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Bob Carter

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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In Aug 07 PFM Vivian's article on "Selling Crss-stich" starts with "Cross-stich continues to be an extremely popular form of needlework and frequent frame job."

This is another example of how badly we must be marketing our biz. I continue to hear how people sell "tons" of Museum Glass, and "tons" of Shadow Boxes. And now Cross stitich

We just don't seem to sell but a couple of jobs a month

And, I think if time vs dollars were analyzed., I'm not sure that it concerns me

But, what about the rest of you? Do you sell more them frequently

And, no, I'm not picking on Vivian
 
Bob,

I have two in right now. They seem to come in spurts. I might do ten in a month, then not do any for a couple months. I'd guess I average 2-3 a month.

It's been at about the pace for the 5 years I've been open.

There is a shop in the next town that "specializes" in needle work. She sells the thread, kits, and "whatever it is they use" as well as custom framing.

She gets at least one cross stitch a day!

Of course, the two businesses co-located in her one shop are "Creative Picture Framing" and "Creative Stitching"

I should note that my 2 -3 are a bigger percentage than Bob's because my TOTAL volume is much less.
 
This is something I am interested in as well. With opening the new shop, I want to emphasize my experience in framing textiles and cross stitch. Since I also do cross stitch, looking for small shops for my linen and thread is actually difficult. The BB's have taken over the craft. My thoughts were that since the sewers are buying their materials there, they probably take the finished work back for framing.

I am bringing in finished work of my own to frame and hang in my shop; but in the craft world I know that quilting is waning, knitting is still the rave and cross stitch was on the back burner. Is cs becoming popular again?

Sorry, I can't read the article, just signed up for subscription yesterday.

In terms of how often I've framed a cross stitch? one every quarter.

-Sarah
 
I average about one a month and have one I'm doing now. Sometimes I'll go 3-4 months with none and then have a small flurry.

I know that some kits are sold with frames already in the kit which might account for some loss of sales. Plus I wonder how many start and never finish a piece.
 
I seem to be doing less and less of these every year.

In the late 90's we would get 5 -10 a week. Now, maybe 2 or 3 a month.

My gut tells me that not as many people are doing them as there used to be.

A couple of years ago there was two stores in town that sold the kits and supplies. They are both gone now.
 
Needlepoint

We average 5 to 6 needlepoints/month. Very few cross stitch jobs though, maybe 6/year.

I suspect that as with art trends, crafts popularity is somewhat regional.
 
I believe it is still a popular hobby. There is a "Yarn Shop" about a mile down the road from my store, a small shop that sells all kinds of needle art kits and materials. They teach "classes", too -- but my guess is that they amount to little more than a venue in which to sit, stitch, and chat with other stitchers.

Once in a while a customer brings in a cross stitch made from materials they bought there. The last few have been stitchery-taped to a piece of corrugated cardboard (complete with printed logo from the shipping carton.) They were told their needle art should be framed without glass.

I called the shop owner to suggest a meeting, so I could show her some samples and published information about less-invasive mounting methods and protective framing for cross stitch. She was indignant about that, saying that she works with a local lady who specializes in mounting needle art, and she herself has been doing it for many years. I think she was insulted at my suggestion that cardboard might not be the best mounting substrate, or maybe she just didn't care.

Anyway, Bob, I agree with your observation, that framing needle art is a small part of our business -- smaller than it used to be. My theory is that consumer-hobbyist stitchers are buying kits now, instead of materials and plans separately.

And they seem to be buying them from two kinds of stores:

1. Specialty stores (like my neighbor) where they are told that it's OK to glue and tape them and put them in ready made frames without glass.

2. Craft stores, where they can also get them professionally framed at 50% off.

We still get to frame a number of those 50 to 100 year old samplers and other needleworks, damaged by poor original framing or careless storage. Heirs find them in attics, barns, and basements after Aunt Addie or Grandma Gilda passes on, and the siblings are dividing up the old homestead. Of course, if there's anything left after a century or so of abuse, it becomes a precious treasure for the maker's descendants.
 
I think I've framed 8 or 9 in the past month, 3 waiting to be framed and nine more coming in, when the frames get here. It's a "smallish" town and word gets around fast in the cross-stitch community (yes, there is one) when a frame shop/BB -uh, let's just say- doesn't do them justice . Many of them are "power-stitchers".....entering competitions, etc. So far, it seems I'm still on the "trusted" list. Word gets around that way too.

Having been a former x-stitcher helps, it gives the customer comfort knowing that I understand how much work went into their pieces, and that I've been framing mine and family members' pieces since I was a teenager.

