Do you match competitors orders

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Bob Carter

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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On the Estimate Thread, a lot of people are quite protective of their estimates. Let me turn this around and ask what you do when a customer brings in an estimate from another store?

We jump on them like a dog on a bone. These people are serious about getting something framed ( to go to the trouble, I hope so) and there was something lacking in the other store that they couldn't close the sale. It might have been price, it might have been the salesperson, who knows? Sometimes the design just wasn't compelling. But what a golden opportunity. And if it's an apples to apples bid, I'll match the price in a heartbeat (even if I have to go up).

What do you do? Will you match a price for comparable material? But there is some reason the other guy couldn't close it, and I'm not going to let them get away.
 
Bob --

I won't match a competitor's price per se. I don't ever want customers to get the idea that my retail prices are negotiable, which they are not. My prices are fair and reasonbable, and worth every penny. Yours are, too, so why give away profit?

However, I will offer alternative design features that are more comparable to what the other stores did. Usually we start the design process as usual, but there's a sheet of paper folded up in the customer's hand or sticking out of her purse. Now and then she'll sneak a peek at it, as if to check the cards in her poker hand.

We almost always lay out wider mats & more of them; a fillet or other added feature; and fancier mouldings than our competitors. Sometimes we have to trim away the goodies to meet a budget, but I'm surpised how often customers say something like "That's a lot higher than the other prices, but let's do it anyway. I really like this".

It's not the price, it's the value.
 
We do not match. There are many framers nearby and we are focused on the high end. I am aware that our prices are higher. My attitude is that I would rather let the person whose business is set up so that he can profit from a $50 job on a 24x36 piece have the job than attain a loyal client who expects a low price point. We have several clients who come to us for the pieces they value more and go do the road with their kids' Heath Ledger posters.
 
Our sign out front says "We will match any competitors coupon" I rarely get one, maybe 4 times a year. I figure,let the other guy pay the big bucks to have a coupon ad run in the paper. Besides, the major coupon company,(and we all know who it is)has prices that are inflated to cover the discount, and the people find that out when they get our price. We then have gained another loyal customer because it makes them mad at the other guy.
 
Bob, I don't get the opportunity very often to even see a competitors ticket. Being a relatively small community we seem to have some pretty good client loyalty, and checking with my "competitors" I find that none of them give the client an itemized ticket. If they want specific information they have to be quick and write it down themselves. But, the last time I got to see the specs from one of the shops in one of the fancier shopping centers I really had to rethink my pricing. I was more than happy to match the price since the cogs on the job was about 20%. I even threw in a little discount to sweeten the pot.(I know you'll say I should have taken the whole thing, but it seemed awfully greedy.)
To answer the question: Maybe. If upon reviewing the specs and using my own pricing to compare I find we are close I'll match it apples to apples, but if I find the estimate is lowballing, I'll suggest that the customer take the other frame shop up on the job. There is always somebody that is willing to frame a 24x36 poster for $29.95. They don't stay in business long, but nature abhors a vacuum.
I will, like Jim, offer other designs and often get the job from that regardless of the price. Value is the key.
 
We are who we are. I believe quality is important. I have watched other shops come and go as they ran scared on pricing. Customers do not always tell the truth. There is no incentive to do that. I know that we use great materials and spend extra time which we feel is worth more. There are other issues that can be argued, check out their service, their attitudes, their insurance and their design skills. It makes sense that a business that pays low has a high turn over and an inconsistent quality. Let the price conscious take their risks there.

Did you know that with the high turnover at M......'s their customers artworks are only insured up to $250. Where do all those customers go with more valuable works? Do you think your customers who want a great design will go there? Do you think customers with oversized works go there? How will they get them home? Do you think that M......'s even wants this other more specialized business?

How about F & S do you think that they are interested in selling Fine Art? Do you think that M......'s or F & S with those names would draw the Fine Art crowd? Do you even think the Fine Art distributors will sell to them?

Where do you want to be? Do you want to be competing with M......'s or F & S? Do you know it takes the same staff at F & S to work with customers DIY that is does to frame it by the staff? It was a martketing gimick. It will pass.

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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
 
A few years back I had a woman tell me her framing job quote I had just given her, was ridicules. The frame shop she always goes to would have done it for half my price. I suggested that she should go there for her framing, she said she couldn't because "they have gone out of business"

Don't you just love it?

