Designing - step one

B. Newman

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Posts
4,855
Loc
Kodak, Tn. USA
I am not a newbie. I have been in this industry for over 30 years - been designing frame combinations since 1972, but I am now running into a problem.

In the past,beginning when there were <100 mat samples up until there were, oh 400-500 samples, I'd usually look at the piece, then get a mental idea of a "color range" and start pulling colors.

We've discussed before about the pros and cons of grouping the samples for colors, types and manufacturers of boards, but what I used to do was start "scrolling" through the corner samples looking for a specific color and would often times find something that I'd never thought of - and it would look great!

Now, however, with 40 jillion choices, sometimes I just have a block of where to start. Often times I find myself looking in a specifier for a particular color and (like the old days) find something that I wasn't even looking for - which is just perfect!

I was wondering - given the huge amount of choices these days - how do you start?

Oh, I do ask all the "normal" questions - "Where is it going to hang?" "What is the color of the wall?" "Do you have any particular 'feel' or 'color direction' you'd like to go with this?" etc, etc... What is the color of your sofa... just kidding :D

But other than that - how do "you" start pulling colors?

The times, they are a-changing...
 
Hi Betty,
Oh come on, you know they're still gonna tell us what color the sofa is :D .
Even with all the product that has come available to us, I still pretty much see the piece completed in my head.
Although, it is a little hard to store all of those options in my brain, and I have found myself asking the customer for a moment more of his/her time to peruse the new samples for the best possible choice.

I also find myself weeding out alot of the ones that are so alike it doesn't pay to have both.

Lori
 
Betty, I've mentioned this before - maybe 10-12 times - but I've found it's a HUGE help to keep my mat corners sorted according to the Bainbridge color wheel system devised by Kaye Evans. I do that even with my non-Bainbridge samples.

After using it for a short time, and getting used to really looking at colors (after about 22 years of framing) I could look at an item to be framed and see "yellow-green tone" instead of "tan." I'd pull a couple of samples from that section and, if it's a tad too yellow, I'd look at some green tones. If you find one there that looks good, there's a very good chance that a green shade is going to be lovely for a contrasting bottom mat.

It's a job to set it up and it takes some getting used to, but it's made the design process easier and more fun for me.
 
Ron,

You must be a great librarian to set that up and then continue to keep it organized. What is your trick for that!?! Seriously, do you keep it in order from a visual sense, or numbering? I would love your secret.

Betty - I start the same way - although I have limited my samples (on the counter) to Bainbridge and Artique to begin. From there I will then go to other brands if I am in need of a little different color to achieve the affect.

Then there are the times I try and try and try - and certain corner samples seem to "disappear" never to be found again!! Then they pop up when I am least expecting it.

Roz
 
Ron's idea is a great one.

I found that having a good 2-tier mat rack also helps a lot.

Top and nearest rack has all the "regular" mats that I use a lot, starting with pure white, through warmer colors, greens, blues, reds, etc grouped together.

Second part of top rack contains the duplex mats (8 ply, silk wrapped with gold bevel). Bottom rack has the suede and the French mats.

I carry lots of mats (French alone is about 120 samples). But with this system I can find anything almost immediately.
 
I agree with Ron! Kaye Evans system works well. When you have all the colour wheel divisions made with a divider between them, use coloured felt tipped pens to colour the outside edge of the section with some wide diagonal stripes (the same colour as the section - yellow/green, etc.) so that they are easily returned to the same section. If you order them dark to light as well, the diagonal stripes makes it a little easier to get them back in that order.

As a starting point choose a top mat that extends the background colour/tone of the image, then the bottom mat can be similar to the third most dominant colour or an area that you want to draw the eye to. Using this method always gets a result that harmonises. I think this method also comes from Kaye Evans!
 
Thisa is one of the reasons we use only Bainbridge. Love their color system. Use it and then can go down the chromatic scale from light to dark. Also only use archival so I don't know what the "paper makers" do.

Thos not familiar with the Bainbridge coloring system should call your rep and find out. It's a wonderful tool and our customers love it too
 
Who would my rep be? I'm in Kingsport, just an hour and a half away from you. I have no Banbridge mat samples that are 4 inchs and that is all I use. (I do have the suede)

So I use Cresent and Artique.

I called the local supplier and they want to charge me for the samples. If I'm selling their product, I'm not paying for samples. Anybody else had this problem?

And I'm not a new business, I've been around for 5 1/2 years. where is the Banbridge rep?

Jennifer
 
Do you keep your suedes and fabrics separate, or do you mix them in with the rest of the mats? A rep suggested once that we mix them in and customers will be more likely to see them, and want to use them. We tried it and it seemed to work, I also was more likely to put them into the design if I was flipping through them all the time.
 
I used to think I was strange [Hush Dave] but when I'm looking at a piece and talking to the person about the piece . . I think more in "texture", as in which fabric.

The different textures of fabrics bring out different emotional responses. And after all, thats what we are actually doing.... enhancing the emotional response towards a picture or objects.

If it was just color, then it's just another picture in a magazine.

Do you always use a flat frame too?
 
Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
I used to think I was strange [Hush Dave] but when I'm looking at a piece and talking to the person about the piece . . I think more in "texture", as in which fabric.
Not strange at all. Texture is the first thing I think of too, except I always start with the frame. Some texture or colour or both in the image almost always brings a certain frame to mind. If it doesn't, I'm in trouble. Once the frame choice is down to two, I find the mat choices become quite obvious.

Judi
 
I called the local supplier and they want to charge me for the samples. If I'm selling their product, I'm not paying for samples. Anybody else had this problem?
Bypass the distributor, and go directly to Bainbridge or Crescent or whomever. They won’t (shouldn’t) charge you for the samples.

It took me forever to get our local Crescent rep and it was like pulling hens teeth, but I finally got some much needed replacement corner samples at no charge.
 
J Phipps: my local rep is Teresa Warrington. Call Bainbridge's 800 number and ask for her. WOuld suppose she covers upper TN as well as Knoxville.

We've found we meld the fabrics in with the regular colors. I know the "codes" for the fabrics are different; so just blend them in with the other colors Had them separate for awhile then mixed them in.

had many complaints about Crescent one being that they NEVER update the swatchbooks and the Moormans had to have special adjustments in our Wizard program, like they were a mite thicker than regualr matboard. Bainbridge seems to be all the same thickness.

Of course, my Wiz is 8+ years old and maybe the newer models have adjusted for this.

Plus I see my Bainbridge rep on a regular basis. But then again, they also rep Nurre and Neilsen, owned by the sme folks
 
When I made the switch to 4" mat samples, Bainbridge was the only one charging for samples and I was prepared to pay $80 or whatever for the full set.

As it turns out, I got them free as a Framer Select member but they are worth $80. At the time, the selection was equal to Crescent, Tru Vue (then separate) and Artique combined.

(I can't believe I'm discussing free corner samples.)
 
I'm ready to throw the whole lot out and start over too. I've never had a problem choosing mats until now, when the ones I inherited number a bazillion and must be at least that many years old, ratty and duplicated and.....too many! I've already tossed out a lot, and I can barely see the difference! More "excavation". Back to the basics.
I've always mixed in the suedes etc , and Baer, I "see" texture first too. Thanks for the input everyone, my next mission is to find my reps and get new mat samples and not a bazillion either. And update my pricing, and go through the stacks of unopened moulding sample boxes and.......sheesh! But still...FRAMING IS FUN! Huh, Bob S?
 
Baer et al; I guess we all do what we are familiar with. When I had my shop Open I didn't organize the mat samples in color order. Come to think about it I didn't organize much of anything.

However that was physically. In my mind I did exactly that ( to a degree,that my little mind whould allow.LOL)But I remebered the Bainbridge colors in color corodination first then by things tha made them different ,like Suedes as someone else has mentioned.

The reason being ,the work might be calling for a red which would be like 8591,but the differance in texture of a suede or lienen could give even the same hue a totaly different look.

So My mental order was color first texture second and the same was true when coordinateing the frame to the mats which I usually worked from the image up.This even occasionally called for placeing the corresponding Glazing fragment on the mat samples since the defusion could occasinally chage the brightness of the colors and the relationship and order of all the colors to one another could give a single sample a totaly different appearance as could the effect of the glazing ,texture and the frame selection.

But getting back to my original point ,we all do what we are comfortable with .Baer is very familar and comfortable with textile texture and Betty ,like I,it sounds like you have become comfortable with a given selection of colors and the ever changeing selection sometimes causes us to omitt or be partial to those we have used in the past.

Have you ever noticed that certain framers lean heavily towards the use of certain colors and even mouldings and it doesn't have anything to do with inventory availability? I know I have and DID.I could even tell who framed something in a group of like works ( as in a competition) by the color selection of the mats and moulding choice.

I think it is sort of a "Comfort Zone" thing. we use what we are most accquainted with even when there may be something better suited because we are comfortable with the differances we know.

My 2cents worth not being a working framer at the moment, and haveing one of the most DISORGANIZED shops that ever exsisted.

"But then don't change my mess you'd foul up my system."
BUDDY
 
well, gee, if that's all the Bainbridge corners cost aren't they worth it? I Mean how long will it take to realize a profit from a coupla mats?

Still, I'd call my local supplier or Bainbridge and beg for freebies. Never hurts to try
 
I still say, that if I am selling their product, they should provide the samples. Cresent, Artique,and Tru Vue did. So should Bandbridge. I will call 1st thing monday morning.

I hardly ever sell bandbridge. Is there a reason you all prefer it over Cresent?

Jennifer
 
Not to stir the pot on paying for samples, but to give a more broader view....

If there are 12,000 frame shops who are demanding free samples....and they sell for $80 [which is usually less than the actual cost to produce; SOP]

Then the "Cost" is just shy of $1million.

Now the TRUE flip side of that.... Lets just say you come out with 35 new samples and you have to sample everyone.....

and for those that didn't follow my drift into the work/time/labor/how do you get it done continuem...I'll bring it back to the $80 set.

For those of you who are cutting by hand.... how fast can you cut a sheet into the maximum number of mat samples?
For those with a CMC, how fast do you have your cutter set for?
[now you know why the samples come "stamp" cut.]

