Deposit or full payment up-front?
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Neither - they pay in full on collection unless someone else is collecting or they otherwise insist on a deposit or full payment.
Most ask if I want a deposit and I say no.
When you worked for someone else, did they pay in advance or arrears?
This has been done to death BTW and is also in the wrong forum - in fact you could not have picked a more wrong one!!
Oh - and the above is not advice - I am mad - which has also been done to death!!
Most ask if I want a deposit and I say no.
When you worked for someone else, did they pay in advance or arrears?
This has been done to death BTW and is also in the wrong forum - in fact you could not have picked a more wrong one!!
Oh - and the above is not advice - I am mad - which has also been done to death!!
Murf
Grumbler
Just ask?
Would you like to pay the entire amount today and get it over with, or just put half down?
It's really easy to get the entire amount when you are dealing with one customer and customer 2 walks in, you take just a second, hand customer 2 their frame, thank them for their business and they are off. Casually drop into the conversation with customer 1 that they had already paid the entire amount and that's how easy it is to get the whole thing up front.
If the above scenario doesn't happen for you: When they offer to pay, ask how they would like to pay today? Check, cash or credit card? I've had 1/2 payers go ahead and pay the whole thing once they found out they could charge it!!
Would you like to pay the entire amount today and get it over with, or just put half down?
It's really easy to get the entire amount when you are dealing with one customer and customer 2 walks in, you take just a second, hand customer 2 their frame, thank them for their business and they are off. Casually drop into the conversation with customer 1 that they had already paid the entire amount and that's how easy it is to get the whole thing up front.
If the above scenario doesn't happen for you: When they offer to pay, ask how they would like to pay today? Check, cash or credit card? I've had 1/2 payers go ahead and pay the whole thing once they found out they could charge it!!
Verdaccio
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
50% up front.
Some folks choose to pay the entire amount.
Some folks choose to pay the entire amount.
Ken L. 1234
Grumbler
TomDrama
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
One of our framers was studying caligraphy many yrs ago (the 80's) and he made a great sign in script -- 50 % deposit required on all framing -- We framed it in a small, beautiful ornate frame and it hangs on the wall among our frame samples, so no one can miss it.
We always say - we take a deposit of half, and the balance due when picked up - Most people just pay the whole thing. Rarely have a customer question this policy. Since we started this many years ago, it cut down tremendously on the framed artwork here abandoned here.
We always say - we take a deposit of half, and the balance due when picked up - Most people just pay the whole thing. Rarely have a customer question this policy. Since we started this many years ago, it cut down tremendously on the framed artwork here abandoned here.
MIK
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I have several signs that say "deposit or prepayment required on all order placed". If they ask to put the deposit on their credit card, I tell them that I will only do one charge transaction per order because of the fees involved. This gets them to pay in full at the time of the order with no complaints because they want their frequent flyer miles.
Natalya Murphy
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
And the key is to be firm. I had a customer come in a few days ago to get a small photo framed, then said she needed to go home and check if she had a better copy of the photo she could frame instead. I asked the usual pay-the-entire-amount-now-or-just-put-half-down question and she said she'd put a deposit down when she brought the other photo in. "No problem," I said. "Just keep in mind we can't order the material until we have the deposit."
The last frame job I did without a deposit, I'm still waiting for payment. So the new, firm policy is, no deposit = no material ordered = no work started.
The last frame job I did without a deposit, I'm still waiting for payment. So the new, firm policy is, no deposit = no material ordered = no work started.
Jerry Ervin
PFG, Picture Framing God
A very wise man (Paul Casio) taught me a very important lesson a few years ago. And it is so easy it will blow you away.
When you give the customer the total, the next thing you say is, "and how would you like to pay for that?".
Half or more people will pull out their credit card, checkbook or money and pay the total. The others will ask "do I have to pay the full amount upfront?".
Then it is up to you to respond either "Yes" or "We take half down as a deposit".
No kidding, 50 to 60% will just pay up front.
I don't lose quite as much as I used to thanks to Paul C.
Thanks again Paul!
When you give the customer the total, the next thing you say is, "and how would you like to pay for that?".
Half or more people will pull out their credit card, checkbook or money and pay the total. The others will ask "do I have to pay the full amount upfront?".
Then it is up to you to respond either "Yes" or "We take half down as a deposit".
No kidding, 50 to 60% will just pay up front.
I don't lose quite as much as I used to thanks to Paul C.
