A customer has order a frame (5' x 2') from us that they are taking elsewhere to have a mirror installed. Checked with the vendor from which I'm getting the moulding and was told that this moulding should be fine for most standard mirrors and he provided some hanging recommendations that I will pass on to the customer. However, we are not the ones installing the mirror, so I do not want to be held liable in any way should a problem occur. Struggling with coming up with the appropriate wording to devoid myself of liability once the frame leaves my shop and the mirror is installed. Suggestions? Thanks!
Disclaimer Wording - Advice Needed
- Thread starter Janis
- Start date
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Since you are only selling a frame you are not in any way responsible for what happens next. Cash and carry the frame is in good condition on the way out, thank you very much.
Bill Henry-
Brussel Sprout Connoisseur
You might want to provide wiring “suggestions” (with a diagram) for wiring and hanging the piece. Throw in a few heavy duty strap hangers and enough #8 wire, and you should be good.
Any kind of disclaimer will sound negative and make it appear that you’re trying to weasel out of the responsibility for the construction of the frame, too.
If they fail to follow your suggestions and something bad happens, you are off the hook.
Any kind of disclaimer will sound negative and make it appear that you’re trying to weasel out of the responsibility for the construction of the frame, too.
If they fail to follow your suggestions and something bad happens, you are off the hook.
I've already said I'd include hanging info based on my vendor's input. But I'm not the one putting in the mirror - he's going to another source for that. I don't want to sound negative to the customer, but I also do not want to be held liable for anything regarding the frame when someone else is going to be working with it. I don't have any way to know and/or guarantee that the other entity will provide hanging that we would deem adequate - don't even know the type, weight, or anything else about the mirror. So if something should happen and the frame is gets damaged/broken, I don't want them coming back expecting me to replace without being compensated. If we did all the work, it would be different...I'd guarantee MY work.
Framar
WOW Framer
Why don't you ask your customer to bring the mirror to you and you will install it to your standards?
Tell them you are less than comfortable with anyone else installing the mirror into your frame and you would be unable to give them any kind of guarantee on anothers work.
Tell them you are less than comfortable with anyone else installing the mirror into your frame and you would be unable to give them any kind of guarantee on anothers work.
Jeff Rodier
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
If you are providing the hanging hardware Z Bar is all that is needed.
I mostly agree with Jeff Rodier that you are just selling the frame so you are not responsible for what the customer does with it, unless you let them choose a moulding that is too flimsy for the weight of the mirror or something else along those lines. Once you give the hardware and recommendations on hanging and installation, then I think you increase your liability a fair bit.
As for the "wording" of a disclaimer, I would list all of your recommendations and warnings and that you are not responsible for replacing items when used outside of your guidelines, then have the customer sign and date it. Also, if they are paying someone to install it for them, I would think liability would lie more heavily with them if there were any issues down the road.
As for the "wording" of a disclaimer, I would list all of your recommendations and warnings and that you are not responsible for replacing items when used outside of your guidelines, then have the customer sign and date it. Also, if they are paying someone to install it for them, I would think liability would lie more heavily with them if there were any issues down the road.
F
Framing:
Guest
Recommendations made by "Name of Business". regarding the properties, qualities, use or application of products sold by "Name of Business". are believed to be reliable, however "Name of Business". makes no representation or warranty whatsoever with respect to any such recommendation, and expressly disclaims any and all liability therefore. The customer or user shall be solely responsible for decisions regarding its uses or applications of products purchased from "Name of Business"
to little information to make suggestion....
What frame? How wide is it? Is it wood or metal?
As far as hanging suggestions go don't do it.
You are not suppling the mirror.
You are not putting it in the frame.
You have no idea how they will install the mirror in the frame or if they will use proper wood backing for this size of mirror.
You have no idea how much the mirror wieghts.
You are not hanging the frame.
You do not know what type of wall it will be hung on...
This is like asking a doctor over the phone for a prescription for a rash. He would not know if it were fungal of viral.
tell them they should ask the guy putting it in the frame for the method he uses.
What frame? How wide is it? Is it wood or metal?
As far as hanging suggestions go don't do it.
You are not suppling the mirror.
You are not putting it in the frame.
You have no idea how they will install the mirror in the frame or if they will use proper wood backing for this size of mirror.
You have no idea how much the mirror wieghts.
You are not hanging the frame.
You do not know what type of wall it will be hung on...