Then all those samples have to be sorted, wrapped, boxed and sent FREE via FedUP...

Now back to the "little frame shop that can't"....

You work alone.... the person comes in and wants 1,800 images mounted, matted and framed by Friday.

At Garrett, there is a person standing 40 hours a week, just chopping, joining, and marking samples.... THAT is the only thing they do.

So the next time you get "Free" samples, ask yourself... "and how were they paid for?".

And with some lines... you might ask where those 6-10 jobs to make samples, are being done? Which explains why you get the "Whole" set, instead of just the one or two corners that you want...

As for matboard sets: Go to shows and make the salesman call in a "Ship Now" order while you stand there.... :D
 
I hardly ever sell bandbridge. Is there a reason you all prefer it over Cresent?
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  • The largest selection of c/p boards overall</font>
  • Better fabrics (e.g. the denims)</font>
  • The largest selection of solid rag boards</font>
  • ArtCare zeolite technology</font>
  • Kaye Evans' colorwheel system</font>
Clearly not EVERYONE prefers Bainbridge or Crescent would cease to exist. Each of us has to decide, on a case-by-case basis, whether we can make more money and upgrade our sales by buying some samples.

I certainly wouldn't do it just because an ex-framer insurance guy says it's a good idea.
 
quote: I hardly ever sell Bainbridge. Is there a reason you all prefer it over Crescent?

I remember reading here a few weeks ago that many people think Bainbridge cuts cleaner / easier to cut than Crescent.

I personally cannot say for sure, because we use Bainbridge %99.9 of the time.
 
I haven't seen anyone else mention it, I use alot of Crescent's SRM 918, on photographs, posters, and other non-archival quality art. Several photographers come in asking for " that double white mat thing you did for so & so", which is double SRM-918. They are very happy with it.
 
Sarah now you've gone and opened a hole new can of worms.as if it weren't bad enough that their are hundreds of slight color variations ,now there are the same colors with cores that look like something other than what they are.
SRMs are the notorious "White Core" mats.I say Notorious because I and a lot of other framers can't help but feel uneasy about the need for a mat's core to remain white and look like either a rag or Alpha core board unless you are trying to hide the true fact that the core ISN"T what it appears to be.

The best benefit isn't and has never been that it was WHITE but why it remained WHITE and inventing a way to hide the normal yellow tingeing of a regular board just makes people like me very suspicious of the motives if they don't do anything to improve the Quality of the board just change the ability to easily spot it.IMHO

If you want a all white board why not use something LIKE Bainbridge's 8519 or the Photwhite Alpha board ( I forget the number)instaed of an copy.
BUDDY
 
And then there is the Cresent Select boards......

Wow, the colors are grea...........I think I shall stop at that!!! heheheheheh
 
Buddy, I don't really understand your reply.
First bainbridge's 8519 is not as white as SRM 918, the Photowhite, which I think is 6601, I don't know about because I don't have a sample. Bainbridges Pure white is pretty close, but it is 2 1/2 times the cost.
I don't care what Crescent's motive with the ' whitecores' is, but for where I use it, why do I want to spend more money. It is used mainly for 'temporary' matting, usually on photo or poster that costs less than $10. Many of the photographers like it for their studio displays which they change every few months.
Customers like the fact that I can double white mat something with a white core that won't yellow at a reasonable price. There are competitors that raise their noses and sniff when a customer ask them if they can do a 'double white-white'. And I'm glad they are 'too proud' to use 'whitecore' because when that customer wants a precious piece of art framed they will come to me automatically because I saved them money on that temporary piece. I don't even worry about being competitive on the precious piece because the customer has confidence in me.
I apologize if I sound 'bitchy' but it's late on a Saturday and I'm still working. Thursday was the busiest day I've ever had. 19 new framing jobs in one day.
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Sarah I am sorry I relied so heavily on my memory for matches for your white on white SRM matting . I have lost my entire shop and all its resources so 8519 and the name Photo White is all I could remember at the time.

However my point was Betty's complaint ;"Now, however, with 40 jillion choices, sometimes I just have a block of where to start"
seems to only be further exsapertaed by the creation of a line of mats that don't improve any of the core properties and have very little color varinces .However they do hide the commonly held indicator ( yellowing core) to pass them off as being of equal quality to mats that used to stay white( Rag and Alpha Cellulose).

I am sure if you or anyone else looked they could find a white mat with a white core in either Rag or Alpha that would please consumers as well.As to what you charge for the mat ,I would suspect that a non-acid/lingnun free mat should cost less and does. However If I am not mistaken they do cost more than their non-white equals. So why not give a consumer a truly better product and charge just a bit mor than the SRM mats.

I have no fault with your practices and have used the SRM mats also ( after explainning throughly what they really are) I do have serious doubts about what the manufacturer is trying to achieve or wether it is needed especially in light of what Betty is strugling with.

As I said it is a whole nother can of worms. And probaly with the improved archives you can find some references to the SRM mats and what OTHERS think,who are much better resourced and even have better memories.
BUDDY
 
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