Thanks again Paul!
Natalya Murphy
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Are you sure that's legal? I know you can't specify minimum charge amounts, so I wonder if you also can't set policy on how many transactions you would accept from your customer.
Plus, how much more does it really cost you to split the payments? Even if you have a per-transaction fee, it's probably in the 20-30 cent range. The total percentage you pay for credit cards at the end of the month is the same regardless of whether they pay in one installment or two. So by my calculations the most this saves you is the minimal per-item fee.
My biggest concern would be the initial one, though. Make sure what you're doing is even legal.
Whynot
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Wonder if any grumbler had ever minded and calculated the annual net profit he's pocketing from the cumulated effect of free loans obtained from clients (down payments) and suppliers (30 days credit, late payments)?
I don't mean the moral aspect of it or getting any technical justifications, but figures, because framers tend to be very concerned with numbers reflecting on their exact prices, COG, scrap values and brut-net-marginal profits, while totally ignoring this aspect that may amount for a considerable percent of their annual profit. Very interesting how all the books, classes and chapters out there have all avoided discussing this obvious source of profit, isn't it?
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Just so later readers/posters are aware, this was first threaded on the commercial forum and my post was moved from there to here.
Jerry Hadam
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Senor Whynot,
If you think that having someone pay up front or deposit is a free loan. You may be in the wrong business.
If you think 30 day terms is a free loan. You may be in the wrong business.
If you think that this is an "obvious source of profit you are definitely in the wrong business.
Not being a total smart a$$ here, partial yes but not completely.
I just think that is a very strange way to look at your business.
surferbill
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I always try to get a 50 % deposit, or get paid in advance. I've found that customers will pick their work up quicker if they don't owe the full amount. Also, it really helps with the cash flow to have money coming in at the time of the order, and not after you have paid all your venders, rent, and utilities.
We did a grumble survey about this some time ago. Here were the results:
DEPOSITS AND TURNAROUND TIME POLL - MAY 2004
Average turnaround time summary:
7 days 21%
10 days 19%
14 days 34%
21 days 6%
Special note: Even though 34%/14 days is the winner, 48% complete the orders in 10 days or less. Stats are so open to interpretation.
Deposits we generally ask for:
NO DEPOSIT: 24%
OTHER/MISC: 2%
25% (1/4): 3%
33% (1/3): 3%
50% (1/2): 63%
66% (2/3): 1%
75% (3/4): 0%
100%/Full: 3%
DEPOSITS AND TURNAROUND TIME POLL - MAY 2004
Average turnaround time summary:
7 days 21%
10 days 19%
14 days 34%
21 days 6%
Special note: Even though 34%/14 days is the winner, 48% complete the orders in 10 days or less. Stats are so open to interpretation.
Deposits we generally ask for:
NO DEPOSIT: 24%
OTHER/MISC: 2%
25% (1/4): 3%
33% (1/3): 3%
50% (1/2): 63%
66% (2/3): 1%
75% (3/4): 0%
100%/Full: 3%
LeighAnn
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
50% up front.
Some folks choose to pay the entire amount.
Same here also!
PaulSF
PFG, Picture Framing God
I prefer to get payment in full in advance, but I'll accept a 50% deposit if the customer asks. The customer has to ask. That being said, I've been kind of lax lately, mainly because my bank account has money in it. So one or two very good customers that have established their bona fides with me can just drop the work off, and I'll do the job "on account." And I actually took a 50% deposit on an $80 order the other day, although the idea of it still makes my eyes pop out and roll across the floor.
Your store policies are your policies. You set them, not your customers. If your cash flow requires that you ask for the entire amount up front, then make that your policy. The customer doesn't know, and the customer usually doesn't care. Most of these transactions go on the charge card anyway, so it isn't like the customer feels the pain anytime soon.
Your store policies are your policies. You set them, not your customers. If your cash flow requires that you ask for the entire amount up front, then make that your policy. The customer doesn't know, and the customer usually doesn't care. Most of these transactions go on the charge card anyway, so it isn't like the customer feels the pain anytime soon.
Dancinbaer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
When I first opened I would very sheepishly ask for 25% down. Then only to new customers. People I knew I didn't ask for anything. Then the busier I got the larger my supply orders became, my turn around time got longer the less money I had on hand.
So I started receiving credit cards and placed a sign right on my design table:
In part, the motovation was one $475 order I still have sitting from last January. I have called and emailed the customer several times. That's material I payed for and no profit realized for several months.
