- One of the issues with the CPF, is the Grandfather clause, it seems unfair, that some such as Nona were grandfathered in, even though they may, at their own discretion, choose to take the class, its their choice, the rest of us have no choice, take it or lose it. I feel most, such as Nona, who are very professional would still take the course, as well as other courses they feel would be useful in helping them become a better professional framer, as would the rest of us. But why should some in a organization such as the PPFA, be excempt, and others are not? Still just a wondering?
It would be similiar to a City passing a ordinance requiring everyone to keep their yards up. You would not be able to let the grass or weeds get over 8" in your yard. Those who are currently living within the city limits, at the time of the passing of the ordinance, would be exempt. You would never be required to keep your yard up, unless you so chose. Not sure most would like that even if you wrote the rules, and then to exempt yourself and others who wrote up the requirements, most folks would be upset.
Their seems to be only one fair way, everyone is required to take the recertification as of Sept 2005, and no one is grandfathered, exempt, etc. If its good for most, it should be good for all. Why should some be grandfathered in, and not others?. We all pay our dues and all should be treated the same....and that's all I have to say about that at the moment.
CPF Grandfather Clause
- Thread starter treeves
- Start date
Bill Henry-
Brussel Sprout Connoisseur
Since I am grandfathered, I am not particularly bothered by this, but becoming a CPF is a voluntary choice. Unlike, for example, the state licensing of nurses and physicians, they need to keep up their credentials to practice. We don’t.
If one fails to become certified or to renew his certification, big deal. The government is not going to shut us down.
But, in your defense, medical personnel need only accrue a certain number of CEUs by attending a certain number of classes per year to retain their credentials. They do not have to retake another exam.
If one fails to become certified or to renew his certification, big deal. The government is not going to shut us down.
But, in your defense, medical personnel need only accrue a certain number of CEUs by attending a certain number of classes per year to retain their credentials. They do not have to retake another exam.
Emibub
PFG, Picture Framing God
I am not a CPF I just play one on TV........as I see it the grandfathered group took their tests at a time when there were no other tests. They met their requirements and passed the one test and were awarded CPF status for life. The powers that be then decided to make it an ongoing thing for future CPF's in a way to keep them current. I don't think the previous CPF's should have to have the rules changed on them, they fulfilled their requirements. It would be just as unfair to them to have the rules changed.
Maybe the whole thing could be fixed to suit everybody, perhaps with a new designation like "CPF Supreme" to indicate which kind of CPF you are......
The good thing is that all individuals thought enough about their industry to take the test!
Maybe the whole thing could be fixed to suit everybody, perhaps with a new designation like "CPF Supreme" to indicate which kind of CPF you are......
The good thing is that all individuals thought enough about their industry to take the test!
Marc Lizer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Just playing neutral corner here:
Emibub,
As Bill just pointed out, it's voluntary. And something a framer decides to do, or not do.
Much like an average citizen may or may not decide to buy a car.
Yet they can make new car laws that affect all cars.
Cars new and old.
A good example one such law or regulation is gas formulations.
On the other hand they make old cars exempt from some new laws (like emmisions and seatbelts).
So is the requirement for ongoing education and re-certification more like a seatbelt that holds you back, or more like gas the make you go forward?
Emibub,
As Bill just pointed out, it's voluntary. And something a framer decides to do, or not do.
Much like an average citizen may or may not decide to buy a car.
Yet they can make new car laws that affect all cars.
Cars new and old.
A good example one such law or regulation is gas formulations.
On the other hand they make old cars exempt from some new laws (like emmisions and seatbelts).
So is the requirement for ongoing education and re-certification more like a seatbelt that holds you back, or more like gas the make you go forward?
From the outside:
Isn't one of the reasons for the CPF to have some kind of standard that the buying public can look to for assurance of quality?
The CPF exam has changed over the years to reflect advances in technology, and the requirements to attain and maintain the certification have changed as well. Is it in the program's best interest to have two separate and unequal requirements to display the certification? Does it not dilute the meaning or importance of the certification if there is this division of requirement?
I means less as a professional certification if not all that qualify are required to participate in continuing education. IMHO.
Isn't one of the reasons for the CPF to have some kind of standard that the buying public can look to for assurance of quality?
The CPF exam has changed over the years to reflect advances in technology, and the requirements to attain and maintain the certification have changed as well. Is it in the program's best interest to have two separate and unequal requirements to display the certification? Does it not dilute the meaning or importance of the certification if there is this division of requirement?
I means less as a professional certification if not all that qualify are required to participate in continuing education. IMHO.
Emibub the first part of your explanation sounds very familiar,I think I might have said that already in another post and been thanked for the explanation.I belive i also explained that some who where grandfathered ( even instructors) did indeed recert. on a PURELY voluntary basis.
However Marc in an attempt to use your annalogies ,it might be like an old car that had just a lap restraining seat belt in it. they weren't ordered off the road when the new shoulder harness were installed in the newer cars ,but if they were removed or damaged they needed to be replaced with the harness type.
so now it is with the accquireing of the MCPF. if you want to test for it you DO NEED to be recertified within the last 4 years ,NO EXCEPTIONS. i know since when the first MCPF was offered i wanted to tkae it but wasn't allowed ( even being Grandfathered) until I recertified.
When the ongoing testing and higher levels where instituted everyone had to comply. Forwarnd is forearmed.the grandfather was for those who were told ,as Emibub and someone else said,that this was the ultimate test and no other would be given.
Things are different now,at alot of Framers request and suggestion,so the prereqricits are also. But it didn't change the fact that many Grandfathered CPFs( even as prestigeious as Nona ) did in deed VOLUNTARILY take the Recert. exam, especially if they wished to continue their cerifications through more rigorus teating standards.
