Customer Trouble

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threefiveo125go

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
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311
So I had a customer place a high dollar order a week ago which included a fabric wrap. I had wrapped the liner blanket style with no seams in the corners. When he came to pick it up he complained and had me re-wrap it. This time I disassembled the liner and wrapped each leg individually. Accroding to the client, that's how "Italian" framers do it...Anyway when he came to pick up the second time, he said it was an improvement but he still doesn't like it. He wants to be refunded the cost of the wrap...He also said the picture looks "wavy". I told him since it was an original piece I didn't feel comfortable wet mounting it (no drymount here) and opted for t-hinge on foamboard. Apparently he knows the artist and can get another one if damaged (would've liked to know that at time of purchase).

I feel the piece is beautiful and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it after the changes I made. Here are pictures of the corners:

flower-1.jpg


flower2.jpg


flower3.jpg


flower4.jpg



Any advice? I'm sure he won't be bringing anything else here after all is said and done...
 
I don't see anything wrong with it. No "manufacturing" flaws. His problem is with design, not how you executed the design. I don't understand his issue with getting a refund of the cost of the wrap. You only charged him for the wrap once, right? You didn't charge him to do the wrap a second time, did you? Does he want a liner that has no fabric on it?

As for mounting the artwork, drymount it onto Artcare Restore (or have someone do it for you if you don't have a drymount press).
 
Always hard to tell from photos, but:
  1. It looks like the mitre of the liner does not exactly align with the mitre of the frame on at least a couple of corners
  2. Also in one of the photos (flower4.jpg) it looks like the inside corner is not perfectly aligned
  3. Also in the same photo it looks like the fabric is slightly raised at the very edge of the mitre
  4. Also it looks as though you have not kept the grain of the fabric consistent across rails and stiles. It looks like in both instances the grain runs the length of the rail/stile, instead of being consistently horizontal across the art.
If these are realities not just how it appears in photos, I would reject the work if I was performing QA, or if I was the client.

Not meant as criticism - just as feedback, which I think is what you're seeking.
 
The bottom right mitre is a bit off due to warp in the liner from the distributer (larson), not a big deal IMO, but I see your point. As far as consistency of the fabric, I really don't see another way to go about it, our liner samples go vertical/horizontal. The first time I wrapped it the grain was consistent.
 
The grain of the fabric should run the same direction on all four rails.

It looks like you had some trouble with the fabric puckering up on the mitre where it was joined. I don't know what kind of glue you used, but many are heat re-activated. I use my tacking iron over a scrap of the fabric if it releases and causes a little bubble.

I don't know what to tell you about a refund. If the customer is one you want to keep, I'd give it a third try unless you are just sick of the whole thing. If he's just sick of waiting for it and has lost confidence in you then a refund may be the best solution for everybody.

You might want to just do up an 8 x 10 counter sample of a fabric wrap, then you would avoid disappointed expectations along the lines of "I thought it would look like...." We have lots of counter samples and we get that anyway.

"I naturally assumed you would trim off this damaged corner of my original piece." We get that from time to time.

But all things considered, you wrap fabric well enough to be paid for the service. Carry on!
 
When doing a fabric wrapped liner there are (basically) three options - chopped, end-wrapped, continuous wrap. The pricing for the three should be different, with the continuous wrap priced highest. Because of this (and aesthetic considerations) I am always careful to discuss this aspect of liner design with my customers - and charge accordingly -

-Bryan
 
I was always told that the fabric grain should run horizontal to the art and on all sides, that way as the light hits it, the top and bottom don't look like different colored fabric from the sides.

I don't know the technical terms for weft and grain or whatever, but it does change the appearance just enough to bug people that are used to "Italian" frames.

Any Italian framers on the Grumble? Is there some universal European standard or does everyone have their preferred technique just like here? I'm guessing the latter. He should have said "This is how my Italian framer did it," instead of "This is how Italians do it." Then he would be slightly less of a d-bag.
 
The quality of the wrapping itself doesn't bother me...except for the little poof in that one corner. I'd have to fix that. The grain line isn't bad or I'm too blind to see a directional problem.

What bothers me is that it seems the liner is too small for the frame (or the frame is too big for the liner) and it has too much play in one direction or the other. This is why the corners aren't lining up.

You can get away with it in a blanket wrap somewhat (what you would've seen is the liner looking wider on one side than on others), but not when the legs are wrapped individually. Or possibly one side is a hair too long or you've got matching bad mitres.

Visually, I think, this is what's causing the eye to draw so critically to the liner.

As far as the waving, he should have discussed this with you when he brought it in.

If a customer brings me something to frame and I think it can get away without being drymounted, I tell them so. (I don't offer wet mounting.) But I also tell them if they're unhappy with how it looks afterwards that I'll redo it and drymount it at no charge. It makes me scrutinize the piece in the beginning to assess whether or not it really should be dry mounted because I know if I don't, I'll lose money (and time). I also point out to the customer what is likely to go away and what isn't.

