Do you offer Polystyrene Mouldings in your shop? March 2007 Survey

[Mike Labbe]

MONTHLY GRUMBLE SURVEY & DISCUSSION - MARCH 2007

DO YOU CARRY POLYSTYRENE MOULDINGS IN YOUR SHOP? WHY OR WHY NOT?

Please select as many choices as necessary. Your input and discussion are greatly appreciated!

A special thank you to Jim Miller for this month's topic.

My apologies for the format of the poll. There were multiple questions, and our new software only allows a single question - so I had to be a bit creative. I will break them apart when the poll is complete.

RESULTS from previous grumbler surveys: LINK TO RESULTS

-This survey is intended for framers.
-Your poll selections are anonymous, although discussion is public and encouraged.
- Results represent only a small sample of the industry, and should NOT be used as a planning tool or business plan.
-This survey is purely for entertainment and discussion.

 

[JFeig]

I have a sensitivity to the adhesive off gassing and thus prefer not to use.

 

[Justin Alvarez]

We don't sell them because we believe that they look cheap or cheap knock-offs. The other reason is, even if this is a myth, but of the bottom length "Bowing" over time from the weight of the glass. Thats our reasoning..

 

[happycamper]

We sell them in the shop but only as a "last ditch " to not loose the sale. We only have about 10 out in a separate area by themselves. I restrict the size of art they are on to about 16 by 20. When assembling, some of them shed the finish from the inside...great!

 

[JPete]

We had a very nice line of wider frames and our supplier dropped them. They were great for artist canvas.

 

[Paul N]

Nope; I'd rather slice my new cornea with a CMC blade......

 

[Val]

I haven't in the past, but after taking Bob Carter's "Think Like a Retailer, Not Like a Framer" class, and being fooled by 2 poly corners that were part of a pricing "test" (not sure if I passed or failed! Ha!), I'm definately going to keep an open mind and look into it. Some samples from (I can't remember the company name, shame on me) should be arriving any day. They're not the old plastic frames of the past.

Recently, I was cutting a moulding that was in the old inventory from previous owner and didn't realize it was a poly until I went to join it. Used normal corner weld glue and v-nailed as usual. Worked fine. Easy to use and looked like "the real thing"....convinced me to investigate further.

 

[Uncle Eli]

I HATE the old style Poly mouldings, with big honeycombesq holes inside, and them flopping around like a wet noodle when you're trying to store, and or chop, and them looking cheap, and sagging, and just not being structurally sound for larger long term pieces.
HOWEVER, Wall Moulding has made some serious advancements in the pysical makeup of their poly. The material is FAR more dense than say a Fox (Passaic NJ) They almost exclusively use a black poly vs the old yellow stuff, and this enables them to have a cleaner look on their finishes, The have a large selection of 3-5 in wide poly's and since the material is so dense, you don't ahve to worry about sagging. Their Price points are very competitive as well. I have said this before and will contiue to profess my support for their product. If you have written off poly's for all the reasons I started with, atleast check them out. I know they'll be in Baltimore, swing by and just check it out. (and no, I'm not being paid for this I really believe it.)

 

[Cliff Wilson]

I have a saw. It seems to melt the poly. I don't have a chopper. I don't want to add other adhesives and or change the way I cut and join. I might some day. I know others have told me a saw will cut it, but mine won't. I've tried. Horrible mess.

 

[UzZx32QU]

Let me be clear...



It's JUNK !!!

I feel better now.

framer

 

[Dave]

I've only done patch 'n' fix jobs on polys that folks bring in and shouldn't pass judgement because I'm sure these are the early ones that foster the bad reputation they seem to have had within the industry... :sleep:

I checked "Other" because I haven't done my homework on them and am being lazy trusting that my fellow framers will tell me when to jump.

Love you guys!

Thanks.

Dave Makielski

 

[Jerry Ervin]

I tried really really hard a year or so ago to add poly to my business.

I learned a lot on how to cut and join and tried many different sources.

Bottom line, my customers just want accept it. Although, I bet their buying pre-frames from big boxes and don't know it.

I may be absolutely wrong, but I think with the retail public it is a matter of 'ignorance is bliss". If they know it, it is unacceptable. If they don't know it....