BUDDY
However Marc in an attempt to use your annalogies ,it might be like an old car that had just a lap restraining seat belt in it. they weren't ordered off the road when the new shoulder harness were installed in the newer cars ,but if they were removed or damaged they needed to be replaced with the harness type.
so now it is with the accquireing of the MCPF. if you want to test for it you DO NEED to be recertified within the last 4 years ,NO EXCEPTIONS. i know since when the first MCPF was offered i wanted to tkae it but wasn't allowed ( even being Grandfathered) until I recertified.
When the ongoing testing and higher levels where instituted everyone had to comply. Forwarnd is forearmed.the grandfather was for those who were told ,as Emibub and someone else said,that this was the ultimate test and no other would be given.
Things are different now,at alot of Framers request and suggestion,so the prereqricits are also. But it didn't change the fact that many Grandfathered CPFs( even as prestigeious as Nona ) did in deed VOLUNTARILY take the Recert. exam, especially if they wished to continue their cerifications through more rigorus teating standards.
BUDDY
Before most of us were born (not all). professionals in engineering, accounting etc. were not licensed. When licensing came, these individuals were grandfathered into their professions.
From personnel experience, my father was a P.E.
As a mechanical engineer designing the structures there was a lot of responsability. By his own personnel wish he sat for the certification tests and passed the first time. If he did not take the tests he would have still been an engineer and architect.
From personnel experience, my father was a P.E.
As a mechanical engineer designing the structures there was a lot of responsability. By his own personnel wish he sat for the certification tests and passed the first time. If he did not take the tests he would have still been an engineer and architect.
JudyN
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I wouldn't worry over it too much all of us "old" CPFs will either sell our shops or move on to retirement or to the great frameshop in the sky. 
Thanks for posting Judy, just a lot of time on my hands at the moment. We got so many post on the first CPF, I thought I would stir the pot a little. It does make sense if the first CPF's were told that they would not ever have to recertify, but I'm not sure that is the case, I missed by weeks being grandfathered in, and I don't remember anyone talking of grandfathering until the test I took. I think maybe their might have been a dozen CPF in my state at time of my test.
I had studied the material, and framed for over 3 years before going to take the test, and then was told I would have to start recetifying with my test group.
It just seemed that those making the rules, had suddenly decided they did not want to have the burden of recert. for themselves, so it was a simple matter "lets be grandfathered in" and the rest of 'em, recert. ever 4 years.... Its seems so simple to make rules for others and then enforce them, but at the same time the enforcer is exempt from his own rules, I quess I'm trying to feel good about the enforcer, who is requiring me do things that he or she has made sure that they are not required to do, but have just a slight understanding problem, but just a topic of discussion, nothing more.
"Simple minds are often easily confused, understanding what others find simple is often difficult"
I had studied the material, and framed for over 3 years before going to take the test, and then was told I would have to start recetifying with my test group.
It just seemed that those making the rules, had suddenly decided they did not want to have the burden of recert. for themselves, so it was a simple matter "lets be grandfathered in" and the rest of 'em, recert. ever 4 years.... Its seems so simple to make rules for others and then enforce them, but at the same time the enforcer is exempt from his own rules, I quess I'm trying to feel good about the enforcer, who is requiring me do things that he or she has made sure that they are not required to do, but have just a slight understanding problem, but just a topic of discussion, nothing more.
"Simple minds are often easily confused, understanding what others find simple is often difficult"
Marc Lizer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I don't think it was that sinister.
Rationally looking at it, it is twofold. To keep up the level of knowledge for the craft (however knowing that PPFA will make money on offering the classes needed).
And secondly also an ongong income concern (money wise) for the re-cert fee.
This way they get you comming and going.
It's kinda like what the city does. They charge you for the water going into your house, and then a separate charge for a sewer fee for the stuff you retun to them in the other pipe.
Now, at the time, PPFA was the only education game in town. Now there are more education opps, but that's a different story.
Needless to say, everyone offers eudcation that may be helpful to the CPF exam, but only PPFA offers recert classes, and you have to pay PPFA the re-cert fee.
Like most business decisions, it's all in the numbers.
But that does beg the question of a tiered system. More eligible CPF's would be more potentinal income.
What politician would pass a law that taxes themselves?
It's all about money. It's always about money. Follow the money.
Emibub
PFG, Picture Framing God
In my wildest dreams I can't even imagine them concocting this nefarious scheme so they could sit back like fat cats all the while snickering because they found a way to keep themselves from further testing so they could inflict repeated testing on the others. I don't know the history of when the rules changed but I am willing to bet all involved kept up on the recertification, they were just trying to be fair to previous CPF's.
CAframer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Dependent on your point of view the outlook might be gloomy or bright, but one things for sure the problem will go away ... eventually.
Ultimately all those grandfathered in will retire or die!
In the meantime why worry?!!!!!!
Ultimately all those grandfathered in will retire or die!
In the meantime why worry?!!!!!!
Emibub
PFG, Picture Framing God
I agree with Ca Framer.......Don't worry......be happy!
I plan to do at least some framing until I die, and I will always be a CPF, so I'll try not to embarrass other CPFs.
It's unlikely I'll voluntarily take a recert test 'cause I'm basically lazy and kinda busy, but, if I get to the point where I'm not keeping up on things, I'll stop introducing myself to complete strangers as Ron Eggers, CPF.
Howzat?
treeves; I thank you for your previous compliment when I explained the way I understood the process and the reasoning in another thread.
However the more I read your post and consider your intensions your own comment ;"I thought I would stir the pot a little." ,seems to be very revealing.
