Question Corner Weld Glue

blueeyes

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
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I've always used Maxim. Are the set-up/bond/cure times the same? My bottle doesn't say and can't find any info online. Thanks.
 
I used Corner Weld for years and was always completely satisfied with it. In warmer weather it bites within a few minutes and I have, on occasion, held a stubbornly gappy joint closed with my hands for the few minutes necessary to "tame" it. Like most glues the maximum bond takes around a day but corners are usually strong enough to handle within an hour or so.

One advantage I found over the traditional P.V.A. adhesives was that it bonded much better to pine and other resinous timbers.
 
I've been really happy with CornerWeld. It's given me no reason to try another glue.

Glue time varies a lot by type of wood. Since I haven't bothered to test it lately so I can't say 100%, but I'm fairly certain that denser woods dry noticeably faster than more porous woods. We typically leave them in the clamps longer than necessary regardless, so that's why I can't say for sure! I have had certain frames fall apart on the way to the V-nailer if I really rushed it—under 10 minutes in the clamps. (We glue our frames in four clamps on a table to get the best possible corner, then nail it after the glue has dried enough to hold the frame solidly together. We're seeking perfection.)

Andrew
 
I prefer the Corner Weld glue for a couple of reasons. Not as brittle so the corners never crack once glued. I apply glue, v-nail wet and immediately fit the artwork into the frame. Most times I am fitting withing 5-10 minutes of joining and never have to worry about a failed corner. I am careful to apply just enough glue that it does not ooze out of the corner when joining but if a little bit does squeeze out I just use a toothbrush to pick it up with no mess.

When fully stocked I keep 1,000 ready made frames out on the sales floor and never have to worry about a corner getting cracked open by artist who don't handle the frames as carefully as I would like. You need to thump it on the floor right on the corner to crack one open.
 
I've been really happy with CornerWeld. It's given me no reason to try another glue.

Glue time varies a lot by type of wood. Since I haven't bothered to test it lately so I can't say 100%, but I'm fairly certain that denser woods dry noticeably faster than more porous woods. We typically leave them in the clamps longer than necessary regardless, so that's why I can't say for sure! I have had certain frames fall apart on the way to the V-nailer if I really rushed it—under 10 minutes in the clamps. (We glue our frames in four clamps on a table to get the best possible corner, then nail it after the glue has dried enough to hold the frame solidly together. We're seeking perfection.)

Andrew

Andrew,

What clamps do you use? I've got a lot of clamps but don't use them much except in particularly troublesome cases.

Bob
 
Between Maxim & Corner Weld it is Corner Weld all the way. I started out using Maxim 15 or so years ago but when I was given a sample of Corner Weld I tried it out and have been using it since. I found that Corner Weld spread easier, dried quicker, & seemed stronger than Maxim. I've had zero problems with Corner Weld so have no reason to switch to another. Joe B
 
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Another big CornerWeld fan here. I also like the fact that it is not brittle, even when dried. As Jeff in effect pointed out, if you DO need to take a frame apart, you can do it by stressing at the corners to break the bond, and then manipulating the frame rails to loosen the vnails.
:cool: Rick
 
Another loyal CornerWeld follower here. I did try the Maxim, one of those test bottles, but CW has never failed me (or my corners) so I have no reason to switch. It seemed the Maxim needed a bit longer time to dry. I use same method as Jeff. Glue, v-nail, fit within 15 minutes.
 
What clamps do you use? I've got a lot of clamps but don't use them much except in particularly troublesome cases.

We use a 40-year old rotating table vice system. I pretty sure the label says "Kwik Klamps"—it's hard to read these days. (See photos.) There are four wheels underneath that have worn grooves into the wood it's been used so much. The four clamps are Stanley "No. 400" clamps. With it we can completely dry test the frame for problems before gluing/nailing.

It's like the Millennium Falcon: "She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid."

Andrew

p.s. You might notice we have the Corner Weld cap on a leash. They get lost fairly easily otherwise.
 

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I've been really happy with CornerWeld. It's given me no reason to try another glue.

Glue time varies a lot by type of wood. Since I haven't bothered to test it lately so I can't say 100%, but I'm fairly certain that denser woods dry noticeably faster than more porous woods.
(We glue our frames in four clamps on a table to get the best possible corner, then nail it after the glue has dried enough to hold the frame solidly together. We're seeking perfection.)
Andrew

I agree and I seek perfection as well.
I use Corner Weld.
We've got the Stanleys also and I noticed that yours have the original handles.
I like to use wooden popsicle sticks between the vise jaws and the moulding to prevent any marks from the vise jaws.

