Cringeworthy Mounting

[Shayla]

I'm still shaking my head at a piece that came in
yesterday. One of my dear little ladies paid a well-
collected local artist $125.00 for this little pastel on
paper. It was in an 11x14 frame with a dustcover on
the back, but when we took it apart, it was a cheap
readymade underneath. With the back that's just held
in by little flippy things. That was no big deal. Then I
took the mat off.

The pastel is on paper, and it's plastered to a
one ply thick piece of 'cardboard paper' with
a whole grid of ATG tape. It's the dangedest
thing. I know this artist, and even though
she uses paper mats and tapes her pieces
on all four sides to the back of the mat,
at least I can take it off. This has about five
strips of ATG going each way behind it,
across the whole back. I would call the
artist and comment on it, but she's one of
the few in town who can be prickly, so my
words would fall on deaf ears.

I'm just astounded that she would do such
a thing, and my lady was, too. I said, 'You
don't even have to mention me, as that
might make her feel defensive about being
ganged up on. But you can tell her you had
no idea it was stuck down with the ATG
and see if you can get your money back.'
At first she wanted to, then she decided to
just reframe it as is, but not buy another
one without first knowing.

I told her that I can try a blowdryer from the back,
and see if heat will help it release, but the paper
it's painted on is pretty thin. And even if I could
get it off, there would still be sticky on one side
and unsprayed pastel on the other.

Would you try to remove it, or leave it as is?
She said that even if we can't get it off, she'll
go ahead and frame it. She wants the original,
not a scanned copy.

 

[Rick Granick]

Leave it, leave it, leave it. It's too fragile to mess with. The damage has been done. Don't risk making it worse. The visible part within the cardboard window is the part she's interested in anyway. I would put a real mat above that, maybe with a recessed one underneath to catch flakes. It'll look great when you're finished.
Rick

 

[Framar]

And, depending on how old your lady is, the pastel will surely outlast her so do not worry about a little ATG. Let her be happy in her declining years....

 

[Shayla]

Thanks for the comments, Rick and Mar.

We came up with a nice design, and I know she'll go
ahead and frame it as is if I tell her I can't fix it.
After I explained that it's not conservation, and will
eventually damage the piece, I said, 'But it will
last for your lifetime, the next twenty years.' (She's
79, so I figured that was safe.) Rightly enough, she
said, 'But I want to give it to one of my children when
I die.'

She's willing to put up with it as is, but I think it's
just awful for the artist to use such a crummy
technique. It's not like it would have cost
any less to hinge it to a piece of foam core.
She said if she ever buys any more, she'll make
sure it's not done that way, first. So many people
buy art without a clue as to how it's constructed.
And they can't be expected to ask what they don't
know.

 

[Jim Miller]

Shayla, I suggest putting a note inside the frame explaining that you didn't perpetrate the mess.

Sooner or later someone else will take it apart, and you don't want them thinking you had anything to do with it. Even if you don't put your sticker on the back, there would probably be a receipt from your shop somewhere.

 

[Artrageous]

 

[Shayla]

Thanks for the smile, Mark.
And for the good advice, Jim.

 

[Candy]

No, no, no and NO!!!

I can get myself into enough trouble without doing something like that on purpose. It is already destroyed, but I wouldn't attempt to destroy it any further.

 

[Artrageous]

I say we blame Candy and be done with it.

 

[Candy]

I say we blame Candy and be done with it.

That is artrageous!!!!!

And I do have a big thank you to Custom Digital for their great work in getting me out of a bit of trouble.

 

[Bron]

I'm torn on this, as I can sympathize with all parties involved. The artist wasn't trained in a "craft" tradition, thanks to the mounting of ART on a pedestal, the framer wants to do a good job, and the customer wants it to last. I could start ranting, as few artists have a knowledge of, or appreciation for the craft of art.



Shayla dearest, don't fret, some art is just meant to be ephemeral. I also think letting it be, might be the least damaging approach.

An aside, as I've gotten older, I've become less concerned with external rules, try to do the best with the situation at hand, and this has been a great relief to me, and those around me. OCD quelled, in part.

 

[Luddite]

I'm torn on this, as I can sympathize with all parties involved. The artist wasn't trained in a "craft" tradition, thanks to the mounting of ART on a pedestal, the framer wants to do a good job, and the customer wants it to last. I could start ranting, as few artists have a knowledge of, or appreciation for the craft of art.