So I started receiving credit cards and placed a sign right on my design table:
"50% down is appreciated on placing your order.
I accept cash, check or credit card"
I accept cash, check or credit card"
In part, the motovation was one $475 order I still have sitting from last January. I have called and emailed the customer several times. That's material I payed for and no profit realized for several months.
Meghan MacMillan
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
My posted policy is that orders under $100 must be paid in full when placed. All other orders require a 50% deposit.
On the same sign I've posted that orders for delivery must be paid in full.
I think having the phrase "paid in full" on the sign twice sends a subliminal message. Since posting it I've had far more people placing orders well over $100 which are not to be delivered pay in full. It's nice.
On the same sign I've posted that orders for delivery must be paid in full.
I think having the phrase "paid in full" on the sign twice sends a subliminal message. Since posting it I've had far more people placing orders well over $100 which are not to be delivered pay in full. It's nice.
natalya...
"how much more does it really cost you to split the payments?"
dint think that actually has much if ANYTHING to do with the issue....which is,as I see it, to get the paying public to pay the bill (you choice) upfront of at pickup but to do it w/o any fuss/muss about splitting payments.
the ones that push one of my(MANY) buttons are the ones that when presented with the all/half proposition say "I'll give you $100 now & the rest when I pick it up"....like I haven't been explicit enough for most of the 'civilized' world???? So far my only reply to this is "our policy is half or total payment upon order. We simply don't have the wherewithall to deal with custom payment schedules. If half/full payments are a problem for you, today, I will keep the framing info on file for 30days and you can pop right back when everything is better for you" . haven't lost a customer yet----they are able to materialize the missing funds at an instances notice. My 1 exception to this rule--I have 1 cust, former NY'er, who buys/sells Yankees memorabilia & always prepays $100 with CASH(usually about 1/2 the bill anyway)from a roll that would choke a horse. those guys(former NY'ers) seem to think this is the only way to do business...I have 3 others that do stuff 3-4 times/yr and they all give me that 'garment district' routine about wheedling the price down etc etc etceven after all their vistits where we go thru the same routine about half/all! One side or the other never learns!:bdh:
"how much more does it really cost you to split the payments?"
dint think that actually has much if ANYTHING to do with the issue....which is,as I see it, to get the paying public to pay the bill (you choice) upfront of at pickup but to do it w/o any fuss/muss about splitting payments.
the ones that push one of my(MANY) buttons are the ones that when presented with the all/half proposition say "I'll give you $100 now & the rest when I pick it up"....like I haven't been explicit enough for most of the 'civilized' world???? So far my only reply to this is "our policy is half or total payment upon order. We simply don't have the wherewithall to deal with custom payment schedules. If half/full payments are a problem for you, today, I will keep the framing info on file for 30days and you can pop right back when everything is better for you" . haven't lost a customer yet----they are able to materialize the missing funds at an instances notice. My 1 exception to this rule--I have 1 cust, former NY'er, who buys/sells Yankees memorabilia & always prepays $100 with CASH(usually about 1/2 the bill anyway)from a roll that would choke a horse. those guys(former NY'ers) seem to think this is the only way to do business...I have 3 others that do stuff 3-4 times/yr and they all give me that 'garment district' routine about wheedling the price down etc etc etceven after all their vistits where we go thru the same routine about half/all! One side or the other never learns!:bdh:
dougj
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
50% deposit at time of order
Rush orders full payment at time of order
Rush orders full payment at time of order
j Paul
PFG, Picture Framing God
That will be $xxx.xx today, how would you like to pay for that? Most pay 100%, if they ask if they have to pay in full we ask for 1/2 down. Sometimes for customers that have an established record we accept less or for very good customers, even allow drop off and payment in full when they pickup.
The BB's around here (M's) require full payment, no exceptions. Customers should be used to it. Guess as an independent we have more flexibility in that area, and for some first time framing customers that may offer them a little reassurance that their project will turn out to their satisfaction.
Case in point, I just had a repeat customer a few minutes ago, who was going to only put 1/2 down. As I was about to swipe her card, she said "just do the whole thing, I've had enough framed here, I know it is going to turn out alright"
The BB's around here (M's) require full payment, no exceptions. Customers should be used to it. Guess as an independent we have more flexibility in that area, and for some first time framing customers that may offer them a little reassurance that their project will turn out to their satisfaction.