I am still having some work return due to bowing. I hate it!

Now Jim Miller can tell you how great it is.



Sorry Jim no malice intended.

 

[Framerguy]

I just finished joining over 30 of the poly mouldings. I wouldn't have given you a nickel for the lot of them 5 years ago but these (from Wall Moulding) are closed cell and heavy as their wood counterpart and seem to be very strong after joining. I won't be putting the "I can't live without them" seal of approval on them as yet but I AM giving them a chance to prove themselves.

The finishes of the mouldings from Wall Moulding are great and they join absolutely miter tight even with Wall's chops! (No bad against Wall's chops but there have been instances where a distributor's chops generally speaking have left something to be desired).

I have to say that I am fairly impressed with them so far. Time will tell if I come back with my words on a plate with lettuce and mayo.

 

[Jim Miller]

...with the retail public it is a matter of 'ignorance is bliss". If they know it, it is unacceptable. If they don't know it....

I am still having some work return due to bowing. I hate it!

Now Jim Miller can tell you how great it is.

Sorry Jim no malice intended.

No offense taken, Jerry.

Poly mouldngs are no better or worse than any other framing products, and every one of them has a place in our industry.

If you have a bowing problem with a poly frame, it is probably because you fitted it the same way you would fit a wood frame. Poly mouldings are more flexible than wood, so they require a slightly different fitting procedure. Poly mouldings, when properly fitted, will not bow. At all. Period. In more than 6 years of using polys, none have come back bowed.

In my experience, customers do not resist poly mouldings when they are presented properly. The main difficulty in selling poly mouldings is that frame designers offer them as a cheap alternative to wood, and point out their disadvantages. In my shop we talk about their advantages, and they are not cheap -- usually within 20% of similar-looking wood.

If you don't like poly mouldings, and have all the framing business you want using wood mouldings, more power to you.

 

[Val]

If you have a bowing problem with a poly frame, it is probably because you fitted it the same way you would fit a wood frame. Poly mouldings are more flexible than wood, so they require a slightly different fitting procedure. Poly mouldings, when properly fitted, will not bow.

Please explain the difference for us, Jim.

 

[D_Derbonne]

I have tried using them but have had quality issues with the supplier I was using.
I use a chopper and get big cavities when chopping which make them impossible to join.
I tried ordering chops from the same vendor but the quality isn't very good so I keep some under the counter.

I also have issues with the special glue required to join these frames.

All that said, I may try them again in the future.

 

[Bob Carter]

One thing this "old dog" has learned with polys is to use a big enough (and sturdy enough) product to support the size. Not much different than using too small a metal or too thin a wood, I suspect

Another great idea we embraced was that a lot of our preframed art has a laminate in lieu of glass. It comes in several textures and customers really respond to the choices where, in our stores anyway, the laminates outsell glass substantially

And, of course, when you use WallBuddies, you further reduce that problem of bowing

I'm with Jim-If this product is not for you-great

We have found it to be a viable part of our offerings and has single-handlely resurrected our preframed art category

But, just like Diet Coke, it ain't for everybody

 

[Jerry Ervin]

Thanks for sharing Bob & Jim.

Everyone I have had return without fail was finished with laminate or Z-Gel instead of glass. None with glass have returned.

Two from the same run of moulding was 3 1/2 inches wide and over an inch thick.

I guess Jim's proper fitting means that you need glass for rigidity.

 

[Whynot]

It further takes away from you the magic and respectability of mastering an art and providing long lasting, treasured valuables to your art-loving costumers. The less of an artis(t)an you are, the more diminished and replaceable you become and your work can be mimicked and mass-produced by "kids" and/or machines. This is a tempting trend and a trap hard to avoid because there is some profit to be made even as you ride down toward your own fateful dissolution. So you become more of a retailer and less of a framer by day, which after all is not that much of a tragedy for many of you. My 2p.

 

[Jim Miller]

Fitting Poly Frames

Please explain the difference for us, Jim.

1. Fill the rabbet depth with filler board(s). If it is really deep, make shadowbox sides out of foam center board scrap to elevate the filler board to be flush with the frame's back. And the final filler board should fit within 1/16" all the way around. That is, no more than the usual 1/8" tolerance for frame parts.