For decades I glued every frame in a vise before joining.
I still do this with the high end, very wide, intricate pattern, and water gilded mouldings before v-nailing.

You can maneuver the corners a lot more in a vise than you can in the v-nailer to get a perfect corner.
About 70% of the frames that we make are joined in the v-nailer.
We have 10 miter vises and it really doesn't take any more time to join in a vise.
You don't stand over the vises and watch the glue dry.
You just put the frame in the vises and then go off and cut mats, fit, wait on customers, whatever.
When the frame is set up, it takes about a minute to join in the v-nailer and the excellent results are worth it in my opinion.
 
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Each brand has unique set-up characteristics, but there are similarities among them:

1. All of the reputable brands of PVA-based frame glue are stronger than the wood, so if bonding strength is an issue, the problem probably is something other than the glue. If you're sure the miters are perfectly cut, check for contamination on the surfaces, such as sawdust, cutting oil from the saw blades, skin oil, hand lotion, oil-based stain marker, etc.

2. The water-borne glues typically used for framing are affected by variations of temperature. That is, warmer temperatures make them set-up and dry faster. Cooler temperatures make them set-up and dry slower. Freezing ruins the chemistry of the glue, and is often indicated by separation of the liquid and solid components.

3. You can extend the set-up and drying times by refrigerating the glue (being careful not to freeze it). Also, adding very small amount of water may help, but caution is suggested, since thinning too much would weaken the bond.

4. Once the glued miter surfaces are clamped together, avoid all movement for at least a few minutes. Set-up begins immediately, and movement just a few seconds after clamping might weaken the bond.

5. "Pre-gluing" doesn't help. That is the practice of wiping a thin layer of glue onto each miter surface and letting it set up, and then fully gluing and clamping. It is usually a wasted effort and could weaken the joint with a too-thick layer of glue. If the wood is dry and has an open grain, you can avoid "starving the joint" by applying plenty of glue and wiping away the excess after clamping.

Miter Tighter
 
About pre-glueing: years ago I called one of the glue manufacturers as a result of a discussion on HitchHikers about glueing hardwoods. I was told by a tech rep that the best way was to dilute some to 50/50, apply it to both surfaces, let it dry, then do a normal glue-up.
 
I did some testing with pre gluing ( I do a lot of tests ) I found with cheaper thinner glues pre gluing was helpful and did strengthen the joint, with other glues like tite bond it actually was detrimental.
 
The need for pre-gluing is because of the wood itself. When you are gluing a miter you are gluing end grain to end grain. As http://www.woodcentral.com/woodwork...d/447141/sbj/why-are-end-grain-joints-weaker/ says:

"... the geometry of wood is similar to a bundle of straws. Those straws or tubes are designed to take up the sap and the nutrients that are needed for growth and transport them out to every part of the tree. While the edges and faces of a plain sawn piece of wood are comprised of the sides of those tubes and form a nearly solid layer, the ends of the same piece are comprised of only the open ends of those "straws" or tubes. That results in two different facts that create problems in achieving successful end joints. First of all, the fact that the end grain is so open means that there is comparatively little actual wood surface available for bonding. Perhaps even more significant, however, is the fact that the open tubes that form the end of the piece are highly absorbent. That means that when what would normally be an appropriate layer of any water based glue is applied and the joint closed, the porous end grain literally steals all the glue from the joint. Taken together, those factors drastically reduce the chances for forming a meaningful bond."

Proper per-gluing seals the tubes in the end grain and allows the final gluing to achieve a better bond. If you Google "gluing end grain", you will find many discussions on this topic.
 
Andrew, do you know if that clamp system is still available? that looks like a great set-up

It was bought by the Lenz Family generation before me, when I was a kid. I haven't seen anything like it for sale recently, but I haven't looked other than an unsuccefully Google search just now. It wouldn't be too hard to make, the yellow round blocks under the clamps are wood, the rest is mostly standard hardware store parts. It's a dense hard laminated plywood top maybe an inch thick and casters underneath for rotation.

When we got our V-nailer in the mid-'80s, at the recommendation of the Juhl-Pacific rep, we went to "glue and shoot" on the nailer (versus "glue, vice, then shoot") but while most of the frames were fine, others were off a bit. It drove a perfectionist like me crazy. After a few months, I dug the vices back out and we've been doing it that way for the last 30 years. More recently, one of my framers "knew better" and would glue and shoot while I wasn't around and sometimes I'd have to break the frames apart and we redo them. Super annoying. We works somewhere else now.