And no, I don't match competitors prices, mine are fair, and we stay busy.

John
 
From the negative responses, we might be alone on this one (not that it's new). But may I add a few points.
1. We don't get but maybe 1 or 2 of these a month.

2. Maybe the Phoenix area is unique, but most framers are within dollars of each other on a lot of items.

3. Michael's and the other Big Boxes ain't that much cheaper.

4. With what it costs to attract a new customer, this one cost me only a markdown. And if I'm half as good as most of the grumblers on my service, quality and design, I should WOW this customer off her feet.

5. If I defend my pricing to the hilt, I'll probably alienate this customer forever. And we just aren't good enough to do that.

6. We don't feel our business is the Holy Grail of retailing.

But if your prices are fair, the client will see that and you'll probably get the order anyway. Like I said, we mst be unique in that I don't see the extremes in pricing that keep being constantly used as examples. We think a little salesmanship goes a long way in capturing a new client. I'm not sure the rigidity I see would make me as a consumer get all warm and fuzzy.

In the wise words of a poster on OLEX "use what you can, ignore the rest"
 
Bob said:
"...if your prices are fair...you'll probably get the order...I don't see the extremes in pricing that keep being constantly used as examples."

I think the extremes are not for comparable framing. The price differences we see come mostly from design variations. For example, the other guy's 2" single mat will be priced lower than my 5" double mat; his #5 Nielsen moulding will be priced lower than my 2" wood. If we were talking about comparable designs, our prices would probably be within 10%.

"...We think a little salesmanship goes a long way in capturing a new client..."

You're right -- salesmanship is the key to selling more expensive designs and special features, and helping customers understand the differences. It is the process of building a buyer/seller relationship that works for both parties.

"...I'm not sure the rigidity I see would make me as a consumer get all warm and fuzzy..."

If maintaining our price integrity is rigidity, then I'm guilty as charged. But I don't see it that way. We'll negotiate design features all day, and most customers appreciate the time and expertise we give them in return for their orders.

But for a given frame design, the price is the price.
 
I always enjoy Jim's follow up. We agree on almost everything. We try and show our best regardless of price. I think a great design, like a great car, a great suit anything great should cost more. Most clients see it and most pay for it. No argument.

The extreme I was talking about was exactly what you described. And while no one expects a 5" double mat for the same price as a single, if a customer truly wants a 5 nielsen, then that's what they'll get. Oh sure, we'll show them what we thinks looks great. But I'm going to respect their decision. And I'm not going to confuse the two. Like I said, maybe in Phoenix it's different than Ohio. But I just don't get that type of customer that can't be sold on the difference between your example. I suspect you don't either.

But I absolutely concur when we show them the difference, it makes them re-evaluate their estimate.

Aren't you glad that the only estimates we all get are from non-Grumblers?

As an aside, Jim, any movement on a Mylar-D class at Atlanta? I was really planning on learning even more from you. Maybe I can buy you an adult beverage and you can hit the highlights.
 
Competition is the American way. There are laws prohibiting unfair pricing practices and monopolies. However, there is a point at which there is the unsettled atmosphere of too much competition. If someone is looking for a better price than we can offer they will find it. There is always someone who will give them a price that is a little lower than the next person. Custom picture framing is a mature market. Supplies are easy to get. Your neighbor can open up shop in their basement and give lower prices. As a result, we may be in a period of transition. Beautiful frames are easy to acquire, training is easy to acquire, photographers are framing, artists are framing and on and on. This may be a period of unsettlement in the industry. The market may settle on quality or the market may settled on an indifference to quality or both. Find your niche and give it your best.
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited July 24, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Carter:
.
1. We don't get but maybe 1 or 2 of these a month.

2. Maybe the Phoenix area is unique, but most framers are within dollars of each other on a lot of items.

4. With what it costs to attract a new customer, this one cost me only a markdown. And if I'm half as good as most of the grumblers on my service, quality and design, I should WOW this customer off her feet.

5. If I defend my pricing to the hilt, I'll probably alienate this customer forever. And we just aren't good enough to do that.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some bits I would like to hear more on...

1) How many customers do these 1-2 tell about their experience, if they said something about the transaction to one of your regular customers who then decides to go elsewhere, what is it worth then?
2) The same applies here, the difference originates from our costs being slightly different. Therefore the cost is justified.
4) Why did this customer even set foot in your door, is it perhaps because you have spent money already informing this customer of who you are. You still offer design time the same as you would anyother customer so why the difference?
5) I agree entirely.

