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Hoffmann Dovetail Joining System

Corners Separating Issue - Needing expert advice

SuperstarMaltman

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Oct 13, 2020
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Hello Guys - First time Grumbler here

I need an experts opinion on an issue we are having please
We have just started framing and employed an experienced framer to lead the project - We do memorabilia so its shirts, gloves and photos etc

Any way our frames are constantly coming apart at the corners along the joints - all four joints - i have attached a few pics as an example

We use polecore and v pins on an under pinner

Framer is telling us its down to packaging and mishandling from the courier - but i feel it may be something closer to home.
Can someone please advise so we can sort it and stop this problem

Thank You

Rob


break2.png break.png
 

framah

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What glue are you using?

..and I agree with you, it is closer to home.

Glued properly with the correct type for poly mldgs, you should never see that.
 

SuperstarMaltman

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What glue are you using?

..and I agree with you, it is closer to home.

Glued properly with the correct type for poly mldgs, you should never see that.
Thank you for answering so quickly
We don't use any glue
Just the V pins (approx 3 -4 per corner)
 

framah

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..annd THERE is you answer!!

You must use glue made for poly mldgs. Interesting that your "experienced" framer doesn't know that.

Crazy glue of the gel type as it doesn't run and drip on the frame surface.
 

SuperstarMaltman

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..annd THERE is you answer!!

You must use glue made for poly mldgs. Interesting that your "experienced" framer doesn't know that.

Crazy glue of the gel type as it doesn't run and drip on the frame surface.
Very interesting indeed isn't it

I am questioning more and more every day - thank you for your help, I knew there was something in house (either hes lying or he doesn't know)

So gel type glue then? can i be cheeky and ask for your advice on a quality glue please?
 
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snafu

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wpfay

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The glue designed for poly mouldings actually melts the poly resulting in a welded corner. I use PlastiBond 1500 from FrameWare. www.framewareinc.com
Use a minimum number of V-nails, and avoid getting glue on the exterior of the frame as it will damage the finish. if done properly, the body of the frame will break before the joint does.

In theory, the V-nails serve to both hold the joint together while the glue sets, and as a failsafe to keep the frame together should the joint fail. They are not the primary reason the joint stays together.
 

SuperstarMaltman

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The glue designed for poly mouldings actually melts the poly resulting in a welded corner. I use PlastiBond 1500 from FrameWare. www.framewareinc.com
Use a minimum number of V-nails, and avoid getting glue on the exterior of the frame as it will damage the finish. if done properly, the body of the frame will break before the joint does.

In theory, the V-nails serve to both hold the joint together while the glue sets, and as a failsafe to keep the frame together should the joint fail. They are not the primary reason the joint stays together.
Excellent news
Thank You

I will put this too the directors - as they still believe every word our 'experienced' framer says - including that he framed for the queen

I KNEW he was wrong - i just didnt know the details

Thank you - we can stop losing money now
 
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SuperstarMaltman

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He framed for the Queen??????????

A blind 3rd grader could do better than him.

See what I am dealing with here!!!!

I work in digital marketing and I can see it

Like I said
I just needed the info from the experts to back up my theory

You guys have been very helpful
 

framah

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Maybe the Queen has cataracts. :faintthud:

Maybe the queen in Alice in Wonderland.


OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!!
 

Larry Peterson

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If your board still has qualms, let them view this thread and remind them that the comments here are written by REAL Professional Picture Framers from all over the world with zillions of years of experience.
 

SuperstarMaltman

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If your board still has qualms, let them view this thread and remind them that the comments here are written by REAL Professional Picture Framers from all over the world with zillions of years of experience.
In all seriousness - this is exactly why I am here
I am learning to do the job myself (
 
Hoffmann Dovetail Joining System

SuperstarMaltman

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Learning to do it myself (not as a full timer but enough
If your board still has qualms, let them view this thread and remind them that the comments here are written by REAL Professional Picture Framers from all over the world with zillions of years of experience.
as i was saying - learning to do the job myself (not as a full timer - but as a back up hand) but i know a fraud when i see one - I will be making the most of this resource and i thank everyone who has took the time to help here - there will be screen shots to support my case
 

tedh

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I’ve joined and sold hundreds, if not thousands of plastic frames. None have been returned for failure, and I’ve repaired dozens of frames I didn’t sell that failed due to mechanical reasons - falling mostly. I use that yellow pipe glue used by plumbers. My advice to you is to call your molding supplier and ask them what bonding agent they recommend.

