CPFG-PPFA Commentary

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Arno Jan Riise

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CPFG-PPFA Response Commentary and Open Letter

I have read and enjoyed various picture framing forums for some time now. I am an octogenarian and a conservator now retired. Our family operates modest framing and art enterprises in the United States, Europe, and in Canada where I am now visiting. Since I no longer practice professionally I travel back and forth between operations to keep myself active and to help out where I am able. I follow the forum discussions strictly for enjoyment. After having read some current letters I feel compelled to opinionate and perhaps stimulate some constructive thoughts.
Why is it that we in the arts professions must always learn the hard way? Why is it we treat some our best people the most shabbily? Over the years I have seen arts associations come and go. I have seen associations fractionate and become lame ducks simply because they insisted upon shooting themselves in the foot. The tone of the current CPFG-PPFA discussion is symptomatic of history repeating itself.
I have been a curator and conservator for almost sixty years. I have worked as an art consultant to governments, museums, galleries and private interests in Europe, Canada and in the United States. Over the years I have seen many changes happen. I have seen fine art conservation move from a collect and display mentality to being a respected science, where it stands today. I have seen picture framing develop into an industry. In spite of the dramatic technological changes happening in the whole spectrum of the arts industry some of the human element in it seems never to change.
Recent discussions published in the HBFN, the PPFA Hitchhikers forum and in the Picture Framers Grumble should give us reason for concern. I see history repeating itself. I see the PPFA becoming a house divided by its own hand. Speak out I will because no one can fire me and I am too old to worry about sticks and stones. After I say my piece I will go back to being a retired listener and I promise no response or follow-up.
Even though our family's American operations have enjoyed some benefit from U.S. PPFA membership, we will not be renewing. We are shocked over the PPFA's reluctance to act upon a flagrant violation of the PPFA Code of Ethics incident involving unprofessional deportment publicly exhibited by a cadre of members. We question the PPFA's integrity.
Pragmatically speaking we are in the fortunate position of being able to compare PPFA benefits on both sides of the border. We conclude that the benefits to our Canadian branch are scant and therefore prohibitively expensive. We have attended PPFA workshops and seminars in both the U.S. and in Canada and concluded that far too many of them seem to have a hidden agenda focusing upon enhancing the reputations of the presenters. When we weighed all factors we decided that our Canadian branch would not join the PPFA and that we would not renew in the U.S. The key issue for us is the Code of Ethics violation because we are of the mind that it may be symptomatic of greater underlying illness.
I am gratified by the high quality of technical questions and responses being communicated in most of the forums and I am happy that so much attention is being paid to conservation framing. The time is long past due for picture framers to be more professional in the technical aspect. I see that happening. It is particularly gratifying to see cooperative postings between conservators and framers. Although there are many excellent contributors, I particularly enjoy the advice, conversations, and comments generated by Orton Carberry.
Unfortunately Mr. Carberry was the target of unwarranted and repeated hostility in the PPFA forum from PPFA members Fredericks, Ranes and Fremstad. I identify the offenders because they acted publicly against Mr. Carberry. Their behavior was offensive. Mr. Carberry very quietly left the PPFA forum and has not made any contributions since leaving. PPFA members in that forum lost a valuable resource. I am at a loss to understand why the PPFA did not censure the offenders. The professional organizations that I am familiar with would have intervened immediately within the authority of their mandate to ensure that an appropriate level of public decorum and dignity was being maintained. Incredibly the PPFA sat on its hands and did nothing. In my opinion the PPFA undertook a giant step backward.
If I correctly understand what I have been reading in the forums the PPFA was reluctant to apply its own rules concerning ethics and behavior. Even the most charitable of observers cannot help but note the application of a double standard. Mr. Carberry cannot be faulted for objecting to that double standard. Is it little wonder that other conservators and curators do not participate in these framing forums far more frequently? Who would want to be treated in like manner? Who would want to be associated with "unprofessionalism?" The behavior exhibited by the offenders was unprofessional and offensive. For certain it was disgusting. The PPFA must be harshly criticized for its voluntary inaction.
The PPFA Code of Ethics states that "a member of Professional Picture Framers Association shall maintain a dignity of manner and behavior in the presentation of services and in ALL [emphasis is mine] other forms of professional conduct." If the PPFA is to be successful in living up to the professional image that it attempts to project, it must fastidiously observe its own rules. If the rules of common decency are to be observed the offenders must apologize first to Mr. Carberry, second to the PPFA, and third to the PPFA membership at large for having behaved unprofessionally contrary to the PPFA Code of Ethics. The PPFA needs to apologize to Mr. Carberry.
I have degrees in engineering, curatorial sciences, and fine arts, and hold a doctorate in organic chemistry, as does Mr. Carberry if my understanding is accurate. I am accustomed to speaking in "technicalese" to technically oriented people at a technical level that is usually not employed by lay persons. I confess I often have been guilty of speaking in technical language forgetting that I may not always have been understood by my listeners. I do not mean to do it, it is just a habit from many years of routinely communicating within my peer group. Yet Mr. Carberry presents highly technical and complex information accurately and in plain language in a style that the laity can understand. Not only are his responses accurate and uncolored by superfluous jargon but his style of writing makes for enjoyable reading. Many picture framers and conservators alike have benefited from his contributions.
Some time ago I had the occasion to inspect some framed art and pleasantly discovered that the framing workmanship and conservation technique used was stunningly superb. It was far superior to what anyone in that organization would have ever taken the time to do, was certainly far superior to any work the organization had ever contracted out, and was not the quality that I expected. It was one of the technically best pieces that I had seen in a long time. The sticker on the back read "Orton T. Carberry, CPF" who proved to be the same Orton Carberry whose forum responses I had been reading. Since that time I have had occasions to inspected more of Mr. Carberry's works and again found them to be consistently superb.
Too often framers are told to follow proper conservation framing procedure only to observe that in practice proper procedure is compromised and rationalized. I saw it happen frequently in my institutional work and I would guess that most framing shops see it happen every day. In an industry that says it wants to encourage conservation framing but seems to be more preoccupied with the "bottom line" and with quantity instead of quality, you Mr. Carberry, are to be commended for practicing what is preached. Good sir, you are an asset to the art and framing industry.
Two years ago at one of his lectures Mr. Carberry presented arguments vigorously supporting the PPFA which resulted in some of our family joining the PPFA. He was a very strong and convincing advocate of the PPFA. Today he is not so strong an advocate of the PPFA and is revisiting a separate picture framers association for Canadian framers, the Canadian Picture Framers Guild. Forum traffic is suggestive that there are others who may be thinking along parallel lines.
I have followed the Code of Ethics incident from its beginning and after listening to the current CPFG-PPFA discourse I cannot help but support Mr. Carberry's position. I take this one step further and suggest that the PPFA has breached membership trust by ignoring its own standards. There is no allowable latitude or gray area for mis-interpretation here. Either the PPFA is professional or it is not. Either the PPFA means what it says or it does not. There is no room for shilly-shallying about!
The PPFA rules state that members will conduct "all" forms of their conduct with dignity. The behavior exhibited by the offenders was less than dignified. The PPFA's ignoring of the matter is certainly less than dignified and is ethically wrong. Mr. Carberry paid his membership fee in good faith but has the PPFA acted in good faith? Is the PPFA truly sincere about its intentions or is it a scandal?
We support Mr. Carberry's quest to maintain sound ethics. Until this matter is satisfactorily addressed by the PPFA, PPFA membership will not be considered by any of our sites. At present the PPFA does not have our confidence. It is our opinion that the PPFA breached our membership trust and left an injustice unresolved. We support Mr. Carberry's petition requesting that the PPFA adhere to its own rules. I ask the PPFA where its morals are. Why does the PPFA have to be asked to apply its own mandate?
I fail to understand the logic of alienating contributors of goodwill and technical expertise. Is it pride? Is it being afraid to say "We are sorry, we made a mistake?" Is it because Mr. Carberry is not among an elite Establishment within the PPFA? If the answer is yes, I see no hope for the PPFA, because that attitude creates factions. Factions within associations demoralize and will result in the attrition of valued people. If the answer is "No, we are not afraid to acknowledge that we made a mistake" the PPFA must quickly act in good faith, publicly redress its breach of trust, and say "We are sorry, we made a mistake, it will not happen again." If the PPFA truly values its membership and is sincere in its mission statement it must make the first move toward reconciliation and it must move without delay. To again fail to act will only confirm that the PPFA does not intend to act in the best interests of all of its members.
The real subject for consideration in this discussion goes beyond suggestion of issue over hurt feelings and personal sensitivities. This is not an issue about Mr. Carberry. His role was only to have brought the matter into daylight. It is not even a question of unprofessional behavior by delinquent members (their behavior is still open to address by the PPFA under its Code of Ethics.) The real issue goes far beyond.
This should be regarded as being a very serious matter because it is about a breach in the fundamental operating philosophy of the PPFA. The fundamental issue is willful neglect by the governing body, the PPFA. It is an issue of corporate unwillingness to practice what it preaches. It is about corporate mores and ethics and corporate reluctance to provide for the welfare of all its members as stated in its own Statement of Mission.
Over the years the PPFA has put forth much effort striving to raise its esteem in the eyes of potential members and of the market place. If the PPFA continues to ignore this matter in the hopes that it will simply go away history shows that the PPFA will likely be the author of its own loss of integrity. Doubtlessly members will continue to lose faith in the PPFA because the PPFA will have amply demonstrated that ordinary members are subject to different rules than a few special members who are allowed to operate outside of the association's rules. Fractionation, a divided house, and consequent decline in member support will surely result. Those who in the past, and in the present, worked hard toward establishing the PPFA's credibility will have been betrayed.
Marketers teach that consumers measure an industry's attractiveness by looking at that industry's integrity. A measure of an industry's integrity is its ethics. The PPFA needs to look within its own walls to re-assess its internal ethics track record. It is time for the PPFA to remove the blinders.
This breaching of fundamentals may be a clear indicator of what PPFA members may expect in the future. Who will be next? New framers? Left-handed framers? Framers who wear glasses? Framers who operate out of their homes?
The PPFA preaches that reference to "home-based" framers is offensive but what positive steps has the PPFA taken beyond mumbling a few comforting words and coining a few alternative phrases to replace the term "home-based?" What has the PPFA actually done to help these members? Has the PPFA helped home-based members re-establish supplier connections? The answer seems to be "no." Should home-based framers re-assess their role within the PPFA because the PPFA also may not be sincere in protecting home-based member interests? Until the PPFA puts its own house in order is there reason why anyone should believe what the PPFA says?
All members of the PPFA are supposed to be treated with dignity and respect. The PPFA declares that this must be. To date the PPFA has failed Mr. Carberry and every other member who believed that the PPFA was sincere in maintaining dignified professional conduct. The onus to mend fences is heavily in the PPFA's court. The PPFA's integrity is very much at stake.
Mr. Carberry I thank you for having the intestinal fortitude to hold the PPFA accountable. Thank you for being patient with the PPFA. In doing so you have revealed a fundamental but repairable weakness in the PPFA's structure. The PPFA has been fairly warned that failure to implement just redress will inevitably result in continued erosion of morale. If the PPFA continues to insist on excusing its own breach of its own rules, it will end up being just another lame duck.
Under those circumstances I would support an alternative framers' association not only for Canada but also for the U.S.