My yellow pages ad is also listed under "Stitchery" as well as Picture Framing. That helps, too.

BTW, my x-stitch customers are split about equally, male and female. (Actually the guys do better work!)

I have a sampler hanging in the shop that was stitched in 1821, in it's original frame that I repaired 20 years ago. The elderly customer (the stitcher's daughter, if I remember) passed away before she could pick it up, and she had no family, so I inherited it. It gets a lot of attention from my x-stitchers!
 
If I may be allowed

I have some very definet opinions about this topic . However while I am no longer framing I did for 18+ years and the bulk of my business was Cross stitch and I also did a lot of other forms of Needle art.

First I'll give you what i think is the down side of doing these works. most are on the smaller side and as such don't bring too large a sales Ticket but do require a more intensive amount of Labor ( especially if done to C/P standards or even close)

I say this because a lot of print or Photographic work or even canvas work doesn't require the stretching and care that textiles do. i also found that most Cross stitch work looked better with a more elaborate matting and even some CREATIVE design techniques since the boarders and back grounds of most are all but blank.

Of course if you did a good job on those points you could increase the Ticket price and justly so. I did so for many years with out CMCs but now a lot of the skill can be diminished by imaginative use of the Canned cuts in the CMC.


Next the reason a lot of this work does go to those specialty shops that sell needle art supplies is (IMHO) that the average Stitcher has more confidence in framers who KNOW and UNDERSTAND ( even if undeserved) what is being framed. I say this because i have often read and heard different types of needle art referred to by totaly incorrect names and components and as such the normal stitcher will look else where for some one to frame there hard work.

I once saw and attended a class identify the various types of needle art and what they each required and was amazed at how little really good framers new about the subject. We frequently read about Cross stitch and maybe even Lien work but there is a host of other forms of needle art and some may containning a few versions in one work. Just as you would horrify a client by calling a serigraph/silk Screen a photo so to a lot of stitchers are going to look else where when you say things like did they wash their needlepoint or do they want their cross stitched BLOCKED. It also may get very frustrating when you take in a Mole and can't for the life of you figure out why it won't stretch evenly in all directions.

Of course you may also show your lack of needle art knowledge when you assume that ALL works come in KIT form and that they have all the necessary framing materials in any kit that can't be better designed then what the Needle art designer suggest. many of these designers are very much like ARTIST they don't want any attention given to framing or matting and will insist that anything other than a simple frame on a mat less job is distracting. while I truly belive that just the opposite brought droves of needle worker to us for years.

That includes the BB down the street who often admitted they couldn't duplicate what the stitcher had seen at our shop and whose counter help( both at the Framing and needle work departments) quietly sent customers to us when asked for our type of work.

So in a nut shell you have to learn what you are working with and advertise your trainning and advertise and display the results ( Accurately educate the consumer) or how else will they know you KNOW what they NEED and you want to sell? LOL

In the way of an answer to how many Cross Stitch jobs I took in ( took since I no longer do) there was a time when I had to convince the public ,"Yes! I can frame other things besides needlework." In fact that used to infuriate me privately since as i mentioned needle art is more labor intensive than most other framing and I did study and learn all the others to be able to frame needle art but the public ( even stitchers ) felt it was some way different than all other FRAMING. And I of course couldn't understand or agree at all. So maybe coming from the other direction may be more credible to the public.ARGHHHHH! So I took in several pirces a day every day even when I finally was excepted as being able to frame other things. But then Maybe that was because i did it so much better than those who really didn't WANT it in the first place. I still get asked when am i going to reopen.ROTFWLMAO

BUDDY
 
Interesting thread!! We average only a few per month, and all of them are from our regular custom framing customers. I can't remember the last time a NEW customer brought one in. We have 2 needle work shops that do "framing" in the immediate area and the framing is very inexpensive. I'd like to pull some of their framing business over to us, but they seem very loyal to the needle work shops.
 
Definitely comes in spurts, and the cross stitchers are a tight crowd. If you get the right reputation with them, they always tell others. A customer of mine, who happens to be a former framer, just opened a very nice needlepoint shop in a near by town. She specifically talked to me about liking the quality of my work and is recommending her customers to come here for framing. I appreciate that quite a bit, especially since there is a framer around the corner from her. I do likewise and encourage my customers to check her out. I hope this will mean an increase in business from both ends.

I always feel with cross stitchers/needlepointers that you have to earn their respect and trust. No other customer is more picky about who handles their work IMO.
 