The yellow stuff has to be handled carefully, because if it oozes out to the face, it will destroy the finish.

In any case, v-nails by themselves are totally inadequate.
 

SuperstarMaltman

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I’ve joined and sold hundreds, if not thousands of plastic frames. None have been returned for failure, and I’ve repaired dozens of frames I didn’t sell that failed due to mechanical reasons - falling mostly. I use that yellow pipe glue used by plumbers. My advice to you is to call your molding supplier and ask them what bonding agent they recommend.

The yellow stuff has to be handled carefully, because if it oozes out to the face, it will destroy the finish.

In any case, v-nails by themselves are totally inadequate.
This is what we are finding - I need to source a glue from somewhere - thank you
 

CHolt

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Nov 20, 2012
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Get in touch with the sales representative for the moulding that you use. Hopefully they will have additional technical information that you need to support your conclusion. If they say something like, "no glue is required", maybe it's time to find another source for moulding. Nothing is so cheap that you can afford to do every job twice or more. Also refer to the technical manual for your underpinner regarding v-nail placement. What type is it? If you need it, that manual or a link to it will be probably posted on this site.
 

SuperstarMaltman

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Get in touch with the sales representative for the moulding that you use. Hopefully they will have additional technical information that you need to support your conclusion. If they say something like, "no glue is required", maybe it's time to find another source for moulding. Nothing is so cheap that you can afford to do every job twice or more. Also refer to the technical manual for your underpinner regarding v-nail placement. What type is it? If you need it, that manual or a link to it will be probably posted on this site.
This is very helpful
The underpinner is a foreign beast to me! So I think we will trial glue first before messing with Thst 😂
 
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framah

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At a minimum, a thick version of Crazy Glue will work.
 

CHolt

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This is very helpful
The underpinner is a foreign beast to me! So I think we will trial glue first before messing with Thst 😂
Give that another thought. Correctly nailing the corners is at least as important as gluing. The beast's manual has the information you need and I'm sure the posters on here can help you interpret.

Crazy glue is a type of cyanoacrylate adhesive, or CA glue. It's sold under many brands, thin to thick consistancy. I don't join styrene, so I dont really know the answer, but an earlier relpy also recommended Plasitbond glue and linked to a source.
 

wpfay

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wpfay

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Their page also lists Undo next to the glues. Is that something that can clean glue that squeezed out of the joint?
Undo is a Lacquer Thinner based solvent and would damage the surface of the poly mouldings. It was used primarily in lifting spray mounted or dry mounted photography. It is fairly hazardous to use and with new reversible mounting options really has no place in a modern frame shop.
 
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Joe B

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Use both glue and the v nails - but definitely use glue - the Queen - really????
 

framah

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"We are NOT Amused!!"
 

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David Hewitt

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A lot of professional advise here, but we really don't know exactly the compound of your moulding, I would suggest contacting the manufacturer as others have said, and find out exactly what adhesive they recommend. This also helps you with liability should a problem occur. You are then following the manufactures suggestions.
 

Larry Peterson

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I wouldn't doubt he framed for the queen, I've frame for the Office of Cabinet Affairs The White House a few weeks ago, we've sold to The Metropolitan Museum of Art for many years now along with many other companies.
That's it, throw those big names around. 😁 Best I can offer is framing for Daveed Diggs's mother. :beer: :thumbsup: :beer:
 
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framah

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Oh yeah?? Well, i have framed for Noel Paul Stookey of Peter Paul & Mary.

Also, the late Terry Goodkind.
..and my Mom!

So, there! :shutup:
 

Larry Peterson

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We should warn you, SuperstarMaltman, that threads sometimes get off track. In Grumble parlance, its called a Frankenthread.

Just part of our charm. :cool:
 

framah

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Somehow I think he'll fit right in. :thumbsup:
 

wpfay

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Well, OK! I've framed for numerous heads of state, corporate leaders, and at least 4 US presidents (not counting the current one), and lots of well known sports figures. Most of what I did is either in their closet, or their garbage. Philistines!
 
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Ylva

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I framed for my kids. Far more important. (also far more critique)

Welcome to the G, Superstar. I too believe you'll fit right in.

Keep us updated.
Any framer worth anything knows that just v-nailing corners without any glue will not create a good lasting bond. I'd question this 'professional framer' extensively.
I don't use poly frames so can't comment too much on that. But glue is necessary when you v-nail.

Don't be afraid of the underpinner. It basically is an upside down stapler. Practice on some off cuts, you'll get familiar with it.
 