Yours sincerely

Arno Jan Riise, B.Th., PEng., M.F.A., PhD.

[This message has been edited by Arno Jan Riise (edited November 03, 2000).]
 
I'm kind of new to The Grumble and don't really know what this is all about. What I do know is that Orton's posts are astute and enlightening, and I hope he continues to post on The Grumble.
 
Interesting comments. What would be more interesting - is if Mr. Carberry could put all of this in "plain language" so this "laity" could understand. Good points, but zzzzzzzzz.
Yolanda
 
I've always enjoyed Orton's post. Very few relate, but all are informative and I read everyone of them. Like most education, I may never use it but I always want it. Like others, I'm intrigued and want to hear the rest of the story. It sounds like a hoot abd confirms my feelings about the establishment elite referred to by Arno. I hope I have friends that will rally to my support like this one. A rare gift, indeed
 
Ive never joined the P.P.F.A and now I know I never will. I've been in the industry for thirty five years,I hope I can make it as long as Mr. Van Riise. I enjoyed his letter and I especially enjoyed his backing of Orton. I've taken a shot at Orton over canvas stretching. He handled it with dignity and proffesionalism, He has my respect as does Mr. Van Riise. I do not pretend to even be near the level of framing compitence as these two gentelmen and today I learned that.
Yolanda, you should be ashamed of yourself, you just insulted one of the greats in our industry.
John
 
Dr. Riise, I agree with everything that yuo have said. My humble shop is about an hour away from Orton's but I have never met him. He has given me more help for free than the PPFA could ever possible give me over a lifetime. I have never joined the PPFA because the membership fee is out of line for what you get in return.
The PPFA is preoccupied with their in-group which in turn is more interested in their own inflated ego's than they are in helping out the humble framer. They are intimidated by anyone else who knows a little about framing and does not have to kowtow to them.
I am disappointed in John Ranes being party to the PPFA forum incident. Hr may be a good framer but his beviour towards Orton cost him points in my book. What he and the others did requires a public apology. Shame!

[This message has been edited by Quentin (edited November 04, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Quentin (edited November 04, 2000).]

P.S. I would support a CPFG.

[This message has been edited by Quentin (edited November 04, 2000).]
 
I had no idea that there were other framers who shared my experiences with the PPFA. I am glad also that there are other framers in my area who seem to be on the same wavelength. The framing shops in town are not friendly towards me because I operate out of my home. I feel that they think that I am stealing customers from them. They are very territorial. On the contrary I have had wonderful support from Orton who often went well out of his way to help me out when I was just starting up.
I am not surprised to be reading negative comments about the PPFA. I too experienced undesirable vibs from dealing with them. All they wanted was my money. I was in the middle of filling out a membership enquiry at the Toronto show when I sensed a distinct change in attitude towards me when I said I ran the business out of my home. I can't put my finger on it, but intuition told me that I should think about this for a while before committing my money. After taking a serious look at what they offered, I decided not to join and I am glad I did. They made me feel like a second class citizen.
I disagree with their handling of the issue regarding the PPFA forum. The PPFA is supposed to be professional but I guess they redefined what professional means.
I am interested in a Canadian association and I don't care whether it is a big one or a small one as long as its members are treated with mutual respect. Those who do not follow the rules should be asked to leave.
I am sorry that this happened to Orton. He's A-OK in my books.
 
I find it necessary to address some of the comments and information that Dr. Arno Jan Riise made in starting this topic.

First of all, let me state that the following remarks are mine alone.

Where did this come from?

Part of your post refers to a thread that took place on the Online Exchange over 16 months ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>After having read some current letters I feel compelled to opinionate and perhaps stimulate some constructive thoughts....
The tone of the current CPFG-PPFA discussion is symptomatic of history repeating itself.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where is this discussion. I have looked at all of the grumble topics for the past 30 days and do not find such a discussion

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If I correctly understand what I have been reading in the forums the PPFA was reluctant to apply its own rules concerning ethics and behavior.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're understanding of the situation is incorrect.

The Online Exchange is not owned or controlled by the PPFA. I created and I alone operate the Online Exchange. They do not control the list in any way.

I do not moderate the Online Exchange. I will not prevent anyone from posting except in the case of physical threats, foul language. That I have done in the past only once. I have asked people to stop and think before they make further posts. This situation included. A heated exchange of difference of opinion is not a violation of the PPFA Code of Ethics.

As mailing list 'Flame Wars' go, this was a non-event.

At the time, I read and re-read the posts to see what the fuss was all about. And I have now wasted a day reading and re-reading the posts and still do not get it.

Mr. Carberry had and has his own opinion, and others disagree and felt that his explanations did not prove out his theory in practical application. In fact a couple of posts refer to research done by FACTS on the matter.

Personally, my experiments on the topic also go against what Mr. Carberry was saying happens. Would not be the first time that different experiments have produced different results, and will not be the last.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Mr. Carberry cannot be faulted for objecting to that double standard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What double standard is this? Was he chastised for his posts?

I have read and re-read the posts and to this day, find nothing but a difference of opinion. Period. There was no 'name calling' other than perhaps Mr. Carberry's comment that either you took his information to be correct or you were a skeptic.

A great deal of what goes on the Online Exchange involves differences of opinion. Participation by conservators on the Online Exchange is a regular part of that discussion. And you as a conservation professional should know and acknowledge that the same thing goes on in your profession. That is all a part of the learning experience and without it, there would be no advances in overall knowledge.

I am baffled by your perspective on the thread. If fact, John Ranes whom you name as one of the 'delinquents' made only one post in the whole thread and there is nothing in that post that is the slightest bit unprofessional. He just disagrees with Mr. Carberry.

I will post a compilation of the thread to my web site and you are free to see exactly what was said by all.

http://www.customframer.com/thread.txt

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Mr. Carberry paid his membership fee in good faith but has the PPFA acted in good faith?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fact is that at the time this occurred, Mr. Carberry was no longer a member of PPFA, having made the business decision to not renew his membership. I, as a routine practice, give Online Exchange subscribers a couple of weeks to renew. If I had removed Mr. Carberry from the Online Exchange when his membership lapsed, this matter would have never happened.

Merrill E. Grayson, CPF
Picture Perfect of Nora Corners
Indianapolis, IN 46240
merrill@customframer.com
 
JRB: I agree with you 100% "I've never joined the P.P.F.A and now I know I never will."
 
This doesn't add up. What's going on? I just read the whole thread of messages on Mr. Grayson's web site and did not find *anything* that could be reasonably considered offensive, unprofessional, scandalous or otherwise worthy of apology in any direction.

Mr. Riise and Mr. Carberry:
If the thread on Mr. Grayson's web site is the one in question, please let us know exactly what you found offensive about it. And if it's the wrong thread, please enlighten us further.

Grumblers at Large,
Whether the thread posted on Mr. Grayson's web site is the one in question or not, it is typical of the communication on PPFA's Hitchhiker forum. There's disagreement in it, but the entire discussion is fair, reasonable, considerate and respectful to all concerned.

I wish that could be said for this thread.

------------------
Jim Miller, CPFcm; GAFP Committee Member
 
After digesting both threads and letter, I must admit I'm a little puzzled. I certainly can see disagreement and differences of opinions (sometimes brusquely) presented, but, after reading the original post, I had expected to find personal, vilifying attacks in the offending thread and failed to do so. The closest I really saw was an allusion to "despite your eloquence, etc.", but am not sure if this is one of the offending phrases or not. I would certainly hope that differences in opinions are allowed. Good engineering and basic physics are one thing; saying that a cat can only be skint one way is another. I'm not sure I ever saw an apples-to-apples discussion, but I skimmed through it quickly; making generalizations about how mouldings react under stress is tenuous, at best. What if pilot holes aren't drilled with the screws which are used, or the type of wood has a different resistance to a torquing moment compared to another?

