DIY As a New Retro Thing...

Create a Post
P

Puppyraiser

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Jul 10, 1999
Posts
6,569
Loc
Maryland
Business
Howards retired
We are thinking of adding an area where customers can put together their own framing for a small bench fee. Should this bench fee be by the frame or by the hour? Would they have to buy all supplies from us to use our bench?

So far we have figured out:
1. No blades
2. No hammers
3. ATG will be hand-applied
4. Brown paper for backing
5. Three-ring binder with step-by-step photos and directions
6. Good lighting
7. FrameMaster type tool for insertion
8. Paper wipes for glass cleaning (or maybe paper towels?)
9. D-rings and wire for hanging
10. Size limitation of maybe 24x36



Do we need
1. Instructor for first timers?
2. Someone to hover as necessary?
3.

We are thinking only ready-mades and metal sectionals for same day insertions
Custom from our inhouse ValueLine and wood sectionals would need a day's forethought so that they set up well. Unlike Kirstie's shop, whom we are consulting, we don't want to chop a frame immediately for same-day chop service. (too few employees trained on our antique equipment)
Full custom frame could also be ordered on our regular order schedule.
 
I would think that if someone is putting together their own frame, they would pay less, not more. So rather than charge a bench fee, you would deduct the normal fitting charge.
 
PaulSF said:
I would think that if someone is putting together their own frame, they would pay less, not more. So rather than charge a bench fee, you would deduct the normal fitting charge.
Click to expand...

Ya, that's what it was like here. DIY was a price and non DIY was that price with fitting. However, there were vices and hammers and nails and drills and hand glass cutters and blades on paper trimmers and awls and all kinds of fun. If you're worried about someone cutting themselves with a blade what about the edge of the glass?

DIY used to be DIY, not FIY, fit-it-yourself. FIY seems to be lacking to the point that it's no fun for either side of the equasion....

If you have very many customers at all you're going to have to have employees guiding them.
 
BEWARE!!! That is how I started out in 83. Unless you have the patience of a saint or really thought you wanted to become a kindergarten teacher not a framer I would run from this idea.

You will hold 8 out of ten peoples hands through the entire process!! what if they overspray their glass cleaner onto their one and only photo and try to mop it off real quick and TOTALLY mess up their photo? What then? did you tell them up front it would hurt it to do that? Also you ever notice how other people react to flat glass? Like it will jump off the table and cut them? put 2/3/10 pieces of glass into DIYers frames because they can't pick it up. that won't get old...

Can you say insurance?? I don't know that end but....I can imagine.

Have you ever hired someone you thought you would loose your mind over before you fired them because they stapled their own finger and dripped blood on a needlework? Remember your worst employees..... these are the people that want to DIY their own framing! UMM how did you say to clean that glass again? WOW! I did not think that wad of paper towel fuzz would show up like that.

AND THEY ARE CHEAP!!!!!

But other than that little bit of trouble go for it! enjoy! :bdh::nuts::vomit::cry:



I think you should let them mount their own (hot/cold press top of the line)

Let me know how that goes. I bought several tools from a guy running away from just that awhile back! and I really need a press!
 
DIY or even FYI customers will need to be watched constantly because they will have the shortest term memories you have ever encountered. And do you really want those badly framed (or fitted) frames marching out of your shop???

DIY - FYI - Bad bad medicine - I shudder to think of returning to those (not so thrilling) days of yesteryear!!!

I mean really - when you try to teach a college educated person how to join a metal frame and they are completely clueless, corner after corner - don't do it!!!

Run!!!

Hide!!!
 
Hobby Lobby has a carpet covered assembly bench the customer can use in front of the desgin table to fit the ready mades. It has all the tools and glass and paper in bins below. Customers can't cut the glass, mats or foamcore but it is right there on the retail floor. An employee assists them with assembly. I'd not want them handling glass for sure.
 
PaulSF said:
I would think that if someone is putting together their own frame, they would pay less, not more. So rather than charge a bench fee, you would deduct the normal fitting charge.
Click to expand...


Ellen, you probably figured out that is what we do--no extra charge if frames are purchased at our shop. Otherwise it is $17. extra for help and materials.