2. After fitting points have been installed (use plenty of them, as usual with wood), bridge the gap between frame and filler by taping over the fitting points all the way around the frame. To serve this purpose on most jobs I use 2" wide clear packing tape, which is inexpensive and sticks well to both surfaces. The tape integrates the moulding with the filler board. Some cars have "unitized construction" -- well, this is the same concept applied to frames.

This technique works equally well with wood frames that are unusually narrow for the frame size, or snot wood.

 

[Jim Miller]

Everyone I have had return without fail was finished with laminate or Z-Gel instead of glass. None with glass have returned.

Two from the same run of moulding was 3 1/2 inches wide and over an inch thick.

I guess Jim's proper fitting means that you need glass for rigidity.

No. Glass is not required for rigidity. Laminates work just fine.

Wow. I thought you were talking about a 32" x 40" frame made of 1" wide poly. That might bow if it isn't fitted properly, but I can't understand how a 3-1/2" wide moulding made of anything could bow in normal conditions.

Jerry, what were the frame dimensions and what moulding are you talking about, specifically? If you wish not to mention names here, please reply privately.

 

[John Ranes II CPF GCF]

You're right Bob!

....But, just like Diet Coke, it ain't for everybody

Don't give me a Pepsi....Don't give me a Cherry-Coke either.

It's Coke for me, as you all know....it's the REAL thing!









Does this tell you where I stand on the Poly Moulding question? :kaffeetrinker_2:

 

[Pat Murphey]

I don't think my situation fits the survey very well - I carry a very limited (4) number of samples of Munn's Frame Guild - Wood frame reinforced poly frames, with antiqued metal leaf finishes, that are perfect for the customer that wants to spend $1500 instead of $3000 for a frame.

 

[TessaE]

I just don't have any experience with them, and I have not had much exposure to them.
or, maybe thats the same thing.

 

[Mecianne]

Don't do it....won't do it. If it comes to being that kind of retailer, I'll just give up and go work at Wal-Mart. And that's just my 2 cents ;-)

 

[Jim Miller]

... If it comes to being that kind of retailer...

What kind of retailer?

 

[Lori Drugan]

Yowza, this is one huge mixed bag of thoughts on poly mouldings. I have to admit I have no knowledge of the product. I have never worked with it, except when a few customers have brought them to me to repair. And then I couldn't offer much help.

I'll also admit I've been one of those framers(not in the retailer mind set) who was a total snob because of past experiences. But, I also don't want to be one who is never going to be open to new and improved product. So I'm going to reserve an opinion until I learn more.

Still waiting to see if Jim is going to have a class in Baltimore.

Lori

 

[Bruce Charbonneau]

I have a small shop in a small city in the middle of British Columbia. I offer all services from plaquemounting to giclee reproduction and all mouldings from poly to metal to low end wood through to high end Roma and watergilds. It is my belief that you cant go wrong with your client if you offer the entire range of products and prices available. And through these offerings I find I have not lost a sale in the 6 months I have been in this city.

Bruce

 

[artfolio]

I was a scepic when these frames first appeared in Australia but a very smart rep convinced me by giving me two lengths of fairly big ornate moulding and a tube of stickum and telling me to "just try it".

I did, and have been using it ever since.

Like any other type of mouldings, there are good ones and crap ones and you just have to find your way around them. Some of the early finishes definitely looked "plastic" and probably turned more than a few people off the whole scene but there are some very nice looking ones out there now.

I have about a dozen on my board and most customers don't realise they are synthetics until I turn them over and explain it to them. Generally they find the price a pleasant surprise and I have a higher markup to keep me smiling so it is win/win.

 

[Jim Miller]

...So I'm going to reserve an opinion until I learn more.

Still waiting to see if Jim is going to have a class in Baltimore.

You are wise to keep an open mind, Lori. Our industry is changing so rapidly that all of us will sooner or later have to adapt to significant changes in what we sell and how we sell it. Poly mouldings are only one example of what's new and changing in framing.

Sorry, but it appears too late to schedule a class in Baltimore. First, I have to find a corporate sponsor and finish developing the class outline. I'm working on it, but these things do not happen overnight. The whole process might take half a year, and we're only three months into this one.

