Problem Crunching V-nails

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redwolfbuddy

redwolfbuddy

True Grumbler
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
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75
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Talladega, AL
My v-nailer (can't find a maker/brand on it) was bought used with a bunch of other equipment, and it wasn't working because of a jammed v-nail. There was a small segment of stacked v-nails in the machine, but no package to be found to tell me exactly which brand/type of v-nails they were.

One thing I noted, is that on the side of the joiner, was a sticker that said to put the stacked nails in with the red stripe down...though there was no red stripe on the nails that I had, I studied the nails and found the "beveled" edge (on the opposide side from the "glue" that binds the stack together). I pulled the machine apart to clear the jam and clean the parts, then reassembled it. Put the nails in beveled edge up, and all worked great. The nails went into the joints smoothly and firmly, set just beyond flush, and felt "right." Gave me great results. But I quickly ran out of the nails that I got with the machine. So...

I ordered the following from UMS:
https://www.unitedmfrs.com/cart/detail.cfm?item=4362

They looked pretty much like the nails I had, except one thing... The nails I had were totally uniform top to bottom - whereas the Mitre-Mite nails have "Power Twist Design" which looks like it's slightly angled larger on the "wings" towards the bottom of the nail (the last part to enter the wood).

They have a red stripe (inserted down as the sticker says) and go into my machine easily. They work just fine when no moulding is in the machine. If I push the pedal, they pop up, one at a time, and all looks fine.

But when I use them on an actual mouling joint, it doesn't "feel right" ... I have to really press the pedal a lot harder than before. and sometimes they bend & crunch their way in, more often than not they don't insert all the way, leaving a little bit sticking out of the wood.

Did I get the wrong v-nails? Is there a "non-power twist" version I should be using? A different brand? Any suggestions?

As always, this community's help is profoundly appreciated!
 
Just to clarify, you tested this on a soft wood and not an MDF or hardwood?

If you post a picture of your machine, I bet some wise folks will recognize it.
 
I've tried it on a variety of woods. On the softer woods, the end results were better, but still took more pressure on the pedal than before and still just didn't "feel" right. But I want to point out - the v-nails I ordered were for med-hard woods.

Honest honest honest, the nails that were in the machine I used before, I used on a variety of woods (I was making corner samples for a bunch of moulding stock I had no samples of). These old-but-gone nails worked well in every instance.

Maybe I'll take a pic tomorrow and post it, if that'll help figure out what gives...
 
What color is the v-nailer and what shape is the top. Is it red/orange (Cassese), blue ITW/Amp, green (Pisrorius). I'm guessing its not blue (ITW/AMP) because those have the strip on top. I'm also guessing its not red/orange (Cassese) because those use plastic cartridges.

Some machines don't like to feed the power twist and personally I have never been fond of them. They tend to jam more often and they tear at the top in very hard woods. Once the top of the v-nail is split it is simple to tear apart the remaining surface. I would go for the basic straight side v-nail and just be sure your miter is tight before inserting.
 
It's Gray. =) And the "top" surface is about a 9" chrome plated square table with an adjustable corner brace, and an arm which hangs over that with an adjustable thingy that presses down to hold down the joint while the nail is being driven. I'll try to get a pic of it tomorrow.

Can you point me to straight side V-nails anywhere online? I guess I couldn't locate them on United's site...the ones I saw there that looked straight-sided were "loose" not stacked.

Would appreciate a tip in product name/link or some way to locate/order the specific item...
 
Jeff Rodier said:
and just be sure your miter is tight before inserting.
Click to expand...

I clamp & glue the joint, & let thoroughly dry before v-nailing. I hold my breath and hope the nailer doesn't pop the glued joint apart, but so far I haven't had a problem with that (but I worry about it with the current v-nails I'm having problems with).

Isn't that the correct procedure?

I've tried inserting the v-nail while glue is wet, and the process tends to munge the tight mitre...then I can't get the mitre tight again after the v-nail insertion - so I quickly figured that wasn't right...

BTW, when I learned framing 20 years ago, the place I worked didn't use a v-nailer - everything was joined with clamps, glue, nails & nail hole filler.
 
redwolfbuddy said:
I clamp & glue the joint, & let thoroughly dry before v-nailing. I hold my breath and hope the nailer doesn't pop the glued joint apart, but so far I haven't had a problem with that (but I worry about it with the current v-nails I'm having problems with).