BUDDY said:
Next the reason a lot of this work does go to those specialty shops that sell needle art supplies is (IMHO) that the average Stitcher has more confidence in framers who KNOW and UNDERSTAND ( even if undeserved) what is being framed. I say this because i have often read and heard different types of needle art referred to by totaly incorrect names and components and as such the normal stitcher will look else where for some one to frame there hard work...
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Guilty as charged, Buddy. Excellent post and you made some very astute comments.

Where does one find out more information about the different types of needle art?

:shrug:
 
Steph said:
...I always feel with cross stitchers/needlepointers that you have to earn their respect and trust. No other customer is more picky about who handles their work IMO.
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I think that's right, Steph. Trouble is, these customers often misplace their trust without understanding the issues. For example, a lot of cross stitchers believe that glass is a no-no just because their "instructor" said so. And it seems that nobody has talked with them about the long term heirloom value of their needle art, or the permanent damage that comes from adhesives.:shrug:
 
TGFU said:
Interesting thread!! ...
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Pun intended, Jim???

:smileyshot22:

I caught it, but it didn't exactly leave me in stitches!

Sorry, just had to needle you.

:faintthud:
 
Dave said:
...Where does one find out more information about the different types of needle art?
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NEEDLEWORK FRAMING, Volume 3 of Vivian Kistler's Library of Professional Picture Framing. It is complete, clear, concise, and well illustrated. I think the 2002 edition is the current one, but they go back to 1987.

Ms. Kistler also has a very good DVD about framing needleart.
 
I find this thread interesting. Quite a wide range of responses. Let me weigh in with mine.
I do a significant (for me) amount of framing needlework. It accounts for over 30% of my business. In the first couple of years that I was open, I hardly saw any needlework. Then after getting to know the lady who owns a local needlework shop, I started getting some business. Now I see folks from over 60 miles north, 25 miles west, and 30 or so miles south of here. They pass many other shops to bring there work here. I enjoy the work and let them know it. I find that the jobs can be very nice ones. Today I have one that I sold for $285. Another at $150. The most expensive was around $500. They are willing to spend the money. Most buy glass and double or triple mats. Quite often the mats are fabric. Around a third buy museum glass. The ones that try the museum glass often won't use anything else after that.

BTW, they are the main group of folks that will drive the distances I mentioned. :kaffeetrinker_2:
 
Bob:

We do about 3-4 a week average all year (about 1/6 of all framing by volume {sheer number of jobs} and also by sales) so it is a good part of our business.

Regarding Needleworks: I'd say over the last 5 years the volume has dropped 70% and the sales have increased 30%. However, most of our volume has reduced 50% over that period and all sales have been up & down though they have increased slightly over that period.

Hope that helps.

Brian
 
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Dave said:
Pun intended, Jim???
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Dave, Yes, that was intended! If you knew me, that's about as funny as I can get...lol!

Anyway.....I agree from previous posts that they are a "picky" group, but I would also add that they are very hard to 'sell up'....but we still try. Most of them want the thin frames, and oak seems to be very popular with those that we get.
 
Strangely enough, my first paying frame job is a needlework from a friend. The person who did it for them had it framed at Hobby Lobby. Looks like it was pinned to an acid free board...then jammed into a 1/4 black metal frame and smashed directly against the glass - no mats no attempt at presentation...poor thing...
 
When I worked in southern California I remarked on how few needleworks I saw. A gentleman I work with remarked that "it's more of an Eastern thing". He said that in areas where people can be outside 11 and a half months a year why would they sit inside stitching?

I think there's an element of truth to that. Also at about that same time Craft and Needlework Age was reporting that needlwork was a shrinking segment of craft materials sales, being eclipsed by scrapbook supplies. Scrapbooks are still strong and knitting is a few years into a renaissance.

I have one regular client who does counted cross-stitch. Most of the other needleart I see is being reframed.

(and for the record, I do not sell a ton of Museum Glass)
 
Probably a northern thing too with the cold weather

Any Floridians do needlework?
 
Steph said:
and the cross stitchers are a tight crowd. If you get the right reputation with them, they always tell others.
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We did a piece for the president of the local embroidery guild after "her" frame shop closed. She was happy and spread the word. The best part is that I convinced one of the ladies to use museum glass instead of no glass. It was a large beautiful piece that had many, many hours invested in it and I hated to send it out without glass. Now the other members are going for the museum glass.

We probably do 15-20 pieces a month. A few weeks ago, they asked me if they could have a stitch in at the shop (a meeting while they stitched). YOU BET!

So we do a fair amount of needlework and most of the museum glass that we sell is for needlework rather than for prints/pictures.
 
Needlework is and excellent application for Museum Glass. I've found that anything with texture utilizes all the advantages of the clarity and "no glass" look.
 