 

[deaconsbench]

It further takes away from you the magic and respectability of mastering an art and providing long lasting, treasured valuables to your art-loving costumers. The less of an artis(t)an you are, the more diminished and replaceable you become and your work can be mimicked and mass-produced by "kids" and/or machines. This is a tempting trend and a trap hard to avoid because there is some profit to be made even as you ride down toward your own fateful dissolution. So you become more of a retailer and less of a framer by day, which after all is not that much of a tragedy for many of you. My 2p.

Some harsh words, Cornel. I suspect you are much more concerned about your demise, rather than any of ours.

 

[Bob Carter]

I think Cornel's message is valid and many of the framers that aspire to higher degree of craftsmanship have a legitimate concern

I think there are a couple of problems that arise for too many us

One is that a pretty large number of us confuse "our" craftsmanship with some of the very few true artisans. I suspect that if you asked 100 framers to rate themselves on craftsmanship, design and skill on a 1 to 10 scale, 97 would suggest that they are 10's

And, we know that ain't so. Let's face it, there are only a few Brian Wolff's, Jim Miller's and Cornel's out there (just like there are only a few Ruth's Chris, Ferrari and Tiffany's). The rest of us need to find successful ways to reach greater numbers through venues other than "extraordinary" skills

The other part of the equation is that there are only so many consumers that live (and buy) in the "rarified" air that we think they should. For the same reason that airliners only have about 5% of the seats as "First Class"
It's not an education problem, it's a realization of the marketplace problem

People like Cornel may easily be able to prosper at that "5%" strata and seeing his work, I don't doubt it.

Most of us simply have to rely upon the 95% of the great unwashed that simply don't care to spend what it takes for a "First Class" ticket

How many of us flew Southwest to the WCAF show?

How many of us flew First Class?

I understand perfectly Cornel's point and I would hate to see "First Class" air travel disappear, too

But, we do need to "fly" in the real world

 

[Jim Miller]

Great analogy about flying first class, Bob.

I have seen Cornel's products, and respect his ability to create them and bring them succesfully to our market. I can understand his (and others') concern about poly mouldings eroding the quality of framing, generally.

On the other hand, change is inevitable and I believe that poly mouldings are only one part of a growing trend. That is, the polarizing of our industry. Nearly all of us used to be in the mid-range of framing quality and prices, just a few years ago. Now our market is changing, and we are being forced to embrace the high end or the low end, or in some niches, both.

To put it another way, I don't think Cornel, Rhonda Feinmann, and others who provide the very best of our industry need to be concerned. Their market will always be there in some form or another. Trouble is, some of us have to sell other products responsive to our customers' demands, as well.

 

[Framerguy]

I keep the poly samples out of direct access for my customers. I have a few reasons for doing this and I think that some of us are viewing poly mouldings in the wrong role. They don't necessarily have to take the place of your wood mouldings that you show to your customers. Rather, I plan to use them for a sale saver, and I had 2 sales this week that would have walked out the door had I not had the polys to show these customers.

When a customer comes in needing framing I always start with a few questions about their preferences, the background of the piece when appropriate, and some other things that I feel are pertinent to making mat and moulding decisions. I always start out with wood mouldings which seem to fit the framing design and the wishes of the customer and go from there. If I can't find a wood that satisfies the customer's needs, usually the cost part of their needs, then I pull out some poly samples. I never make a big deal about the makeup of the mouldings, poly or wood, but I will honestly answer any questions about the samples if asked. Usually the customer doesn't even recognize the differences in the samples like we would by working with them day in and day out. They simply want something that looks good at a price point that they can afford or one they can rationalize to their spouse when they get home.

We do a lot of condo work and many times have 15 to 30 framed pieces to do for an entire condo or townhome. When the condo is being rented out the value of art that is displayed goes way down because the owners don't want valuable art ripped off by some weekender that needs a convenient souvenir of their vacation in Paradise. I sell security hangers for this purpose and we have recently put in a line of nice prints for the condo owners who don't want to invest in original art just to have it stolen. All of this costs money and the addition of polys to our offerings have already proven to be a profitable one for us while saving the customer the dollars that they see going out for an equivalent wood moulding.