Despite the attempt to make things look like some sinister plot ,why don't you just take things for what they are worth,and either avail yourself of the education ( from where ever) and pay the very understandable fees,or just forget it all and go your way being happy with the knowledge you know you have ( as many others are doing )without trying to " stir the pot " and cause discension?
The reasoning has been explained "ad nauseum".No one ever said that the first CPFs where told they wouldn't have to recertifie (that would imply that the recert . program existed at that time and it didn't ).They were told this was a life time designation and it still is.Your CPF is and will be worth exactly what you were told it would be. The same is true of those who were Grandfathered . The differance came into being when Framers not unlike yourself wanted MORE continued testing on the most current techniques and then they also asked for a "Practcum" ( I think that was the word you used prevously) so the MCPF was instituted and it was decided that only those who had proven ( certified) that they had kept current would be allowed to TEST ( grandfathered or not).This is not unlike what you where told ,despite the fact that the guidelines had changed by only two weeks when you took and passed the CPF exam.
I am not trying to interject religion in this thread ( by no means) but the best annalogy I can think of comes from the Bible as I remember it. It bares a strikeing resembalance to the parabel of the workers in the Vineyard.They ( the workers )where all paid the same and those that came first ( conversely ) thought they should be paid MORE. As the story goes they were told you got the wage you agreed to despite the fact that you may have worked differnt amounts of time. So too is the situation of the CPFs. It would be unfair to impose a NEW standard ,after the fact, on any TESTANT Old or new. So the Old CPFs where not told there would be a need to retest, as it was thought at the time that would be suffucent. Then two weeks before you tested it was decide that continued education and testing would be a better idea and everyone ( as I rememeber it) was told they would hence forth need yo recert. at least every 4 years to have their designation upgraded. It was also decided at that time that those who weren't advised of this previously ( before the recert. availibility and need) would be GRANDFATHERED .However it was strongly suggested that they ( those Grandfathered) avail themselves of the same information ( Information since no TESTING is required,only contiued education and verification and at a fee very reasonable in comparison to other seminars ,especially for PPFA memebers who receive a discounted rate). Subsiquently many FRAMERS both Members and non ,thought a hands on or Phsycal examination of the examinee's actual hand craft should be included which spawned the MCPF with it's prerequisate of recerting at least 4 years previously (for all examinees ( grandfatherd or not)and all where so warned and that should also be seen as fair warnning.
The asseration that PPFA makes money on all testing is a valid point( depending on the cost ,which I am not privy to ,and I wonder who is in this conversation ).However I don't think it is unfair for those who ;"Now there are more education opps" to charge a fee .But make no mistake , while this is a recertification Seminar it is also VERY comprable to the longer classes that others have and also charge a FEE for.However the designations are now REGISTERED to differeniate them from Immatators and therefore if you wish to have that designation and/or its Upgrades you can only get them from an approved PPFA venue.But as has also been said repeatedly the CPF,Recert . and MCPF programs are not for everyone and those who don't think it is for them need not apply.
Is this clearer now or is it just redundant due to some chooseing to " stir the pot a little."?
BUDDY
However the more I read your post and consider your intensions your own comment ;"I thought I would stir the pot a little." ,seems to be very revealing.
Despite the attempt to make things look like some sinister plot ,why don't you just take things for what they are worth,and either avail yourself of the education ( from where ever) and pay the very understandable fees,or just forget it all and go your way being happy with the knowledge you know you have ( as many others are doing )without trying to " stir the pot " and cause discension?
The reasoning has been explained "ad nauseum".No one ever said that the first CPFs where told they wouldn't have to recertifie (that would imply that the recert . program existed at that time and it didn't ).They were told this was a life time designation and it still is.Your CPF is and will be worth exactly what you were told it would be. The same is true of those who were Grandfathered . The differance came into being when Framers not unlike yourself wanted MORE continued testing on the most current techniques and then they also asked for a "Practcum" ( I think that was the word you used prevously) so the MCPF was instituted and it was decided that only those who had proven ( certified) that they had kept current would be allowed to TEST ( grandfathered or not).This is not unlike what you where told ,despite the fact that the guidelines had changed by only two weeks when you took and passed the CPF exam.
I am not trying to interject religion in this thread ( by no means) but the best annalogy I can think of comes from the Bible as I remember it. It bares a strikeing resembalance to the parabel of the workers in the Vineyard.They ( the workers )where all paid the same and those that came first ( conversely ) thought they should be paid MORE. As the story goes they were told you got the wage you agreed to despite the fact that you may have worked differnt amounts of time. So too is the situation of the CPFs. It would be unfair to impose a NEW standard ,after the fact, on any TESTANT Old or new. So the Old CPFs where not told there would be a need to retest, as it was thought at the time that would be suffucent. Then two weeks before you tested it was decide that continued education and testing would be a better idea and everyone ( as I rememeber it) was told they would hence forth need yo recert. at least every 4 years to have their designation upgraded. It was also decided at that time that those who weren't advised of this previously ( before the recert. availibility and need) would be GRANDFATHERED .However it was strongly suggested that they ( those Grandfathered) avail themselves of the same information ( Information since no TESTING is required,only contiued education and verification and at a fee very reasonable in comparison to other seminars ,especially for PPFA memebers who receive a discounted rate). Subsiquently many FRAMERS both Members and non ,thought a hands on or Phsycal examination of the examinee's actual hand craft should be included which spawned the MCPF with it's prerequisate of recerting at least 4 years previously (for all examinees ( grandfatherd or not)and all where so warned and that should also be seen as fair warnning.
