Corner Sample vs. Chop Received

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FraminGal

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
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Apr 24, 2002
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Pittsfield, MA - The Berkshires
In the past month I have experienced two cases of receiving chop which is which is very different from my corner sample. I would expect some or very slight variations but these recent cases have been drastic. I was wondering if I just had an old corner sample but I just received a new one and it is the same. I'm at home right now so I don't have the moulding 'make and model number' here with me. Has anyone else been experiencing this lately? In one case the customer reluctantly chose another moulding. When she picked up her finished pieces she said they were nice. I could tell she was disappointed. Then just this evening I opened up another moulding package and again it is different from my moulding sample.
In both cases it is not the physical structure that is different but the finish or rub. I think in both cases quality control was slacking.
 
The problem is rare for me, and I only use chop, but it does happen. Whenever this has happened, I have first called the distributor and ask them to check their stock on hand for a better match. Sometimes I get lucky, and we find some, sometimes we don't. Don't forget, some distributors have more than one location, so the stock I need has sometimes been found at a location different from the one my order is usually shipped from.
Also, moulding such as maple, cherry, and walnut does change color with age. So, it is important to update samples of natural woods from time-to-time.
 
Some companies are worse about that than others. If they have the moldings made in Asia, suppliers have very little quality control, and pretty much have to take what they get.
The makers have a sample stick and a recipie. If something happens to the sample, or the recipie isn't clear...

Molding made under the company's eye is more consistent, but also more expensive.

In my experience, Roma is the most consistent, and Orr is the least. Orr will usually tell me when I order something, if it has recently changed.
 
It depends on the manufacturer/distributor:

As much as I like to badmouth Larson-Juhl, they have excellant quality control. Their stuff is very consistant.

Decor Moulding is pretty good - not perfect, but good.

Admiral Moulding is so bad that I dropped their whole line.
 
I concur with the statements about Larson-Juhl. My rep even brought, unsolicited, new samples for the Abusson line when they experienced a shift in color.

Several other suppliers that I use, Munn and LaMarche have hand finished or acid washed lines that require that finish variations must be discussed with and understood by the customer. The quality and beauty of these lines justify the extra effort.

Pat :D
 
I use Orr very little but they have been extremely easy to work with if I have a problem. I find Bendix does this often. I have pretty much quit using them as the freight from NY kills me out here in SD and their moulding finishes are inconsistant.
 
i can shed a bit of light on this. i worked for a wholesale company that was bad with quality control.
we would get in moulding use it and have excess. we would then put together 20 samples or so...then six months down the road or so we hand out the sample. the moulding has changed three times since we made the sample. the sample was incorrect before the customer even got it. this was a bad company. the problem is quality control!

if you have garbage in the beginning it won't get better over time.
dennniiiiiiiiiiiis
 
One point I would like to add is that the manufacturer usually says there may be variations, however in some instances when the company changes from a solvent based coating to a water based coating, there is usually a BIG difference. So if you have old samples as I do in some instances (Furniture Finishes come to mind) and you get the moulding now it may look almost waxy.

I have had this happen a few times.
 
Wanna hear a funny story about this?

Several years ago, a company I like very much sent me a chop that looked nothing like the sample. When I called, they explained that they were getting the moulding from a new manufacturer and there had, indeed, been a substantial change in the look. To avoid future confusion, I asked them to send me a new corner sample.

When the new sample arrived, it looked exactly like the old sample and nothing like the chop I received. So I called again and was told . . .

they were using up the small remaining footage from the OLD manufacturer by cutting it into corner samples.

I'm not going to tell you the name of the distributor because, in over twenty years of buying from them, this is the only supremely stupid thing they've done.

(So I guess you can tell I'm NOT talking about L-J.)
 
Interesting note to all this... today I was talking with a rep about some of his frames I refused to display because the finish was printed(the idea being that it mimicked a hand finished appearance) I explained to him that I don't want anything that looks fake even if it is only to my trained eye -- he said that some of these lines used to be hand finished and they had too many complaints about variation so they created a printable mimic.

All I have to say about this is thank God that this is not every company's reaction to compaints about variation -- I'd hate to live in a faux-hand-finished world.

Long live hand finishes!

A hand finish is like a work of art, no two are exactly alike nor should they be -- it destroys the uniqueness and beauty.


Jason.
 
We had a knotty molding come in MUCH knottier than the sample. The sample has one small knot in it, the molding had a hole in it, and a couple more large knots. I asked the customer if she would like to take a look at it, because I liked how it looked, even if it wasn't what she was expecting. She loved it. She thought the hole was wonderfully rustic.

Sometimes when it doesn't match, it's better!
 
And if you have samples in one profile and six different finishes, and you can't tell WHICH finish the chop is supposed to be - that's bad.
 
I have one company who has made the brilliant decision to have one company produce the large version of a style and another company produce the smaller version. Of course, the colors don't match from large to small. And now, I just got in a large version that is different from their sample. The sample is bright red and the chop is a dull red. When I call to complain about their samples being so different, they send me new ones but I never know if they will match what they chop. I need to rethink whether to remove them from my wall or not. :rolleyes:
 
There are some Orr moldings that have a lovely patinaed, crackly coloring. This texture in the color really sets off the Southwest style art many of our customers bring in. So, to chuck them because they aren't always the same color as the sample would not be good business. I remind the customer that this kind of finish varies, and find out what variations would be okay with them. (lighter, but not darker, redder but not browner, for example) This usually works fine.