Not to highjack the thread, but does anyone store their glue bottles upside down to keep the tip from drying out and clogging?

Andrew
 
Not to highjack the thread, but does anyone store their glue bottles upside down to keep the tip from drying out and clogging?
Andrew

Yes, I do.
I drilled a hole in a small wooden stand that we use sometimes in the cutting and joining room and I stuck a piece of a plastic bag in the hole and I put the glue bottle with the cap on in the drilled and plastic wrapped hole upside down.
It also helps keep the glue ready to go when the bottle is starting to get low and I don't have to wait for the glue to flow to the top.
I thought that I was the only crazy one.....:D
 
It was bought by the Lenz Family generation before me, when I was a kid. I haven't seen anything like it for sale recently, but I haven't looked other than an unsuccefully Google search just now. It wouldn't be too hard to make, the yellow round blocks under the clamps are wood, the rest is mostly standard hardware store parts. It's a dense hard laminated plywood top maybe an inch thick and casters underneath for rotation.

Not quite the same, but maybe this could be adapted to be used with clamps. http://www.rockler.com/frame-clamp-kit

17477-03-1000.jpg


17477-02-1000.jpg
 
It was bought by the Lenz Family generation before me, when I was a kid. I haven't seen anything like it for sale recently, but I haven't looked other than an unsuccefully Google search just now. It wouldn't be too hard to make, the yellow round blocks under the clamps are wood, the rest is mostly standard hardware store parts. It's a dense hard laminated plywood top maybe an inch thick and casters underneath for rotation.

When we got our V-nailer in the mid-'80s, at the recommendation of the Juhl-Pacific rep, we went to "glue and shoot" on the nailer (versus "glue, vice, then shoot") but while most of the frames were fine, others were off a bit. It drove a perfectionist like me crazy. After a few months, I dug the vices back out and we've been doing it that way for the last 30 years. More recently, one of my framers "knew better" and would glue and shoot while I wasn't around and sometimes I'd have to break the frames apart and we redo them. Super annoying. We works somewhere else now.

Not to highjack the thread, but does anyone store their glue bottles upside down to keep the tip from drying out and clogging?

Andrew

Can you send a picture of your clamp system?
 
Thanks Andrew & Larry. I too am a perfectionist when it comes to my mitres. I have never seen the system you have Andrew and would purchase one if I could ever find one. Larry, I have had that system and I could never get it to tighten the joints properly. I glue and shoot now unless it is a shadow box moulding which I will put one side at a time in the clamp and glue and pin at the top and when the glue sets up will then underpin it. That 4 clamp system of Andrews looks perfect. Joe B
 
Thanks Andrew & Larry. I too am a perfectionist when it comes to my mitres. I have never seen the system you have Andrew and would purchase one if I could ever find one. Larry, I have had that system and I could never get it to tighten the joints properly. I glue and shoot now unless it is a shadow box moulding which I will put one side at a time in the clamp and glue and pin at the top and when the glue sets up will then underpin it. That 4 clamp system of Andrews looks perfect. Joe B

The one I showed looks like something for a hobbyist, but I thought I would throw it out there to see if anyone had used it.
 
Strap clamps are much easier to use. I still have 3 of my original SER clamps - easiest to use but don't last forever. Merle clamps are good for heavy duty clamping and Wolfcraft will probably replace my SERs when they finally fail.
 
I kept a pair of sash cramps which were useful for repairs and for "taming" gappy corners but all my frames were joined by the "glue and shoot" method. Clamping each one and waiting for a bond would just take too long.

I, too was a perfectionist and, yes, fairly often a corner did not line up properly but if it was a step in the face I could usually realign it by tweaking it manually immediately after firing the V-nails. If I had misaligned it laterally that could sometimes be squeezed out with a clamp, otherwise I would simply rejoin it.
 
If you want perfection it's hard to beat a Hoffmann joint.

Back on topic, we used to use Corner Weld, but have been using Maxim the last several years. It seemed to me to set up faster. Since, at the time, all we used it for was making corner samples (which were joined with glue only and hand "clamped"), set time was key and strength not important.

Now that we are offering joined frames, and use the Hoffmann to put our samples together, maybe it's time to review.
 
I kept a pair of sash cramps . . . Clamping each one and waiting for a bond would just take too long.

That's why we have four clamps. You can do the whole frame at once. 10 minutes per frame (gluing time), 8 hours, that's 48 frames. If shop is doing more than that per day, then you're typically talking production and perfection is not required.

The other problem we had with 'glue and shoot' was if one side was twisted or otherwise warped, you'd get the frame 3/4 nailed together and find out that one leg was bad. This has become more of an issue in recent years with the trend of lower quality from manufacturers.