The asseration that PPFA makes money on all testing is a valid point( depending on the cost ,which I am not privy to ,and I wonder who is in this conversation ).However I don't think it is unfair for those who ;"Now there are more education opps" to charge a fee .But make no mistake , while this is a recertification Seminar it is also VERY comprable to the longer classes that others have and also charge a FEE for.However the designations are now REGISTERED to differeniate them from Immatators and therefore if you wish to have that designation and/or its Upgrades you can only get them from an approved PPFA venue.But as has also been said repeatedly the CPF,Recert . and MCPF programs are not for everyone and those who don't think it is for them need not apply.
Is this clearer now or is it just redundant due to some chooseing to " stir the pot a little."?
BUDDY
nona powers
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I took the CPF test in 1986 under the idea that it was the ultimate test, there were no re-cert classes. However, it became clear as the industry, including techniques, materials and equipment, changed so drastically over the years that information on current knowledge became important and hence the re-cert. As I said on the other thread, the information in the re-cert class covers a lot of ground and would be difficult to teach in bits and pieces. I also think the dialog is important so the concepts are clear. It's not a "how to" class as much as a "do you understand" class.
In one of my classes years ago, I heard that a husband and wife took the CPF test. He had been framing for over 30 years and she had just started helping him in the business, he flunked the test, she passed it. The CPF tests general knowledge about the field of framing, it doesn't prove that you are or are not a good framer, it simply tells you that you know the concepts of framing so the chances of you being better than the next guy is greater. The re-cert class keeps you up on the industry.
The MCPF test could not be passed by someone who has not actually been a framer, doing hands on, or by someone who could not pass the CPF test. The skill level and general knowledge about how to do things would have to be learned or developed over years because the test and judges are rough.
The whole idea of the CPF, the MCPF or any other certification is to set yourself apart from others who may only pretend to be part of a profession. I could not pass a CPA test, nor would I want to. As I said before, I learned a great deal from the CPF and the MCPF and I even took the GCF in England. Every time I teach the MCPF I learn even more.
Most of the CPF tests and the re-cert classes are small. I very much doubt the PPFA is raking in the dough, in fact most of the time, probably not even breaking even. The testing would not be possible if it wasn't for the efforts of the certification board and other PPFA volunteers.
In one of my classes years ago, I heard that a husband and wife took the CPF test. He had been framing for over 30 years and she had just started helping him in the business, he flunked the test, she passed it. The CPF tests general knowledge about the field of framing, it doesn't prove that you are or are not a good framer, it simply tells you that you know the concepts of framing so the chances of you being better than the next guy is greater. The re-cert class keeps you up on the industry.
The MCPF test could not be passed by someone who has not actually been a framer, doing hands on, or by someone who could not pass the CPF test. The skill level and general knowledge about how to do things would have to be learned or developed over years because the test and judges are rough.
The whole idea of the CPF, the MCPF or any other certification is to set yourself apart from others who may only pretend to be part of a profession. I could not pass a CPA test, nor would I want to. As I said before, I learned a great deal from the CPF and the MCPF and I even took the GCF in England. Every time I teach the MCPF I learn even more.
Most of the CPF tests and the re-cert classes are small. I very much doubt the PPFA is raking in the dough, in fact most of the time, probably not even breaking even. The testing would not be possible if it wasn't for the efforts of the certification board and other PPFA volunteers.
Puppyraiser
PFG, Picture Framing God
Aaaahhhh, how well I remember the day... It was announced that the rules were going to change. Those who had already taken the CPF exam were lifetime certified as promised in the beginning. There was a year 'warning time' wherein you could take the test and be grandfathered, but at the end of the grace period periodic recertification would henceforth be required. Many scooted in under the wire, but then the new system was instituted and that is the one we have today. It is always surprising to me how many of the people taking recert are grandfathered CPFs.
If any of my facts ,dates and comments are in conflict with the Two extremly well known and informed LADIES who posted after me ,as well as Jim Miller and Ron Eggers, as well as many others,please defer to thier statistics and input.
But while doing so be sure to note who they are and when they became involved with the Designation and the extent to which they are.
As for my thinking , that should be enough to resolve anyone's legitmate questions.Unless they just would like to aggitate the pot a little more ,which serves no practicle purpose.
BUDDY
But while doing so be sure to note who they are and when they became involved with the Designation and the extent to which they are.
As for my thinking , that should be enough to resolve anyone's legitmate questions.Unless they just would like to aggitate the pot a little more ,which serves no practicle purpose.
BUDDY
J Phipps TN
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I think we are beating a dead horse here.
Sounds to me like they did the right thing when they changed the rules giving everyone "at the time" the option of getting in on the grandfather clause. If you missed it, too bad.
The rules have now changed and that's just the way it is. It's not like you have to have it to do your job. So, if you don't like the rules, don't play.
I personally want to get my CPF but at least I know I'm not forced to.
Now who has some use CPF materials they would like to sell?
Jennifer
Sounds to me like they did the right thing when they changed the rules giving everyone "at the time" the option of getting in on the grandfather clause. If you missed it, too bad.
The rules have now changed and that's just the way it is. It's not like you have to have it to do your job. So, if you don't like the rules, don't play.
I personally want to get my CPF but at least I know I'm not forced to.
Jennifer
Here's the deal, treeves.
The original CPF was a lifetime designation. Those who took, and passed, the test at that time are grandfathered.
After the re-cert program was instituted, those who took, and passed, the test were aware (if they were paying attention) that they would need to re-certify on a regular basis. Nobody changed the rules after the fact.
I think that what you're proposing would involve changing the rules after the fact. I don't understand how that would be more fair.
Honestly, in my current situation, I would probably just let it go if I needed to re-certify. Maybe that's what you need to do - just let it go. This is causing you way too much anguish.
I don't believe that failure to re-certify would diminish your original accomplishment.