Steph said:
Definitely comes in spurts, and the cross stitchers are a tight crowd.
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Get thee behind me Satan!


I always feel with cross stitchers/needlepointers that you have to earn their respect and trust. No other customer is more picky about who handles their work IMO.
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Absolutely, and they are also among the most appreciative of a job well done.

We get more than our fair share of needlework to frame, not least of all because we sell it and give incentive to return it for framing.
 
Addendum and Thanks

Dave thanks for the compliment. It isn't very often my post/Comments are said to be EXCELLENT and or ASTUTE. LOL I'll bet you can find some that say just the opposite with out too much searching.

As to where you can find instruction I think either Vivian Kistler or Kaye Evans conducted that class to which I refereed. It was almost and exact duplicate of the class at our trade shows given by William Parker on Recognizing Forms of Fine Art. However where I got many years of instruction was at the Needle art Guild shows. it has been along time since i attended one ( SEYG/INRG) but they used to have a lot of Cross over Framing instruction and many of it's members were also PPFA members. In fact Kaye Evans was a well known instructor. And just like the Framing Myths that we encounter there are a lot of MYTHCONCEPTIONS that are spread as truisms among needle artist Like the one Jim Mentioned about Never Glazing needle art . I think if we do a search on TFG archives you will find a reference of mine to an an instructor Marion Scholar of needle art who was a degree holder of the Royal Academy of England in Needle art who very vocally debunked that Myth in a class I attended some 10 or more years ago. But like many of our MYTHS the self serving EXPERTS perpetuate the misconception .

At one time I considered trying to share my knowledge in both fields but Alas I stopped going to needle art shows. So maybe some of you could contact them and offer skills in Framing and encourage them to share the needs of needle art.

Some one touched on the heart of a problem when they said that needle artist are very PICKY maybe because the work took so long to complete. My wife Marie has a large cross stitch work of Oak Alley Plantation , stitched over two threads or doubled in size as Lien is done, that is 17 inches tall by 32 inches wide on 22 count Aida fabric which is the equivalent of 11 stitches to the inch , so you can add up the number of stitches even if it isn't solid. However it is as clear as any picture of that old plantation . It took her all of about 4-6 months of stitching to complete . So she is very justly Proud of the completed work. I framed it in a 3 inch LJ moulding with triple mats that were carved in the corners to form a octagunal effect . She only allowed me to use it in the shop for a month and then it went to OUR home , where it proudly hung until Katrina floated it off the Chimney . the Frame was discolored the mats ruined but the needle art is presntly awaiting for m e to collect enough materials to do it justus once agin. Other than some rust stains from Glazeing points on the back of the ground Aida it is as ready as when Marie first made htis work of ART.However those Oak Alley works and others like them weren't limited to Marie's efforts . I'll bet we framed dozens of them, not to brag on the framing but how much work these ladies and gents ( that's right gents and even kids) put in to this Work.

So if they are PICKY they have every right to be. In fact the biggest problem I had when trying to show framing designs was the converse from the stitchers. they inevitable said " oh i don't want to spend that much. It is just something i did in my spare time." i once heard a great reply to that . some one trying to sell a finished and Framed Oak alley was offered $700 . the shop owner took it down and the buyer thought they had a deal. Only to be told H3ll no! it took over 400 man hours to stitch this by the designer herself . she could bag groceries for minimum wage for more than that. And that doesn't even include the Framing. She took it home and hung it on her own wall where someone would appreciate the true ART it was.

Besides that as i told you there is a lot more labor involved it framing ANY form of NEEDLE ART and as such a lot more to consider than most other framing . So they aren't being PICKY they are be CAREFUL with their HARD time consuming work, that they have every right to be PROUD of and not left to any framer who sees it as just another piece of needle craft from some kit found in the BB.

Now as to why you may have seen less of these works aside from their being brought elsewhere. As with mist hand Crafts they go in cycles and when we were still in Business needle art even Cross stitch ( one of the easiest to learn ) was on the downward trend . however it does seem to be rejuvenating. I know this since when we went to classes i attended classes with Kathleen Epstein a needle work Historian who taught trends dating back to the 1700s. I also would go home and love to show my Needlework talented Mother the NEWEST skill I had seen, only to be told how she did the same things when she was a kid just over from Italy and liveing in rural Louisiana.

If i seem offensive excuse me but you see I have long had a real problem with Framers who felt that my skills and skills of Needle artist were some how not as good or as important as art produced with a brush or pen and don't even mention a press. Does the topic of irreplaceability of a work come to mind? And have you ever seen the prices of Antique Samplers of hundreds of years ago? Not to mention the Special skills needed to Correctly frame some of these very primitive looking / very frail works.