Andrew
 
10 minutes per frame (gluing time), 8 hours, that's 48 frames.

I'd like to see 48 frames per 8 hour day come out of one set of clamps.

PVA glues recommend a minimum of 30 minutes clamping (admittedly, in Santa Cruz you can probably get away with the minimum). Add in at least 5 minutes for putting in the clamps, and taking out, and you are looking at a theoretical max of about 14 frames a day, and that's assuming that the dry time doesn't conflict with break/lunch times. And I've rarely seen actuality coincide with theory.
 
I have used clamps once in 18 years, for a frame that was too big to be underpinned, the key for a perfect join is simply a perfect cut, I said this in another thread, the whole reason underpinners were invented, their complete and entire purpose was to hold the moulding together whilst the glue drys and remove the need of other clamps, thus speeding up the process, nothing wrong with clamping if you have the time, we would need at least 50 of the buggers.
 
That's why we have four clamps. You can do the whole frame at once. 10 minutes per frame (gluing time), 8 hours, that's 48 frames. If shop is doing more than that per day, then you're typically talking production and perfection is not required.

We did more than that Wednesday and Thursday an every one was perfect including the ready made frames that were built. Joined in the v-nailer with wet glue and if a frame is ever less than perfect it gets broken apart and rebuilt. I see very little warped moulding and 99% of it can be cut in a manner that there is no problem joining by sometimes cutting a long then a short or cutting a couple of extra inches as waste to get beyond a bow in the moulding. A huge advantage of buying mouding in full boxes in there is very small amounts of warped moulding since it is not set out loose where it has the chance to bow or warp. I store all mouding horizontal which prevents warpage from occurring. The majority of warped moulding I find is the basic black garbage which I almost never sell.
 
We work very similar Jeff, anything that is not perfect is rejected and broken down, most of what we buy is full boxes, and often will make well over 50 frames in a day, if anything less than perfect makes it out of the workshop and gets to the finishing bench, where it is inspected again thoroughly by different staff, it gets sent back with a note or Gemma will ring the workshop and shout at whoever is unfortunate enough to answer.
 
Twisted sticks are a P.I.T.A. and I had to deal with one particular, regular job which involved making batches of 30 - 40 certificate frames (with matts) using Larson's XE85 profile when they were running it on recycled railway sleepers or some other ridiculously hard wood. I would often get to the last corner and find one end sitting a couple of inches in the air because of a twist in one rail. Force it and, of course, another corner will open up.

I had two solutions:

For a minor variation I would set it aside for an hour or so to let the three corners get a good bond then "bully" the last one into alignment.

In every batch I would make a half-dozen or so extra frames to allow for "quality control' rejections at the assembly stage. The jobs were frequent enough that having a few frames ready to go was useful anyway.
 
PVA glues recommend a minimum of 30 minutes clamping... And I've rarely seen actuality coincide with theory.

30 minutes? Hmmm. That's the glue manufacturer covering their rear ends, sounds like. Maybe 30 minutes if you are planning to roughly handle it, but walking it to the V-nailer for nailing it's fine with far less. I can guarantee that if you handed me a stack of 36 varying unwarped hardwood frames, they could be assembled in one day open to closing on vices. More if they were uniform and a forgiving profile. (Too forgiving, they'd go right to the V-nailer!) Soft woods do take longer to dry, but still not more than 15 minutes typically. But, yes, a 1-person shop no way for dozens of frames.

BTW, the word "perfect" means different things to different shops. About 25 years ago, I had a newly-hired experienced framer handcut a mat, and pronounce it "perfect"—massive overcuts and all. He didn't last even a week in our shop—just long enough to determine we couldn't retrain him.

Buying moulding by the box doesn't guarantee no warpage. I have probably 30-40 boxes over in our warehouse from different manufacturers that say otherwise.

Andrew
 
Regardless of what glue I use, I'm astounded by the strength of the corners when I go to break them. Most require considerable effort.
 
My standard for perfect frames is not a single spec in the finish and seamless corners. I rarely sell basic black frames since I cut around every spec no matter how small. If a joint shows a seam then a tad of filler is used to make appear as a single piece like a closed corner frame. The majority of filler wax used is custom mixed using multiple colors so I have dozens of mat board scraps with mixed wax on them in nearly every shade imaginable.