I spent some time working overseas and discovered that cultural differences were sometimes more to contribute to misunderstandings that I had originally accounted for. Is this phenomenom perhaps a contributor to this particular understanding? Lots of folks, for instance, make the mistake of thinking that Canada is just part of the United States of North America and that usually goes over like a you-know-what in a punch bowl with my Canadian in-laws.

I do remember that what was to me perhaps normal disagreement was a little too "emotive" or rough-n-tumble for someone more schooled in the genteel way than me. I learned to tread much more lightly, basically. Whether that's relevant or not in this particular case, I certainly wouldn't know.

I do know that I value the input of more senior and successful framers than me, and that includes most of you. You all have been successful in various ways, whether it has been in business or technical issues, and I thank you all for continuing to have input into this forum and enriching the industry as you do. But PLEASE don't always agree on everything; that's a scary Orwellian thought and I'm not in the mood for that with elections this close.
 
Originally posted by po' framer:
[...I had expected to find personal, vilifying attacks in the offending thread and failed to do so...]

Anyone who reads Mr. Riise's piece is sure to expect the same, and it was obviously intended that way.

[...I would certainly hope that differences in opinions are allowed.]

That appears to be the real issue, doesn't it? Or is it something else?

[...But PLEASE don't always agree on everything; that's a scary Orwellian thought...]

Not much danger of *that* happening
rolleyes.gif


But our differences should be presented respectfully and honestly, without pretenses, misleading commentary, or condemnation.


------------------
Jim Miller, CPFcm; GAFP Committee Member
 
We should not be allowed to digress from the observation made by Dr. Riise: A ... This is not an issue about Mr. Carberry... It is not even a question of unprofessional behavior by delinquent members ... The real issue ... should be regarded as being a very serious matter because it is about a breach in the fundamental operating philosophy of the PPFA. The fundamental issue is willful neglect by the governing body, the PPFA. It is an issue of corporate unwillingness to practice what it preaches. It is about corporate mores and ethics and corporate reluctance to provide for the welfare of all its members as stated in its own Statement of Mission.

I have seriously considered all of the letters that have been registered in this thread. I was impressed by Mr. Grayson=s contribution of the chronology of the notorious PPFA Online Exchange thread which has been instrumental in this controversy. After reading, and yes, re-reading, I went back to my old files to re-read again. I cannot help but agree with Dr. Riise.

The matter IS about questionable ethics, credibility and integrity, and is getting more serious by the moment. I want to address the points and questions raised by Mr. Grayson.

Mr. Grayson=s Q: “Where did this come from? . . . Where is this discussion?”

Dr. Riise=s letter seems to have been a response to open discussions taking place in the HBFN. Dialogue there referred to controversy in the PPFA Exchange and in the Grumble. There was direct communication in the HBFN from Mr. Carberry to the PPFA=s Mr. Grand concerning this matter, although I am not aware of any response to Mr. Carberry from Mr. Grand.

Mr. Grayson=s comment: “You're [sic][Dr. Riise=s] understanding of the situation is incorrect.” [made in response to Dr.Riise=s : A...the PPFA was reluctant to apply its own rules concerning ethics and behavior.”]

I believe that Mr. Grayson is incorrect. According to the current discussion the PPFA was repeatedly made aware of a Code of Ethics contravention, was asked to act upon it, but to date has taken no action.

Mr. Grayson, comment & Q: “You're [sic][Dr. Riise=s] understanding of the situation is incorrect. The Online Exchange is not owned or controlled by the PPFA. I created and I alone operate the Online Exchange. They do not control the list in any way.”

Mr. Grayson=s ownership of The Online Exchange aside, the exchange is advertised and promoted as the PPFA Online Exchange. The PPFA carries direct links to it from its own website. It appears that the two entities are intertwined. Non-PPFA members are not allowed to access the PPFA Online Exchange. Ownership notwithstanding, since the PPFA Online Exchange is officially sanctioned by the PPFA, it becomes an inherent PPFA element. Therefore the PPFA=s Code of Ethics, governing member behaviour A... in all forms of professional conduct@ unquestionably DOES apply to the PPFA Online Exchange. Mr. Grayson may have powers controlling the PPFA Online Exchange, but those powers do not extend to the controlling of PPFA policy.

Mr. Grayson=s comment: "As mailing list 'Flame Wars' go, this was a non﷓event."

If the PPFA Online Exchange is to be regarded merely as an internet mailing list where >Flame Wars= are routine, the first "P" in PPFA becomes untrue, and members who seek a professional relationship should look elsewhere.

Mr. Grayson=s comment: " ... And I have now wasted a day reading and re﷓reading ... and still do not get it."

I do not understand why Mr. Grayson=s statement is relevant. I too have spent some hours having mulled over this matter since Friday, today is Monday. So what? No one forced me to do this. I do not regard my time as "wasted." I certainly won=t go about whining and complaining about it. Rather, I regard it as being an investment with direct positive effects on my framing business. Mr. Grayson=s comment seems to be a solicitation for sympathy.

Mr. Grayson=s comment: "Mr. Carberry had and has his own opinion, and others disagree and felt that his explanations did not prove out his theory in practical application."

I am a civil engineer and a conservator. Mr. Carberry was not dealing in theory. Mr. Carberry was dealing with proven engineering principles. As cited in Mr. Carberry=s postings, his research results closely paralleled those of Mr. George Lincoln, whose research seems to have been accepted without question. Mr. Carberry and Mr. Lincoln seem to be advocating the same engineering principles. Mr. Carberry is absolutely correct.

Mr. Grayson=s comment & questions: "What double standard is this? ..."

Dr Riise is undoubtedly referring to what is apparent. A question of unethical behaviour by prominent PPFA members is not being addressed by the PPFA. He is not referring to the postings on the PPFA Online Exchange.

Mr.Grayson=s comment: "There was no 'name calling' other than perhaps Mr. Carberry's comment that either you took his information to be correct or you were a skeptic."

Mr. Grayson=s paraphrase is wrong. Mr. Carberry=s June 7 1999 11:28:52 posting, last line: "Whether you choose to use the knowledge offered, or choose to remain a skeptic and not use it, is up to you." Mr. Grayson=s paraphrase infers that Mr. Carberry is name-calling readers who do not accept his information. This is not at all what is stated by Mr. Carberry. Mr. Carberry is saying that the reader has an option of accepting the information or rejecting the information. In the context of the thread history, Mr. Carberry=s statement is appropriate. Mr. Grayson is trying to make an issue out of his own misinterpretation.

Mr. Grayson=s comments: "A great deal of what goes on the Online Exchange involves differences of opinion. . . And you [Dr. Riise] as a conservation professional should know and acknowledge that the same thing goes on in your profession. That is all a part of the learning experience and without it, there would be no advances in overall knowledge."

The objection is not about differences of opinion and never has been. I think "po=framer" came very close to the mark with his point concerning cultural response [Grumble November 5]. What is so distasteful in the context of this discussion, is the disgusting manner in which purported differences of opinion were publicly stated by the offending members.

I belong to an association of professional engineers, I also belong to a conservators= association. Differing opinions and debate are encouraged in both associations and are healthy. Sometimes exchanges are indeed heated, BUT they are in-house, they are not held in public. Public display of professional misbehaviour is dealt with severely. Public misbehaviour such as exhibited in the PPFA Online Exchange would not be tolerated for one second in any truly professional association. Internet dialogue can be kept in-house by direct e-mail: there is no need to go public with it. What transpired in the PPFA Online Exchange was as public as one could make it.

For scholars like Mr. Carberry and Dr. Riise who undoubtedly maintain professional memberships, behaviour such as exhibited in the PPFA Online Exchange is unthinkable. Why? - because it was public, it was not done in private among peers. Where I live, teachers belonging to respective professional associations in which ANY public condemnation, discourtesy, rudeness, or unprofessional behaviour, one teacher to another, faces immediate investigation and extremely serious reprimand. Most professional associations that I am aware of will not tolerate public misbehaviour, rudeness, and discourtesy. I believe that I am not the only respondent to have said this.

Mr. Grayson=s comment: "I am baffled by your [Dr. Riise=s] perspective on the thread. If [sic] fact, John Ranes whom you name as one of the 'delinquents' made only one post in the whole thread and there is nothing in that post that is the slightest bit unprofessional. He just disagrees with Mr. Carberry."

Mr. Ranes, June 2 1999 10:55:37: "Sorry Orton ... I don=t buy this either ..." Mr. Ranes was supporting Mr. Frederick. Established engineering principles show that Mr. Frederick was incorrect in assuming that load was increased on the side rails because the wires were anchored to the bottom.

Out of context, Mr. Ranes= statements may seem to be harmless. In context, it is easy to understand why they are offensive. Mr. Carberry was talking about increasing the number of anchoring points in order to share load (an engineeringly proven principle) which after Mr. Fredericks erred, Mr. Ranes erroneously applied to "strengthening the mitred corners." Mr. Ranes went on to discuss the hanger angle of the wire, wire stress, pre-drilling holes, screw sizes, and alternative commercially available products -all of which was irrelevant to the topic. Mr. Ranes spoke condescendingly with some sort of assumed authority e.g. "In these situations . . . I would opt for Strap (sometimes called Mirror) Hangers, Wall Buddies, Hook Ups, or a >French Cleat." e.g. "If you do use Refined Hangers and wire of some sort, by this I mean D-rings, AMS hangers, Flangers, the key is to PRE DRILL [sic], especially for hardwoods. This is where the problems occur for most framers regardless of what size and length screw is used" - all of which was irrelevant to Mr. Carberry=s posting. Mr. Ranes did not "just disagree," he just did not know what he was talking about.