I intend no hostility in these remarks, I would like for you to expand on these if possible please Bob.
 
Bob said: "...We agree on almost everything".

Am I getting too @#!$%&* agreeable in my old age? Is the fire in my belly just heartburn?

"...As an aside, Jim, any movement on a Mylar-D class at Atlanta?...Maybe I can buy you an adult beverage and you can hit the highlights..."

I'll see if we can do it during off-hours. Adult beverages are good, but I'm not sure I could "hit the highlights" before I would hit the floor.
 
Lance-I never take any exception to a serious question. In fact, I believe you deserve the same type of answer as your question. If we disagree, no problem. If we learn from each other, so much the better.

As to your questions: 1. We try very hard to create policy to the everyday, not the the what if's. The everyday happens, well, everyday. The percentages are better. What are the chances of someone bringing in an estimate, us matching it (or maybe doing better by our superior design and salesmanship)and that client telling a longterm client and then that longterm client being upset (whew!). So small that I can't fathom. But more realistically, what are my chances that we capture a client and they tell their friends about how well they were treated and how nice the job was done? That's a no-brainer.

2.I never let my costs get in the way of making a profitable sale. I don't care what my competitors costs are. I use my advantages the best I can. Never saying you will sell any product under less than full retail, I think is short sided. We promote often and we promote aggressively. But we do factor our cost into where our advantages can be used most effectively. We have gross profit parameters and we try to maximize our sales by utilizing those parameters effectively. It's just good merchandising. When we all go to Atlanta, will any of us be offended by buying something as a show special? That somehow, a discounted price devalues the product we buy? These prices have to be calculated on an overall goal that, in our case, includes promoting. And here's a flash-I didn't invent the concept. For everyone that booked a room in a hotel with a show special, do you feel the Hotel has done something wrong. If you do, please pay the full rack rate. Any takers?

3. What brings people into our stores? The same things that brings people into Eddie Bauer, Victoria's Secret, all my neighbors. Location, product mix, value, service-it goes on and on. The difference between us and most frame stores is traffic. It's up to us to maximize that advantage. Our design time is already an expense if they walk into my store or not. My designers will be paid whether they make a sale or not. Whether they make a sale or not determines whether they keep they jobs or not. Should there be a difference between what cust A pays as oppossed to Cust B? 99% of the time, no. 1% yes. I'll live with the 99% especially if I can capture that client for more business.

Oh sure, you can say that they will just follow the next lowest price. Maybe, but we've all decided that all of our service and design is so far above the competition(just read the posts, it must be true)that that client just has to be sold for life on us. But, if they walk out the door without buying, you probably lose them for life. I learned that lesson when I had a problem with a car that was handled superbly. I've bought many more cars from the same dealer since. You betcha they have made their money back in spades. But only because they truly were as good as they claimed.

I hope that gives you some insight into our philosophy, but please understand that at the most, were probably only talking 10% difference on these estimates. These claims of the mile wide differences in pricing is something we just don't see. Maybe if my competitors were half of my price, I would rethink my position. But the first thing I would visit is why they can sell something for so much less than I can. If we really are comparing apples to apples, there's just no way that should happen.
 
Artlady-

I'm not meaning to diss you, but you keep harping that we all are competing in (as you put it) a "mature market".

Excuse me if I'm sounding ignorant, but are you trying to say that Picture Framing at the retail level is a Mature Industry?

I always thought a Mature Industry was an industry in which future growth is so limited that firms in it must grow by taking sales from competitors or by diversifying.

That's why stock of publicly-traded companies in mature industries often have high dividend yields and sell at low price-earnings ratios. Because of their limited growth prospects, these stocks are most appropriate for conservative investors seeking high current income. The automotive, petroleum, and tobacco industries are examples of mature industries.

If I am to go along with estimates by respected picture framing industry vets like Jay Goltz and Barc Bluestone (and I do, by the way) then our industry has only penetrated 10-12% of the potential market and less than 30% of the probable market.

Again, I'm not picking a fight, I'm just asking for some clarification.
 
Picture framing has been around for 200 years. Most people are aware that they can have something custom framed. In two hundred years we have only penetrated 10-12%. I guess I would question that number. Lets face it picture framing is not the next cell phone.