[ 03-05-2005, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
The original CPF was a lifetime designation. Those who took, and passed, the test at that time are grandfathered.
After the re-cert program was instituted, those who took, and passed, the test were aware (if they were paying attention) that they would need to re-certify on a regular basis. Nobody changed the rules after the fact.
I think that what you're proposing would involve changing the rules after the fact. I don't understand how that would be more fair.
Honestly, in my current situation, I would probably just let it go if I needed to re-certify. Maybe that's what you need to do - just let it go. This is causing you way too much anguish.
I don't believe that failure to re-certify would diminish your original accomplishment.
[ 03-05-2005, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
Marc Lizer
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Ron,
Just a quick quesiton, since you may know the timeline.
Dind't they change the rule, on paper, but not actually start the actual re-cert program 'till years later?
If memory serves, it was only after PPFA merged, and got it's act together, then PPFA started implementing the re-cert clause.
This may be where a coulpla folks start getting confused.
The paper said it, but PPFA didn't do it. Kinda like an easment across someone's property.
And as you know issues are very tricky. Sometimes you can loose a piece of your land becuase you did not enforce your rights.
If indeed PPFA added a clause, but did not enforce it . . .
Just a quick quesiton, since you may know the timeline.
Dind't they change the rule, on paper, but not actually start the actual re-cert program 'till years later?
If memory serves, it was only after PPFA merged, and got it's act together, then PPFA started implementing the re-cert clause.
This may be where a coulpla folks start getting confused.
The paper said it, but PPFA didn't do it. Kinda like an easment across someone's property.
And as you know issues are very tricky. Sometimes you can loose a piece of your land becuase you did not enforce your rights.
If indeed PPFA added a clause, but did not enforce it . . .
Sorry, Marc, I actually don't remember the timeline. I don't even remember exactly when I was certified, except that it was soon-enough.
I DO remember the words to the 1967 Kellogg's jingle.
Maybe my fuzzy details should prevent me from commenting at all on this issue, but that's never stopped me before.
I DO remember the words to the 1967 Kellogg's jingle.
Maybe my fuzzy details should prevent me from commenting at all on this issue, but that's never stopped me before.
Art On Canvas
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
It's only been a couple of years since I passed my
CPF exam, and I'm already looking forward to taking
the recertification class.
I bet that I learn an awful lot there.
The recertification is just too great of a learning
opportunity for an independant framer to pass up.
CPF exam, and I'm already looking forward to taking
the recertification class.
I bet that I learn an awful lot there.
The recertification is just too great of a learning
opportunity for an independant framer to pass up.
I wish that many more of us would admitt what Ron just did "Maybe my fuzzy details should prevent me from commenting at all on this issue" . It sure made me examin my replies and motives. His sign off is also appropriate,"Stop guessing and get the FACTS". To this end I can never understand why so many of US who are PPFA memebers and could be HH memebers choose to ask these questions to others who aren't ,and probaly have even less first hand information then those of us who are uncertain Memebers.
I say this because there is a source of information at everyones disposal WWW.PPFA@PPFA.COM ,there is also a group with many more informed memebers (HH)and the Web-master( Merrill Grayson) is or was on the Certification Board.
So if I wanted the most definetive answer to all these questions I'd drop them a message or at least ask my question where I might get an even larger selectoin of replies and those would be very likely to be corrected if in error.
But if all I wanted to do was "Stir up the pot" or raise doubts that might not be answered,I'd ask my question in every forum but those.as it seems is being done.
Do youreslf a favor if you have doubt or a valid misunderstanding ask the source or in a forum where you will get the most and moderated answers. Then report your findings everywhere.
That makes sense to me ,what about the rest of you?
BUDDY
I say this because there is a source of information at everyones disposal WWW.PPFA@PPFA.COM ,there is also a group with many more informed memebers (HH)and the Web-master( Merrill Grayson) is or was on the Certification Board.
So if I wanted the most definetive answer to all these questions I'd drop them a message or at least ask my question where I might get an even larger selectoin of replies and those would be very likely to be corrected if in error.
But if all I wanted to do was "Stir up the pot" or raise doubts that might not be answered,I'd ask my question in every forum but those.as it seems is being done.
Do youreslf a favor if you have doubt or a valid misunderstanding ask the source or in a forum where you will get the most and moderated answers. Then report your findings everywhere.
That makes sense to me ,what about the rest of you?
BUDDY
Buddy, thanks for your comments again, I had several folks ask me lots more questions about the CPF designation, "stiring the pot always brought up the good stuff to the top of the pot, any bad stuff you could pick out and throw away".
Sorry Ron If I gave the anguish look, but its been iformative, interesting, and yes entertaing reading all the post, keep it up....
More info came through on these post than before, things are becoming a bit more clear, again this has been a topic of discussion, nothing more on my part and sorry for those who might be getting or having a little nausea, I have enjoyed all the post, and thank Nona especially for her kind, and informative post.
This topic, obviously is not adnauseum to most, but a very interesting topic that deserves discussion and critique. We spend lot of out time preparing and sitting in classes that we hope will improve our ability to be better at our craft. Keep up the discussion but don't get sick or upset, enjoy the post and have a great day, its sunshine and 64 here in the southeast today.
Sorry Ron If I gave the anguish look, but its been iformative, interesting, and yes entertaing reading all the post, keep it up....
More info came through on these post than before, things are becoming a bit more clear, again this has been a topic of discussion, nothing more on my part and sorry for those who might be getting or having a little nausea, I have enjoyed all the post, and thank Nona especially for her kind, and informative post.