Isn't that the correct procedure?
Click to expand...

Some of the manual v-nailers are good enough to join wet but that is case by case. Use Corner Weld Glue by Framerica to be sure the glue doesn't pop. It has a plasticizer in it to give it some elasticity. Much stronger bond than traditional glue as well.

Once you know the make of the machine you can get them anywhere but I like the v-nails from Design Guild Moulding in California. They don't rust and are very reasonably priced.
 
Is there *any* identifying information on the machine at all? Manufacturer's name? Model number? Perhaps a model number/serial number plate attached somewhere in an out-of-the-way location? Knowing this will go a long way to helping you.

It is VERY important to get v-nails that are compatible with the machine you're using; other manufacturer's vnails might *look* similar but have very subtle differences. This is why it's vitally important to know the make and model of the machine you have, so you know you're buying compatible supplies.

The crunching you describe sounds very much like what happened to my assistant when she loaded a clip of vnails upside down. On my ITW/AMP machine, the nails are loaded with the stripe/glue side UP, not down. Same with my old Inmes.
 
I use an ITW-AMP VN2+1. I used to use the "name brand" vnails which were "twisty" as you described, but found that as the machine aged they would begin jamming often. I felt that some of the vnail stacks were not manufactured to sit exactly right in the machine. I started buying the generic vnails (ITW type) from VNail.com, and have had zero jamming problems with them.
:cool: Rick
 
Rick Granick said:
I use an ITW-AMP VN2+1. I used to use the "name brand" vnails which were "twisty" as you described, but found that as the machine aged they would begin jamming often. I felt that some of the vnail stacks were not manufactured to sit exactly right in the machine. I started buying the generic vnails (ITW type) from VNail.com, and have had zero jamming problems with them.
:cool: Rick
Click to expand...

Same thing with the generic from Design Guild, not one jam in 18 months and I build a lot of frames. I also don't like the rust on the name brand.
 
Yep, it would have to be the nails. Either for the wrong machine, the wrong type or a bad set.

In case of the later, you can send them back.

Whatever you do, don't continue using them. You'll wind up ruining your driver.
 
Here's the pix of it!

OK... here's two pix of it. Hope this helps identify it and more importantly, help solve the prob - though some of the subsequent posts sound like they've had the same prob and are pointing me to sources of different v-nails for a fix. Even so, all input and information is still welcomed!!!
 

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Regardless of whether it's a nail-related problem, I would change that pad on the verticle clamp. Nails are driven more effectively when the clamp is directly over the nail driver.
If you can find parts for it, (realize it's difficult) try to get a clamp shaped like the 90deg vee of a corner to concentrate the driving force. That round one will touch the highest part of any frame which may not be where the driver is positioned.
 
OMG! It's a 179-45HDR with an MFS refit!

Not really. Looks like a very old Pistorius. Get the generic nails and call it good. Martha Stewart isn't coming to visit anyway. What works, works.

So do what works until it breaks or you need glasses. :D
 
Sometimes with old equipment it's like trying to get laid on a Friday night in a singles bar. Although the box of nails isn't as cheap as a drink for a pot . . . wait a minute.. my last drinks in Vegas were hitting $14.50 before the tip.....

OK, so a box of nails is kind of like a drink for a potential hook up. Sometimes you get your face slapped, sometimes . . mmmm . . . not so great, and sometimes you find that the one you least expected is a great fit.

But one of the rules of "Generic" V-nails IMHO, they have to fit a whole lot of machines from new to about to turn to dust..... and still work.

In fact, we are "trying out" some plain white wrapper nails..... and I'm favoring them over the "Official" Cassese.... and they are 20% less. Go figure. :rolleyes:

I guess I could have used the old Babe Ruth analogy (as we are sliding into that season). Babe's batting average was abysmal.... something like .187 or worse. [that means he connected only 18.7% of the time. The rest he struck out. So why was he paid so much??? Because when he "hooked up", it was Katy bar the door cuz daddy is coming home. [BTW... when asked why he always was trying for home runs: "because I can't run that fast".
 
Still working on this - but a little more info

Hey all,

So, I'm still on the quest to find nails for my mystery v-nailer (apparently unearthed in an archeological dig - cuz it's so old no one can identify it!)