Case in point, I just had a repeat customer a few minutes ago, who was going to only put 1/2 down. As I was about to swipe her card, she said "just do the whole thing, I've had enough framed here, I know it is going to turn out alright"
Whynot
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Senor Jerry,
You obviously missed an opportunity to keep silent over an issue that you don't quite understand. What's the point of breaking your posting pattern like that?
I opemed a different thread with this topic, if interested to enlarge your horizons.
No money down... 25 years in business. No payment problems yet. The only problem i came across about 15 years ago were people taking a lot longer than 30 days from the specified "pickup date"to pick up their order. That problem was quickly solved. They sign an agreement at the bottom of their invoice(s). Very, very rarely is someone late in picking up their order. 
MIK
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I believe I am within my merchant agreement which states that the transaction is to be completed with one card. The customer cannot split the transaction between two different cards as I will not remember which card they used for the deposit and if it is the one can for the balance.
Robert Kellum
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
We tried to be "nice" when we first opened and not require deposits.
I still have two diplomas in my file cabinet from last November. After two months of messages they blocked our shop number and my cellphone. I have since used the two frames for displays, one of which now reads: "A 50% deposit is Required BEFORE any work will begin." No problems since.
I still have two diplomas in my file cabinet from last November. After two months of messages they blocked our shop number and my cellphone. I have since used the two frames for displays, one of which now reads: "A 50% deposit is Required BEFORE any work will begin." No problems since.
Framing Goddess
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I have yet to get burned on a "paid in full up front" order.
But I have been burned on "pay on completion" as well as "50% down" orders.
I would like to switch to an "everybody must pay up front" policy. In fact, I think I will.
I'll let you all know how it goes.
Edie the andthatsthat goddess
But I have been burned on "pay on completion" as well as "50% down" orders.
I would like to switch to an "everybody must pay up front" policy. In fact, I think I will.
I'll let you all know how it goes.
Edie the andthatsthat goddess
adkres
True Grumbler
deposit or full payment
One of the biggest killers of a buisness is a Account receivables!
Asking for payment either half or full keeps CASH FLOW flowing.
We have a 10% discount for payment in full @ time of order, or half down no discount.
At any given time there is never more than a couple of hundred dollars owed me, if nobody wants to pick up there artwork, so what,its paid for.
I have money to pay vendors at all times not worrying if Mrs. Smith will be in to pay for her 500.00$ framing order so I can get my glass shipped.
The box stores all ask for payment up front Why shouln`t we.
Skip Sprague
TipTop Frame arts center
Plattsburgh, NY.
One of the biggest killers of a buisness is a Account receivables!
Asking for payment either half or full keeps CASH FLOW flowing.
We have a 10% discount for payment in full @ time of order, or half down no discount.
At any given time there is never more than a couple of hundred dollars owed me, if nobody wants to pick up there artwork, so what,its paid for.
I have money to pay vendors at all times not worrying if Mrs. Smith will be in to pay for her 500.00$ framing order so I can get my glass shipped.
The box stores all ask for payment up front Why shouln`t we.
Skip Sprague
TipTop Frame arts center
Plattsburgh, NY.
surferbill
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
That's a good idea using the offer of a discount to get a full payment. Anyone who doesn't get deposits is putting a serious crimp in their cash flow. IMHO
Paul N
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
If one were to look at the yet-to-be-picked-up framed art, I bet you that over 90% of that stuff lying / waiting around was not paid full in advance!
Dave
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
The only problem I have at times with getting deposits is quite often the work is so entailed or someone else is waiting at the design counter that I often don't give a quote when the work is brought in ...especially if there are multiple pieces. I prefer to call the customer with the quote if they need to know the price because even with POS software I often don't have the project totally planned out in my head.
Things like multiple item shadowboxes and the like need careful consideration to make sure you cover your bases.
Simple run of the mill jobs are easy to quote.
If I don't have a firm price I'm a little uneasy getting deposits. Sometimes I'll just say give me a couple hundred bucks to get the ball going and call them if they need a firm price.
I have two relatively small jobs that have been here for months. Each one I failed to get a deposit on.
Things like multiple item shadowboxes and the like need careful consideration to make sure you cover your bases.
Simple run of the mill jobs are easy to quote.
If I don't have a firm price I'm a little uneasy getting deposits. Sometimes I'll just say give me a couple hundred bucks to get the ball going and call them if they need a firm price.
I have two relatively small jobs that have been here for months. Each one I failed to get a deposit on.
