Cost to supply data to POS software publishers

David Waldmann

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This question is for manufacturers/suppliers of material.

How many POS software vendors charge you (the manufacturer/supplier) to supply your data, and how much?

We have had experience with a few that charge nothing, and one that charges what seems to me quite a lot for something that IMHO should be included in the cost of the software, not subsidized by the vendor.

<dnw>
 
One of the major problems is that even when the cost is free to the vendor/supplier they don't supply the information.

Today I called both Crescent and Bainbridge about their not supplying their new price increases to the company I use. They told all their dealers last year that there would be a price increase in January. If they knew what the increase was then, why not give that information to the companies serving the Framers?

This is a problem I have seen for over 10 years.

They don't understand that all we are trying to do is sell their goods. I asked one of them today if they go into a store and pick thing up without knowing the cost. The answer was no. Then why don't they tell us the cost base to use for our retail pricing?

This is also a problem with mouldings. We get samples before the cost is given to the computer people.
 
POS framing software vendors are always quick to point the finger of blame at the moulding and matboard companies when questioned about their lack of timliness in providing updates to their software customers.

Regardless of who is at fault, the retailer is left with late and/or incorrect pricing.

Many years ago we accepted that to have this job done right we would have to do it ourselves. Despite the extra work involved we have never regretted it (see my post under the Do-it-Yourself POS Software topic in this forum).

David, just out of curiousity, would you be willing to share the name of the software company that is charging you for data?
 
Not to make trouble but should the software people charge the vendor or should the vendor charge the software people for their data that the software people are selling? Without the cooperation (giving them free data) of the vendors the software people would not have as many customers would they?
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<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by bearcat99:
David, just out of curiousity, would you be willing to share the name of the software company that is charging you for data?<hr></blockquote>

I'd be glad to. It's Eagle Computers, AKA FullCalc Software.

And thanks Gumby, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

>dnw<

:rolleyes:
 
Does anyone know the correct job title for the person that has the job of supplying the computer software companies with updated information? Or job titles...?

Just last week I called several fairly large manufacturers/distributors re this very thing and got an assortment of results. After some difficulty trying to figure out who should get the voice mail message - I did leave 8 to 10 and got 2 calls back. I'm hoping that the response would have been better if I was "Softouch" or "Frameready", etc. -- but, I am just a customer.

I was just doing this to make sure my biggest suppliers would be updated on my next disk--some of which had not been updated despite some big changes last year....and see who wasn't doing the job -- software or supplier or both. I know my company has complained of not getting updates from suppliers.

On the good side of things -- LJ really does seem to do a great job on this and it would be good for others to learn from them. For one, they have their new stuff on the price list quite some time before the product is released, so when we receive samples, they seem to magically already be in the computer.

Alert to the suppliers from your customers, the frame shops -- be good to the software companies! And, I urge all frame shops to urge your suppliers -- if not, we'll all have higher annual update fees.
 
I called Crescent about their price increase and why they had not supplied it to FrameReady.

The answer was that they didn't have the information ready to send. My question to them was---"If you supplied the price increase to your vendors in November/December---how could it not be ready?" Answer was very not to clear, but it went along the line that they were waiting to see that the other companies did before they sent out price lists and that there was going to be another increase after about March. The other answer was that I should call Larson-Juhl and see what their pricing was after the increase.

I think this is going to be a problem until the framers demand current pricing or we will not pay the increase without the price list. I don't think that will happen, but we need to do something. My customer's will not pay would out the price being given first, so why should we?
 
This is terribly enlightening to me. One of the most compelling reasons for me to switch from my do-it-yourself POS system would be to avoid the long hours of manually updating prices - mostly for moulding and mats - when I receive them. But almost without fail, I have those prices updated within 48 hours of receiving them. Since we usually receive them (in printed form, of course) a few weeks before they go in effect, it sounds like I'm ahead of the game, in least in some cases.
 
Here is my two cents. We will be purchasing pos software shortly and it looks like specialty soft will be the one. I had assumed that the yearly charge that the pos companies impose is to cover the cost of updates ect. Will our suppliers be forced to increase prices to cover the cost that the pos people charge them?
Also in question to William's post; Why would Crescent send price updates in? My cost of a rag mat is very different from vendor to vendor. Would I not go by the Larson mat price download if I buy my mats from Larson?
And about the point of waiting too long for price updates, I would be satisfied to wait slightly longer for price updates because the way we're doing it now, we'll be lucky to implement price changes six months from now. We seem to absorb the slight price increases for about a year after.
 
