight with me on my prices. It seems to happen a few times a year, where they want to know how I have the nerve to charge 2x for a mat board when it only costs x.

I also started out of my basement, and I feel for all of the people that are trying to get a start from the basement. I felt back then, and still do think there should be a cut off point.
 
RParrish, I guess I don't know what you are talking about being undercut - maybe you are charging to much. I know that the local store fronts shops in my immediate area are lower priced than I am, does that mean I'm being undercut? I charge for my quality and my customers know that, so even with my higher prices there is no problem, my customers know they are getting a high quality product.
 
Joe and Tom, sorry that you feel offended. I was not referring to framers that work, and sell and do business out of their homes, but to people that make frames in their homes. I was referring to non-professional people that "knock out" frames, not people that are doing framing in earnest.

There are frame shops that are in retail store fronts that know very little about framing. we all have had to clean up after their mistakes. There are home based framers that are craftsmen, that put all others to shame. Then there are the others.

If you have a reseller number and if you have a portion of your home dedicated to framing, and you take in customers and display moulding to them then you should be able to get an account from LJ. That's a home business. If you live in a mixed commercial residential area and are running a commercial enterprise from your home then that should qualify you for the account.

But really, if you have a home workshop and do framing once in a while out of a corner of your woodworking room do you really think that should be considered the same thing as my shop? Or your business?
 
Joe I applaud you for charging what you are worth. The general feeling is that the home based framer doesn't. Because is a hobby, not a business.

Those of you that are home based that are serious are a plus to the industry. I know and respect Erin around the corner. She works out of her house, she's home based, and she's excellent at what she does. I'd never bash her, I also buy with her. If I'm out of something I'll call her, she has called me to get things from vendors. We work together. She takes the craft seriously, it's not a hobby.
 
Bob Doyle said:
But really, if you have a home workshop and do framing once in a while out of a corner of your woodworking room do you really think that should be considered the same thing as my shop? Or your business?
Click to expand...

No I don't and I also think and if LJ actually went with your well thought out alternatives we would not be having this conservation. They don't.

The reason I am in this conservation at all is the feeling that some on this board think we are the devil that is taking away customers from you and making your children walk barefoot and go hungry. We are business people making a living from framing and believe me I do not "undercut prices" because I don't pay rent. I can price lower sometimes because I have storage that I buy box lots and overstocks along with normal frame lots. I have a phaedra saw system, a cassesse 89 v nailer and make almost all my own frames. I can frame overnight where many of them must order "just-in-time". I have an esterly speedmat pnuematic and a wizard 8000. Therefore there is little that I can not offer. But you know what I still look after my margins because if I don't make money on every job I don't eat and if you ever saw a picture of me you would see that I like to eat.

Not mad (?) just want to set the record.

As a postscript in the next month I will probably get a 500 sq ft STOREFRONT. Still will be doing all my construction at the other building and still seeing customers there also but in spirit I will still be home grown!!!!

Tom
 
prospero said:
. What if you do work purely for the trade and don't operate a walk-in, " Can you frame this?" service?
Or have a setup framing stuff to wholesale? A factory in other words.
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?:confused:
Click to expand...

I think by "store front" they mean you have some type of on going physical address, like a retail store, a commercial location or a warehouse.
 
Joe B said:
RParrish, I guess I don't know what you are talking about being undercut - maybe you are charging to much.
Click to expand...

I did not intend to insult you. You have to understand that we are all speaking in terms of our own personal experiences as being generalities. I know home based framers that do incredible work, but they also cater to many people at the local Art School and I knw they are basically keystoning thier cost on certain items becasue they don't have the expences I do. My experience, my opinion.
 
Larson Juhl will sell to home based framers.

You have to have a 'dedicated space' and a 'sign out front'.

That is the criteria.

If you don't meet that, then they won't sell to you.

If you do meet that, but hate them for what ever reason, buy from someone else.

There is a lot of suppliers out there that would love to have your business.
 
Amen Jerry. That is well said and as far as I know accurate. We all need to agree to disagree when it comes to LJ.
 
Jerry Ervin said:
Larson Juhl will sell to home based framers.
You have to have a 'dedicated space' and a 'sign out front'.
That is the criteria.
If you don't meet that, then they won't sell to you.
Click to expand...

I know in Va Beach, the city ordinance says you cannot have customers coming and going from your house in a residential area, which is most of Va. Beach.

We have a lot of home based framers here that operate "under the radar" and would not be able to put up a sign without the city coming down on them.

I don't mind home based framers as long as they have a city business license, a State of VA. sales tax number, a federal ID number, and abide by the zoning rules and regulations set up by the city of Va. Beach.
 
Tom, when I saw the seperation between home based and store front, it brought to mind many older threads about the animosity between the two groups. Flase animosities because the seperation should/could fall along professional and hobbyist, or serious and "winging it till a real job comes along".For me, and for you this is a real job.