Ready made frames are built to the exact same standard as custom. I am very selective about moulding manufacturers as well as profile/design I purchase because time is money. In building two 12x14 frames Wednesday nearly 40' of moulding went into the trash. The only reason I bought that moulding in the first place was for a commercial job several years ago and it more than paid for itself since they didn't care about specs in the finish. I have been wanting to throw the rest of it out for a couple of years but have one customer that used it a couple of times per year.
 
Does anyone use this system and can send feedback?

That 4-way clamp was one of the first pieces of kit I bought. About 1983 I think. It worked OK, but the fact that I have maybe only used it 2-3 times since I got an underpinner speaks volumes. o_O

The thing covers the same bench area no matter what size frame and if you use it to it's limits the frame can pop out if you overtighten it.

A strap clamp works better.
 
Bit more nostalgia......

I bought this in a sale. It dates back to pre-underpinner days, but it's a substantial piece of kit and useful on occasion.

vice001.jpg


It's more or less like an underpinner in that it has a lateral clamp. You depress the pedal and move the alligator clamp tight to the inside of the joint
and lock with the handle.
Release the pedal and it grips. Then if you pull the side lever it gives it a bit extra squeeeeeze.

vice002smaller.jpg



Then you get your hammer and nails. :D

In the same sale I got a Morso slide hammer. I use that almost daily, but for stacked frames rather than corner joints.
 
...Maybe 30 minutes if you are planning to roughly handle it, but walking it to the V-nailer for nailing it's fine with far less.
In my experience, 15 minutes usually is long enough set-up time for gentle handling, such as removing from the clamps, removing glue residue, wiping a schmear of putty, and laying materials into the frame on a flat table.

But impact could break loose a fresh glue bond, so framers who pre-glue and clamp prior to underpinning probably should wait at least 30 minutes before inflicting the stress of driving the v-nails. It might be OK if the machine's hold-down clamps are perfectly adjusted, but that is probably not the case, or else there would be no reason to take the extra time to pre-glue & clamp before underpinning. Any movement of the wood parts during the fastener's insertion could break the still-weak glue bond. It happens all the time.

Soft woods do take longer to dry, but still not more than 15 minutes typically.
I believe you're referring to set-up time, which is different than drying time. The glue bond in a typical miter joint should withstand low-stress handling after about 15 minutes of set-up, but that is still about three hours short of being dry and having full bond strength.
 
What is a slide hammer?
:cool: Rick

Probably not the strictly correct name for it, but I rarely call anything by the right name. It's better described as a Nail Driver.

Basically, a metal tube with the inside a bit bigger than a nail. This tube fits inside another tube that has a hefty weight on the end,
There is a spring inside. You put your nail in the end, position it and then bang away holding the weight. It's very handy for getting in tight spaces
as you don't have to hold the nail while you hit it. The tube guides it in straight.

A proper slide hammer is used differently. Quite often car body shops use them for pulling out dents.
 
Over the years I have used them most of them .
Elmers, Corner Weld, Maxim, United's brand.
Corner Weld And Maxim I liked best. I think strength between the two is very small.
I have settled on the blue label Maxim 1 minute set up 15 min bond cure 3 hours.

The Red label maxim is good also but why wait 5min. set up when you can cut it to 1 min. Unless you have a extra large frame that would take longer to join each corner and time to kill.
 
Jim, yes, all correct. I should have been more specific.

Andrew
 
Can anyone tell
Me if the flexibility of Corner Weld after drying creates cracked corners on gessoed and water gilded frames…
 
Hi Shawn, and welcome to the G.
There are others here that may be able to answer more specifically, but my experience with the problem you have described is more from the reaction of the frame to environmental dynamics, not the kind of glue used.
Other than glue, how are you securing your miter joints?
 
Shawn, not that I've ever seen. We've been using it on a wide variety of frames for at least 10-15 years in a busy frame shop with 6 framers on a typical day. Cornerweld is the best glue that I've found so far. Nice tight corners.

Behavior may be be different in the climate of Nevada, so testing is always wise, but I wouldn't expect any difference, honestly.

Andrew
 
We like Corner Weld for prefinished mouldings where the flexibility is a beneft. We use Titebond 2 for raw hardwood frames that will get sprayed opaque finishes or water gilding gesso. We have found the more rigid bond we get from Titebond provides a more stable platform for custom finishes. Either way, we aim for 30 minutes in the vise. We have a lot of vises and the work flows pretty well. We have found that giving the miter a minute to soak up some glue (applying a little more if a lot gets soaked up), before getting clamped makes for very strong joints.
 
makes for very strong joints.
We used to do occasional business with a small local company called "Strong Joint". They made "curved corner" and round frames, plus household ventilation registers and switch/outlet covers.
 
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