Originally posted by lise:
Here is my two cents. We will be purchasing pos software shortly and it looks like specialty soft will be the one. I had assumed that the yearly charge that the pos companies impose is to cover the cost of updates ect. Will our suppliers be forced to increase prices to cover the cost that the pos people charge them?
Also in question to William's post; Why would Crescent send price updates in? My cost of a rag mat is very different from vendor to vendor. Would I not go by the Larson mat price download if I buy my mats from Larson?
And about the point of waiting too long for price updates, I would be satisfied to wait slightly longer for price updates because the way we're doing it now, we'll be lucky to implement price changes six months from now. We seem to absorb the slight price increases for about a year after.
It seems that there is some confusion about "charges" through the various POS software companies. It is true that a FEW of the POS companies do and will charge those mat and moulding wholesalers a fee to post their price updates on their website or to place those updates on a CD and mail it to THEIR software users.

Most POS software companies DO NOT follow this procedure, however. I have talked to the developers of the program that I am currently using, FrameReady v.4.01, and they have never and will never in the future charge the wholesalers to publish their pricing updates in a format that can be used by the FrameReady program to automatically update prices. Now they DO charge a program maintenance fee for all of their software users which includes free updates of supplier prices and updates in the software program itself. But this charge is made by most all of the POS software companies to their subscribers of their software.

Getting back to FrameReady it is their contention that posting these updates on their website for the users of FrameReady to download is good for THEIR business and it is good for the WHOLESALER'S business also. If I want to check out the price structure of another frame supplier, what better way to do it than to download their pricing updates to my FrameReady program and take a look?? Chances are good that I may decide to add that supplier to my inventory and THEY have picked up a new customer at that time.

You are located in Canada and FrameReady is also located in Canada which, IMHO, is a win/win situation from the get go. With your tax matrix in Canada, which varies from province to province, I would think that the built in compensation for that tax matrix in the FrameReady updates is a Godsend for all Canadians who need that complex taxing structure built into their updates. Unless I am not understanding the way it works, I would take a good hard look at that program simply because I don't think that many of the U.S. based software companies take that tax matrix into consideration when they publish their update information.

Just some thoughts on this software issue and who is charging who.
 
Originally posted by William Ross:
I called Crescent about their price increase and why they had not supplied it to FrameReady.

The answer was that they didn't have the information ready to send. My question to them was---"If you supplied the price increase to your vendors in November/December---how could it not be ready?" Answer was very not to clear, but it went along the line that they were waiting to see that the other companies did before they sent out price lists and that there was going to be another increase after about March. The other answer was that I should call Larson-Juhl and see what their pricing was after the increase.

I think this is going to be a problem until the framers demand current pricing or we will not pay the increase without the price list. I don't think that will happen, but we need to do something. My customer's will not pay would out the price being given first, so why should we?
This is also interesting because I have received all of the newest frame samples that LJ has come out with as soon as they became available and I have never had one instance where I had to add the prices of these new mouldings to my database in FrameReady. They were already there.

If Crescent is beating around the bush about the long wait between actually raising their prices and issuing those price increases to the public or to the software people, that tells me a few things about the business ethics of Crescent Cardboard Co. Inc.

If a certain mat or moulding company wants to play games with their pricing then it is up to the front line people, ie., WE THE FRAMERS, to lean on them until they feel the squeeze. And the little guy CAN make a difference.

I keep 2 lines of matboards and 3 lines of moulding in my gallery. If I am getting jacked around by Crescent, for example, I will push Artique or dig out my large rack of Bainbridge and push them in a New York minute!! And it makes ME feel good even if it doesn't get Crescent's attention.

But if 500 framers quit buying a certain brand of mat board and go to some other brand for just 6 months, can you imagine how that might look on the gross profit for those 2 quarters for the offending company? I guess I might buy about 300 boards in six months. I am a little shop. You multiply that by 500 and you have a chunk of change out of the pockets of that mat company who insisted on playing games with prices and updates. Now THAT is power in the hands of the little guy. And if you don't believe that then you could simply stay on the porch with the other pups.