So I don't buy from LJ though I can, if you really want to buy from LJ then call the rep and have him/her come out and see your operation. You're better set up than many "real" framers, store front operations. And find out if they won't take you on because of your location, or because they don't want to drive to you. If they don't have a route near you then that's a cowardly way to deny you an account. Offer to get your stuff UPS-ed, but ask fo rit to be sent no charge.

I was told that if you accept being treated with the lower hand you'll always be treated with the lower hand. But if you show them that you have the upper hand, and that they want your business (not the other way around) then "they" will try to earn your business.

Right now you're letting LJ have the upper hand and you resent them for it. Show their rep your operation, your skills, by going to the trade show. Hand your card to the other vendors there and weigh LJs business and see if you really want it.
 
I don’t want to appear to be an apologist for Larson-Juhl, but I think one of the reasons that they want a legitimate “store front” (or some brick and mortar facsimile) is that, like Other Bill stated, many garage and basement framers are in residential neighborhoods.

Driving a truck through narrow, winding streets (or out in the boondocks) may be a liability issue for them. They may feel that a truck is not an appropriate vehicle to slalom through a residential neighborhood filled with hot wheels or skateboards littering the streets.

Also, mowing down toddlers playing hopscotch in the streets would not be particularly good for public relations.
 
I have a 1200 sq. ft. shop with regular business hours and they won't sell to me. I get tractor trailer deliveries about every month and they have no problems getting to me.
Yet they sell to one of my customers who is a photographer, not a framer and has no room for a big truck to deliver.
She buys frames from them and then I put it all together.
I have talked to their rep and he says it is an insurance thing why they will not deliver to a residential address. I can live without them with no problems.
Randy
 
LJ has to love the Grumble - they get a lot of free advertisement from us. I guess I have said my piece and am really tired of hearing how good or how bad LJ is - there are just to many other good treads out there to keep wasting my time on LJ and their policies.
 
Right. I think I see where they are coming from. I wouldn't be too happy dealing with a 'trade' supplier who sold to anyone who called.

I have had some odd experiences with trade accounts. I once went into local PC World looking for a new monitor. They had about three on display, none of which was what I wanted. The sales guy said there was a much bigger range in their 'trade' catalogue. "OK", I said. "I'm buying for a business so let's have a look. And yes, I will open an account...." Filled in all the forms. Found a great 21" Sony monitor, just what I wanted and very cheap. Then they said I would have to let them have a written order on headed notepaper. No probs, but I didn't have any with me. "That's alright" they said, "You can fax it though". I didn't have a fax so I asked if I could E-Mail it. "Oh no, we can't except orders by E-Mail". I was somewhat taken aback by this, bearing in mind where I was buying from. I said I would post it in. When I got home I had a look on the web and bought one online from another company. Even better deal and a man in a truck delivered it the next day.:) I do drop into PC World now and again if I want any little things, but I have never used my business account. Any big stuff I can get elsewere much easier.

Rule #1 Never make it difficult for a customer to spend money.

There was also a framing supplier who I used to buy a lot of stuff from. They weren't all that far away and someone told me they have a rack full of bargain mouldings. So one day I needed some matboard so I drove over to have a look. Walked up to the trade counter and after about 10 mins someone came up to see what I wanted. I asked if they had whatever matboard in stock. Now the correct response would have been something like, "One moment Sir, I will just check for you". Instead I got a curt, if not haughty, "We only sell in full packs".
As it happened I wanted 5 packs, but I might have wanted 1000 for all they knew. This 'defensive' response gave me a distinctly negative impression of the whole company and I never bought anything else from them again.
(They are no longer trading btw.:icon11:)

I can't help thinking some suppliers miss out on a lot of business though attitudes like this. At least they could send a rep around to give the place the onceover and establish that you are a bona fide business rather than setting down silly conditions such as a sign out front.:icon21:

Here endedth tonite's rant.:soapbox:
 
Ya know what I think I want to do? I think I want to frame for another 5 years or so with just a few other people, make an obscene amount of money and retire to someplace where the girls don't wear any tops. So I think I'll do that.

Now I'm not going to get the volume if I frame out of a house so I'm not going to do that. And I'm not going to achieve obscene money status if I frame for $45 so I'm not going to do that. I guess I'll just remain the dinosaur retail store operating frame shop owner.

Then you guys can do whatever.... buy from LJ from a double-wide for all I care. I'm getting too old for all of this.

I can't imagine LJ actually being rude to people, but apparently they did leave some people less than happy with their reparte. I can understand Luddite's reaction. Mill Pond Press did the same thing to me. I added a location in a new mall at the same time as another one of their dealers. They told me "You just stick to selling your little posters and let the people who know what they are doing sell the good prints." Then she hung up. Little did they know that they were the low end of my sales, price point wise. And I sold a lot more Somerset than them, so I guess they didn't care much but #### I sold some. They didn't have to revoke my dealership. Sooo, same thing and believe me all these years later I still get pissed.