It doesn't sound like he wants you to re-do the liner. Give credit for the wrap. Me? I'd rather redo it, make it right and charge for it.

At least redo the mount and call it a lesson learned.
 
It may just be the extreme close up of the photo's because when I look at it here, you can barely see the seams...

I'm gonna go ahead and refund him the cost of the wrap...I'm tired of looking at this thing...


Also...this is my first wrap in 2.5 years...I've only done 4 before now...We started offering them this month...

Thanks for all your input and advice! I'm going to practice practice practice.
 
I'm with Andrew on this. I would reject it as well based on the poorly aligned corners as well as the puckered fabric at the corners and the grain of the fabric.

Eat the cost and do it right or take the art out of the frame and act indignant and storm into the back of the store.

Your first sentence of it being a high ticket item means a high quality product and he didn't get that.

While you are at it, sign up for one of Baers fabric wrapping classes so this won't happen again.
 
threefiveo125go said:
Also...this is my first wrap in 2.5 years...I've only done 4 before now...We started offering them this month...
Click to expand...

I think considering this, you've done really well! (This doesn't look like a 5th one to me..and for that, I think its GREAT).

I remember how scared I used to be to stretch a canvas. Now I look down after I start and realize I've done most of it without even thinking about it.

The more you do, the easier it gets.
 
The liner fabric puckering is not acceptable in my shop. Fabric wrapped mats and liners MUST be absolutely smooth, flat and tight. Nothing trips my eye like bubbling fabric.

If you used enough adhesive, then some diligent work with the tacking iron will do the trick.
If it is a case of not enough adhesive, then you are back to square one.

Some fabrics just happen to be a little resistant to sticking. I have found that if you coat the liner with PVA, let it dry, then give it a second coat, let it tack up, then apply the fabric, use heat if necessary in the corners, you will get consistently good results with even the stubborn ones.

Your grain looks straight enough on this fabric.

I have no problem with your end wrapping- using the grain in a continuous pattern (rather than overall horizontal, let's say) works fine on this piece. I prefer a continuous wrap, but have done the end wrapping now and then and I like the neat, tailored look. But it is trickier in those miters to get a tight look.

The liner miters not matching up with the frame miters is a problem, as well. That is so easy to remedy, there is no reason not to. Use shims if you must to get that liner centered in the frame.

There is no reason to use warped liner, either. If the warp causes any problem visually or structurally, then it needs to be replaced. No excuses.

I think your design is divine for the piece, which is also quite lovely. It has very graceful proportions, subtle textures and is overall a very elegant presentation. This is a piece that deserves sharp-eyed attention to the craftsmanship details.

Address that fabric sticking issue, realign the liner in the frame and then have a chat with your customer about mounting. Framed fine art often shows some looseness in the paper; it is the nature of paper. I would not dry mount this piece.

This is one of those times when your customers educate you. Your customer has some valid complaints (IMHO) and I would ignore the nonsense comments about Italian framers.

You do have a thick skin, yes? I hope so.

Let us know how it all turns out.

Edie the pickyfussypainintheneck goddess
 
I don't know about you, but it seems I always learn best when it is the hard way!

It bites sometimes.

This piece is fixable, furthermore it is worth it. I would not scrap the fabric wrapping, but do what you have to to try it again. It may mean a new liner. It'll feel really good to nail this one. And I don't mean with your minivan.

Everyone goofs up; it's the reeeeaaaally good framers who can fix the goof-ups.

Now, get to work and make us all proud of you, even though we didn't answer your last query!

Edie the learningfrommistakesonadailybasis goddess
 
Just a thought for you....

We sell fabric regularly but choose not to practice at getting good at wrapping..... SO....

We pay FRANK'S FABRICS to do the end wrapping and then assemble the rails once they arrive. They always ask what direction you want the fabric. FRANK'S liner and mat database is in all the POS updates and priced as a chop.
 
What Rick said...................it is very cost effective to have Frank or Raphael wrap them. I figure that is their expertise, hardly worth doing it myself when they do it so well. I tried fabric wrapping liners after Baers class but it wasn't worth the muss and fuss when I figured the cost. If you choose to redo this for your customer , have Frank do it and breathe a sigh of relief you can offer the service and not sweat it out.

I think your piece is very nicely designed too by the way!
 
Many years ago I had a customer bring in a framing job that had been done at another shop. The project was poorly done and he wanted me to replace everything. When he picked it up from the other shop he told them he wanted it re-done properly. They refused to do that because it had successfully passed their final inspection department. He had paid in full in advance and they also refused giving him a refund for the same reason.

I got a nice framing order out of it and I made my new customer happy.