Framerguy
 
As a distributor we typically get notified in November of price increase that will occur in the first quarter of the year. This notice however does not tell us what the price increases will be. We then get a letter that tells us what date the price increase will take effect and some general price increase amounts.

We then get a price increase letter that spells out the %'s of various increases on various boards, mouldings ect. and you take a week to change the prices in the computer. Once this is done we can export a CSV file of the prices and send it via e-mail to the POS suppliers.

I get many calls from customers wanting to know why our prices or new items are not in a particular POS vendors new disc or download.

Usually it is determined by when we sent the file and if it makes the current update. Sometimes the information has been at the POS vendor for weeks before it is downloaded and posted.

I will supply an excel file to any customer that needs the information right away but I'd really like to see framer's put pressure on the POS vendors to update list's continually. The information is there, they just need to load it.

I'm not sure how Crescent's MIS department contructs their price list and I don't think they're dragging their feet. Some of these tasks take some time, like increasing prices on over 10,000 items.

I also have customers that have POS systems but are not internet connected. Therefore they have to wait for the POS company to download information, format it, and burn discs. In the mean time there have been changes which do not make your current CD. Download monthly on the POS systems and this shouldn't be a problem. For those who are internet challenged then the cost for the line ($19.95 in my area, + internet service $9.95 per month) will pay for itself the first price increase that occurs.

John Richards
TC Moulding
 
UPDATE:
I called FrameReady today to verify the fact that Cresent was not going to release their prices before March. The answer was yes--no pricing information. FrameReady up loads daily to their web site and any new information would only that about 24 hours to get on line to the framer.

Question: If the POS software publishers can post the pricing information for 100's of vendors (including all the matboard companies) in a very short time, why can't the matboard suppliers post their pricing? I think we can read between the lines---they don't want the other companies to know just how much they plan to up the pricing.

If we stoped purchasing boards it would onlt hirt our vendors who stock the mats, not Cresent or BB.
The company wouldn't feel it for months.

The answer is for all of us to call Cresent and DEMAND PRICING INFORMATION.
 
Crescent will glady give you actual prices, current and updated prices. That is, If you have an account with Crescent. Of course the prices will be rated at your customer level. For instance, what I pay for 500 sheets from Crescent will be different from what Valley Mldg pays for 500 sheets. Of course, if you are a "by the sheet" buyer, and purchase from a distributor, then the improtant price for you is the Distributors selling price.
Crescent, or any Manufacturer wil give accurate prices to its customers. Mainly it's customers are distributors and OEM's, and on the off chance I have an order large enought to think about ordering direct, small fry's like me.
For the most part, I am an EndUser of Crescent Product. And not a Cresenct customer Per Se.
Granted, Crescent will feel every framer who uses the product to be a customer, but they do not sell to them directly.

It is like a Fridge. GE does not sell it to me. I buy it from a GE distributor. The Store quotes me prices, irrespective of what GE's selling price to them is. Different Distributors have different price purchase levels, based on volume. And different Distributors take different margins on product.
 
Now for a bit of unFrankenthreading:

After getting the most recent software update, I was concerned that if FulCalc is charging vendors (at a 200 to 230% increase from the year before), and if a vendor who chooses not to pay they would be purged / dumped from my database.

So I called FulCalc and asked who on my vendors list will be automatically dumped and purged without my consent during the "Update?"

The person told me two things: Vendors who do not pay, are not being dumped. The info is just stale. So this means, if the vendor provides the info, but not the bucks. I don't get data. This is contrary to the advertising of FulCalc, where it says the best Bennie of the program is the ability to have up-to-date pricing. But because of a policy of charging vendors for info, a policy unique among the software providers, I lose out. I am sorry, but FulCalc has succeeded in "Moving The Cheese." Instead of Hemming and Hawing, I will follow the example of Hem, and seek out new cheese.

The other thing the person told me was only one vendor was being PURGED. Raphael's Fabrics .
The person said it is not because they have not paid the money. The person said it is not because they have not provided information. The person said it was a decision made by Eagle Management.

So now I lose vendor information from a Managment decision? Not even from the stupid vendor fee?