This is like asking a doctor over the phone for a prescription for a rash. He would not know if it were fungal of viral.
tell them they should ask the guy putting it in the frame for the method he uses.
I'm no lawyer, but if I were you I would offer no written advice about hanging. If you do, and if the person installing the hardware does it wrong, and if there is any lawsuit over the consequences, then the judgement might come down to whether your advice was correct, or incorrect, or too vague to be understood correctly, or simply misunderstood by one who was unfamiliar. In any case, you would be involved.
That's a lot of "ifs", but who's to say it could not happen? Your best legal position probably would be to remain completely unaware of how the frame would be used. Your second-best legal position probably would be to make no comments beyond the work for which you are responsible.
FramerCat
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I agree with Jim Miller. You’re just selling them a frame. Don’t give them anything in writing. I wouldn’t be too worried about being held responsible for any damages caused by improper fitting or installation. Any kind of litigation would be farther down the road. If something were to go wrong (which is highly unlikely) the customer will most likely contact you. At that point you should have a conversation with the customer and take a look at the piece with them to determine the reason for the problem. Most people are reasonable and will understand if you can show them that the problem occurred because of the fitting or installation. If this particular customer is unreasonable you will have to decide whether you want to appease them and take a bit of a financial loss or tell them to go away and risk them badmouthing you to their friends and family, and maybe the internet. At this point a signed piece of paper is not going to change the mind of an unreasonable customer. People think what they want to think and “proving” them wrong with a paper you forced them to sign will only make them angrier. I say, let it go. It’s not worth worrying about.
David Hewitt
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Your obligation was to supply a decorative wood, cut to a requested size. THATS IT. Any offers of advise simply complicate the matter.The mirror installer is the next person that should have concern.
Pat Murphey
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Don't forget that, with a heavy mirror you might still retain liability for failed joins, where in a bad installation, the load is born by the top rail. It wouldn't hurt to recommend that the bottom rail be supported by Z-bar or a cleat, when the customer or mirror installer hangs it.
:kaffeetrinker_2:
:kaffeetrinker_2:
This thread reminds me of my situation a few years ago. A woman called to ask if I would install a mirror over her fireplace, and I said yes. We arranged a schedule and I took my ladder and tools. It is a large, beautiful home with cathedral ceilings about 18' - 20' high, and skylights above the fireplace.
It was a 6 ft. x 4 ft., floor-standing, 1/4"plate glass, beveled-edge mirror in a 10"-11" wide frame of four stacked mouldings, made in Brazil. Bragging about buying such an attractively-framed mirror for only $600, she wanted me to hang it vertically above the fireplace mantel, which was six feet tall, so the top of the frame would be about 13 feet off the floor.
There was a large, prominently-placed label on the back of the frame, saying something like, "This mirror is intended to stand on the floor. Secure the top edge to the wall according to instructions below, but do not hang on the wall".
I told the customer that I would not hang the mirror, because of the possibility that the frame could come apart and the mirror could fall, causing severe personal injury or death. She was unconcerned and pleaded with me to do the work, but I refused and showed her how the frame could come apart under gravitational stress. Then she asked if I would reinforce the frame. I said no. Then she said her handyman might be able to do the job and asked if I would advise him how to do it. I refused, expressed my concern over any attempt to hang that mirror, and wished her luck.
My guess is that she kept making calls until she found someone who would agree to hang her mirror. Some consumers are just stupid.
It was a 6 ft. x 4 ft., floor-standing, 1/4"plate glass, beveled-edge mirror in a 10"-11" wide frame of four stacked mouldings, made in Brazil. Bragging about buying such an attractively-framed mirror for only $600, she wanted me to hang it vertically above the fireplace mantel, which was six feet tall, so the top of the frame would be about 13 feet off the floor.
There was a large, prominently-placed label on the back of the frame, saying something like, "This mirror is intended to stand on the floor. Secure the top edge to the wall according to instructions below, but do not hang on the wall".
I told the customer that I would not hang the mirror, because of the possibility that the frame could come apart and the mirror could fall, causing severe personal injury or death. She was unconcerned and pleaded with me to do the work, but I refused and showed her how the frame could come apart under gravitational stress. Then she asked if I would reinforce the frame. I said no. Then she said her handyman might be able to do the job and asked if I would advise him how to do it. I refused, expressed my concern over any attempt to hang that mirror, and wished her luck.
My guess is that she kept making calls until she found someone who would agree to hang her mirror. Some consumers are just stupid.