Ellen and Roger are really doing their research, folks. They were in town for a wedding on Jan 31, and made an appointment to drop by and see us at the shop! What fun it was to meet them and show them around. I wish we had had more time because I was ready to sit down and learn, learn, learn. I highly recommend Grumble frame shop visits. Our doors are open to anyone on this forum who wants to come and see us!
 
JohnR said:
Hobby Lobby has a carpet covered assembly bench the customer can use in front of the desgin table to fit the ready mades. It has all the tools and glass and paper in bins below. Customers can't cut the glass, mats or foamcore but it is right there on the retail floor. An employee assists them with assembly. I'd not want them handling glass for sure.
Click to expand...

Then I'm glad we don't have Hobby Lobby here! But then our customers get a whole lot of attention, and help, so there would be no comparison. No one has to read a guide or signs. It is all one on one, or one on maybe three, depending on how busy the DIY tables are. Our customers do clean glass. We staple the package in the frame with a fitting gun attached to long air hoses. Occasionally we use Flexipoints, but they are more expensive. Customers have also installed turnbuttons when necessary. No rice paper hinges on the DIY floor either. Usually Framer's Tape or a Lineco tape appropriate to the weight of the art. The customer sands off the backing paper (Kraft) with a sandpaper block. We mount sandpaper to 3X and just dispose of them when they are worn out. No knives, no blades. All valuable art, oversize, fabric, fabric mats, fillets, closed corner, stretching, etc. etc. done custom only.
 
EllenAtHowards said:
We are thinking of adding an area where customers can put together their own framing for a small bench fee. Should this bench fee be by the frame or by the hour? Would they have to buy all supplies from us to use our bench?

So far we have figured out:
1. No blades
2. No hammers
3. ATG will be hand-applied
We use ATG guns, but they do clog and need us to fix them all the time.
4. Brown paper for backing
5. Three-ring binder with step-by-step photos and directions
6. Good lighting
7. FrameMaster type tool for insertion
8. Paper wipes for glass cleaning (or maybe paper towels?)
We use blue gas station type towels for regular glass, and Kimwipes for UV. No Museum glass on DIY. The danger is that the customer can spray thier or someone elses' art. We have to warn against this. Premoistened towels would raise costs though.
9. D-rings and wire for hanging.
Yes, the customer appreciates a good hanger. Often they can't use a drill, so we have to do that part. We also switched to covered wire like we use on custom. Again, customers like the little touches. Our label on the back is their lifetime warranty, so we encourage the customer to put it on. There is also a place on the label that says framed by_____, but they rarely sign it.
10. Size limitation of maybe 24x36
Ours is nothing 30 x 40 or over.



Do we need
1. Instructor for first timers?
2. Someone to hover as necessary?
I think you need at least one who has something else to do when not hovering or keeping a watchful eye out.

One problem with DIY is the extra labor cost. Ironic because it actually costs more for us to do full service DIY,= than efficient custom, but the customers like the savings and speed, and we survive on the volume. We find we have to have at least three people on the floor who know how to do everything. 5 on weekends. Those people float from design, to DIY assembly to stock work, framing for the gallery, and overflow custom. They are very busy all the time.


We are thinking only ready-mades and metal sectionals for same day insertions.

This is an easier way to start. Immediate frame building takes even more staff time and the customer still has to go out for coffee. Many come back another day after they have paid their order in full-no exceptions.

Custom from our inhouse ValueLine and wood sectionals would need a day's forethought so that they set up well. Unlike Kirstie's shop, whom we are consulting, we don't want to chop a frame immediately for same-day chop service. (too few employees trained on our antique equipment)
Full custom frame could also be ordered on our regular order schedule.
Click to expand...

Sounds great Ellen. Call me any time!
 
Framar said:
DIY or even FYI customers will need to be watched constantly because they will have the shortest term memories you have ever encountered. And do you really want those badly framed (or fitted) frames marching out of your shop???

DIY - FYI - Bad bad medicine - I shudder to think of returning to those (not so thrilling) days of yesteryear!!!