Mr. Grayson=s comment: "The fact is that at the time this occurred, Mr. Carberry was no longer a member of PPFA, having made the business decision to not renew his membership. I, as a routine practice, give Online Exchange subscribers a couple of weeks to renew. If I had removed Mr. Carberry from the Online Exchange when his membership lapsed, this matter would have never happened."

Logic suggests that Mr. Carberry did not renew BECAUSE of the way this matter was mis-handled by the PPFA. Mr. Grayson assumes to know for certain that Mr. Carberry did not intend to renew his PPFA membership before June 7, the date of Mr. Carberry=s last posting. Mr. Grayson infers that Mr. Carberry is to be faulted because he did not withdraw from the PPFA soon enough. It is an interesting but fanciful notion.

Throughout the span of the PPFA Online Exchange discussion, and continuing into the present, the offending members have tried to discredit Mr. Carberry. He was repeatedly baited but has never stooped to the level of the offenders. Of all parties concerned, he has been the most honest and the most respectful. He has exhibited unbelievable patience and good manners under extremely adverse conditions.

The offenders in the PPFA Online Exchange tried to put Mr. Carberry=s credibility in doubt, by direct assault. They exhibited hostility. They continually pursued irrelevant or repetitive questioning: they feigned inability to understand, while all around them others understood the principles involved. They stuck together. All wanted to express how erudite they were. Their collective action mocked Mr. Caberry.

They also influenced at least one other member to follow suit. Member J. Miller opened his June 3 submission by declaring support for Mr. Frederick but advocated Mr. Carberry=s methodology in his next paragraph. He recommended Mr. Lincoln=s research (which parallels Mr. Carberry=s results) in his June 4 posting. Mr. Miller supported Mr. Grayson in his November 4 Grumble post and declared the discussion in the PPFA Online Exchange to be fair and reasonable, but condemned the Grumble thread. His November 5 thread asked that respondents present their opinions "... respectfully and honestly, without pretences, misleading commentary, or condemnation." It is a nice thought, but apparently has not been followed by those who seem to be advocating it.

It is my opinion that the PPFA members in question have tried to use their influence and stature within the PPFA to shield their unprofessional behaviour. They have tried to sway opinion in their favour, have not been respectful, honest, and without pretence, but have condemned and have acted in a misleading fashion.

I feel that Mr. Grayson has been guilty of pursuing the same tactics as the other offending parties. I note that Messrs Ranes, Fredericks, Fremstad, Miller and Grayson are all prominent PPFA members. I suggest that the double standard issue truly may be relevant.

I find Mr. Grayson=s tone to be as offensive as it is condescending. I do not think that Dr. Riise needs to be lectured on the need for opposing opinions. I do not think the concept of debate is lost on Dr. Riise. I find Mr. Grayson=s posting to be offensive because he has supported his colleagues by attempting to put down Mr. Carberry e.g. misleading paraphrasing, the membership discussion, etc. Mr. Grayson has thinly disguised his dislike for Mr. Carberry even though there appears to have been no dialogue between them.

Mr. Grayson would have us believe that he is being an honest broker by providing the readership with a compilation of the discussion so that the readership are "... free to see exactly what was said by all." Mr. Grayson has misled us.

I reviewed my old files and discovered that a PPFA Online Exchange posting was omitted in Mr. Grayson=s "compilation." It is dated June 6 1999 14:19:11 and fits in right between Mr. Fremstad=s "...eloquent ramblings" jab at Mr. Carberry, and Mr. Carberry=s final posting on June 7. Since Mr. Grayson feels that he is wasting his time on fundamental issues that significantly affect the PPFA, I will save him the time and post the missing letter for him.

﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓ 5 ﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓﷓
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 14:19:11 ﷓0600
From: Derek and Christine Vandeberg <frameref@digisys.net>
Subject: Losing the focus

Hitchhikers ﷓﷓
We have some real concerns about this information exchange. Not too
long ago, this forum was a brilliant way to network with other framers, and to learn valuable information from actual framing techniques to sources for all manner of things. Lately, both Christine and I feel that we have as a group regressed to omething far less than valuable. This is evidenced by the large number of recent postings that appear to be nothing more than thinly veiled sneers of contempt at others'
offerings. A few postings have fallen just short of name calling, something that we believe is wholly inappropriate in a forum like this. This isn't a competition to see who can get the last word on a given
subject, nor is it a requirement that someone must always be "right". We are all professional framers here, and Christine and I think that all of us can benefit from the information that makes its way onto this
exchange. However, I for one do not have time to read piles of postings that essentially repeat endlessly, "I am right and you are wrong." Remember what Paul Storch once said about conservators? Something like ask three people and you'll get four different answers? Same thing
applies here, folks.

I would be very surprised if Christine and I were the only ones who felt this way. Think about the number of people who replied to postings at least once each week, and then think about which of these names you haven't seen lately. Could this perhaps be symptomatic of others' discontent? At one point, several people touted this exchange as one of the greatest benefits to PPFA membership. It still can be, if we all choose to make it so.

Christine and I have absolutely no desire to start another public debate on an unnecessary issue. We are simply asking that we all think about tone, either implied or intentional, before firing off a post to
the group. If you feel that our concerns are unwarranted, or if you feel that this posting is inappropriate, please inform us of this privately, and we will withdraw from participation in this list.

Respectfully,
Derek and Christine Vandeberg
Frame of Reference, Bigfork, MT
mailto:frameref@digisys.net

I suggest that this letter speaks for itself.

I also agree that there seems to be an "in-group" within the PPFA and I believe that its presence is harmful to the PPFA. I believe that the PPFA needs to examine its role in this issue as prescribed by its own Code of Ethics. I believe that the offending members have wronged Mr. Carberry. I believe that the PPFA has wronged Mr. Carberry. If the PPFA wants to BE professional, it should at least try to live up to its name. I believe that the PPFA owes Mr. Carberry an apology, as do the offenders.

Under these conditions, I cannot support the PPFA. I believe that the PPFA has a major credibility problem. Dr. Riise is absolutely correct. Mr. Carberry is absolutely correct.

Sincerely
Judy Hawkins BSc.Eng., M.F.A.

[This message has been edited by Judy Hawkins (edited November 06, 2000).]
 
And to think this all started with how to hang a 10lb picture. The saddest part of this whole mess is the hurt feelings and the non-deference of thoise people that really are trained and accomplished. Why do we attack those people are truly competent? Even worse, is the underlying problem with the PPfa
 
I feel compelled to point out that the message Ms. Hawkins quoted was written in June of 1999! For those of you unfamiliar with the thread on the Hitchhikers, I posted it (to Mr. Grayson's dismay) in an attempt to get the group to move on to more constructive matters. We had digressed from solving problems to dissecting the minutia of tone and intent in others' postings. It was a plea to return to business as usual on the Hitchhikers, not a criticism of the PPFA or its merit as Ms. Hawkins would have you believe. In a very general sense, the Hitchhikers list is filled with content on a daily basis, and the "flames" and "pissing matches" are really inconsequential.

At one time, I was exchanging e-mails with Orton regarding his participation in the Hitchhikers. Certainly, some individuals do behave inappropriately, although not to the extent that some would have you believe. What everyone seems to forget is that in lists of this type, the Grumble and the Hitchhikers included, there is a vast diversity in the participants. Some are exemplary framers, while others are aspiring to merely be decent. Some have their proverbial fingers on the pulse of the Electronic Age, while others can barely turn on the beige box to get their e-mails. Some are certainly lacking in what most would consider an appropriate level of manners, but most simply don't understand that tone and sarcasm don't translate to e-mail. I expect that 80% of those posts interpreted as "attacks" are simply not thought through by the sender.

The real substance in this thread -- the concept of the CPFG -- sounds like good stuff. There's no question that the PPFA has not done an exemplary job for Canadian framers, although they're aware of that and are trying to change it. As for the rest of it, individual framers are certainly entitled to their opinions about the PPFA. I'm certainly not an insider, and yet I believe that the organization has done a phenomenal amount of good for the framing industry, and for individual framers, despite their limited resources. It's certainly not a perfect concept, but I think I'm better off with it than without. I stand behind my statement that the Hitchhikers is more than worth the membership dues. While other groups exist, the Hithhikers is, IMHO, the most consistently full of useful information. While a great sense of camraderie obviously exists in the Grumble, I confess that I find it to be just that -- a Grumble. I come here when I'm feeling discontented, not when I need advice. Flame away.

Derek Vandeberg CPF
Frame of Reference, Bigfork, Montana
mailto:frameref@digisys.net
 
Originally posted by Judy Hawkins:
"...This is not an issue about Mr. Carberry... It is not even a question of unprofessional behavior by delinquent members ... The real issue ...The fundamental issue is willful neglect by the governing body, the PPFA..."

For all the years I've been a member, I've never considered PPFA to be a "governing body". I perceive it as a trade association to provide products and services to its members. I do not perceive it to be an enforcement agency of any kind.

"...I was impressed by Mr. Grayson's contribution of..the notorious PPFA Online Exchange thread which has been instrumental in this controversy...The matter IS about questionable ethics, credibility and integrity..."

I agree that the matter IS about questionable ethics, credibility and integrity. But I do not see how PPFA is an offender here.