If I am going to get Screwed , Blued and Tattooed, I at least want to have a good time doing it!

Can anyone tell me where the fun is in this situation? :
 
Marc,

Reminds me of an old spiritual done by Johnny Cash (and a few hundred others)

"I saw the liiiiight, I saw the liiiiight, no moooore darknesss, no more fright."
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(baaarrrrooowwww!!)(cute little flop earred puppy)

Take a look at FrameReady, Marc, it just may fill your needs. You can call Bert de Roo, the developer of the program, and fire any questions at him that you can come up with and he will answer truthfully and completely. I am really impressed with the friendly support that Carol and Bert give to their customers. You can tell right away that they really care and want to keep you on their team.

Bert's phone # is 888-281-3303.

FGII
 
Marc,

Give Framerguy's suggestion a good think. One can never be absolutely certain, but I get the impression that Carol, Evelyn, and Bert are committed and are going to be around for a while.

I downloaded FrameReady and another good similar program recently and worked through the user guides completely, then made the choice to go with FrameReady.

A selling point of which I was not aware at the time I bought, is their decision to make training--beginning and advanced--available at the trade shows. I attended while in LV and was most favorably impressed. This is a great way to learn from the developers and from fellow users, and then be able to go onto the advanced material at a later date. Also, they do solicit wishlist items, and according to longer time users than I, follow through and improve the program accordingly.

They're also just plain nice people, too, which is also a good business asset. :cool:

Marcia
 
As a vendor this is news to me that you have to pay FullCalc to be listed "current". I have not received any communication from them that they have changed policy. However, I did get a message from one of my CSR's today that it appeared that pricing was incorrect on our mouldings from FullCalc. "Stale" info, maybe so! I'll investigate Monday when I get back to Minneapolis. If they are charging, I'm sorry in advance to my customers....you will not be getting new pricing on TCM products.

John
 
Update on my Crescent Pricing Post. Larson Juhl send us a new matboard price sheet dated March 18--when they will change prices---big increase.

As for FullCalc, we moved to FrameReady last year after FullCalc raised their update service cost (FrameReady is only $150 after the first free year) They update on the internet and post within 24-48 hours of price release. The other nice thing is you can design your own SPECIAL reports, if needed. H.B. Williamson added new items and some price adjustments on Wednesday--they were on my download tonight, that's service.
 
Over the past week I have observed numerous postings which touched on the topic of Picture Framing Software. As a supplier to the Picture Framing Industry I have several comments which I would like to share with all of you, both to set the record straight, and to perhaps help those of you who may be considering (or re-considering) such a purchase.

Comment #1
My company, Raphael’s, provides every software vendor known to us with complete product pricing information and we update our information as often as we have pricing changes. (October of 2001 was the latest update we sent out). We do not charge for this information and we provide it on an absolutely equal basis to every Vendor. At least until just recently, I believe we were the only provider of fabrics and liners which had done the work required to be included in ALL of them. Our Pricing information is given to each company in the manner they request it , with the info presented on the basis they request (for example, pricing in terms of Cost Per United Inch or Cost Per Square Inch), and delivered to them via the method they prefer (via e-mail or on a disk). We do this entirely for the sake of our customer’s convenience. We believe, perhaps mistakenly, that every program out there has at least one of our Customers using it.

Comment #2
There has been some mention of fees charged Industry Suppliers by one or more Software providers for the privilege of having their information included in the program. While Raphael’s has paid such fees, and would continue to do so, again for the sake of our Customers, if I were a Framer I would have a couple of problems with Software providers who adopt this policy. First of all, as a Framer using one of these programs, I wouldn’t want to think there was ANYTHING which might keep any one of my suppliers from having their information included in the program. As has been mentioned in some of the postings, some suppliers may not be willing or able to justify the payment of such a toll, especially one which appears to be increasing each year. Looking a little further down the road however, I would not want to be faced with the possibility that my software vendor might choose to take advantage of their position as gatekeeper to limit or bar access participation for ANY purpose which might conflict with my desire to see the program be all inclusive. Even the thought of there being anything but the most cooperative relationship between the suppliers of the product information and the software vendors who in essence re-sell me the information in a more useable form, would greatly diminish my willingness to rely on such a program. On the other hand, if I am assured by my software vendor that all Suppliers who are willing to provide their information in the appropriate form will be included in the program, then I will no longer have to be the victim of software vendor and industry supplier blaming each other for a problem which mostly seems to hurt me, the Framer.