If something is too much hassle, I will sometimes add a 20 percent "extra work" charge to the foot price. If customers still want it at the higher price, I don't mind having to do the extra work. (such as refinishing once in a while, so it's the right color.)

I did this with the Le Cirque moldings, and it has worked out fine. The extra 20 percent covers the extra time it takes to sand the bottoms of the sticks to get good cuts, and the waste for sticks that are too twisted to use. If I didn't add this charge, I could not afford to sell this line.
 
I called Decor regarding one of the mouldings I have been having a problem with. I told her, the customer service person, that the chop I am receiving does not look like the picture in the catalog or like my corner sample. She just said they must have changed manufacturers. Frustrating!
 
I had a situation with Larson Juhl's Cortona line of moulding some time back. Their samples had a beeswax finish with a fairly matte patina, rich looking and classy. I hadn't shown it for a couple of months and I sold one of the profiles to a customer. When the length came in, it had a shiny lighter finish, nothing like the sample. This is not a cheap line of moulding.

I called the rep and he stopped by to see the difference about 3 weeks later. In the meantime, I had the St. Louis warehouse scour the other warehouses for enough of the "old" style moulding to finish the job.

The rep told me that LJ decided to change the finish and he forgot to tell me about the change. I immediately pulled the samples off the wall in front of him and threw them in the "outbox".

There is no excuse for anyone to have to guess what the finish on a moulding will actually look like when it arrives for a job. Those people won't be there when the customer comes in and complains about the difference in finish. They won't have to put up with the bad PR that these types of inconsistencies create with that customer. And, with the pressure that some of these reps put on the framer to carry the "exclusive" line, the responsibility is on their shoulders to produce what they say they offer and not something "close". There are too many good moulding manufacturers out there for a framer to carry to have to put up with sloppy workmanship and arbitrary changes in a style or finish.

I would give any supplier the axe if their products were consistently out of stock, backordered, or of bad quality or mismatched finish. It is your business on the line when the customer walks out dis-satisfied. If the supplier is one that you don't want to lose, at least I would voice my concerns about the lines that are inconsistent and pull those profiles off the wall that don't match the samples. If you give them the message that you will not stand for that type of inconsistent workmanship, they may start making a concerted effort to improve their quality control and supply the product as shown.

I found that a satisfied customer will maybe talk about how good you are or maybe they won't. But a dis-satisfied customer will go out of their way to tell people how bad that framer down the street is or how poor the quality of his mouldings is. A dis-satisfied customer will do much more harm to your business than a satisfied customer will do good.

Framerguy

[ 07-22-2003, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Framerguy ]
 
Originally posted by Pamela DeSimone, CPF:
Also, moulding such as maple, cherry, and walnut does change color with age. So, it is important to update samples of natural woods from time-to-time.
Click to expand...
As manufacturer/supplier of natural woods, I'm interested to hear other peoples thought on this.

We suggest to our customers that they take one of two approaches. One being what Pam suggested, and the other being that they keep their old samples and educate the customer about the aging.

I personally prefer the second option because most of the framing that gets done is hopefully going to last a lot more than the 1-2 years that it will take for the majority of aging to take place. As I understand, one critical aspect of selecting any particular moulding is the color (please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm an ignorant supplier, not an artiste). I think that the customer, if they can really comprehend it, would rather have their framing look the way they want it (the way they/you designed it with the corner sample) for a long time, not a short time.
 
David, I guess I'm the ignorant artist. I never thought about hardwood frames aging once they're finished - except for a few exotic woods. I always figured "every tree is different" so I shouldn't expect the moulding to be the same from one run to the next.

At your convenience, could you elaborate on the aging phenomenon (with respect to wood, not yourself. ;) )
 
First of all, what makes you think I'm aging? :D

To clarify, I'm referring to woods with a natural finish - that is, no color added. Woods that have been stained will have similar effects, but to a degree which is reversely proportionate to the hiding properties of the stain.

Somewhat like artwork, wood changes color primarily based upon the presence of UV light and oxygen. The more inpenetrable the finish the longer the process will take, due to the blocking of oxygen. Obviously, keeping the wood away from light, or using a finish which contains UV inhibitors will slow that part of the process.

All the woods I'm familiar with tend to darken with age, except for walnut. Strangely, however, if exposed to extreme UV light, wood will lighten - just like your artwork. I'm not familiar with the underlying chemistry for these properties, you'll just have to trust me that that's the way it is


An interesting note: some woods, such as Cherry, age so quickly that if an unfinished piece is left in direct sunlight for a few hours (literally just 2 or 3 hours) it will darken noticably. You can prove this dramatically by covering part of the wood with a piece of paper or another chunk of wood - there will be a very distinct line where the color changes.
 
Thank you, David.

I am constantly astounded at how much I don't know.

Ten years ago, I knew everything worth knowing.
 
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