This topic, obviously is not adnauseum to most, but a very interesting topic that deserves discussion and critique. We spend lot of out time preparing and sitting in classes that we hope will improve our ability to be better at our craft. Keep up the discussion but don't get sick or upset, enjoy the post and have a great day, its sunshine and 64 here in the southeast today.
puttyboy
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Buddy
I don't think we need to be taking this so seriously. Theres nothing wrong with the pot being stirred as long as its done with good intention, and I certainly don't see doubt or misunderstanding ( of course, Ive been hit on the head with a golf club and didn't see that.) in TReeves post.
I feel the true problem is getting framers to get certification in the first place. Since its voluntary by necessity, with no enforcing body capable of shutting down a non-cpf shop, how does the PPFA convice those framers to test? Its impossible to make that happen unless there were drastic regulations put on the industry as there are in many other industries. A pilot can't fly without his license, you can't drive legally without your license, an electrician can't wire legally w/o a license....and on and on.
I certainly don't endorse regulation and would be wholly against it just for the record.
Anyways, let the pot be stirred, good ideas come out of it. Lively discussion occurs, viewpoints are exchanged, and in some cases, changed. Thats what its all about.
I don't think we need to be taking this so seriously. Theres nothing wrong with the pot being stirred as long as its done with good intention, and I certainly don't see doubt or misunderstanding ( of course, Ive been hit on the head with a golf club and didn't see that.) in TReeves post.
I feel the true problem is getting framers to get certification in the first place. Since its voluntary by necessity, with no enforcing body capable of shutting down a non-cpf shop, how does the PPFA convice those framers to test? Its impossible to make that happen unless there were drastic regulations put on the industry as there are in many other industries. A pilot can't fly without his license, you can't drive legally without your license, an electrician can't wire legally w/o a license....and on and on.
I certainly don't endorse regulation and would be wholly against it just for the record.
Anyways, let the pot be stirred, good ideas come out of it. Lively discussion occurs, viewpoints are exchanged, and in some cases, changed. Thats what its all about.
Jerry Ervin
PFG, Picture Framing God
How does the PPFA convince me to sign up for another year?
One reason to sign up is that you have a forum to express ideas with other framers, all of which, I believe, are very interested in improving themselves as framers, as well as becoming better informed on all aspect of the framing business. The annual fee is very small considerng the info available for you to access and use.
dave moen
Grumbler
that is really a good point, as quality is often subjective. however, the real question, is does the customer even know of the certification, does the customer even care about the certification and the key question will the customer pay more money to work with a "certified" professional...
best regards,
dave moen
best regards,
dave moen
B. Newman
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Well, they've just convinced me with the marketing/business info that is in the newsletter and inserts.
Good stuff, there.
Betty
I believe so.
I'm NOT a CPF, but my business partner is. I have seen numerous people come in because the certification is mentioned on our advertisements, and they "want to make sure it is being done right". More often this is the case with higher end projects.
I would guess that many customers don't understand what's behind getting or maintaining this designation, but the value added service is implied. The customer will likely spend more on the best treatment and material available at the time. (improved glass, matting, hinging/mounting methods, etc) It promotes confidence in the framer's education and makes the sale easier to close.
Just my 2.5 cents
Mike
ERIC
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2001
- Posts
- 1,851
- Location
- New York's Hudson River Valley
- Business
- Newburgh Mercantile
Well, does the customer really pay more?
Does the CPF charge more for a paper mat? or do they simply not sell the paper mat? (you do know what a paper mat is, right?)
Does the the non-CPF charge less for a 24K finnished corner frame? or does the CPF jack up the price in order to cover the cost of his test and membership?
Does the non-CPF just give away for free the japanese hinges, 8 ply rag backing & museum glass? After all, how can he charge for the special materials and techniques he is 'un'-certified for? He must not even know what they do,
since after all, he never took the test.I find it absolutely rediculous to say that things cost more at a CPF because or the certification. A CPF (and any good framer as well) is likely to do better work, and the customer gets everything he pays for.
Does it cost more to drive to work in a Jag?
Do you think people will actually PAY for that?!?
If anything the cost of framing should go down for the CPF, as he or she obtains the knowledge and skills that would make them much more efficient.
A lot of trial and error has to happen unless you have the skills and resources to handle a job properly, not to mention where to buy all the materials and at the most economical price.
A lot of trial and error has to happen unless you have the skills and resources to handle a job properly, not to mention where to buy all the materials and at the most economical price.
gemsmom
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2000
- Posts
- 3,576
How about CPF's who get the education, get tested, pass, and then don't use what they have learned?
I had a CPF tell me just today that she dry mounts stitchery whenever she can because "it's still reversable, even if it is dry mounted". This is only one example of what I have come across in my career.
Sometimes, Eric, a customer would pay more when I did the work, because I prided myself in doing the work correctly. Lacing a needlework costs more than pinning, buffered backing paper costs more than black kraft, lining a frame costs more than leaving it unlined, etc.
I had a CPF tell me just today that she dry mounts stitchery whenever she can because "it's still reversable, even if it is dry mounted". This is only one example of what I have come across in my career.
Sometimes, Eric, a customer would pay more when I did the work, because I prided myself in doing the work correctly. Lacing a needlework costs more than pinning, buffered backing paper costs more than black kraft, lining a frame costs more than leaving it unlined, etc.
G
Gumbogirl
Guest
Holy cow. Pamela, did that CPF learn to frame at a BB?
I have encountered framers that learned their skills at a BB and because they are "certified" by that BB program, you cannot tell 'em any other way. Having said that, it is my understanding that Mike's has CPF's write that certification program. Is that really possible?
Speaking of CERTIFIED -
I hate that the term "certified" is used for the BB training. Those customers that are fresh from getting a quote at Mike's tend to compare the "CPF" to the other "certified" framer they just talked to. I hate to start there, would rather start with the mat colors...