Joe B

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I've framed for numerous heads of state, corporate leaders, and at least 4 US presidents (not counting the current one), and lots of well known sports figures.
WOW - Really? :rolleyes:
 

Keith L Hewitt

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Superstar Maltman - the OP is based in UK. This may not have been obvious to some of the people replying as I see they recommend USA sources for glue

I have thought for a long time that it would help everyone if their country of origin was included in the box on the left. As the number of overseas Grumblers hopefully grows this would I believe be a helpful feature. I know the info is immediately available, simply by clicking on the persons name. Any thoughts ?
 

SuperstarMaltman

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SO we have an update guys - i mentioned and screen shotted all your replies - the nice ones, not the mickey taking ones! my directors said they believe we need glue - win!!!!

Then this morning he took apart some frames from some one else - no glue
Mr Framer then told us you don't need glue and my director believes him - despite his own research online

So i either give up - or i prove him wrong

Think we all know which way i will go Here
 
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wpfay

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WOW - Really? :rolleyes:
Yes really, but you truncated my statement and changed its point. They really do end up in storage most of the time, and intended recipient may not even be aware of the item. They have people for that.
I work with a large sports related business that has international events and some of the pieces I have framed for them have gone to the heads of state of those countries participating. Last event count I was framing 62 pieces to be distributed for a single event. One each to the participants and one to each head of state represented by the participants. I've been working with this organization since 1982.
I also work with a not-for-profit that gives small pieces I frame to their major donors and supporters in the federal govt. This includes Senate and House members as well as Administration including POTUS and VPOTUS, as well as some of the top brass in the DoD. I've been working with them for 15 years, so this goes back a few administrations.
Nothing for royalty, yet.
 

framah

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Awesome. Did you meet him?
Yes. He and his wife Betty actually bought 2 of my coastal Maine photos for wedding gifts long ago.
Been a while since they have been in. The last thing he brought in was a photo of them in a tavern booth with Peter and Paul playing chess and Mary looking on.
 
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Ylva

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Superstar Maltman - the OP is based in UK. This may not have been obvious to some of the people replying as I see they recommend USA sources for glue

I have thought for a long time that it would help everyone if their country of origin was included in the box on the left. As the number of overseas Grumblers hopefully grows this would I believe be a helpful feature. I know the info is immediately available, simply by clicking on the persons name. Any thoughts ?

It would help. If everyone fills out their profile completely. Some people like to be hidden.
The information can be found when you hover over someone's profile picture. Everything is right there, again, only if the profile has been filled out by member.
 

Joe B

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Yes really, but you truncated my statement and changed its point.
I'm sorry, I thought you were making a joke...That is a impressive group that you have framed for, I'm jealous
 

SuperstarMaltman

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I think that might have to be your next step then.
contacted - they actually said it doesnt NEED glue but they have it as an option - the plot twists tho - they said use 15mm pins, Mr Framer is using 10mm - so we have a plan - trial with glue, trial with larger pins, fire the framer on charges of lies and being crap
 

CHolt

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OP wrote "Framer is telling us its down to packaging and mishandling from the courier"

This is partly accurate but misses the point. Construction and packaging is inside of our control, but the manner of handling once it leave our facility is not. At my company we do a high volume of off island shipping and know full well that we can't afford to not take every possible measure to assure that our products get to our customers in tact. The monetary and opportunity cost of return shipping, filing damage claims, repairing or replacing goods, and disappointed customers is far too high compared to sound construction and proper packaging. Parcel services throw, slide, drop, flip, stack and whack our products while in transit, it's just their way of handling their volume profitably.
 

SuperstarMaltman

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OP wrote "Framer is telling us its down to packaging and mishandling from the courier"

This is partly accurate but misses the point. Construction and packaging is inside of our control, but the manner of handling once it leave our facility is not. At my company we do a high volume of off island shipping and know full well that we can't afford to not take every possible measure to assure that our products get to our customers in tact. The monetary and opportunity cost of return shipping, filing damage claims, repairing or replacing goods, and disappointed customers is far too high compared to sound construction and proper packaging. Parcel services throw, slide, drop, flip, stack and whack our products while in transit, it's just their way of handling their volume profitably.
Yes this is true

I find it very hard to believe that random mishandling from a courier results in exactly the same problem everytime tho

I used to work in tile delivery and there was a serious amount of breakage, you expected it

The difference is it was never the same twice

I am convinced this is an in house problem
 
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