I guess the fact the frame companies were trying to increase their markets by concentrating on convincing us that customers needed stacked frames lends some support to my agrument. Where else are they going to grow?

I am open to hearing where the other 88% of the market is going to be developed. As a matter of fact I would be very interested in hearing where everyone thinks the market could be developed further! Lets also throw into the mix the aging population and what effect that will have on the picture framing industry.
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited July 25, 2001).]
 
<1) How many customers do these 1-2 tell about their experience, if they said something about the transaction to one of your regular customers who then decides to go elsewhere, what is it worth then?>

What if they tell another customer how inexpensive you are?

What if they tell another potential customer how they got you down in price?

What if they tell another potential customer how they paid less than their friend who went to you also? What if they told that friend how they paid less than them?

What are the important details of their experience? Certainly it is not totally and always the price?

What are their expectations?

Who are their friends?

Could a walk out tell someone they couldn't afford your beautiful frames? Wouldn't that be a complement?

Does Rolex match watch prices?

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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited July 25, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited July 25, 2001).]
 
I know of a city near mine, where it is hard to find a business that does not follow Bob's philosophy on business. I don't care what your buying, haircuts, glasses, picture framing, medical, dental, machinery, you name it, all you have to do is haggle a little and you will get "your" special price on anything you want to buy.
I have even told a few bargain hunters who come into my store about it, some where delighted to hear about it and thanked me for the information. Others where actually offended that I would suggest they try shopping there.

It just seems that some folks want the services I provide, they just want it cheaper. I have found we lose very few of our sales based on price. There is always a way to frame a picture, and make it look good, within most peoples budget.

A lot of people will not buy anything unless they can get a "deal" on it. From what Bob has posted about his purchasing techniques, I would say he is among those people. I can understand why his business would cater to those same type.

I also try to buy as low as I can, but I refuse to let another shop establish my retail prices.

We will give discounts from our retail prices if they have one of our sale coupons or it's a large commercial account, those discounts are from OUR retail prices, not Aaron Brothers or Michael's or Joe's garage frame shop.

The other city I was talking about is only 17 miles from my store, it's called Tijuana.

John
 
I for one am tired of running scared on pricing. If the next guy can run on what he perceives as lower price than so be it. I have seen them come and go.

However, there might be ways to handle the situation and avoid some of the negatives.

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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
 
JRB-You have to let your tremendous dislike for me go. I have tried to ignore your posts (I wished you would've done the same), but you are so far over the line on this one.

Comparing our stores to a Tiajuana environment is so ludicrous.You have no idea what my stores look like or what type of customers I cater to. It's just a chance for you to level another cheap at me, for what reason I'm not sure( I'm suspecting that our relationship soured when we were in San Diego and you gave us directions and I told you we were staying at the Del. Your unapproving comment dripped with the same sarcasm I've seen many times since).

What makes you think our prices are up for haggling? Because once or twice a month someone brings in an estimate and wants to compare? And I decide I'll match it (if I'm higher) to capture a client? As oppossed to you that openly insults them by suggessting that they go to Mexico?
How do you divine from that my buying habits, my business philosophy, the clients I cater to.

The fact that my business is of the size that enables me to buy effectively(therefore sell effectively)somehow equates to a swap meet type of business. Everyone of my stores are in Super regional malls. I pay over $10,000 a month in rent(per store) in rent; it costs me around $100,000 in leasehold improvements just to open a store. Don't you dare tell me you know who I cater to or indicate anything about my business practices that you know nothing about. We won't even go into a mall that doesn't have at least $350/sqft in sales. Our demographics are very specific-you don't have a clue who we cater to.

We promote because our vendor partners make concessions that allow us to promote. What makes picture framing so sacred that we are exempt from traditional retailing practices. Name another retail industry that doesn't promote. Maybe it's time to realize that your choice is your choice, it doesn't make it better; it doesn't make it worse (for you). I just wish you were next door. Not all the estimates come in from Aaron Bros or Michael's. But I'll guarantee that if I feel I can capture a client for a similar price(once or twice a month) I'm sure I'll do it.

But for a dead on comparison of business philosophy we don't use sale coupons like you, and I have a lot more employees to cover the same 7 days a week that both our stores are open. You have one and I've never understood how you do that-Does that mean you make your one employee work more than 5 days or do 4 days a week you only have one employee in the store, or do you work 7 days a week? I can't figure out how you do it.