Shayla dearest, don't fret, some art is just meant to be ephemeral. I also think letting it be, might be the least damaging approach.

An aside, as I've gotten older, I've become less concerned with external rules, try to do the best with the situation at hand, and this has been a great relief to me, and those around me. OCD quelled, in part.

You know this USED to annoy me...As an artist,I felt,ummm offended. NOT NOW. I "belong" to 2 art groups(never post though what a bunch of wankers).Used to be,any time a framing/matting question popped up,I`d answer correctly,and direct them to a(publically readable,of course)post concerning the question from here,or PFM`s forum.I was shot down EVERY time.So I`m reading the responses about taping all 4 sides with masking tape, etc. and chuckling like a nut job these days,thank you......L.

 

[Shayla]

I wouldn't have minded so much if she had just taped all
four sides with tape. But sticking it down with a grid of
ATG is just wrong in so many ways.

Okay, so maybe it's only wrong in one way,
but that sure felt good to write.

It just bothers me that this artist did it, because
she should know better. She sells her larger originals
for around a thousand dollars, and just because this
little one cost so much less, that shouldn't mean she
can do a partially-patootied job and have it be okay.

As my dear ex boyfriend would say, 'merciful corn dodgers!'

 

[Bron]

Shayla,

This may be the most important part of the G, the ability to vent, amongst folks who have some empathy, rather than unloading on a customer who has not a clue.

This is hard won, earned knowledge; sometimes, you have to let it go.

Shayla, this is in no way meant to denigrate you, true "goddess", and if I refer to you as "dearest", it is with utmost respect.

Wow, very late; mayhaps I should go to bed

 

[Shayla]

Thanks for your sincere response, Bron.
I'm smiling with appreciation for the degree
of contemplation you gave to my posts.

Rest assured, I'm not losing any sleep over
this job. You're spot on about the Grumble
being a good place to vent (but it's best
to remember that just about anyone can
be watching). It's so nice to have this forum
to come to with my questions and frustrations.
The responses are usually full of helpful suggestions
and encouragement, and I appreciate both.

I'm also smiling at the way you address me with such
gracious deference. I'm so much an ordinary girl, and
not one of the framing experts around here. But I know
that we already have a good rapport with one another,
and I appreciate your kind words.
.
.
.

 

[Bill Henry-]

Certainly the easy way out would be just to cover the paper mat over, and leave it at that, but you might be able to use this as a learning experience for the artist.

You mentioned that she can be ‘prickly”, but if you have the time and this isn’t a holiday gift, why not call her and ask for her advice how to remove the paper mat without destroying her ‘beautiful’ pastel? Perhaps, you could ask her to stop over at her convenience and show you how. At that point (if she doesn’t slam the phone down on you) you might be able to subtly suggest it would be easier for her in the future if she uses something like P-90.

 

[Jim Miller]

I "belong" to 2 art groups...Used to be, any time a framing/matting question popped up, I'd answer correctly, and... I was shot down EVERY time...

My experience in talking with artists has been similar. Artists seem to reject advice about non-invasive/protective framing techniques.

As an artist, you may be among the best-qualified to relate. Can you explain why artists feel that way?

My theory is that artists (a good share of them, at least) are gratified mostly by creation of art; the creation of something tangible that represents what's in their heads.

But then, after the art is finished, it represents only a revenue source, which the creator wants only to sell as profitably as possible. I guess artists do not consider their artworks to have significant value, nor are they concerned about the longevity of them. After all, there's more where that came from; an artist can always make more art.

Artists may not realize that the people who appreciate their art enough to pay a price for it expect to enjoy it for a long time. A collector's motives in framing art may be completely different than the artist's.

Any comments on that theory?

 

[evartpat]

But then, after the art is finished, it represents only a revenue source, which the creator wants only to sell as profitably as possible.


I guess artists do not consider their artworks to have significant value, nor are they concerned about the longevity of it. After all, there's more where that came from; an artist can always make more art.

A big YES to the first sentence! I deal with artists everyday, and I would say this is the prevailing attitude. Like Laura, I am a professional artist, but I also work my "day job" as a professional framer. I try to educate the artists I deal with...but it is hard to get them past the bottom line of cost.

This also applies to what the artist (referring painters here) is actually painting on!! I have dealt with some well known, pretty high dollar artists in the past that paint on what is basically CARP! They are getting thousands of dollars for their work, and they can't spend an extra 100 to 200 dollars for a quality substrate. The sorry thing is, when I have pointed this out, the artist is aware of the issue, but really doesn't care about the longevity issues...