I bet home based people will get a softer reception if they try in these times though. Maybe LJ will still say no, but differently. Maybe they won't. Bahhh, I have my eyes pointed towards the drinks with the little umbrellas.
 
I think attitudes have changed over the years. When I first started (at home:icon11:), certain suppliers were very reluctant to sell to me. They wanted huge minimum orders and opening accounts was a problem as I obviously could not supply trade references. One particular matboard supplier wanted me to stock the whole range. Fortunately, a rep that used to visit me was an old hand in the biz and understood my difficulties. Basically he got my account established. Eventually I got a 'store front' and over the years I bought loads of stuff from his company. People like that are worth a lot, both to the framer and the company they represent.

There was (still is) one company that will sell to anybody. They are well known as a 'law unto themselves' in the UK trade. As well as framing stuff they sell cheap art materials, which makes them very popular with artists. I bought at lot of moulding from them in the early days. They would send you one stick if you wanted.:)

I can understand the delivering to residential areas thing. But most framers are not huge setups. No fleets of huge trucks delivering day and night. No worse than delivering other packages to the average household.:confused:
 
I recently closed my shop in another State and moved. LJ closed my account and I had to go through the whole new account garbage again in my new State. To me that is a complete waste of time, serves nobody but their sales staff.
About working out of your home: LJ must loose zillions by now not allowing people order to their home-stores. What is the big deal? I have never had anyone coming to my storefront shop and demanding to tell them who made a certain moulding. Even if I stated they would not care if it was Roma or LJ, they want the job done nice, get their money worth and that is the bottom line. There is a reason why people close their stores and start work out of their homes: they love the job but in the current economy can't pay a mortgage and a rent on a store. LJ needs to lighten up!
 
2400 said:
I recently closed my shop in another State and moved. LJ closed my account and I had to go through the whole new account garbage again in my new State. To me that is a complete waste of time, serves nobody but their sales staff.
About working out of your home: LJ must loose zillions by now not allowing people order to their home-stores. What is the big deal? I have never had anyone coming to my storefront shop and demanding to tell them who made a certain moulding. Even if I stated they would not care if it was Roma or LJ, they want the job done nice, get their money worth and that is the bottom line. There is a reason why people close their stores and start work out of their homes: they love the job but in the current economy can't pay a mortgage and a rent on a store. LJ needs to lighten up!
Click to expand...

I LJ would (by some slim chance) "lighten up" and come to my home-based business willing to sell to me i would proudly tell them to
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"Go Fly A Kite!" :soapbox:
 
ahohen1 said:
I LJ would (by some slim chance) "lighten up" and come to my home-based business willing to sell to me i would proudly tell them to
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"Go Fly A Kite!" :soapbox:
Click to expand...

You are not alone - I will close up my doors before I ever let LJ samples in my home based shop - mark my words, one day, not to far into the future, LJ is will be sorry for how they treated us home based framers. :beer:
 
It occurs to me that LJ's logic about not selling to home based framers is like the Auto makers efforts to reduce the number of dealers in the country.

My first thought is why?

The experts respond with reasons like:
Credit Risk.
Administrative Cost.
Price support.... ( fewer dealers means less competition and price comparison)

As a side note: Eastman Kodak has steadily reduced the number of dealers who buy direct. As it sits right now they have no small dealers and if I desire to purchase something I buy it from a distributor. I burn up thousands of dollars worth of Kodak paper each year. You could also buy a roll of paper for my same price.

Fuji and Epson are moving in the same direction.

Does this sound familiar? (Documounts)

I don't run a multi-million dollar business but there must be some logic to their decisions.

Doug
 
DVieau2 said:
It occurs to me that LJ logic about not selling to home based framers is like the Auto makers efforts to reduce the number of dealers in the country.

My first thought is why?

The experts respond with reasons like:
Credit Risk.
Administrative Cost.
Price support.... ( fewer dealers means less competition and price comparison)

Doug
Click to expand...

So does that mean I can buy a new car get financing and service from some guy's basement?
 
Doug,

That dog just don't hunt...

1. I would say that a home based framer is no more of a credit risk than a store front, in fact probably less
2. Administration Cost? it won't cost any more to set up a home based account that a store front account
3. Price support.... ( fewer dealers means less competition and price comparison). I get my mouldings and supplies from 5 different suppliers now. The only thing they are missing out on is a lot of sales, in my shop between equipment and supplies just last year they didn't get part of the 34K I spent, and the thing that will really hurt them is the day when they do need our business and the majority of us will not give it to them. In my opinion the only reason they stopped selling to the home based is to give the appearance of being a step above the rest of the suppliers that do sell to the us. That choice is going to come back to bite them and they will be sorry for it - they aren't any better than other suppliers, in fact with that policy they showed the opposite.
 
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