I have seen quite a few postings where Framers pass along comments made
by both sides of such a dispute and unfortunately they frequently just muddy up the water when it comes to the truth. Let me tell you how you can shake the truth out for yourself. If you have Suppliers at this point, who, after being given several years to prepare, have not at least provided their product information to those Software Vendors such as Specialty Soft, Frame Ready, Lifesaver, or others, who are ready, willing and able to assist them in doing so and which DO NOT charge for the inclusion of their information, I would be inclined to discount their claims of hardship. Likewise, if you have a Supplier whose information is not available in your particular software program and your Software Provider claims the problem lies with the Industry Supplier, see if that Supplier’s information is available in other Software programs. Most of the Software companies list the Suppliers included in their programs at their web sites. It would be a rare case that one of your Suppliers provides this information to one of the Software companies and then chooses not to get some more mileage out of all the work they did to put it all together. With about 15,000 products priced out in Raphael’s electronic price list, perhaps it was more of a burden for us to get everything set up, but we know the benefits to Customers easily justify this cost. This leads me to my third and final comment.

Comment #3

There is a great deal of difference between the various companies providing Picture framing software when it comes to what they do with the information provided them by Suppliers. The same can also be said for how they deal with customer suggestions for additional functionality. All of these companies charge fees in one form or another for keeping supplier information current and complete, for support beyond a basic amount, and for what I would describe as ‘Continuing Improvement’ of their programs. They should charge these fees, and you should be happy to pay them, with one proviso. Does the program continue to improve? Computers are machines, software is people. These days almost any new computer will have enough capability (speed / storage) to meet your needs for the foreseeable future. Looking at software on the other hand, almost no program out there will meet all of your needs today. The question is, will it be capable of growing with you, improving over time, learning from experience, or will it be a handicap you simply learn to live with. In an industry which has so much innovation occurring at such a non-stop pace, the people behind the software make all the difference. I am not just referring to the people who answer the support hot lines, though they are also important, I am primarily speaking about the people run the company. Does future development always remain in the future? Have new features been developed and integrated into the program or is your ‘wish’ list the only place you see much growth. When most of the currently available Programs came out they were filled with ‘one size fits all ‘ or even worse, the dreaded ‘lowest common denominator’ approach to handling various tasks. My personal pet peeve among these was the business of pricing everything in terms of ‘Cost per United Inch.’ Sure this had a kind of universal simplicity to it, kind of like counting on your fingers and toes, everyone can use ‘em, right? But while United Inches might be a great way to price Moulding, or Glass or even Matboard, so long as you’re also given the size limitations of each, when it comes to pricing things where orientation is involved, like on a Fabric-Wrapped Mat for example, it is useless. Without my getting too detailed here, think about doing a 24 X 30 mat on which you wish to have the grain run horizontally. If your mat is for a vertical piece you will need an inch or two more than 30" of fabric, if it is a horizontal piece you can get by with an inch or two over 24". Both mats have a United Inches total of 54. One will be incorrectly costed in programs using the CPUI approach.
To get back to my point though, I don’t believe I’ve ever heard a Customer tell me “This program has every feature I could ever imagine and I was able to begin using it the same day I bought it.” As a relatively new specialty being developed for a relatively small industry, much of this software could be considered ‘a work in progress.’ Since understanding the workings of computers and their software is very much also ‘a work in progress’ for most of us as well, it takes us a while to become comfortable with almost any program. As you become more aware of the program’s many features and capable of using them, do you see the company continuing to add useful features? If you’ve been using a framing software program for a year or more, here’s a good question to ask yourself. Which of these two attitudes seems to characterize your software provider: 1)” We are constantly working to make our program the most comprehensive yet friendly program available and our commitment to this goal can be seen in the quality of our support personnel as well as in the addition of all these new capabilities over the past 18 months.” OR 2) “Our program is used by more frame shops than any other and has all the features that framers really need. We’re planning to raise the cost of support again this year to cover the cost of having to answer all the stupid questions people keep bugging us with.” One of these companies is working to continue to earn your business, the other is banking on the fact that most people have to make such an emotional, intellectual and, of course, financial investment, in their software that they will do almost anything to avoid having to go through it again. Additional questions to consider might be “What sort of Framing Experience has the development team had” or “Where does ACME Framing Software try out potential changes or enhancements.” Do you really have time to try and explain framing to their support person or be a crash test dummy? While I will not give you a recommendation of a single program or company (Raphael’s intends to do our best to provide all of these companies with as much information and support as they request) , I can tell you without a doubt that there is a great deal of difference between our Industry’s providers of software in each of these areas. If you’d like to get so more input on which company is right for you, there’s one more thing you can do. Take a look back through comments posted at the Hitchhiker site or here at “the Grumble”. There’s a fairly noticeable pattern in the comments posted by your fellow Framers about the various Software providers which might help you see the light.