See how easy it is to take a cheap shot?
 
I rarely get anyone in with an estimate from somewhere else. When I do, I start the design process from scratch. I think my work is better, and more imaginative than my competitors, so why should I copy their usually mundane designs? If I make their eyes pop, I'll get the job, even if it is higher. If it is only price they are looking for, they won't get here. I will not play "price wars" with anyone. If I lower my price for even one customer, it is being unfair to everyone else who walks in my door and pays whatever I ask.
 
Pam-We agree. We rarely get them also. Generally, the estimate only comes out after we have shown our best. The only time it becomes an issue is when PRICE is the issue.

But Let's suppose they have an estimate from Pam's shop and they love the design, it's perfect. She's done a spectacular job and the selection is breathtaking. It's exactly what the client wants. But for whatever reason, they just felt more comfortable getting a second opinion. They come to me. We agree the design is to die for but we are $20.00 apart. The client says "To save me driving across town, will you meet the price?"

The ball is in your court, but the estimate is from me. What do you do now?
 
I think my response would be

"If I can match that price are your ready to give me the deposit right now?"

If the answer is yes, then

"Let me take a minute and check my numbers." Then get lost for 5 minutes. When you come back tell her that you checked your numbers and either accept her proposal or offer a number higher than hers. She obviously saw something that she liked, you may need the business right now, she may have made up the story or maybe she is tired of looking. Anyway, negotiation is worth the effort. It does not end at her offer of a lower price.

There are even times when you have to say no I can't match it. If she declines persue finding out why she didn't book. Or perhaps, review all the order especially the areas where you feel the other shop may be lacking.

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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited July 25, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited July 25, 2001).]
 
On a side note what do you folks do when a customer comes in and then wants the choices okayed by their decorator?

1. Do you hold the choices aside? Not knowing when the decorator will be in.

2. Do you worry that the decorator has their own framer that will give them a referral fee?

3. If you know that the decorator may deal with other frame shops do you still extend the referral fee after all you did all the work?

4. Do you have a response to this customer that you feel comfortable sharing?

5. Do you just accept it and move on?

6. Do you probe to find out if something is uncomfortable with the design?

I find I am asking myself if the decorator even knew there was some extra business she could have missed? Also, why was the customer out without the decorator?

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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited July 25, 2001).]
 
1. Yes, if I can get the name and number of the decorator from the customer.
2. No, the decorator will have no better access to the actual specs than the customer does. If the customer sends the designer to me, they intend for the designer to use me (I've had it happen).
3. I may, depending on the size of the job, but more than likely not. If the customer and I have done all the design work, why should the decorator get a piece of the action? They get an hourly fee from the customer, and they should consider the visit to my shop as billable time. If we then establish a business relationship in the future, and the decorator brings new client to me they will get the standard considerations.
4. If I don't feel they are just using this as an excuse to avoid making a decision, I will ask for their decorators name and number to set up an appointment...usually flushes out the bluffers.
5. Gotta know when to cut and run. You may have wasted the time, no point in wasting any more brooding about it.
6. Sometimes. That aspect of the deal takes finesse and at times the questions necessary to get to the bottom of things can get uncomfortable. I have even asked people if they liked the piece of art that they were framing.

The customer may have thought that they were capable of doing the job without the decorator being present and got cold feet, or they had an afternoon to kill. Figuring out customer motivation seems to be the key, and I find it one of the hardest parts of doing business.
 
Decorators around here buy from high production, low quality, gift-mart sources.

We used to work with several of them, but they have just gone away. When their clients want good art & framing, they come to us, and they don't usually bring the decotrator.

[This message has been edited by Jim Miller (edited July 25, 2001).]
 
This appears to be a very hot topic, so I think I'd better get my two cents worth in about matching competitors' prices: They know what their work is worth and I know what mine is worth, so why would I match their price? (It wouldn't surprize me if someone already said that, but if they did, I missed it.)
 
Thanks for the responce Bob, you managed to cover the aspects that I was usure about within your policy. The environment that we operate in here simply cannot handle that approach (cameras especially) however I am now able to better understand your veiwpoint.
The way I see it is that every single dollar you give away is the hard earned profit dollar, profit dollars are very hard to replace and it is not a part of our budget.
The main difference Bob is that you have relatively few consumers asking to match prices, we have an average (Oct-Dec 2000 result) of 7.8/day. Thus the different perspective.
Lance
 
Lance-I understand your situation and I'm sure you do what is best for your situation. Nobody knows it better than you.