You can say what you want about them, I forsee polystyrene mouldings to be the wave of the future for certain situations. I don't think that they will replace wood mouldings unless we simply run out of good wood to use for our purposes but I do predict that they will find a serious market for those customers who don't want to spend the bucks for a quality product. Most of the polys I show have the look of quality but not the quality of a like moulding in wood with a similar finish. And they are beginning to sell although we have only had them displayed for a few weeks.

 

[Whynot]

Deaconsbench,

I think that you are wrong here. I am such a small quantity that I can survive based on those 5% framers who require and offer good quality frames. My niche is not likely to be threatened by plastic frames. On an uplifting note it is with pleasure that I noticed my market actually growing larger. LJ itself is successfully developing and selling a high end picture frame line and many grumblers have been persuaded (by LJ, AMCI and the like) to try that quality frames themselves. Considering their posts on TG they are quite excited about and happy with adding those lines.

Bob, Jim,

I thank you for your words of appreciation for my frames. I tend to believe that you are right... but then I might be wrong

 

[artfolio]

Nothing like synthetic mouldings to stir up strong feelings.

I feel that they are the coming thing. Sure, some are a bit cheap looking and using that cyanoacrylate adhesive is a bit of a pain but they have come a long way in a few years. In a few more years, when trees get harder to find and timber costlier we may have no choice but to come to terms with new materials.

For me, they are a small but useful part of my range and if you belong to the "Yuck plastic" school of thought why not try having an objective look at them? You may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Whynot]

Plastic frames and quality frames are two different animals just like tin and wire jewelry are different animals from real, precious, rare and branded jewelry that they mimic. Now, after a certain point you can't bring together rich and poor, gross and refined, old money with no money people. I think that plastic frames represent the critical point which will eventually wedge a rift between framers just like tin, wire and colored glass did with jewelers when they entered the jewelry market.
Plastic frames offer good margins now but with volume and public awareness their cost, margins and prices will drop dramatically and that will shape the framing business. There is a (large) public likely to be interested in those plastic items and money waiting to be done in this field. But, in my opinion, this will be a different field that the traditional one and those who embrace plastic frames will end up doing a different business than traditional framers do today.

 

[jframe]

As the quality of wood mouldings declines while the prices go up, poly is bound to have a huge place in the future of picture frames moulding.

Remember when nobody believed space travel would be available to the general public? It's being done now.

 

[trofeo]

for environmental reasons, and health reasons i prefer not to sell them. the lack of quality and cheap-o looking finishes don't help their case either

 

[stud d]

I saw some in Atlanta? a couple years back that really shocked me. I thought they actually looked good and they were unique. I have not delt with any so I can not comment on that. I think it could be a valuable asset for many shops to have in their line.

I also think that many shops sell themselves short by not offering upper end items as well. Lets face it all the big boxes have the middle of the road stuff. So hitting the bottom and the top is pretty wise for the normal shop. Open yourself and your doors to more opportunity. If you close the door, why not turn off the lights and go home?

We all say this business is changing. Well these are two things that could keep me in business, so I am going to listen and learn.

PL

 

[Val]

the lack of quality and cheap-o looking finishes don't help their case either

In Bob Carter's "Think Like a Retailer, Not Like a Framer" class at WCAF, he had us guess the retail pricing of 4 different mouldings, based on how they looked. I guessed two at $25/foot, retail. They were beautiful, and I didn't know they were polys until he mentioned it and I looked closer. Fooled me, and I've been dealing with wood mouldings for years. They did not look cheap, and they were as nice as the two "normal" mouldings. I have totally changed my attitude about the poly mouldings since then, and anxious to see more.

Before then? Wouldn't even give them a second thought. Now? I'm giving them a second thought!!

 

[Whynot]

Val, you seem to confuse looks for things and see yourself as being in business with selling illusions. You are right, an original painting, say by Rembrandt, looks just like its copy. It fools (almost) everybody!
See, people, the cliff that I am talking about is already there in your mind. It always was there waiting to surface. Some are more retailers deep down than framers anyway, and would follow the money, regardless where they need to go for it. In fact they became framers for the very same reason.
This is not a reproach, but merely an observation. Besides, most items waiting to be framed don't deserve better than plastic and don’t have a considerable value or life expectancy.
Wonder what people will treasure their plastic framed computer reproduced illustration heirlooms? Perhaps the cyborgs.