My question for you all is this: Does anyone know which type/brand of v-nails has the adhesive/stripe on the side opposite from the sharp/beveled side?

If you remember, I had previously tried ITW/Amp Miter-mite w/ Power-twist, and they seemed to work when no moulding was in the machine, but seemed hard to insert into a frame - took a lot more pressure on the foot pedal, and usually crushed the frame.

The machine has a sticker taped on the side which says to load nails w/ red stripe down. This machine pushes the nails upward from below into the bottom of the frame. I closely examined the miter-mites and discovered the adhesive/red-stripe is on the same side as the bevel/sharp edge. Which means that the nails were going into the wood dull-side first. That would explain why the machine would operate ok with no moulding in place, but with moulding seemed difficult to insert the v-nail.

I have tried loading the v-nails adhesive/red stripe up (therefore putting the bevel/sharp edge the right direction) but then they jam the machine horribly (about to take it apart now to clear all the little torn bits of metal out - ACK!).

I've also been sent samples from V-nail.com and they didn't work. They were A-type (Generic ITW/Amp) and P-type (Pistorius). They didn't have any other kind except those in cartridges - and she (Susan) said they didn't have any nails where the adhesive was on the opposite side from the bevel/sharp edge.

I'm awaiting a sample from FramingSupplies.com that are for an Inmes machine. She (Latoya) said that she thought they had the adhesive on the side opposite the bevel/sharp edge. But then she said when she looked at it, she couldn't tell which side was which - so it's a shot in the dark based on the fact that I've tried P-type and A-type already (I'm guessing anyhow that's why she's sending me those since she really didn't sound sure.

Maybe I haven't figured out what I think I've figured out??? Any further input from y'all is appreciated! Thanks!
 
You might try some of the businesses selling used equipment. E-mail a picture of you machine and somebody will know what you have.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
You might try some of the businesses selling used equipment. E-mail a picture of you machine and somebody will know what you have.
Click to expand...

Paul cascio sells used equipment, or did. He might have a good idea what you got on your hands. (And what the v-nailer might be too!)
 
Getting the photos to a couple of used equipment shops will get you your answer very quickly.
 
It looks like a Euro to me - just like my old one except for the foot opperation,
I thew mine out when it was too much to get a new pedal valve thing
I used MasTers UNI 10 and 7 mm they have a red side. I think the key is "glued wedges"
I have 12000 if you want them
 
Hate to sound like I total dummy, but I guess it's too late for that!

I've seen the knob underneath, but it doesn't seem to do anything. If I turn it counter-clockwise, it unscrews and comes off. It doesn't seem to do anything else, no movement forward, back, up, down, side-to-side, nothing but screw on/off. What am I missing in the operation of this knob?
 
When I use different height v-nails in my v-nailer I have to change the head that holds the nails in place. Otherwse the nails jam up inside the channel.

Maybe when changing nails you need to snug the head up against the nails to get them to line up properly.
 
I think it's settled - it's a Euro. Model # is debatable...8002 seems most likely, I also saw one listed on the web that looked identical but was called model 8006, and then another 9-thousand something. What made it hard to identify I guess is that they are usually pictured with the stand, where as mine is w/out the stand (but it's got easy to use braces for mounting so who cares?).

I think I can get the right nails from a company I've done business w/... TechMark.

So, now I just have to figure out the knob on the bottom...LOL
 
we use a pistorius vn2 and allways have gotten nails from pistorius and for years the nails went in the machine glue side down, and then they changed them we started breaking nails, bad corners lots of problems than noticed the nails were diffrent the glue needed to be up. recently started useing nails from cassese and they work the best yet. It seems that every one has an idea on how to make the nails so just make sure that you look for the beveled edge and make sure that side is up
 
Solved the knob problem...the know raises & lowers the bottom of the nail channel by a couple of milimeters to allow for difference between 7 & 10 mm nails.

Ordered a sample of nails for the Euro 8002 from TechMark this morning (Those folks are sooo nice - if you haven't ever dealt with them, they also did a great job sharpening the blades for my chopper!).

So now I'm awaiting that sample...if they don't work, then something is wrong with the machine - I'm sure we've correctly identified the machine after checking it against some images I found on the internet.

Thanks to all who helped!
 
We have a European v-nailer which operates just as yours seems to. The knob to raise and lower the nails is vital.