Scott Brummitt
Raphael’s Inc.
 
Scott, Thank you for a very complete and honest posting and welcome to the grumble. I use my own software currently but will probably change to one of the commercial ones in the forseeable future. Comments from concerned industry professionals are always welcome and in the long run will make the decision process that much easier.
Thanks again!
 
I also really enjoyed your post and hope you post more frequently. I like having the distributor/supplier view from time to time.

IMHO I don't think it was Wrong for the software companies to charge suppliers initially. I bet there was some "support" activities. There was a lot of work (for both sides) getting the concept of a "pricing update" working. And, I'm sure both sides benefited. I just think it is out of date....

IMHO there is some great competition software out there that has in effect benefited from that work and are now promoting their versions....probably better versions.....and we are all hoping the companies "make it" and continue to service our needs.

Dropping (for any reason) a broadly used & respected supplier is NOT servicing our needs.
 
Let's see... Aproximately 25,000 custom framers in the U.S.; maybe 25-35% using some sort of POS software; 5 or 6 "major" software suppliers to the industry; number of (current, paying) customers of the "top" software supplier: 2,000? 3,000? Where's the long-term FINANCIAL incentive for any of these guys to make "software that doesn't suck"? We're talking about a VERY amall niche market here. What's the dream for these guys? Totally dominate the market by 2010 and have 10,000 customers paying a yearly maintenace fee of a few hundred bucks each?

I hate to admit it, but in a way it's remarkable the POS framing software out there is as good as it is--and that we have any choice at all.
 
Let's just play for a moment shall we?

Let's just say the re-fee from one company is USD400.00

And let's say they have 10 customers. That's 400,0.00

And even 100 customers. That's 40,000.00

And then 1000 customers. That's 400,000.00

And let's say, as you say, 2 to 3 thousand customers. That's 800,000.00 or 1.2Million, in just fees to users. This does not include new purchases. Nor does it include the Vendor fee, of let's say USD400.00.

So let's say there are, just to make the numbers nice and round, 250 or so of them suckers out there, and you just added another 100k to the equation

So from the 1.3Mil yearly, you can derive a pretty good long term financial incentive?

Hmmmmmmmmmm, you get to the 10,000 customer mark, and you really shoot the numbers up thru the roof. This does not include other income streams the software can generate. You can, for instance, as a company, decide to sell the source code to your largest customer as a one-time cash generator. You can also develop an ordering program where you get a gate-keeper fee for every order processed. You could even charge vendors additional fees to develop the gate-keeper program. But then again, this is, as you say, a niche market.
 
So,.............................................

Budgeted out at 100,000 a month expenses, you still have 100K left over. Unless there are thirteen months this year.

Last year vendor fees raised about 100%. Lets use a more modest number, like say 10% for both they users and vendors. That just added $130.000 to next years budget. So even if there are thirteen months next year, thy'll make out just fine. But you don't think with gains to be had like that, the increase will be a modest 10%? When for just 15% you could hit 200k extra?

It's like printing money! :eek:
 
I just took at look at http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=000041&p=
I guess you could add $100.00 to the 3000 fictional user number and we just added another 300,000.00 to the 1.3 mil, making it 1.6mil. Add 15% fictional support increse next year and it is 1.84 mil 'en niche.

But it is late and my numbers could be totally whacked out. But what else can be expected of me? <BLINK>
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</BLINK>
 
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