 

[BILL WARD]

our you "SURE" the artist did this???? it's IS possible she farmed this one out................maube do everyone a big favor and drop by her place to explain(in nice/kind terms(?)) the errors of doing this to her artwork? on the other hand, she might take a broom to you for being so presumptious(she IS, after all, "THE" artist!) as to point out the errors od her ways! (if she did NOT do the deed she really should know about it---tell her it's your contribution to a merrier xmas???

 

[Jim Miller]

...I try to educate the artists I deal with...but it is hard to get them past the bottom line of cost.

Yes, me too.

It is ironic that the best mounting materials may also be the cheapest for artists who do their own framing. For about the price of 2 rolls of ATG tape, an artist could get enough Japanese hinging paper and starch paste powder to mount a hundred watercolors.

In 16x20 typical framing, the material cost for mounting by 60" of masking tape to standard foam center board might be $1.00 to $2.00 less than Japanese paper hinges/starch paste to alphacellulose 4-ply board or ArtCare foam center board.

Sure, the preservation mounting takes an about ten minutes more work. Is that a big deal for an artist who might spend hours preparing to make the first brush stroke on a blank sheet of watercolor paper?

Certainly, moulding and glazing costs can add up, but those materials have little to do with the quality inside the frame.

 

[Bron]

With out going off on a rant, the ART education available, is very deficient in the actual "craft" aspects of producing art. Being in a university town, I routinely advise professors on technical aspects of art, though I'm not sure they listen. :smiley:

I don't think artists consider their work insignificant or valueless; just the need to focus on the work that is being done now, rather than a vain contemplation of what is done. Though, thinking of Julian Schnabel, what Jim said may be very accurate.

 

[Framar]

What i am at a loss to understand is the watercolor artist, for instance, who buys 400 pound Arches watercolor paper and the best Windsor and Newton watercolors and the very best brushes that they can find - and then they cheap out on the matting , framing, glass, etc.

What is up with that?????

And yet it is something I have seen hundreds and hundreds of times in the last 40 years as a framer.

 

[Beveled]

I would definately leave it, and probably wouldn't put my sticker on back, or make a note on the invoice of the condition it came in.

BTW, love the new word for my vocabulary; cringeworthy.

 

[janetj1968]

Leave it. Too much risk.

This is one of those pieces I'd put a condition report inside....so whoever opens it next doesn't hunt you down....

 

[Jim Miller]

...the watercolor artist, for instance, who buys 400 pound Arches watercolor paper and the best Windsor and Newton watercolors and the very best brushes that they can find - and then they cheap out on the matting , framing, glass, etc.

What is up with that?????

Artist: "I want the best for my art, but the framing doesn't matter."

 

[Framar]

I stopped attending the local hoity-toity artist group's grand openings ("juried shows") (HAH!) when the high priestess of their little group won first place with an (admittedly gorgeous) pastel in a hand-cut-with-a-dull-butter-knife paper mat, flecked all over with bits of pastel and lord knows what other kinds of schmutz, filthy glass, broken in one corner, and in one of those scratched metal frames that was so old it went together with angles in the front and the back!

I mentioned this presentation to one of my friend/customers who is also a member and was told that the award-winning artist had been sick.

Right.

 

[Bron]

Mar,

"Franking ..." this thread a little, over at your fight with Woody place, "Joseph" is a line from Leonard Cohen's "Stranger Song", featured in the movie, "McCabe and Mrs. Miller".

No point, just a favorite movie and song. :smiley:

 

[Bron]

Well, I as ARTIST, use good materials, and have my framer, moi, do nice frames in a proper manner. :smiley:

Framers of the world, arise!

 

[Bob Doyle]

And, depending on how old your lady is, the pastel will surely outlast her so do not worry about a little ATG. Let her be happy in her declining years....

I CAN'T believe you got away with that comment! God I love your humor Mar!!

I mentioned this presentation to one of my friend/customers who is also a member and was told that the award-winning artist had been sick.

Right.

I hope I can use that excuse someday... I'm a great framer, I was just sick the day(s) I did your art...

 

[Framar]

Bron - I know - I have the LC album and the movie and that is why I wrote the piece once the name popped into my head! Glad someone gets it!

Bron - I get the feelin' that you got a big rant inside you that is just bustin' to come out. Come on - let it loose! This is, after all, the Grumble (but if you want it to be slightly less public post it in Warped) - (You have to sign in as a member to view Warped).