The type of nails is as well, and the ones we found came from AMS bend up like a smile. Insert them with the "u" side looking at you.

Too late to help? :)
 
What's the correct adjustment for the knob? I'm guessing it's to raise the nails to just less than "binding" against the top of the feed. E. Run it all the way up till it binds and the nails can't move freely - then back it off just a hair.

Is that what you've found?

Also have a question about the round doo-hickey that comes down from above to push against the top of the moulding... is there a "pad" attached to the white plastic? When I got my machine, there was a brittle felt pad falling off of it, so I replaced it with a thickish felt pad made for the bottom of a heavy piece of furniture. Is there something better I can use to keep from crushing the detail in softer mouldings? (Or maybe I was using hard-wood nails instead of softwood? UGH!)

I'm hoping that the nails I get from TechMark do it - but I'm looking at the AMS site, and trying to determine which nails you were talking about: http://www.artmaterialsservice.com/Catalogue/9woodFrAssemble-1vNails.html

So many questions...
 
The hold down (round white doohickey) has a pad that goes on it to protect the frame. The original was felt but you might also try neoprene. Look up the word gasket in your local yellow pages. Gasket companies use neoprene in different thicknesses. I would try something in the 1/2" thick range.

You may also be able to find someone selling the felt replacement pads out there as well.
 
OK - just to tie things up neatly for anyone having similar issues...

Identified the machine, (Euro 8002), got V-nails from TechMark that work nicely - after disassembling machine to an almost scary component-level to remove bits of torn-up v-nails (wrong kind) jammed in the feeding/shoot mechanism.

Solved the hold-down crushing the detail problem. I replaced the felt pad with... (are you ready for this?) Rubber from the sole of a $3 pair of flip-flops. It's just firm enough to hold the moulding while the nail goes in, and soft enough that it doesn't hurt the composite details in the moulding. And it only took the heel portion of one flip-flop (held in place with 2" wide transfer-tape). I'll be able to get about a half-dozen more pads out of the pair of flip-flops if need be.

So, now my neolithic v-nailer is just purring right along. THANKS so much to all that helped!
 
I'm a bit slow this week....:faintthud: I just realised that I have exactly the same model pinner that I bought new in 1985.

The pressure pad is a bit vicious. Good tip about making a rubber pad. I use a cork one.

Last few years I have used 'Universal' v-nails made by Casesse.

I never move the bottom plate when changing from 10-7mm nails. Too lazy I suppose........

I do get jams now and then. Mainly when getting to the end of a stick of nails. I think the spring in the feed chute is getting a bit tired. Another cause is glue and general gunk accumulating in the little grooves that the first nail engages with. Good idea to remove the plate at the end of the feed chute regularly and clean out the grooves with a knife blade.

Apart from that, and a few other niggly design points it has been an excellent machine and has done a lot of work.:D Only thing I have replaced is the main spring at the back.
 
redwolfbuddy said:
Solved the hold-down crushing the detail problem. I replaced the felt pad with... (are you ready for this?) Rubber from the sole of a $3 pair of flip-flops. It's just firm enough to hold the moulding while the nail goes in, and soft enough that it doesn't hurt the composite details in the moulding. And it only took the heel portion of one flip-flop (held in place with 2" wide transfer-tape). I'll be able to get about a half-dozen more pads out of the pair of flip-flops if need be.
Click to expand...

Now you're thinking like a framer. I was going to suggest a couple layers of a computer mouse pad if you had no luck looking for gasket material. Flip flops should be very durable.
 
I have an array of clamp pads that I've made from various materials. I also use chunks of rubber or resilient foam as space filler/padding blocks with unusual profiles. Works like a dream. All you are trying to do is spread out the force rather than having it concentrate on one high point. No law that says your padding has to be attached to the hold-down clamp.
:cool: Rick
 
A good trick for pinning reverse mouldings where you can't get pressure on the back with out fouling the front part, is to get two short offcuts of the same moulding and mitre/join them with the sight-edge facing out. (think about it). It you then put this chrevron face down on the frame corner it evens out the pressure and leaves a nice flat area on top. This sometimes makes it so you can't get the pad high enough to adjust the pressure properly, but another neat trick in this situation is to unscrew the pad completely and screw it back in pad upwards. Gives you another 1/2" adjustment.
 
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