 

[Framerguy]

Val, you seem to confuse looks for things and see yourself as being in business with selling illusions. You are right, an original painting, say by Rembrandt, looks just like its copy. It fools (almost) everybody!
See, people, the cliff that I am talking about is already there in your mind. It always was there waiting to surface. Some are more retailers deep down than framers anyway, and would follow the money, regardless where they need to go for it. In fact they became framers for the very same reason.
This is not a reproach, but merely an observation. Besides, most items waiting to be framed don't deserve better than plastic and don’t have a considerable value or life expectancy.
Wonder what people will treasure their plastic framed computer reproduced illustration heirlooms? Perhaps the cyborgs.

You make some very valid points, Cornel, and you are correct, the decisions were always there. It becomes obvious when new products emerge that tend to degrade the quality of what we are accustomed to using that we have to decide whether to take the hard line or cave in to the temptation of making more of the almighty dollar.

I have always prided myself with following the traditionalist line of framing and keeping with the ways of quality as best I could but now I have an easy scapegoat in that I am an employee and can easily cop a plea of "I don't make the decisions anymore, it's up to the boss now." And that is how it goes many times. But I still have this nagging feeling in the back of my head that I am bastardizing my beliefs in favor of garnishing more of the consumer dollar that is always floating out there waiting for someone to nab it. And aren't we all guilty of that same sin sometimes??

But we have to make decisions in the long run that will help keep our business flourishing and growing and bring in enough gross revenue to do what we expect to do with our lives. And, with that in mind, we forge ahead, sometimes, making compromises that don't stick with our model of how we should conduct our businesses ethically but improving our bottom line regardless of the quality of product we produce. Ultimately we put out an illusion of quality work while making bulk purchases of closeout moulding, buying look alike wannabes that were copied from somebody's high end offerings, and using the plastic version of what would cost an exorbitant price if made out of quality materials and finishes. I am fully aware of the compromises I have had to make as an employee working under someone else's rules but sometimes I wonder if I had made the rules under the same circumstances, would it be any different in the end??

I really can't answer that question objectively.

Regarding your last comment about the cyborgs, maybe that is more true than you think. I see those who cannot get through a given 24 hour period without their "fix" of 3 or 4 hours in front of the tube where they are conditioned to buy this and to use that and they see artificial lives being lived on the screen that they misconstrue to mean they must pattern their lives in like manner somehow. Maybe it is this sub-species of humanoid that we are evolving into that would appreciate their carbon copy world and their ink jet originals in their plastic look alike frames. Some day it may be the few who do remember guys like Rembrandt that will be the odd ones of society and will be looked down on for being strange.

 

[stud d]

I think what Cornel is describing is simply put as "selling out." This is when you take your pride and individuality and put a price on it. That is my idea of it antyways.

So if that is what you think, lets face it, most of the world has sold out. Everything that is unique and one of a kind will eventually be massed produced if the buying public wants it. That is business. There is a want and then it happens.

The public has been in the need for lower priced goods for a while now. We can all blame Wallyworld and the other huge chains, but why? If we each had the opportunity to be in the drivers seat and new Wally would be huge now...we would be driving full speed ahead and collecting all the paychecks.

In the end there is a gent on here that speaks about business, he always saids don't confuse business with your personal feelings. Cornel has deep personal opinions on this subject. I agree and disagree, but when it comes to money it is hard to walk away or let it walk away from me. I think each person will have thier own ideas on the subject, heck look at the poll above.

I don't think Cornel will ever have a problem selling his lucious frames. They can never be duplicated, heck I could not even imagine how someone could mimic them. There will also be the low end, since it is always there, it would be foolish to ignore it.

Both sides are valid, and each need special attention. Who knows what time shall bring?

PL

 

[IdahoDave]

Been away for a couple days. I started my store in 98 using only poly frames and acrylic glazing. Marley Mouldings (a US company) being my main source. A few years ago they stopped producing picture frame moulding to concentrated on their other plastic lines. I stopped selling them because I couldn't get them. JJ moulding is an alternative, I haven't ordered any because I wanted to get rid of what I have in stock. Pretty much gone now so good solid vendor info would be nice. My experience was a good one. wood chops I mark up 3+ times, poly I would mark up 7+ times. The right glue and assembly was the only real trick. I have been reluctant to add also because my employees are worried about selling 'cheap' frames now because they are used to selling the 'good stuff' now.