I just start selling the framing, and hope that my knowledge base is adequate to show them the difference.
I have encountered framers that learned their skills at a BB and because they are "certified" by that BB program, you cannot tell 'em any other way. Having said that, it is my understanding that Mike's has CPF's write that certification program. Is that really possible?
Speaking of CERTIFIED -
I hate that the term "certified" is used for the BB training. Those customers that are fresh from getting a quote at Mike's tend to compare the "CPF" to the other "certified" framer they just talked to. I hate to start there, would rather start with the mat colors...
I just start selling the framing, and hope that my knowledge base is adequate to show them the difference.
This is becoming sillier by the minute.
CPFs should charge less because they work more efficiently?
The CPF designation doesn't cause better framers - it's a symptom. People (not all people, but many) who are serious about framing tend to read the trades, take classes, attend trade shows, join the trade association and challenge themselves with certification. A whole lot of them participate in The Grumble.
You all can roll out the exceptions, but I think that's a fair generalization.
CPFs should charge less because they work more efficiently?
The CPF designation doesn't cause better framers - it's a symptom. People (not all people, but many) who are serious about framing tend to read the trades, take classes, attend trade shows, join the trade association and challenge themselves with certification. A whole lot of them participate in The Grumble.
You all can roll out the exceptions, but I think that's a fair generalization.
gemsmom
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2000
- Posts
- 3,576
I know all about M's certification.
This was a bonafide PPFA Certified Picture Framer I was talking to.
Efficient? Anyone can be more efficient just by having their workshop laid out properly. Or do you mean speed? I think speed has more to do with stamina than efficincy. I have to pace myself during the day. I am efficient, and I work steady, but I don't think I am fast. At my age, a steady pace is better. Too fast, and I'm done in by 2:00p.m. I can't even work two days in a row anymore without feeling it. It is tough to get old(er).
This was a bonafide PPFA Certified Picture Framer I was talking to.
Efficient? Anyone can be more efficient just by having their workshop laid out properly. Or do you mean speed? I think speed has more to do with stamina than efficincy. I have to pace myself during the day. I am efficient, and I work steady, but I don't think I am fast. At my age, a steady pace is better. Too fast, and I'm done in by 2:00p.m. I can't even work two days in a row anymore without feeling it. It is tough to get old(er).
I don't have a dog in this fight, but CPF, as I understand it, means the framer has studied and learned the correct way to frame. The rest is based on the customer's work, and their willingness to pay.
How many really have new customers come in and ask, "What's the CPF mean, anyway?", and if you try to explain all the techniques you had to learn to earn it, how many of their eyes glaze over in about 5 minutes?
Most of 'em just want their work done with the materials the framer and them pick out, and they have reasonable expectation to know you're going to do it right. Or the way THEY want it. If I went to see Dr Smith, it wouldn't matter if he added M.D. to the end of his name, as long as he had his degree in medicine, usually evidenced by that same degree framed as cheaply as possible on the wall. (why DO doctors frame their licenses/degrees in cheap little frames?)
As a civilian, that's the way I see it. If I want a photo of a friend framed, I have a good idea how long it's gonna last, or how long I'm gonna display it. Kids today don't much care for the things that WE cared about, so "frame it in this moulding, let's pick out a coupla mats, some UV glass, and then...Let's Get Ready To Rumble!!"
EDIT: This post in no way is intended to diminish anyone with a CPF. If I strung all the licenses and certifications I earned in 30 years, it'd take 15 minutes to sign my name. Someone said earlier, and I can relate to it, earning the CPF bolsters one's confidence in their ability to DO IT RIGHT! Much like the first class FCC license I got in 1975. I knew that I'd learned what I had to know to do what I was required to do.
dave moen
Grumbler
interesting thoughts... i guess we all have seen lots of certifications come and go over the years. to me it really seems the certifications companies do better then the people getting certified with hopes of greener pastures.
Mick11
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Cant help smiling when I read this thread. Here in the UK someone that is "certified" has a mental illness.Conjures up pictures of a lot of mentally ill framers in the states.
Mick
Mick
Mick, here we might say, in that context, "Marc is certifiable," but - of course - we wouldn't be referring to any particular Marc.
Just a name I picked at random for the purposes of illustration.
Just a name I picked at random for the purposes of illustration.
Mick11
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Did you miss the smily at the end of my post, this is known as tongue in cheek here.
Mick
Mick
Nope.
Did you miss mine?
Did you miss mine?
It seems like ANY discussion about CPF testing quickly comes around to the question, "Is it worth it?" For those who aren't grandfathered, there is the same question involving, "Is it worth the time and expense to be re certified every few years?"
For many, it seems to come down to the question, "Will certification carry more credibility with the customer?" All other things being equal (and they NEVER are) I think it will, but only if CPFs educate their own customers. It's disheartening to hear CPFs say, "My customers never heard of it." Who do you suppose is going to tell them about it, if not you?
And eventually, usually quickly, the question comes up, "Will a CPF certificate allow me to make more money?"
I guess most of our decisions need to be bottom-line driven, but I think a few are still based on personal job satisfaction.
When I was married 25 years ago, I don't remember considering the tax consequences of that action. And, while I'm not married to the PPFA or the certification program, I find that I am happier, better connected and better informed because of them.
Only you can decide whether the same might be true for you.
For many, it seems to come down to the question, "Will certification carry more credibility with the customer?" All other things being equal (and they NEVER are) I think it will, but only if CPFs educate their own customers. It's disheartening to hear CPFs say, "My customers never heard of it." Who do you suppose is going to tell them about it, if not you?
And eventually, usually quickly, the question comes up, "Will a CPF certificate allow me to make more money?"