Sorry I get carried away when i think of the MYTHCONCEPTIONS I encountered learning to frame needleart and why some feel it is beneath them.

BUDDY
 
Yes they do needlework in Florida..lots of older generation does it as a hobby...lots of classes and clubs around...we do 12-15 month avg year around. We have a good rep amoung the clubs and instructors.
 
for general information, at JA's we did a LARGE number of xstiches avg 20/month. Here I've done zero.

In 2005, according to the BB, Yarn and scrapbooking were going to be the "hobby trend for about 10yrs" and the departments were grown to relect that consumer trend. Xstitching was a department the took a big hit and lost about 40% of it's merchandize.

To those who have "tapped into" the clubs, groups, etc. will find the diehard stitchers.

Personally, I love stitching! and am a diehard...
 
Buddy I guess how I said picky in my head and how it may have read were different. I CAN and DO appreciate the fact that I have to earn the respect and trust of a needleworker because they put many hours into the final product. Why do I know this, because in a former life, before children I used to cross stitch on aida and linen alot. That changed with the birth of my second child....who is now 12,lol. So I personally feel a great sense of pride when they do recommend me, because I know I have earned from them their trust to handle their hard work. Which takes considerably longer for them to create than for us to frame. That was my intended point to my post :)

I currently have 2 customers who were former framers, sending customers to me, that also gives me a great sense of pride in my work. We know how picky a framer can be!
 
How about the time spent selling, designing, stretching (and re-stretching) vs most other less demanding jobs.

It's been awhile since i've asked, but if I remember correctly, most folks told me that what they charged for stretching was nowhere near their "shop" rate

Not picking on needleart clients, but I would rather do a diploma for $150 than a cross stitch for about the same money (and size)

Others?
 
"Some one touched on the heart of a problem when they said that needle artist are very PICKY maybe because the work took so long to complete."


Buddy,
Perhaps I should not have used the word "PICKY" and instead used "Looks over finished piece very closely". Also, I understand that a person making something themselves, and taking a long time to complete it, is going to be more inclined to want the finished piece to be perfect. One of my framers is a cross stitch person, so I let her stretch and mat all needlework, and the customers always love her finished pieces.
Bill
Ocean Art
 
I don't know about that Bob, I charge for that time spent stretching and the material its on, and it doesn't take long to complete the proper stretching on most pieces. Some are tougher than others that is a fact! Also, these stitchers, I mean the good ones, the serious ones; not the 'I bought this prestamped kit o'crap at a craft store' stitchers, know what time it takes to treat their work with proper techniques. So the question should be, If you aren't charging properly for the time it takes to frame needlework, how come??
 
Bob Carter said:
Not picking on needleart clients, but I would rather do a diploma for $150 than a cross stitch for about the same money (and size)

Others?
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Well if the x stitch job was the same size then it would cost considerably more than the diploma because.

1. You have to make it frameABLE before you even get to the stage of confirming measurements for the dipoma.

2. It should require more space from the glass - stitches are proud of the fabric - plus there may be French knots - beads etc etc etc; ink is not proud of the paper.

3. The stretched thing, smaller than the glass but larger than the mat aperture, needs to be made flush - more time, more material and probably a deeper rabbetted and more expensive moulding than would be required for the diploma.

Not charging enough to stretch something is usually down to not being adept - it's not the customers' fault that it takes you an hour to do what I could do in 15 mins and maybe with a better result?
 
Steph said:
If you aren't charging properly for the time it takes to frame needlework, how come??
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Because in my world, the people that come in with needlework are the absolute cheapest customer.

I have never understood why that is.

They expect it to cost next to nothing.

If I charged my normal shop rate, I would lose the couple a month I'm getting now.
 
Jerry, I agree with you. That is certainly what I have seen too, with a few exceptions. Kind of like an Artist....most want to frame cheaply!
 
Jerry,
I have very few customers like that. Most of my needlework customers appreciate the cost of framing. I do have a closeout corner for those that want "cheap". Sometimes a new customer will come in and want cheap. I show them "nice" and then, if they insist, "cheap". Usually they go with the "nice". After that, when they come in again, they go for the "nice" and don't bother with the "cheap".
Now "artist" be they watercolor, pastel, or oil/acrylic, they want cheap. I send them to the local wholesaler and continue working. :kaffeetrinker_2:
 
John - what a charming turn of phrase "Stitches are proud of the fabric."

Back in the seventies, needlepoint and crewel and stitcheries were the rage - we did piles of them - some looking kwite like Rya rugs on the back!