The bottom line is exactly that, your customer has to be happy, no matter how great a framing job you think you may have done. You should either re-do the job or refund his money. The real final inspector is the customer.

John
 
What about having a liner wrapped by Falcon East? I just sold my first silk wrapped liner in a LONG time, and on a scoop no less. So I'm having Falcon East do it, since they know what they're doing better than I. Price is reasonable to.

What I'd recommend doing (if I may) is offer to have it re-done to his liking, have Falcon or someone else do it, and if he does accept it and you have not refunded his wrapped liner charge, then maybe give him a gift certificate to your store for framing of that same amount, to entice him back.

And I agree with the fabric buckling and un-lined up corners not being acceptable. Wrapping liners is tough, but I'd say charge more for them on future jobs, and just have a supplier do it for you.

Best of luck!
 
Even if you refund his money for the liner, the workmanship really isn't up to "standards." The corner puckering must be fixed. Also, an unmounted piece in a liner is a questionable technique as the piece has the edges overlapped and as it expands it has no place to go but to ripple. The ripples will become permanent and the piece will look worse over time. It should either have been mounted or floated.

What kind of adhesive did you use? If it is a PVA it should be reactivatible with heat. The best way to do this (and it should have been done while fabricating as well) is the patented Baer Charlton rice in a nylon hose in a terry sock warmed in a microwave technique. It works well. You just can't get a tacking iron to conform to a scoop liner and it won't make even surface contact - it will also possibly make shiny areas on your fabric.

Once you have made and used the "sock" you will wonder how you ever did without it.

That tip alone was worth the entire day in Baer's Fabric Wrapping Workshop.
 
Hey JRB-

I hope the piece didn't come from my shop.......:)
 
Rob Markoff said:
What kind of adhesive did you use? If it is a PVA it should be reactivatible with heat. The best way to do this (and it should have been done while fabricating as well) is the patented Baer Charlton rice in a nylon hose in a terry sock warmed in a microwave technique.
Click to expand...

Hey hey, Baer never showed us this futuristic technique in his class!!
And Nora was not even within 500 miles radius to distract him......:p

I want my money back!!

Sounds like a great idea though......!
 
Rob Markoff said:
Hey JRB-

I hope the piece didn't come from my shop.......:)
Click to expand...

Nope, not a chance. The shop, surprisingly, continues to remain in business. They moved from the college area years ago where this project was done, and are now located in the beach area. I'll hold off on naming them as I can see little good coming from it at this late date.

Besides, I don't believe I would be having you help me with some of my projects, had it been from your shop.

John
 
Okay!

Sooooo......



I've got a new liner and a new yard of fabric. I'm going to give it a third try here.

The customer asked if I could wrap the stick first then cut it...I'm pretty sure the fabric will fray pretty bad if I do that.

I'm going to wrap each leg like before but glue the fabric down so I won't get puckered corners when I join it.

Any other tips? :o
 
  • Cut liner
    • Make sure not warped as before
  • Cut fabric
    • Grain should be in horizontal direction for both rails (horizontals) and stiles (verticals)
  • Wrap
    • The devil is in the detail
    • Make sure grain is straight on liner
    • Use good quality fabric glue
    • Ensure even coverage of adhesive; enough but not too much that it squeezes thru fabric!
    • Press diligently making sure there is full adhesion of fabric to liner; pay special attention to ends given previous problem
    • Notch ends, add a little extra glue along rabbet (I like to use a Q-Tip), avoid adhesive on lip, push firmly into rabbet, trim as usual
  • Join
    • Use fabric glue to join in underpinner
 
You said that you used a LJ liner? I didn't think they sold raw liner stock. While I agree about the puckering and corner alignment, I would not want to seem my work at a 400% enlargement.
 
I do have some concerns about the fabric wrap, it doesn't look firmly attached in any of the corners. The pressure of the join seems to have dislodged it ,which to me indicated the fabric is not securely mounted.
Sorry, but for that reason I would have complained too.

As for the weave, my co-worker and I go round and round about this and we can each support our opinions. Mas produced liners are covered running parallel to the selveges. When joined the grain creates a chevron effect. I think it looks nice. My co worker likes the continuous fabric look even if it is wrapped and joined, that is the warp and weft staying the same as it passes to the next rail of liner.

There is a fabric wastage issue to consider. Parallel to the selveges is the most thrifty.The continuous wrap is the least thrifty, you have to order more fabric and it leaves you with such random and often less usable remnants. For me that is the main reason for the additional expense of the continuous wrap, so much more yardage is used and wasted.

Heaps of communication is what may have gone missing when you were at the design counter with this client. Often people do not know they even have an opinion until they are looking at something they do not like. Ugh. I think my customers often leave my shop with a decision making headache, but they have certainly been involved with how the piece looks at the end of order taking. It keeps the peace. So sorry you had to find the learning curve on such a costly project. I think it looks nice design wise.
 
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