 

[Framar]

Bob - I used to yell at my artist friend mark that with the carpy materials he was using (Xerox paper glued onto plywood, magic markers) his art would never last. He just laughed and said, "Neither will I!"

BTW - He died 2 1/2 years ago and his art is still going strong!

 

[Bron]

Mar,

Small rants, released into the wild, on an irregular basis, so as to not pollute the atmosphere. Maybe one of these days ... though I'm far mellower than I was as a young'n.

 

[Luddite]

My experience in talking with artists has been similar. Artists seem to reject advice about non-invasive/protective framing techniques.

As an artist, you may be among the best-qualified to relate. Can you explain why artists feel that way?

My theory is that artists (a good share of them, at least) are gratified mostly by creation of art; the creation of something tangible that represents what's in their heads.

But then, after the art is finished, it represents only a revenue source, which the creator wants only to sell as profitably as possible. I guess artists do not consider their artworks to have significant value, nor are they concerned about the longevity of them. After all, there's more where that came from; an artist can always make more art.

Artists may not realize that the people who appreciate their art enough to pay a price for it expect to enjoy it for a long time. A collector's motives in framing art may be completely different than the artist's.

Any comments on that theory?

That`s a good psychology question if ever I saw one. I would suppose that the issue of it being a revenue source hits the nail on the head,mostly.The majority of my "fellow members" there are not full time artists,and have other obligations/expenses.I`ve always been "weird",I have way too much "professional pride" to let anything out the door(both 2D and 3D) that is not as good as I can make it,and finished from all sides,properly. I HATE shoddy finishing and display...I will also take professional criticism,and know where to solicit candid comment about the job at hand.If I can`t sell a painting/print correctly mounted,and presented,I will sell it matted in a nice clearbag with a proper backer board.BTW,what in 7 kinds of H*ll are the artists I display with cutting those mats with? Hey,makes me look good....Admit it, everyone likes the ego stroke..Gotta love it when art show visitors wander over to my table space,and utter the phrase "OMG,who does your framing?" ....BTW my father was a part time artist,and always had his stuff done professionally....at a DIY type shop....I was sort of raised in said frame shop.And put to work immediately("You can`t hang out ,unless you do something"!)....Way to warp the kid, Pop ....L.

 

[Shayla]

Mar,

Small rants, released into the wild, on an irregular basis, so as to not pollute the atmosphere. Maybe one of these days ... though I'm far mellower than I was as a young'n.

I love that. 'Small rants, released into the wild.....'

Did any of you ever watch 'Harry & The Hendersons'?
It's a fluffy film about a family that finds a Bigfoot and
tries to help him learn the ways of civilized folk. One of
my all-time favorite quotes is in that film. They own
a toy fox terrier, and while out camping, the little son
decides it deserves to roam free. He tearfully takes
it to the door of the cabin and lets it loose. 'Run, Skippy!
Go back to the wild where you belong!' It yips and runs off
into the trees. When Skippy yips at the door later in the
day, the boy is shocked with joy. 'Skippy! You came
back to us!'

 

[Shayla]

Bill Ward, your idea about farming out the art was
an interesting one. It's not the case here, as I know
her and I know she did it. But I'll bear in mind that
such is possible.

Bill Henry, you mentioned the idea of asking her.
how to get it off. I suppose I could, but think I'll
leave her alone. She's one of only a few local artists
who I wouldn't contact like this. I'm very adept at
reading people, and she's one who takes umbrage
quite easily. This brings to mind an artist who spent
his whole career as a nationally known illustrator of
books and magazines. A couple years ago, a lady brought
in a portrait he had painted of her little dog. She loved it,
but it looked to me like part of the dog was missing.
It was sitting on the ground, and I just knew there should
be more dog there. Noboby else would have had the guts,
but he and I have such a good rapport that I'm brave.
I called him and asked him to come in. 'It looks like part
of this dog is missing.' He did, and called me back after he
got it home. In the original picture, there was a part of the
dog in shadow that he hadn't noticed.

With this, it's not that the mat is stuck down. The mat
came off just fine. The piece is plastered to an acidic
backing piece with a grid of ATG tape behind it. After
talking with all of you, I think I'll tell her that it's best left
as is. She'll go ahead with framing, and I'll put our
sticker on it, because it will be our mat and frame.
But I'll write a note on both the piece and the invoice
saying the condition that the art arrived in.