I mean really - when you try to teach a college educated person how to join a metal frame and they are completely clueless, corner after corner - don't do it!!!

Run!!!

Hide!!!
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised at the quality of framing that leaves our DIY floor. We won't let it go out unless it is near perfect. The wood corner might not be smooth as glass because we have wet joined it on the spot, sometimes in a hurry, but everything else looks just about the same as a custom job on a simple piece.

Ellen, you will not meet many difficult customers. Far fewer than one sometimes finds at the design table.
Our customers are delightful. I have doctors, lawyers, and people from all professions who love the DIY option. You will get to meet interesting people who think that hanging out in your shop and creating something they have had a hand in is lots of fun! And you will get a chance to get to know your customers in a way you don't when just taking an order. You will build not just customer satisfaction, but loyalty.

Framar, all I can say is ask me or Warren Tucker how we have done over the last 3 decades or so. Its a different business, for sure, but if you learn to do it right, it can bring in a lot of business you would never see otherwise.
 
Thanks for your insights, Kirstie. DIY would not fit my business model, so it's not an issue for me.

But Ellen, let us know what your insurance company says about liability in the event of injury. I can envision a customer slipping in their own spill of window cleaner, breaking an arm, and expecting to retire at your expense.

Kirstie, what are your experiences on liability insurance for DIY?
 
Although we no longer promote it in our advertising, we’ve offered DIY since 1985. Those people who do it are usually pretty craft oriented and pick up the procedures quickly.

For insurance reasons we do all the cutting e.g. mats, moulding, glass. They do the joining (in a standard vise with brads and a hand held drill – never our underpinner), cleaning of the glass, taping of the art (not dry mounting) and fitting. We often encourage people to make their frame and mat selection a few days before they come in to do the assembly so we can have everything ready for them. It greatly speeds the process although most people are fascinated by the Morsø and the mat cutting so that’s not a firm rule.

Admittedly, it often takes a bit longer to talk someone through the process the first time than doing it ourselves, but it appears to be good therapy for most folks – beats kicking their kids at home. The people who enjoy it often return so there is much less time spent on them on their next visit. And, since I like to teach, I enjoy their company – except for one kid trying for a Boy Scout Merit badge who only did it ‘cause his mother made him.

As far as liability … yes, people can get cut on glass, but they can also get paper cuts if they mishandle mat corner samples.

We tell ‘em that the first two band-aids are free; then we start charging for them.

We’ve found that most people who DIY don’t necessarily do it for the cost savings (like Paul suggests, we waive the fitting charge), but do it for the experience and bragging rights.

I say, “Go for it, Ellen”!
 
Ellen,

Just not something that I would have the patience for.

What if you were to initially run it as an occasional promotion. Have a "DIY day". Maybe on a random schedule at first to see how it is received. If it works make it a monthly feature, say the second Saturday each month. As demand grows then you can expand the program to whatever you feel comfortable doing.

Happy New Year

Best ,

Tim
 
Hey Ellen-My first thought was all the issues raised. But knowing you (and re-reading your post) you may have something

May I be so bold as to offer this not so much as a DIY benefit, but a "while you wait" option

My guess (without a bit of data to support it) is that cost benefit is only part of the equation an dprobbly attracts a segment not desired. But, what about those folks that just can't believe it takes as long as it does for framing?

Trust me, we aren't going to do it, but you just might be on to something

I suspect traffic might be an easy qualifier, too
 
I have no qualifications for replying to this thread other than to tell you that I worked the first four years of my framing career in DIY shops.

I liked it. I liked dealing with the DIY customers; they were usually interesting, crafty, handy people and it is true most of them did it themselves to learn how to do it; not for the cost savings (which, by design, wasn't much.) A good amount wanted to do it for the time savings as well. Most ended up as loyal, custom framing customers; the most frequent comment was, "Wow, I didn't realize how much work this was! YOU can do it for me next time."

One of the benefits was that it took a lot of the mystique, and hence the intimidation factor, out of custom framing. It brought in a lot of folks who had never had any framing done before. The DIY part was a neat, friendly lure. THAT was really a HUGE benefit.