"(Mr. Riise was referring to)...open discussions taking place in the HBFN. Dialogue there referred to controversy in the PPFA Exchange and in the Grumble. There was direct communication in the HBFN from Mr. Carberry to the PPFA=s Mr. Grand concerning this matter, although I am not aware of any response to Mr. Carberry from Mr. Grand..."

In reviewing all of the posts to HBFN on this topic, I found no dialogue about controversy in forums. The discussion there was about re-starting PPFA or CPFG, with opinions considerately expressed for both groups. For your easy reference, HBFN posts 1392, 1399, and 1404, all from Mr. Grand, took place after Mr. Carberry's "personal response to Mr. Grand", post 1390. It appears Mr. Grand is anxious to cooperate with Canadian framers in rejuvinating Canadian PPFA activities.

"...According to the current discussion the PPFA was repeatedly made aware of a Code of Ethics contravention, was asked to act upon it, but to date has taken no action..."

Perhaps PPFA, like many of us, could not find offense in the Notorious Thread. In any case punitive action, if PPFA were able to administer it, should not be considered lightly, and probably would not be considered for unsubstantiated complaints from friends of disgruntled former members nearly a year and a half after the fact.

"...If the PPFA Online Exchange is to be regarded merely as an internet mailing list where >Flame Wars= are routine, the first "P" in PPFA becomes untrue..."

But "flame wars" are not routine on the PPFA forum. Quite the contrary, it has the most professional content of all the forums I monitor. This thread, for example, is much more a "flame war" than the Notorious Thread was.

"...A question of unethical behaviour by prominent PPFA members is not being addressed by the PPFA..."

Please describe -- in detail, for those of us less astute -- the elusive "unethical behavior" by PPFA members.

"...He is not referring to the postings on the PPFA Online Exchange..."

I'm confused. If not for the Notorious Thread, where Mr. Carberry was said to have been offended, what would be the problem?

"...The objection is not about differences of opinion and never has been...What is so distasteful in the context of this discussion, is the disgusting manner in which purported differences of opinion were publicly stated by the offending members..."

There you go again. Please cite details of the "disgusting manner" you believe was in the Notorious Thread.

"...Internet dialogue can be kept in-house by direct e-mail: there is no need to go public with it. What transpired in the PPFA Online Exchange was as public as one could make it..."

The PPFA forum is not public in any way. Access to all parts of it is restricted to members, who are considered to be peers, and treat one another as such. On the other hand this forum, with its open registration, is more the public forum. And here we are by your choice.

"...behaviour such as exhibited in the PPFA Online Exchange is unthinkable. Why? - because it was public, it was not done in private among peers. Where I live, teachers belonging to respective professional associations in which ANY public condemnation, discourtesy, rudeness, or unprofessional behaviour, one teacher to another, faces immediate investigation and extremely serious reprimand..."

Again, the PPFA forum is not public in any way, but this one is. Should anyone in this vitriolic thread be expecting a reprimand for their behavior?

"...Most professional associations that I am aware of will not tolerate public misbehaviour, rudeness, and discourtesy..."

Are you a PPFA member? If so, should you be reprimanded for demeaning the association in public? I think not. You are free to express you opinion, as are all the rest of us.

"...Mr. Ranes was supporting Mr. Frederick. Established engineering principles show that Mr. Frederick was incorrect in assuming that load was increased on the side rails because the wires were anchored to the bottom...Mr. Ranes= statements may seem to be harmless. In context, it is easy to understand why they are offensive."

But the issue isn't the disagreement, right? I don't find the Notorious Thread is offensive in any context.

"...Mr. Ranes erroneously applied to "strengthening the mitred corners." Mr. Ranes went on to discuss the hanger angle of the wire, wire stress...-all of which was irrelevant to the topic...Mr. Ranes spoke condescendingly with some sort of assumed authority e.g. "In these situations . . .Mr. Ranes did not "just disagree," he just did not know what he was talking about..."

So, it's not the disagreement -- It's the accumulation of Mr. Ranes' other offenses? I hope that adding irrelevent input to a discussion, speaking with assumed authority, and being wrong are not punishable offenses.

Sorry, but I still don't see how PPFA has been neglegent in any way.

"...Throughout the span of the PPFA Online Exchange discussion, and continuing into the present, the offending members have tried to discredit Mr. Carberry..."

That has not been demonstrated here, so far. Most of us have the utmost respect for Mr. Carberry's opinions, generally. However, I would reserve the right to disagree with him, or even to be mistaken.

"...The offenders in the PPFA Online Exchange tried to put Mr. Carberry=s credibility in doubt, by direct assault. They exhibited hostility. They continually pursued irrelevant or repetitive questioning: they feigned inability to understand, while all around them others understood the principles involved..."

But why would the "offenders" want to do any of that? I know all three of those men to be talented framers of long experience. They are all significant and generous contributors to the interests of fellow framers, PPFA, and the industry in general. Why have we not heard of other such aggressive behavior from them?

"... (Miller's) November 5 thread asked that respondents present their opinions "... respectfully and honestly, without pretences, misleading commentary, or condemnation."

And I hereby repeat that appeal. I suggest all participants read the HBFN thread, the Notorious Thread, and all of the above at least once. It is important for each of us to make informed decisions about supporting any group or organization.

Given the lengthy and negative opinions of PPFA by Mr. Riise and Ms. Hawkins, this may seem odd coming from a PPFA member, but it needs to be said:
Please do not follow anyone blindly.



------------------
Jim Miller, CPFcm; GAFP Committee Member
 
To all parties, may I ask "Please let it go" There is no further good coming from this. A personal aside to Framer"Wholeheartedly, I concur"
 
All other points aside .... for those framers in Canada, the CPFG is unfortunately on hiatus. The group was formed four or five years ago (if my memory is correct) and worked very hard at trying to create an effective association for the Canadian framer. It is my understanding that the association's board decided to put things on hold earlier this year to re-evaluate the association.
Is there anyone out there, who was a member or on the board who can confirm what is going on with the CPFG?
 
I have been reading this subject in the Grumble and in the Home Based Farmers Network and it is very interesting. Hearing the PPFA members talk makes me angry because they think they know it all and everyone else is stupid. I used to belong to the PPFA but I do not anymore because of two reasons. Firstly I paid out what I think is a lot of money and received nothing back. The only thing I got out of it was the Hitchikers Exchange and it was the only reason I kept up my membership. After a while I noticed that it was the same old thing over again. Someone asks a question. Someone else would answer and then two or three members would jump right in and take over the discussion just like the schoolyard bullies. This happened over and over again. If you didn't agree with everything the bullies said, they talked down to you like you were dirt. They were always right, and you were always supposed to tell them how good they were, and how much you owed them, thank you, thank you, thank you. If somebody new answered they were put down. I got sick of it. The other reason I quit was because the PPFA really didn't care about me because I am not in the United States. They took my money but when I asked for some help I was given phone numbers of framing shops run by other PPFA members who had no idea what I was talking about. I was a member of the CPFG and am glad they are starting up again.
The PPFA members who answered in the Grumble behave like they and their friends do in the old Hitchikers forum. IT IS NOT THE FRIENDLY PLACE THAT J.MILLER SAYS IT IS. They tell you it is but it is not. If you don’t agree with everything they say you are treated badly. They speak down to you, they are always right and we are just supposed to line up and agree with them. I read the PPFA letters and I read the letters from A.Riise and J.Hawkins and the others. They are right. The bullies run the Hitchikers and they run the PPFA. M.Grayson is dishonest by purposely leaving out an important letter in his argument. J. Miller goes on and on about nothing putting everyone else down except his friends who are just as bad as he is. D.Vandeburg is the only PPFA person who made any sense. If you don't want to listen to anyone else why don't you start listening to what he is saying?
J.Miller and M. Grayson why are you so mad at Orton Carberry? He didn't say or didn't do anything to you. He didn't even say your names either in the HBFN or in here. J.Miller he even helped you out by giving you some information in the Grumble. He is polite. You are not, you are rude and you are know-it-alls with your noses in the air. That is why I will never be a PPFA member again. If the PPFA is run by people like you it is in big trouble.

Ashley Willsen
Country Framing Shoppe
New Lowell, Ontario, Canada
 
While I understand Bob Carter's wish to let this go, with regard to the remarks made about me personally, I feel it necessary to make some rebuttal.

Again, these remarks are mine alone.

It has been stated that I have a dislike for and showed thinly veiled hostility towards Mr. Carberry.

Wrong. I have no dislike for him at all and find his knowledge of our business to be very strong, and I enjoy his postings here on the Grumble and as well did on the Online Exchange.

My tone has been called offensive and condescending. I have been called rude and a know-it all.

I have never meant to be offensive or condescending. My intention in my earlier posts were to correct what I felt to be incorrect information posted in this thread's original post and to provide the Online Exchange thread for others to read rather than be told what was said.

I have been called &quot;dishonest&quot; and that I &quot;misled&quot; for not including a post made by Derek Vandenberg.

The content that I included were the direct parts of the thread that related to the question of whether or not there was a violation of the &quot;Code of Ethics&quot; by members of the PPFA. The post by Derek and further responses to that message were not part of the discussion but were a result of it.

I on the other hand should be flattered that someone thinks that I am prominent in the PPFA. Folks, the PPFA is a Trade Organization that has a small staff and depends on the participation of volenter members to further our industry. Yes I provide the Online Exchange for the benefit of the PPFA's members and am the Chair of the Certification board, but I certaintly do not run the PPFA.