I guess most of our decisions need to be bottom-line driven, but I think a few are still based on personal job satisfaction.
When I was married 25 years ago, I don't remember considering the tax consequences of that action. And, while I'm not married to the PPFA or the certification program, I find that I am happier, better connected and better informed because of them.
Only you can decide whether the same might be true for you.
nona powers
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Ron, did I ever say "I love you"? Such a bright man. Glad the insurance industry didn't get all of you and you still share with us framers, certified or not. Same with Pamala and isn't Buddy wonderful? The sun rose this morning, no rain, our house is still on this hill, must be a good day.
The CPF designation is proof that the candidate has learned what the program teaches. That is all, and that is enough. The written exam has a failure rate of about 40%, evidence that most framers do not automatically acquire the CPF's knowledge with shop experience.
On the contrary, self-taught framers and those who learned from self-taught framers are seldom as well-informed as they think they are. To put it suscinctly, they don't realize how much they don't know. But that doesn't mean they are disfunctional or deficient as general-purpose framers. It only means they are not as preservation-knowledgeable as CPFs.
The CPF program wasn't developed for promotional purposes. It has always been for framers who want to improve their knowledge. Indeed, CPFs are proven more knowledgeable than average, regardless of how effectively they put their knowledge to work, and consumers who seek credentials are attracted to CPFs for good reason.
The CPF program is a learning platform; it provides a learning plan. Earning the designation is not a one time goal. True to that purpose, the required recertification classes help CPFs keep their learning up to date.
The MCPF program is the next step in qualification, the most demanding hands-on exam in the industry. It requires not only thorough knowledge of preservation framing methods and materials, but advanced manual skills, as well.
To qualify, a candidate must be a currently-recertified CPF. For those of us who were "grandfathered" CPFs, that means we have to take the recertification class and then keep taking it to maintain our MCPF status -- we're no longer "grandfathered". In addition, MCPFs have to attend three PPFA-approved MCPF Maintenence classes every four years.
So, that's four required classes every four years, to maintain the MCPF designation.
PPFA's certification programs aren't for everyone, but those who seek proof of their excellence in framing knowledge & skills know where to get it. That doesn't make them better people, but it does make them better framers.
On the contrary, self-taught framers and those who learned from self-taught framers are seldom as well-informed as they think they are. To put it suscinctly, they don't realize how much they don't know. But that doesn't mean they are disfunctional or deficient as general-purpose framers. It only means they are not as preservation-knowledgeable as CPFs.
The CPF program wasn't developed for promotional purposes. It has always been for framers who want to improve their knowledge. Indeed, CPFs are proven more knowledgeable than average, regardless of how effectively they put their knowledge to work, and consumers who seek credentials are attracted to CPFs for good reason.
The CPF program is a learning platform; it provides a learning plan. Earning the designation is not a one time goal. True to that purpose, the required recertification classes help CPFs keep their learning up to date.
The MCPF program is the next step in qualification, the most demanding hands-on exam in the industry. It requires not only thorough knowledge of preservation framing methods and materials, but advanced manual skills, as well.
To qualify, a candidate must be a currently-recertified CPF. For those of us who were "grandfathered" CPFs, that means we have to take the recertification class and then keep taking it to maintain our MCPF status -- we're no longer "grandfathered". In addition, MCPFs have to attend three PPFA-approved MCPF Maintenence classes every four years.
So, that's four required classes every four years, to maintain the MCPF designation.
PPFA's certification programs aren't for everyone, but those who seek proof of their excellence in framing knowledge & skills know where to get it. That doesn't make them better people, but it does make them better framers.
Pat Murphey
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Jim Miller says it best when describing the value of certification. The issue here is that when members of the "club" exempted themselves from the upgrade in the program - Recertification - they demeaned the value of that upgrade to the CPF designation.
My two cents and one of the reasons that I am not inclined to join the "club" as a new member.
Pat
My two cents and one of the reasons that I am not inclined to join the "club" as a new member.
Pat
You seem to misunderstand, Pat.
The CPF program existed for almost a decade before the recertification requirement was introduced. It came from the suggestions of framers who pointed out that the program didn't keep up with changes in the industry. Well, they were right, and now it does.
But it would have been unfair (and in some states, illegal) to change the rules after the fact; to put new requirements on those who had already met all of the stated rules of the program.
So, the logical answer was to require recertification for those who entered the program after the certain date.
Your reference to "the club" is unclear. What does that term mean?
Pat Murphey
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Jim,
Then use a different designation than CPF - there is a distinction. I was referring to the grandfathered CPF members of PPFA.
Seriously, I am retired from an industry where "recertification" of our licenses was a part of life. My ATR - Airline Transport Rating - was not valid for use without Medical tests and simulator emergency procedures tests every six months and annual line check. Even the lowly private pilots license is no longer valid for use without a biennial test. A requirement that was NOT grandfathered when implemented several years ago. It is nonsense that an organization like PPFA can't upgrade the requirements for a type of certification and not have it apply to all. I suspect that the only legal challenge to a change in rules would have to be based on discrimination. After all PPFA is not a government entity.
Pat
Then use a different designation than CPF - there is a distinction. I was referring to the grandfathered CPF members of PPFA.
Seriously, I am retired from an industry where "recertification" of our licenses was a part of life. My ATR - Airline Transport Rating - was not valid for use without Medical tests and simulator emergency procedures tests every six months and annual line check. Even the lowly private pilots license is no longer valid for use without a biennial test. A requirement that was NOT grandfathered when implemented several years ago. It is nonsense that an organization like PPFA can't upgrade the requirements for a type of certification and not have it apply to all. I suspect that the only legal challenge to a change in rules would have to be based on discrimination. After all PPFA is not a government entity.
Pat