BUT, it was a real time suck. AND it was a space hog. The DIY'ers needed A LOT of hand holding, guidance and supervision. And their counter needed to be a dedicated space with all equipment.

But, if anyone could do it, Ellen, you could!

Let us know how it goes.

Edie the nospacenotime goddess
 
Insurance DIY

Interestingly enough, our rates may be the same as the rest of yours. After talking with many carriers, we settled on one who sees our shop as similar to an AB chain but with the option for the customer to assemble with help. We carry 1 million liability insurance, and that includes the DIY customer. We have an extra home-auto-shop umbrella policy for about the same amount. And, we have never had a customer claim--really! We are very careful and customer and art safety is drummed into new employees. Touching lots of wood here. Of course we have had framer workman's comp claims, but that's another matter and a different policy.

It was different in the old days with vices and hammers, nails, glue, and all the rest. but now it's a different ball game and much easier.

Side note--we use LJ glass cleaner--not much side spray to worry about if they are careful. And we place customers as far apart as we can. We also have some Windex type cleaner for regular glass in ready mades, but we sell so much con clear than we mostly use the LJ can.
 
To answer Ellen's initial question - charge by hour or by the bench....

Charge by the hour.

Many consumers with "no life" and "time on their hands" will treat this as a "social" thing, and stretch it out as long as they can.

I never forget one elderly lady at a "DIY" framing studio I knew, who spent two full days assembling her standard single mat + frame together, with very intense supervision & attention required constantly... it was for a fixed price of course, thus no time limit.

If they are paying hourly, then at least they are paying for their social conversations as well.

Cheers,

Jared
 
Wow I didn`t think Anyone did the DIY thing anymore!! Looks liks a P.I.A. from the retailer`s point of view.Sometimes though it breeds a new devotee(me).I learned how all this stuff works wwwaaayyy back there(early 80`s).My father was a semi pro artist and a friend owned the local TGFU here.Being a curious kid,I wanted to go along.It was decided that "if you want to come w/me you hafta learn something",I did! I learned assembly,at the age of 10 or so.The owner actually ended up turning me loose,pretty much,dictating that the other employees leave me alone. The owner retired several years later,and the DIY aspect faded away.I didn`t use any of the stuff I learned for years.It has now come full circle to bite me in the arse!!! Don`t think this`ll happen in today`s lawsuit happy society though. L.R.
 
Ellen, DIY is the new guide dog...go for it!
 
Jared Davis CPF GCF said:
To answer Ellen's initial question - charge by hour or by the bench....

Charge by the hour.

Many consumers with "no life" and "time on their hands" will treat this as a "social" thing, and stretch it out as long as they can.

I never forget one elderly lady at a "DIY" framing studio I knew, who spent two full days assembling her standard single mat + frame together, with very intense supervision & attention required constantly... it was for a fixed price of course, thus no time limit.

If they are paying hourly, then at least they are paying for their social conversations as well.

Cheers,

Jared
Click to expand...

Ellen, most of our customers are just as conscious of their time as we are and do not tend to dawdle at all.
 
LOL! Back in the heyday of the DIY late seventies/early eighties, our local snooze paper did a fluff piece about places for singles to meet - one place listed was a DIY frame shop on a Saturday afternoon, fer cryin' out loud!!!!
 
Here is our rationale: Who was doing DIY in the 70s? Why, the Baby Boomers, of course. Now, as they retire, they may redevelop this interest.

No one is offering this around here.

We have the space, a table and the equipment.

It is different enough that it may get some press play.

Of course, it may be one of those Ellen's Harebrained Scheme things. (there have been many of those...) but all we have to do is lug the table upstairs and put the sign on the store marquee to kick it off.

Lots to do beforehand, though. Manual, release, staff training...
 
Hey Ellen-Those "hair-brained (sic?) ideas" sometimes are the best ideas.

I just to get them all the time; now, it's more "scalp-brained"

What's the downside? It doesn't work?

Just add it to the list of "Things not do again (or until I forgot I did it before)"
 
Ellen...don't forget to check your insurance policy for liability.....we got such high rate increase quotes that we knixed the idea..of course this is Florida, home of the insurance mafia.
 
Create a Post
Back
Top