All of this only serves to show that one problem with communication by e-mail is that it is very easy to misinterpret intent in an individual message. Those that think that I intended any harm or offense towards anyone, do not know me at all and are absolutely wrong about my intentions.


Merrill E Grayson, CPF
Picture Perfect of Nora Corners
Indianapolis, IN
<a href=&quot;mailto:merrill@customframer.com&quot;>merrill@customframer.com</A>



[This message has been edited by MerrillGraysonCPF (edited November 08, 2000).]
 
Ashley Willsen, where is the website of the "Home Based Farmers Network"? Thanks.
 
In regards to the CPFG, they are seriously trying to get it back together. We have talked with the man who was trying to put it together originally, he is a sales rep in our area, and is working hard at trying to get it back together.
 
Can't say that I know what the ruckus is all about, but in any case, keep up the good work Orton. I've always found your posts interesting, thorough, and positive.
As far as the American bias of the PPFA goes, so what. Probably 95%+ of their membership is American and that's who they try to best serve. In a way not being an American is like not being right handed. I don't get worked up when I go into a store and all they have is right handed scissors and I don't fault them for it, but I will look for some place that does if they can't or won't get them for me. I'm left handed and a Canuck and figure 2 out of 3 is pretty good.
 
Ashley Willison wrote:
"...J.Miller and M. Grayson why are you so mad at Orton Carberry? He didn't say or didn't do anything to you. He didn't even say your names either in the HBFN or in here..."

Me, angry with Orton carberry? Not so; I have no reason to be angry with him. I have always respected his knowledge, and his contributions to framers in general. I have never argued with him, called him names, or referred to him as being anything other than a polished professional. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?

In another Grumble thread I recently said that this is the most hostile of the five forums I monitor. Here's a good example of what I meant:

"...He is polite. You are not, you are rude and you are know-it-alls with your noses in the air...."

"...If the PPFA is run by people like you it is in big trouble."

Good news! I don't run PPFA.

------------------
Jim Miller, CPFcm; GAFP Committee Member
 
I has been my experience never to start a dialog with someone using the following phrases:

"You are ..."

or

"Why do you always ..."

or

"People like you ..."

In this PC (politically correct) world these could be considered confrontational (fighting words). I believe there are other more suitable phases if one chooses to participate in a debate. One might also consider reading the post they are responding to twice so that what they think they are understanding is actually what was meant.

Perhaps I could suggest that in this forum ideas be put forth and others asked to consider them.

Now where is "Z" light when I need it.

------------------
Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited November 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited November 08, 2000).]
 
IT HAS TAKEN ME FORTY FIVE MIN TO READ THIS ENTIRE POST AND ALL ATTACHMENTS.

I ALSO AM PROUD TO SAY THAT I AM A MEMBER OF (IN MY OPINION) THE BEST FRAMING ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD " THE PICTURE FRAMERS GRUMBLE "

Thanks to framer and all of his neutrality.

This whole thing is nothing but a bashing from either direction. while I do not personally endorse the PPFA I also don't endorse any other organization except the grumble. People have the right to say and do as they feel if they are rude, then they are rude. If they are kind, then they are kind. what I am saying is that if you don't like what someone is saying, then just take what you want from it and throw the rest away where are you getting by punching back.

In all due respect, I enjoy taking advise from all the above mentioned people they all have more experience and education than I do. Is their a reason any of this had to happen??????


Now as for the PPFA I feel that it is a waste of time to join some organization that just hands me a book of other people in the organization. I can go online and find just about every frameshop in the country If I wanted to. I have been in business for three years and have never had a customer come in and ask me If I am a Certified Picture Framer. I feel that the only thing the ppfa is about is making money just like any other business. Like my business. I am here to make money first and then worry about all the rest. Why should I pay money to an organization that will certify anyone Why are Larson's sales reps certified they never put a frame together in their lives.
I just don't see what everyone else sees. When an organization comes along that concentrates on making more money in this industry instead of putting people on pedestals I will join it.

Once again thanks to Framer for putting up with us and staying neutral...


Also thanks to all for listing.
 
While I also respect Bob Carter's desire to bury this thread, I'm going to dive in and share a few thoughts. I think that a few things ought to be addressed for the vast number of people out in cyberspace who monitor groups like this one, the HBFN and the Hitchhikers without ever writing in. These folks are known as "lurkers" in some circles, and honestly guys, if I were a lurker scanning this thread I would NEVER deign to post anything here or anywhere else. The fear of being flamed is hindering the participation of many, many people, I suspect, and I'd like to do a little something to alleviate these folks' fears.

So, here we go. IMHO, as I tried to communicate in my previous post, I truly believe that the vast majority of perceived "infractions" on lists of this type are based more in human error than in malice. Using the Hitchhikers as an example, the format of the e-mail exchange is such that when you click the "reply" option in the toolbar in order to respond to a message, it gets posted to the entire list. On a daily basis, there is at least one message posted to the list that should have been sent privately to the intended receipient. This is a simple error, and it generally happens to folks with limited computer experience. Errors like this have, in the past, served to fuel the fires of controversy.

Next, read a few of the posts in this thread. You routinely see words like "stupid", "flagrant", "ignorant" and "elitist". I can't help but wonder if the authors of these threads understand how the average Joe perceives these statements. I've admittedly not spent enough time on this particular list to be an authority, so take my advice for what it's worth; would the participation in this group perhaps be more constructive if individual members tried to keep personal attacks out of their posts? Those of you who have condemned the individual PPFA members for their misconduct, and those of you who admonish the PPFA to enforce some code of ethics -- do you not recognize that some in this group are behaving in a shocking manner, far worse than the original controversy that started this whole mess? Is this list monitored for content? Are members censured for their actions here? I don't expect that they are, although I do not know for certain. Still, do you all realize that the Hitchhikers, although operated for the benefit of the PPFA members, is not operated BY the PPFA? It functions much as this list does, and individual members are as free to write in there as they are here. Everything after that is reactionary, and I think that the PPFA has wisely chosen NOT to enforce a code of ethics on the list. Not that it's the PPFA's list to censure.

We individual members of the Hitchhikers monitor ourselves pretty well, and I find the exchange of information to be quite honest and open. There are certainly some members who think more highly of their opinions than they do of others; I assert that this is true in any group -- it most certainly is in here! Still, as a whole, I find it to be an incredibly helpful and giving group. In another thread on the Grumble, a member openly expresses contempt for newer framers asking for help, stating that they should figure things out for themselves, or pay for the privelege of learning. (I've paraphrased.) This doesn't happen on the HH exchange, and I expect that those of you who have commented on their being mistreated on the list haven't been on for quite awhile.

Enough on the concept of being decent human beings. I'm going to give a brief statement in support of the PPFA, so stop reading now if you wish. Here are a few of the tangible benefits of the PPFA: Discounted rates on business insurance, workers' comp insurance, etc. Toll-free Help Line, where members can call in with any old question (some things people would be crucified for here, apparently) and get a succinct reply in a day or so. Hitchhikers list, if you choose. Discounted educational rates at trade shows -- take a few classes in Atlanta and you've paid for your membership. Active regional chapters in many parts of the country that promote education, camraderie, business advice and general advancement of the profession as an industry. Comprehensive compilation of the most current accepted standards in the industry, in the form of the CPF study materials, so that we ALL may be better framers. Decent ad slicks, if you chose to use them.

There are certainly other benefits, but I'm just a lowly member, so I don't claim to be up on all of them. Still, with just that list, I think there's a pile of stuff that would be useful to most framers and/or business owners. Some folks here have certainly expressed their dissatisfaction with the PPFA as an organization. Of you, I would ask as to how recently you participated? There have been a lot of changes in the last few years, and if you've not explored the PPFA recently, you may want to think about it.

Canadian framers, I sympathize with your feelings of being under represented and serviced. PPFA Past President Jim Adler is aware of your plight, finds it appaling, and continues to work on changing this. Still you must make the choice as to what is a good business decision for you.

The rest of you who choose to berate the PPFA for their infractions, have you checked into things recently? Did you truly listen -- those of you who inquired about the lack of censure in the Orton Carberry Incident -- to the reasons behind the PPFA's not taking action? If you're basing your distrust and dissatisfaction of the organization on an informed and knowledgeable position, then you're by all means entitled to express it. However, if you're simply repeating heresay or conjecture, as others in this list have done right in this thread, I'd encourage you to educate yourselves before sharing your vehemence with the populace as a whole. JohnG quite honestly states that he's in business to make money, as I'd hope that we all are. The PPFA is, BTW, a non-profit organization. It's mission is to encourage education and the advancement of the business of picture framing as a profession. JohnG, I don't know you, but I'd like to think that you wouldn't substitute a Whitecore Basic mat for a client who selected a rag. While you'd make more money, you would do so in a dishonest manner. It has been my experience that the PPFA is honest in its desire to help its members be more profitable for the right reasons. Perhaps that's a bad analogy, but it's late and I'm tired. You're all adults, I think, and you can certainly make your own choices about the PPFA, FACTS, FATG and other trade organizations. However, it may be helpful if you allow others to make up their own minds based upon facts, rather than opinions.

That being said, I'm done here. Sorry for taking so much of your time; I hope that interested parties found something to use in my post, and that the uninterested ones started skimming a long time ago.