Then along came counted cross stitching in the early eighties and I framed more (but thinner) piles of them - had dedicated stitchers who drove for miles to frame their latest showpiece.

Now I find it hard to remember when it was the last time someone brought in anything other than ancient crumbling samplers - or, OK, last week when an artist who works in fabric brought in a little beaded piece for matting, glass, spacers and a simple metal frame (but I sold her a Vivid!).

Around here Counted Cross Stitch has gone the way of the dodo.
 
I must say, threads like this always make me have a nagging thought. I think its important to realise that different areas and different style shops will have.....well a difference in many things. Jerry's comment reminded me that years ago I managed a mall based store, a completely different shop than my own, but only 4-5 miles from where I now have my own place I do seem to recall that at that shop we experienced price resistance from more needleworkers at that shop than my own. So I guess it is important to rememeber that we all as shop owners face different types of challenges, geting the customer in the door, charging what our work is worth and getting the customer to go for it.
 
Jerry-I hear you and I also agree with Robo, but more customers agree with Jerry

For fun, let's assume an 8x10 opening, a single Alpha mat, the required mounting for either and UV glass and fit. For some level of consistency use Larson 486cmg

How much for the diploma (time and dollars)

How much for the Xstitch (time and dollars)

For us design time is much less for diploma (hey school colors and we're done), framing time much less (1/2 hr minimum)

Just because we want to charge what we think it's what it's worth doesn't mean the consumer will agree

I am suspecting that the answers will shock some
 
Bob Carter said:
would rather do a diploma for $150 than a cross stitch for about the same money (and size) Others?
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ME TOO!
But if the needlework is what is coming thru the door, I'm not sending them to Michaels. A month or so ago, we took in 12 pieces of needlework in a week. I decided that if we were the only ones doing it around here, it was time to tweak the prices. Haven't had anyone complain so maybe it's time to tweak them again.
 
But again Bob, I still say we have to charge accordingly, or why bother opening the doors. I see where Jerry is coming from, and I sympathize with the situation, but to me pricing for a diploma and pricing for a needlework is not an apples to apples comparison. Isn't that what anyone should be doing, pricing the jobs worth and consideration for the extra materials involved. It's not my intention to make less profit on a needlework than I would a diploma. AND, I do feel that if you do experience price resistance , then that is the time to talk to the customer about how they value their own time it took to make the piece to begin with. ALSO, as Robo mentioned, it is important for us as framers to become proficient at doing these more laborious tasks, the average stretch should not take that long. Remember I did say the average. Hopefully as framers we also recognise at the design table the difference between the piece that will take more time compared to the ones that are a breeze, so that we can price accordingly.
 
Counted cross stitches should be an absolute breeze to stretch - compared to badly done needlepoint - Oy VEY - some people sure knew how to stitch those puppies out of square!!! One customer with needlepoints used to phone up the kit companies to complain they had not provided her with enough wool - and there on the back was that aforementioned Rya rug! LOL!

The only cross sticthes I have ever had trouble straightening were the non counted variety - the ones with the little blue x's.
 
Bob Carter said:
In Aug 07 PFM Vivian's article on "Selling Crss-stich" starts with "Cross-stich continues to be an extremely popular form of needlework and frequent frame job."

This is another example of how badly we must be marketing our biz. I continue to hear how people sell "tons" of Museum Glass, and "tons" of Shadow Boxes. And now Cross stitich

We just don't seem to sell but a couple of jobs a month

And, I think if time vs dollars were analyzed., I'm not sure that it concerns me

But, what about the rest of you? Do you sell more them frequently

And, no, I'm not picking on Vivian
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We used to sell a lot of needepoint and cross stitch framing. It just dried up. I was surprised by Vivian's aritcle, because we just don't see much of it anymore. After reading the article, Jeff and I decided to bring in a piece my mom did and reframe it as an example for the wall. Maybe it will generate interest as it is a beautiful Unicorn Tapestry piece.

I'm not sure if in our fast paced society in the Bay Area, it has gone out of style, or if for some reason that business is going somewhere else. I have seen a couple of needlepoint type shops go out of business. We certainly frame a lot of everything else, and a lot of artist's work, but very few hand stitched pieces.
 
MnSue said:
for general information, at JA's we did a LARGE number of xstiches avg 20/month. Here I've done zero.

In 2005, according to the BB, Yarn and scrapbooking were going to be the "hobby trend for about 10yrs" and the departments were grown to relect that consumer trend. Xstitching was a department the took a big hit and lost about 40% of it's merchandize.