 

[NcFramingChick]

I've never had a supplier offer these to my shop nor have I requested or ever thought about using them. I quess the main reason would be is that I don't like repairing the ones that come into my shop from other places. They have always been a headache to deal with and sometimes I even refuse to attempt the repair.

 

[artfolio]

I've never had a supplier offer these to my shop nor have I requested or ever thought about using them. I quess the main reason would be is that I don't like repairing the ones that come into my shop from other places. They have always been a headache to deal with and sometimes I even refuse to attempt the repair.

Actually, if there is one downside to synthetic mouldings this is it.

Once they are damaged, or even if you discover a mark after joining, there is no correcting the error and no way of making a decent repair. With a timber frame you can break the joints, yank out the v-nails, shave the mitres clean, replace the faulty/damaged bit and re-assemble. This is also a neat way of repairing a timber frame with broken mitres.

Try this with a synthetic and when you break the join, the material crumbles all over the place and, half the time, the stick will break somewhere else other than at the join.

Likewise, if a mitre hasn't joined properly you cannot just squirt some glue into it and clamp it up - the adhesive will invairably overflow and ruin the surface.

Despite this I still use them as they have their place in the scheme of things.

 

[Jim Miller]

...Plastic frames offer good margins now but with volume and public awareness their cost, margins and prices will drop dramatically and that will shape the framing business...(I)n my opinion, this will be a different field that the traditional one and those who embrace plastic frames will end up doing a different business than traditional framers do today.

Cornel's opinion -- if I understand correctly -- is that plastic mouldings will remain on the fringes of our industry, in their present low-cost, alternative-product position, without becoming "mainstream" products that replace wood mouldings. By this thinking, I guess plastic mouldings would not be expected to improve much, in terms of profitability, market share, or quality. Do I have it right, Cornel?

The opposite opinion is that plastic mouldings will improve and become "mainstream" framing products over time, as wood mouldings diminish in popularity. As more framers become accustomed to using them, their demand will rise, inspiring the poly makers to improve quaility, availability, and prices. Competition will intensify in that product category as its popularity grows.

The availability of good wood continues to diminish, and the costs of manufacturing continue to escalate. In recent years we have seen a clear trend toward softer woods, less expensive manufacturing techniques (faux finishes, for example), and higher prices. The future outlook indicates that this unfortunate trend for wood mouldings will continue. To put it another way, wood mouldings are getting worse, and plastic mouldings are getting better.

Remember when plastic-covered bumpers on cars were considered cheap imitations of chromed steel? Most cars made today have plastic-covered bumpers.

Remember when natural cedar siding was popular for homebuilding? These days builders are using composite wood products instead, with good results.

Remember when treated lumber was considered the best for fences and decking? In the future, many of us will buy plastic or composite products for fences and decking, instead of wood.

Many products that are popular today were disdained and demeaned during their formative years. But they grew anyway. I think poly mouldings will, too. I believe they will improve and become more desirable, if only because wood mouldings will continue to become less desirable.

 

[McPhoto]

I think Jim's correct in stating that plastic mouldings will become mainstream - just take a look at the "decorator art" that is being offered at your local "Target", "Kohl's", "Macy's", etc. (and yes even Wally-World) A LARGE majority of it comes from China & is PLASTIC. Hey, once it's on the wall in a home, I would challenge anyone from telling if it's plastic or wood moulding.
At present, we can offer better finishes, tones, etc on natural wood - - - but who knows what the future will bring!
"Remember Benjamin - 'Plastics' is the future" - From "The Graduate"

 

[Bob Carter]

I'm not certain that "mainstream" may be correct anymore than when metals were introduced, or when Mica's were introduced or so many other now, widely accepted alternatives

We show about 1500 corner samples (probably 500 too many) and only around 20 are polys. I won't share what is the percentage of overall biz, but in our humble operation, it ain't chump change.

For me, I tire of the debate