Derek Vandeberg CPF
Frame of Reference, Bigfork, Montana
mailto:frameref@digisys.net
 
Boy, you can be a long winded bunch! In regards to the status of the CPFG in Canada, it has been basically shut down due to the lack of support we are able to assemble in the way of Board members. Over the last eight years we have recycled people to the point they no longer want to participate. It had also been recognized that in order to be most effective, we needed to become National. There are not many framers who are willing to put in many hours of work on something that won't bring customers in their door - and I can't say that I blame anyone for that. In order to be effective we would need a stronger National board whereby they would realize the benefits of their efforts - perhaps some National suppliers? I had been, and I guess, still am, the President of the CPFG. I had been Vice-president, and the President resigned at our first meeting due to personal problems. I was, and am not, in the position to spearhead a revitalization of the CPFG at this time. There's some cash in the bank, and if someone can help determine where we need to go from here, I'll be willing to help where possible.
I have been talking to Julie Freeman about developing a truely "Canadian" PPFA which would run independant of the American PPFA, yet would purchase materials, testing, etc., from PPFA. I have found her very open to discuss any thoughts put forth. The big problem we encountered with the CPFG was the work involved with "re-inventing" the wheel, so to speak. The PPFA has done a fine job of developing a program, content, testing criteria, etc. Obviously there are some problems, but we have to keep an open mind and not let some of our personal biases cloud the objective. The objective of the organization is to provide support for, and the development and promotion of, the Framing Industry. Developing a set criteria for testing and assigning CPF designation may not seem like much to us in the industry, but it is one effective way to tell our consumers that this is a "profession" with standards. I wouldn't want my car fixed by someone who hasn't gotten his Mechanic's certificate, and I know I pay more for the assurance of a good job. Promoting the certified professionalism of framers is important, and can only be achieved through such organizations like the PPFA who have determined the criteria for this. Lord knows, we tried to put something together here in Winnipeg for testing, and no one knew where to start, nor could they agree on much of it once they did!
To get to the point, we have to know what we want from associations, and be sure that it can fulfil a genuine need. We are people of all backgrounds and personalities and we have to be far less sensitive to the comments (or lack thereof) of others in order to see the clear picture and be productive...
Sorry, did I call you guys long winded?
Eugene Dahl

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by calley:
All other points aside .... for those framers in Canada, the CPFG is unfortunately on hiatus. The group was formed four or five years ago (if my memory is correct) and worked very hard at trying to create an effective association for the Canadian framer. It is my understanding that the association's board decided to put things on hold earlier this year to re-evaluate the association.
Is there anyone out there, who was a member or on the board who can confirm what is going on with the CPFG?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
rolleyes.gif


smileyshot22.gif
 
Dear Derek
I am one of the "lurkers" you described in your letter.I will probably go back to lurking not because I'm afraid of being criticized but because I have little to contribute.I am still learning how to do things.
I like your letters and I agree with some of what you said and I do understand some of the things that you are trying to say. If the PPFA was run by people like you it probably would be a different animal.You are level headed and you state your opinion without showing disrespect. I can't say that for all PPFA members.
I tried the PPFA at the Toronto show a year ago, that's pretty recent.Please read my other note. While I was talking to the person on duty, as soon as I mentioned that I operated out of my home, I could feel the ice descending. No thanks.Once burned twice shy. Leopards do not change their spots.
The experience makes me think the PPFA does not care where or how their money comes as long as it comes in. They offer nothing to me as a Canadian not even the PPFA Online Exchange. Whatever information is there is available elsewhere for free without the snobbery and problems attached. There is a good framing school in nearby Barrie so I do not need to go to the PPFA. It bothers me that I have to send my money to them in U.S. funds. More snobbery I guess.
I think that the biggest problem at PPFA is that they didn't bother to communicate back to anyone even Mr. Carberry. Another bit of snobbery maybe? I don't think that I am the only one who feels like this. It's unfortunate because there are some nice people in the PPFA but they don't seem to be in the majority. A Canadian association could possibly turn out the same way but I'd sooner take my chances closer to home.
The PPFA should keep in mind that they need us, we really do not need them.

Sincerely

Becky Tine
 
I (along with several other PPFA staffers) have been reading this thread since it began. I appreciate Merrill Grayson, Jim Miller and Derek Vandeberg clearing up a few misconceptions and errors in a few of the postings.

Becky's recent posting about her experience when trying to sign up for PPFA at the Toronto show concerned me. If she felt an icy attitude when she mentioned that she was a home-based framer, then I apologize on behalf of PPFA. I do not know who she spoke with at the show, but it would have either been a PPFA manager (myself, PPFA's Executive Director or Membership Director) or one of PPFA's volunteer Board Members. I can tell you point blank that neither PPFA staff nor its Board cares if a member is operating out of a retail location or from home.

We have a significant number of home-based framers as members, many of whom serve in voluntary capacities on various committees or as officers for PPFA Chapters.

I'll be the first to admit that PPFA needs to look for additional programs for its Canadian members, and we are. Whether or not a framer sees enough value for the PPFA membership fee is obviously a decision each individual needs to make. Hopefully, it is a decision that is made after carefully reviewing ALL of the benefits that PPFA offers.

For Canadian members, PPFA invoices in Canadian funds, not U.S. While some programs may be advertised in U.S. funds (i.e. educational programs at locations in the U.S.), we gladly accept Canadian equivalent funds.

Becky also mentions that PPFA didn't bother to communicate back to anyone, even Mr. Carberry.

I had a lengthy conversation with Mr. Carberry shortly after the Hitchhiker postings occurred. I apologized that he was offended by some of the responses to his postings. While some don't agree, I believe the responses were not intended to offend or embarrass Mr. Carberry, but were simply differences of opinion relating to a technical matter.

As I explained to Mr. Carberry during our conversation, PPFA generally does not censure individual opinion. If it had been a personal attack on Mr. Carberry, then that would have been completely different. I really don't believe that was the situation in this case.

Thanks,
John Redmond
PPFA Program Director
 
Frameref,
I threw all my white core Matt boards out last month. I never showed them or used them in my short three years. I see them as a tool that dishonest people used, so I never even looked at them because it did bother me that they could be used in an inappropriate way.

I do have one question.

Is the PPFA a Not for profit organization, or a nonprofit organization.

As far as the discounted insurance rates I called capax directly and got the same discounts on my insurance that they offered the PPFA members.

However I will agree that having a help hotline is great. However when I am in need of help I normally need to find an immediate answer. As for the Hitchhikers I have the GRUMBLE. and as for the discounts for the classes at the trade show I take all the free classes and when some new technique comes into the market, I ask, ask, ask, and then ask some more until I am educated. and the local ppfa charters you speak of are close to non existent to me to get to a monthly meeting I would have to drive forty five min. at a min this is not a convenience to me.

Now please do not take what I have said as an attack I am simply saying that I have looked into the PPFA and seen all their benefits and have found alternatives to almost everything.

I do feel that being part of a framing organization would be beneficial to me but as of yet no one has convinced me that the PPFA is the organization I should join...

Thanks for listening

John
 
John --

Thanks -- I think the correct term is non profit; at any rate, I know that the group generates revenue to serve its members, rather than for the sake of making money.

I respect your opinion regarding the organization and its value for you, and yes, there are certainly alternatives. Those folks who make an educated decision not to belong obviously have solid reasons for doing so, just as you've stated. Perhaps part of our desire to belong to the group and to participate in chapter meetings stems from our physical locale. The population of the entire state of Montana is around 800,000, so in a lot of respects, framers are few and far between for many folks. In the larger (50,000+) cities, there are usually several shops, but many of us are fortunate enough to be able to operate with only one or two other framers in a 20-mile (or much greater) radius. At any rate, some folks have been known to drive as much as 10 hours to attend a quarterly meeting/educational seminar. These folks certainly feel a strong bond to others in the group. I consider myself fortunate, in that I consider other framers to be colleagues and peers, rather than competitors. Life can be pretty ugly if you're always battling with the other framers in town. Believe me, I've been there, and I like our situation much better now.

Things seem to have settled a bit in this thread, and I'm pleased to see some actual discourse and exchange of ideas. It's pretty apparent that we're not all going to agree on this topic, and that's okay. How drab the world would be if we all thought the same.

Derek Vandeberg CPF
Frame of Reference, Bigfork, Montana
 
Thanks for the answer,

My reasoning is that a non profit organization is not allowed to make a profit what ever they make has to be spent.

a Not for Profit organization is an organization who is set up not to make a profit but if they do they split it up with the share holders.

This is why I asked.

Thanks John
 
Hi JohnG.
smile.gif


You stated: and the local ppfa charters you speak of are close to non existent to me to get to a monthly meeting I would have to drive forty five min. at a min this is not a convenience to me.

I can understand this and respect your decision to not participate.

For me, it's a 3 hr drive each way, but I still make every meeting. I've even driven down there, done a tele-ed confrence on my cell phone, and then continued w/ the chapter meeting.

I usually get home after midnight, but to me it's worth the trip. I listen to tape programs in the car, so I get a solid 6 hrs of learning, plus the stuff I learn at the chapter.

Many members don't even drive the 10 minutes to go to a meeting.

Distance isn't really what counts; it's how much you want of what's at the other end.

I'm sorry it's not that important to you, but I respect your beliefs.



------------------
Kenneth Brooks PPFA FACTS AFC
Integrity Framing & Art Gallery
Wichita Falls, TX
 
Hello, All.
Well, I guess I have to jump in to the fray now! I have been reading with much interest all of the back-and-forth in this thread. It seems that Derek is right - when people send e-mails, they fire them off without much thought! For instance -the following quote from JohnG could be found to be very offensive:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JOHNG:
I threw all my white core Matt boards out last month. I see them as a tool that dishonest people used, so I never even looked at them because it did bother me that they could be used in an inappropriate way.