May I ask in a trade that is so heavily discounted and promoted in the U.S., do you have the same situation there? Every big box store carries digital cameras and advertises heavily.

In New Zealand do you get any Mfger or supplier participation to promote. It's very common here. So we don't necessarily lose a dollar of profit when we promote. But sometimes the cost of promotion yields more volume, and depending on your breakeven a dollar of extra volume can yield the margins worth of extra profit. I'm sure you know that, and I don't mean to preach, but it's a point worth making.

I can't suppose to understand your business, but if you want to share some thoughts privately, I would be glad to hear from you.

And you are right, we get 1 or 2 shoppers a month. Hardly worth the fire storm it has created.

[This message has been edited by Bob Carter (edited July 25, 2001).]
 
Wow,Bob, good stuff comes out of you when your pissed off. That was a great response. I missed the "cheap shot" you where referring to using on me, maybe I'll catch it when I re-read it.

There is nothing negative about shopping or dining in Tijuana. I've had lunch in Reno's down there that cost over $400.00 for five people, that was several years ago. Tijuana has world class business's and restaurants.
Sending customers to Tijuana is not an insult, just some people think it is. Like the middle east, haggling prices is a time honored method of doing business down there.
Many frame shops in San Diego will do the same, if they are hungry enough, heck, I've done it myself, when I was building my business. Your correct, I made an assumption based on past posts from you, I was wrong for doing that and I apologize.

I do now know more about your operation than I did before, so I guess it pays to yank your chain from time to time. Bob, I'm sure you are an excellent business man, I just think your skin is a little thin. I was impressed with your staying at the Del, not sarcastic about it. You know full well why I don't like you as a person, I am not going into that publicly.

As a business man I'm sure you are very competent. As a person, a small touch of narcissism comes to mind, again, based on past posts and e-mails from you. But heck, what do I know?

The one thing I do know for sure is our sparing back and fourth makes for some fun reading.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, lighten up, non of this is worth getting mad about.
you don't have to defend yourself or your business. We all know your a roaring success in business and in your private life. (based on past posts)

For the record, I work seven days a week. I've been doing it for a little over five years. The lady that works with me works five days a week. I've thought about closing one day a week, just haven't been able to pick a slow day. Fortunately for me I really enjoy my lot in life and sooner or later I'll start slowing down, maybe. Why do you care how much I work?

John
 
John-Why don't we take this private? It doesn't help this forum to keep this feud public. And I promise I'll respond
 
So ends "As the Grumble Turns" or "Grumble Hospital" or "All My Grumbles" or "General Grumble" or "As the World Gumbles".

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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
 
John, Bob please don't go private, some great stuff is coming out and so what that you guys differ on some things or is all things, that what makes the whole framing business so unique, a customer can go into different framing shops and get different thoughts on how work can be carried out.
Business can be big or small theres not many other business models out there that allow this sort of flexibility.
If we were all the same this business would have gone like the corner grocery store a dim and distant memory.

Dermot
ON THE EDGE Picture Framing
 
What he said...
The Mutual Admiration Society it's not. Under the spin there is a lot of good stuff. Most of us have learned to overlook the BS. Remove yourselves from this forum and you provide a disservice to it.
Play nice.
 
John, Bob I feel that my last post was a little condescending which I'm sorry for.
What I'm trying to say is that for someone like me who works in great isolation, what I have learned about framing from The Grumble over the last few months is way beyond anything I had ever hoped for.
You guys have changed my mind so much about my ideas on framing I have decided to put my existing business plan in the thrash and start developing a new one with the view to re-launching my business in about 2 to 2 1/2 years.
I will keep the business ticking over but I'm much better concentrating on redeveloping and for family reasons it will suit also.
Guys don't go away I need to hear it all the good, bad and ugly.
Keep up the super work and thanks for taking your very valuable time to share your thoughts and skills.

Dermot
ON THE EDGE Picture Framing (In redevelopment)
 
Guys-Relax, I'm still going to share my opinions (like you thought I wouldn't). I just think the personal attacks have no place in this or any other forum. I also think we ought to raise the bar to cover the topic and not the person. If John wishes to spar with me, let's keep it off the forum. Personal comments, accurate or not, don't advance the discussion.