Val
PFG, Picture Framing God
Okay, Paul, you made me look. And you're absolutely right....
100% of the still-to-be-picked-up-after-waaaay-too-long pieces were not paid for up front. Nor a deposit.
I rarely do that. One customer (3 pieces) is the wife of my surgeon's partner, the other is an interior designer ("How much is my discount?") and the other was a "Oh, I forgot my wallet, can I pay when I pick it up?"
100% of the still-to-be-picked-up-after-waaaay-too-long pieces were not paid for up front. Nor a deposit.
I rarely do that. One customer (3 pieces) is the wife of my surgeon's partner, the other is an interior designer ("How much is my discount?") and the other was a "Oh, I forgot my wallet, can I pay when I pick it up?"
PaulSF
PFG, Picture Framing God
I have a piece that's waiting to be picked up for several weeks now, and it fulfills two of the chief criteria for "work-not-being-picked-up" -- money is still owed, and it's big. In fact, customer owes $500 on this piece.
Even if the customer plunks down the full price up front, they are usually doing it with their credit card. They can still pay their credit card provider half, when the bill comes several weeks later. So I have no qualms about asking for payment in full in advance. And I would never offer a discount for payment in full in advance.
Even if the customer plunks down the full price up front, they are usually doing it with their credit card. They can still pay their credit card provider half, when the bill comes several weeks later. So I have no qualms about asking for payment in full in advance. And I would never offer a discount for payment in full in advance.
I see things differently, Dave.
First, I assume every customer wants to know the price right now, and I do my best to give them one ASAP. That's the best way I know to discover their perceptions about value and budget, and to design framing that best serves their purposes. Framing customers are usually concerned about price because, as we all know, "framing is expensive".
Personally, I would hesitate to leave my property with someone who is not prepared to tell me what he's going to do with it or how much it's going to cost. And I would require at least some sort of receipt to prove I left it there. Sure, there are occasional jobs that require more than one conversation, but they are exceptions, not standard practice. I want to avoid any customer feeling that I've put her off in favor of any other activity. When she walks in, It's Show Time.
Second, I want my customers to "own" their frame designs. I can't imagine designing a custom frame without the customer's input and enthusiastic approval step-by-step. In my shop we discuss the options and design the frame on the spot. That goes a long way toward building customer confidence and heading off buyer's remorse later.
From "Welcome to our store" to "Thanks for your order, here's your receipt", a typical frame design in my store takes an average of about 22 minutes. That's time the customer and I share together. Call it bonding, call it schmoozing, call it an investment in happy customers. Call it money in the bank today, not tomorrow or next week, or next month.
Dave
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
The majority of my customers are repeat and many of my regulars have dealt with me for so long that they are comfortable with my pricing and don't need to know what it'll cost.
Many also surprisingly don't want any input into the design process and leave it totally in my hands giving the barest of details about where the picture will reside. I use to be very uncomfortable with designing the package without customer input but have accepted and now actually relish these customers. I've never have had to re-frame anything even though I always tell a customer to let me know if they are ever unhappy with my choices.
I actually spend far more time and effort in the design stage with this type of customer than when they are actively involved in the process because I want the design to be perfect. Often I need to revisit the design several days in a row before I'm satisfied.
I also have customers that seem to know exactly what they want and treat me just as a technician without seeking any artistic input. I just usually go along with them if they aren't receptive to suggestions. Usually their choice isn't what I would consider good design but I don't argue with them.
The best scenario is an actively involved customer and I spend as much time as needed with them. Sometimes a great design happens right away and sometimes it can take an hour or more depending on the piece.
Many also surprisingly don't want any input into the design process and leave it totally in my hands giving the barest of details about where the picture will reside. I use to be very uncomfortable with designing the package without customer input but have accepted and now actually relish these customers. I've never have had to re-frame anything even though I always tell a customer to let me know if they are ever unhappy with my choices.
I actually spend far more time and effort in the design stage with this type of customer than when they are actively involved in the process because I want the design to be perfect. Often I need to revisit the design several days in a row before I'm satisfied.
I also have customers that seem to know exactly what they want and treat me just as a technician without seeking any artistic input. I just usually go along with them if they aren't receptive to suggestions. Usually their choice isn't what I would consider good design but I don't argue with them.
The best scenario is an actively involved customer and I spend as much time as needed with them. Sometimes a great design happens right away and sometimes it can take an hour or more depending on the piece.