John, everything we do as framers (and sellers of artwork) have the POTENTIAL to be used inappropriately, but that is NOT the product's fault! I frequently use white core mats on posters or other items brought in to me which do not require conservation methods. I believe that not everything we frame REQUIRES conservation framing techniques - to sell them when there is no need, could be seen as dishonest. Having said that, I must tell you that 85% of the items we frame are framed with conservation everything, incluing the glass - but NOT if the customer can't justify the expense. We also don't believe in giving away conservation framing materials, thus I, for one, am glad that there are high-quality products that I can present to a customer for any needs they may have. If I present all options to a customer (he can have a quality design without yellowing mat bevels for less cost) and he makes an informed choice, then I have done my best for him/her, and I feel I have given him/her excellent customer service (which is, for me, a guiding business principle).

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In response to the home-based framer (Becky, I think...) I have exchanged many lovely posts with several home-based framers on HH (I am not home-based)and have found all of the folks on the HH to provide endless help and information with a very kind, nurturing tone to their e-mails. It amazes me constantly that so many knowledgeable, experienced picture framers would take the time to help out those of us who are relative newcomers! And, my experience is, that the posts are almost always very nice. When they seem less than nice, I believe it is the medium...many folks just write what come to mind, doesn't edit, and send it into cyberspace. I don't believe that any of the HH writers mean to offend.

As many of these posts have pointed out, the PPFA is not for everyone, they do not necessarily do everything right, but neither do I!! I have found many of the benefits of the PPFA to be good and some not so good for me or my business (for example, I found insurance that is less expensive, on my own, than the PPFA's benefit group can provide ME, HOWEVER, some framers cannot and so I am happy that the PPFA can help them - my guess is that it probably helps home-based framers a lot MORE than it helps larger, retail framers!). But I am glad that it exists for the things that it does do.

Also, any non-profit organization, such as the PPFA, that relies on voluntary service, is ONLY as good as it's membership. The MEMBERSHIP must work with the paid staff to ensure that it's needs are being met! The members must help the staff to see what needs to be changed. The staff must listen to the membership. I believe that, for the most part, the PPFA does do that. (I do not agree with everything it does, but I don't think I want to throw it out because of that!)

When the PPFA is not meeting your needs, you as a member have the responsibility to inform them. If all of the members feel it is not worth being active, then it will not flourish or grow or become what it needs to be.

Having said all that, I have also found that I do not have much time to contribute to the Carolinas chapter (where I live and work) and that I cannot get to the meetings because I am usually working on those Sundays, am out of town, doing other volunteer work (church) or spending time with my children!! BUT, I also feel that I am NOT at liberty, then, to criticize what it does. I would be more inclined to jump in and try to change the things that I believe need changing, if I felt they weren't doing things "right!"

I am not very involved in the PPFA, but I do recognize the value of having an organization to help our industry. I also hope to become involved when my time does permit, and I appreciate all of these opportunties to voice opinions and receive help when needed! Thanks to all of you who make this happen!
Lyn
 
Dear Folks

I doubt that more rhetoric on this issue will significantly change our world
today. It is time to end speculation about my involvement in this issue and it is time to put the PPFAXchange matter to rest.

I want to borrow a line from Derek Vandeberg's posting and warn you ahead of time that this will be a lengthy letter. I will also borrow heavily from some of the responses because the perceptions and conclusions expressed in them were well stated. It is my intent to answer as your e-mail questions and concerns as succinctly as possible in this posting. My style therefore, will be terse and perhaps, even stilted.

I was an early supporter of the CPFG in Ontario long before I terminated
my relationship with PPFA. Whether I like it or not, the current discussion included my name because I am a strong advocate of a Canadian association, because I no longer advocate PPFA, and because the old PPFA Code of Ethics issue has been brought forward by third parties over whom I have no control.

I am uncertain as to why this matter was brought into the Grumble in the first place. The topic originated in the HBFN by Eugene Dahl who initiated an open discussion regarding the CPFGuild with references to a PPFA context. PPFA's representative in that discussion is Mr.Vic Grand. This is an informal, open, unsanctioned forum where reader opinion is actively sought.

In responding to Eugene's HBFN posting, I e-mailed a personal note to Mr. Grand. I made a mechanical error in addressing my note, and because of BFN's operating system, the note posted itself to the HBFN forum. When I received the posting notice only minutes afterward, I immediately expunged the note from the HBFN and contacted Mr. Grand directly to let him know of the error. The note was deleted from the HBFN because it was intended to be private.

Consequent postings to the HBFN by Mr. Grand were of a general forum nature, they were not rebuttals or replies to my note.

The open CPFG discussion with references to the PPFAX June 1999 behavioural/ethics question was carried into the Grumble by Dr. Arno Riise. I can only speculate what Dr. Riise's intentions were, and I will not do that. Dr. Riise and I have never met nor had I ever communicated with him.

It is my desire to end speculation about my actions concerning the PPFAX, PPFA,
CPFG and my role in them.

In June of 1999 I replied to a question in the PPFAX and took grave offense to the manner in which my reply was greeted by some PPFA members. It was my opinion that the members involved attacked my credibility. I consequently communicated my thoughts to the individuals concerned by private e-mail, and in the context of personal interaction
between myself and those members, the matter was closed.

From a professionalism perspective it was my opinion that a breach of professional conduct had been made. As perceived by a respondent to this thread, indeed it is my opinion that the PPFAX is an integral part of PPFA because it is officially sanctioned by PPFA.

As long as PPFA lends its name to the PPFAX, or for that matter to any activity, PPFA shares responsibility for proceedings within that activity, no matter how ones tries to rationalize otherwise. Expressing it another way: "If it looks like a duck. . ." (the forum is identified as the PPFA Online Exchange,) "walks like a duck. . ." (PPFA authorized the use of its name,) "and quacks like a duck. . ." (the forum is promoted as the PPFA Online Exchange,) "it is a duck." Therefore, the PPFA Code of Ethics does apply to the PPFAX, and I stand by my conviction.

As has been emphasized in the postings, responsible professional associations do not tolerate the kind of behaviour that was exhibited in the PPFAX and which gave cause to my concern. I suggest that this is the case in most professional associations regardless of geography. Colleagues do not attack colleagues.

I requested that PPFA intervene under the authority of its Code of Ethics to: "maintain a dignity of manner and behaviour in the presentation of services and in all other forms of professional conduct." The issue was not about differing opinions or about the right to differ. The issue was and is about the manner in which behaviour was exhibited. PPFA seems to remain consistent in not addressing this aspect of the issue.

As a Canadian PPFA member I received no tangible benefits from PPFA. Education opportunity for me is not an issue. Advantageous credit card rates, insurance, phone discounts, car rentals, group buying, local chapters, etc., are all essentially non-existent in Canada by virtue of their
irrelevancy or can be obtained at more advantageous rates independently of PPFA.
The only benefit remaindering to me was the PPFAX where, on occasion, I might learn something, and where I may have been allowed to help someone. This last "benefit" was nullified by PPFA's desire to take no intervention action.

My decision to take out PPFA membership was not a business decision. It was based upon
principle, even though "business merit" indicated that expending the membership fee was not logical. My consequent decision to leave PPFA also was not a "business" decision, it also was based upon principle.

It is a falsehood that "harsh words" were exchanged between any of the PPFAX participants and myself. There has been no communication between the members and me since the initial occurrence. I harbour no ill feelings towards any of them.

I did not participate in this thread up until now because it would not have been constructive to do so.

I detect that there has been no change in PPFA's Canadian context. I suggest that this is a situation that realistically, is not apt to improve in the foreseeable future.

I cannot comment upon the current environment within the PPFAX because as a non-member, I am denied access.

Arguably, the only tangible benefit that Canadian members receive is the PPFAX. However, similar benefits are available via credible alternative resources such as The Grumble, Frameconnews, and the HBFN which are not hampered by membership fees.

PPFA executive members have urged me to reconsider my opinion, and I sincerely appreciate their supportive words. I have difficulty in justifying a reconsideration when I perceive that PPFA remains inflexible in its approach to the original issue. Therefore I stand solidly behind my conviction that PPFA demonstrated an incapacity for universal and equitable
participation of its membership. Until that reality changes, I will not advocate
PPFA and cannot support PPFA.

I am truly overwhelmed by the amount of collective reader-support shown for me. I have received letters and notes literally from coast-to-coast- to-coast, some by postings in this thread, some by fax,
some by telephone, and many more by direct e-mail. I really do not know quite what to say other than offer a very inadequate "thank you." I deeply appreciate your kind and supportive words.

It is a shame that so much energy has had to be expended upon issues with negative overtones. I want now to turn my energy toward the question of a Canadian framers association, and to working closely with Eugene, Barbara, and our CPFG colleagues.

To interested parties, I urge you to continue the CPFG discussion in the HBFN as per
Eugene's original posting . . . but please, let's leave the PPFAXchange issue out of it.

I will continue to advocate that it is counter-productive to be condescending
or rude, whether in an officially sanctioned forum or whether in a public forum. There is no need to be rude by inference, innuendo, or by allowing postured body language to creep into the written word. Be kind, be polite, be respectful, not only in words,
but in deed. Please join me.

I am going to ask Framer to close this Grumble thread now. Next, I am going to give my staff the day off, close the studio, and get some air.

Framer, thank you for your patience. Please lock this thread.

Sincerely

Orton T. Carberry
 
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