To those who have "tapped into" the clubs, groups, etc. will find the diehard stitchers.

Personally, I love stitching! and am a diehard...
Click to expand...

I have seen examples of 12 x 12 Creative Memories scrapbooking mats cut on CMCs online. Along with name mats which we need to get into in a larger way. Scrapbooking seems to be much bigger than needlepoint work here. I am doing 17 restorations with Digital Custom for a woman right now because they are going in a Creative Memories album. I'm not a dealer, but I do have the tools in the shop so people can use them if they need to for the occasional collage work. We make deckeled edges from the on CM papers as well to go underneath mats on antique photos. Hard to describe but its on our Heritage Framing web page.
 
I could check tomorrow, but if I was to hazard a guess at the average $$ for needlework ticket, I would have to be nudging it just north of $250. Average diploma with fabric mat, fillet and museum rarely gets that high.

Blocking or stretching starts at $45 and goes up sharply at $60/hr. Same for sewing down.

Needleworkers are one group that you don't have to explain labor to. We get about 3-5/week. A good portion of them it's dropped of with..."I was thinking an oval might be nice on..... and let Baer play with some fabric for the mat.."

We got in one just yesterday that is in the mid century like 1860..... I think the comment about the War between was a sort of give-away.... Because of the fragile nature I discussed the merits of a matching linen bag sewn over an 8-ply rag mat with the old X-stitch tack stitched down to the bag. Then about a riser for the rag board with a Rayon (Antique Satin) main mat that matches the lavender Day Lilies in the stitchery...... About $450 with $250 of that labor. "As long as it has Museum glass."

They [as a group] were a little hesitant about me, until word got around that my wife used to do X-stitch on the back of the motorcycle when we did longer trips....... :D
Now I guess I'm kinda OK. Some days I feel like I'm on probation. Get their respect.. you've got them for life.

Needlepointers are a flakey group, fadish. X-stitchers and Tatters are for life. We must send out about a dozen or more X-stitched Christmas cards a year. Then there are the "Some Bunny loves you" Easter cards, and "I stink I love you" Skunk cards..... and I can't design enough dog card graphs for my wife.... its enough to drive me X-eyed.
 
Ok I am calmer now and have been awy from the keyboard awhile.

First to all I seemed to be berateing for the use of the word PICKY I aplogize if I seemed to be attacking anyone. I have a real problem with those who say to treat irreplacable work even if finger paints like their most valuable work and then look down their noses at needle art. And worse find the knowledgable SERIOUS needle artist to be too careful about how their hard, long labored skilled art is Framed/ preserved .

That said I think I already said that one of the biggest challenges in getting stitchers to agree to really well designed and properly framing of their work is that they often think ogit as "Just something I did in my spare time." and as such they feel it can always be replaced with another effort.

But IMO that is where our design and salesmanship comes in. It also amazes me to hear some who will discount their other work to keep someone from walking but would rather let a Stitched piece go elsewhere because of the labor involved. I may be mistaken but isn't that what we are taught to do when showing the customer why the extra cost is worth every penny to protect that hard worked ORIGINAL needle art that will be cheerish by family long after they are gone? but then i never was much of a slaesman and as many of you gave away a lot of extra work just because I FELT it needed it . all the while I was driveing my self out of business as i have been told many times.

I once framed an origninal design for a well known Cross stitch designer. She told me she was very impressed but a lot of her designs just weren't selling in fact there was this one "New Orleans Neighborhood" ( a group of three shoot gun houses) that omly my shop seemed to be selling .she even offered to sell me all the remainningstock. I almost took the offer until i told her the reason was her cover was tooo plain and she should use my matting ( contoured to the roof tops and accented by Raised gingerbread cut outs on the sides) she took the offer and never offered the sale agin. I guess the patteren 's sales suddenly picked up. Still another example was the Bride pattern i showed here before. i did a very elaborate carved amt to accompany some inovating changes Marie did to make the work 3 demensional. First the original designer didn't even recognize it at first. Then when hung in our shop after a Most innovative competiton at the INRG show a customer wanted to do it JUST LIKE ours includeing the mats. I really didn't want to do it again ( it took 2 hours to carve the mats alone, not to mention the demensional mounting) So i told her the 9X12 mats alone would cost $85 , thinking she surely would refuse. Only she agreed so fast my head is still spinning and while doing it another customer asked if i could repeat it. Point being when it is what they want and done well they will pay.

Another Point being if you do creative designs to that NORMAL run of the mill stitched work and Charge apropriately for your time the customers will keep comimg back.