I guess maybe I just don't understand why it has to become so personal that the messenger becomes the target. Disagree with my ideas-no problem. Attack me-uncalled for.Let's raise the public bar, okay?
 
Bob, The situation you gave me as a "what if" has never happened here, so I will answer as honestly as I can. I wouldn't meet the quote. I service over 2000 people in one store alone who come in and pay what I ask. They come here because they like my ideas, the quality of the work, and they like working with me. If I gave just one person a discount for any reason, that would be treating all the other people who come here unfairly. It could also start a whole other set of problems I would rather not deal with. Suppose I gave Mrs.X $20.00 off her order because she received a quote elsewhere and I was willing to match it. Mrs. X tells her friend, Mrs. Y, who happens to be a very good customer of mine, and has never received anything off any order about the deal. I don't think Mrs.Y would be a customer for very long, or I would end up having to give her a discount just to retain her as a customer. The whole thing could have a domino effect. Personally, I would rather lose Mrs.X's order than thake a chance of offending a good customer like Mrs.Y. or having to give discounts. I don't know who knows whom around here, so I prefer to treat everyone the same.
 
I agree with you, Pam. Completely.
 
As someone who got caught in the discount-go-round I couldn't agree more with the "no discount" philosophy.
I made the mistake of going into business with no background in business. I started in my garage/then basement where the overhead is nil. Having tried and failed at the artist routine I had the philosophy that everything was so expensive so I should discount. Of course that kind of news travels a lot faster than the quality issue.
I am finally learning to bite my tounge much to the joy of my employees. I run no coupons(thank God). When I look at what I've given in discounts for a year and it's more than I took home, it makes me feel ill.
Any ideas on how to gracefully get out of the discount routine?

Jim
 
Hi Jim (Croatcat)
It's like giving up smoking.... Cold Turkey! We just tell our customers that our prices are the same for all our customers. We do not raise our prices to cover the cost of those 50% discounts the other shops give. Imagine if you ever went to one of those shops without your coupon. How much do they charge non-coupon customers???? Our cusomers' eyes open wide when we explain discounting like that. By the way, one of our close competitors who discounted big all the time is no longer in business. We point that out to our customers, too.

Linda Foote
 
Jim

There was an article in one of the UK framing journals about a year ago about a guy who went from this side of the pond version of discounting (low pricing). This guy took a deep breath an increased his prices by approx. 40% and lost only the customers he did not want in the first place, the rest of his customers understood that he needed to make a living and stuck with him. this guy within 3 months had money in the bank and was able to take his first holiday since started to frame, I'm starting to re write my business plan and it will not include an low cost work or discounting bar a little volume discount.
Good luck

Dermot
ON THE EDGE Picture Framing
 
We recently joined FramerSelect.com. I've always been a big fan of Jay Goltz. Anybody that does $8 million in sales really has a lot of right answers. For those that don't remember, PFM nominated 4 Retailers for Picture Framer Retailer of the Year. I was one of the four. Jay deservedly won and I have respected his accomplishments ever since. We speak occassionalyy and we agree on just about everything, being a couple of retailers. He is universally heralded as a real industryleader. Heck, he was profiled in my son's college textbook on Management(My son thought I was pretty special when he asked me if I knew who Jay was, and I replied "Sure, he called me just last week").

Having paid proper homage, in the Framer's Only section Jay had a Diagnostic Checklist to measure your business skills. I'll just list it verbatim:

Discount Control: Giving everyone a discount makes you very busy and less profitable.

Do you know what percentage of your business is given a discount(artist, designer, commercial, volume)?

Do your discounts max at 20%. If a large percentage of your business is discounted, do you compensate with higher markups?

Do you adjust the discount rate accordingly for large quantity orders of the same item compared to one-of-a-kind jobs?

Answering affirmatively was worth 5 points on the scale.
 
I thought I would add this thread to the top of the list, just to make sure everyone got a chance to read Jay's thoughts.

[This message has been edited by Bob Carter (edited July 30, 2001).]
 
What scale, Bob? I assume 0 points = something, 5points = something, etc. What?
 
Jay's questions on the profile assigned points for answering affirmatively on a serious of situations. If you followed the question and the answer was yes, you got the points. No got you nothing. The person with the most points, wins, out of a possible 100 points.
 
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