I did however say that most framers don't want the troble of stretching and mounting and spaceing needle art nor designing mats that accent the work as opposed to just chooseing the RIGHT COLOR mats and Filets. I once when takeing the CPF exam was talking to Bill Parie and Fred Horton ( both personal friends and neighbors) The topic moved to Mounting and Laceing and what we charged. I said I had a tough time getting St. Bernardiens to agree to the extra cost.Fred said he was so proficient he only charged $10 at that time. bill asked for Freds card. Feeling flatered Fred asked if Bill liked his ability. To which Bill replied NO! "i just have done my dues working so hard for so little and I'll gladly send it all to you while I ( Bill) do much easier , bigger jobs and charge much more." he wasn't lieing and I think we all learned something , are any of you?

While a lot of my customers where to cheap to pay waht the work was worth , many learned that attitude from my giving away extras becuse i thought it looked beeter and they wouldn't agree to pay. I think I heard some one already say "WHOSE FAULT WAS THAT?Still I had other "SERIOUS STITCHERS" come from miles awy to have me frame their work and took cards to their needle art guilds to recommend the Framing. No brag just if it is waht they want and they know what is neede they not only will pay but will travel to have the privilge. I have said it before , I am still being asked if I reopened on the North Shore ( 25- 30 miles awy from most old needleart customers) because they wanted to tell their needle art guilds where I could be found.

I never conducted my business like a Business but those who claim they can should have no problem making a profit framing needlart if they Learn to know what they are Framing and what it requires and can accent the work while preserving it. Of course there is less of it at this time so if you charge too little or just rush it out the shop you really shouldn't bother to persue it IMHO. I am not slighting anyone but just a well chosen mat color and frame and or Filet can be done by anyone and most needle artist know that and want to pay whatthey feel it is worth.

BUDDY
PS the problem with the comaprison of crossstitch to diplomas is that they will never require the same amout of labour or creativeity and then the bigger ticket non stitched work is much more common than a comparable sized work of needle art.

But would anyone care to suggest what that 17X32 inch image Oak Alley with triple carved mats and 2.5 - 3 in. LJ Victoria Moulding in a finished size of appx.25 X40 would sell in other shops for? I didn't charge . after all I didn't want to be devorced, but Marie is one of the MOST serious Stitchers and Framers I know.LOL Howevr remember I did dozens of others even if not quiet as nice.
 
In step with Doug, I believe that cross stitch popularity among other needleworks is fairly regional. We average about 15-20 a month now, a far cry from the early 90's when we used to count them by the sack.
 
I really owe all of you a big apology ( seriously)

I keep trying to control my rants and fail. So let me give a more helpful reply. I think it would be really contradictory to discuss methods for preventing customers from walking to the nearest BB, and then to seemingly disregard Needle art of any kind as too labor intensive and thereby less desirable from a framers prospective.

IMHO that smacks of pure framing Snobbery or worse taking the easy way out. While I and all other framers love those quick and easy jobs that have the impression of being HIGH class art ,all framing jobs work pay the bills and if done well can create a niche that will bring in additional $$$$ . And all the Business logic I missed seems to suggest that we turn away no profit makeing work.

The problems are; Do we create demand , by Knowing what we are dealing with and creating a unique design, and chargeing a adeqit price for what we are doing so as to satisfy the customer and make the effort worth while for us.

If we do we might just cause the waining interest in CROSS STITCH or any thing else brought in to revitalize, as some regional and individual framing markets suggest.IMHO the stitcher needs to have a pleasant to the eye and cost worthy way to display their ART or there is no reason to continue.

Otherwise why does the trend flourish in one shop or region while dieing in another at the exact same time.

Now did I do that better and more politely?I certainly Hope so and beg your forgivrnrss for previous RANTS.

BUDDY
 
BUDDY said:
...

The problems are; Do we create demand , by Knowing what we are dealing with and creating a unique design, and chargeing a adeqit price for what we are doing so as to satisfy the customer and make the effort worth while for us....
BUDDY
Click to expand...

You just summed up everything in this paragraph.

If we are knowledgeable about this art form we will attract those who practice it. If we charge adequately such that we are reasonably compensated for our efforts and expertise and provide a quality product to our customer, then we will have a satisfied customer and feel rewarded for our efforts.

If any of these elements are missing:

1.) Knowledge base of the art form
2.) Talent in design
3.) Talent in craftsmanship
4.) Adequate compensation

...then either the customer or the framer or both will not be satisfied and it is business the framer shouldn't take on.

Buddy ...Stop apologizing. Sometimes you verge on a rant, but only because you're passionate about what you have to say. You have added great input based on sound experience to this thread.
 
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