Opinions Wanted Corner Pattern Matchup

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Framing Queen

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
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Mar 3, 2010
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St. Petersburg, FL
So, is anyone as anile retentive as I am concerning pattern matchup on corners. For instance, I just went through 14' of moulding to match the corners - perfectly I might add - on a bamboo moulding.

I always point this out to the customer upon pickup. Of course, I can't match every time, but in about 90% of the time I do.

Anyone else as picky as me?

:kaffeetrinker_2:
 
I'm pretty picky too but tend to appreciate that if I'm going to be too picky then I should only sell closed corner frames. ;)

I do a fair amount of carving and finishing when I can't get a decent match up. It's also the reason I prefer joining in a corner vise with drilling, brads and filling and almost always sand every miter.
 
Most of the time I do a "best effort" match (as in, try not to make the mismatch really glaring), but I've found it to be really difficult to perfectly match a moulding that I didn't carve myself. One of my biggest pet peeves is that the pattern repeats aren't always the same distance apart, so I may calculate a length that gets a perfect pattern match in one part of the stick, then mismatches elsewhere.
 
I try to match corners if possible, makes for less to touch up.
On some patterns like bamboo, I try to hit the dead spots ( smooth areas ) in the pattern and put that in the corners. Makes it a little easier.
 
The question in my mind is "Truly, how often do your customers request this extra service, knowing that you charge extra for it?"
 
For me, if I've got extra footage anyway, I make my best effort to match, whether it's making the corners all match or trying to at least get a continuous pattern on at least 3 corners. I don't even ask the customer, I just consider it a challenge and enjoy the results. I do point it out to the client when they pick up their framed artwork.
 
Baer Charlton said:
The question in my mind is "Truly, how often do your customers request this extra service, knowing that you charge extra for it?"
Click to expand...

Never, of course, but they are quick to point out after the fact that the pattern doesn't match.
Should we not anticipate the reaction on certain patterns?
You do remember that we could once order a bamboo pattern chopped with matching corners...for about a 25% up-charge, don't you?
The seller of the product always falls incumbent to the finished product...I really don't know what "Seller Beware" would be in Latin...
 
I framed something for an actor last year. The frame had a repetitive bead that was less than 1/8" on the lip. He had a conniption because the beads didnt line up in the corners. Looked really good to me, but he didnt see it that way. I had the moulding in stock and agreed to redo it. Happy customer in the end. I just hope he doesnt come back.
 
I must be missing something here. Please tell me what it is.

The way I see it, the only way that you are going to get all four corners to match is if the frame dimensions are exact multiples of the pattern interval. If the pattern interval is, say, 4" then the frame width and height must be some exact multiple of 4"; ie. 8" x 12", 12" x 24", etc. And that is including the allowance.

If the dimensions are not some exact multiple, then the most you can get to match is 3 corners. You cut the first leg, the cut the next leg so that one corner matches, then cut the third leg so that one leg matches the second. When you cut the 4th leg, you can get one end to match but not the other.

What am I missing here? If I have a frame whose dimensions are say, 13 x 19 and a pattern interval of 4", how do I get all 4 corners to match.

To complicate this more, I am cutting on my Pistorious, where I cannot see the exact line of the cut and where trying to trim a small amount never leaves as good a cut as when both sides one the cut can be held doswn.
 
I try to match on the more plain areas between the design, if possible; If it looks like I can't I mention it before the sale.

I just finished a 7" by 9-1/4" frame, ordered extra length, and matched the corners with the more plain areas and it looks fine. They are equally spaced on top and bottom; also on sides. It wasn't bamboo, but was a narrow gold ornate frame.

Of course my price includes the extra material needed.
 
It's easier on the chopper. If I have to use my CTD saw, I cut the legs a little big and then take a little from each end since it's hard to see the cuts. I study the pattern first to see where to make the cuts.

Sometimes I will cheat the size a little to make it work and then cut the mat to fit. I don't do this on every frame, just where a pattern mis-match is really noticeable.

On some Roma frames I carve and blend if necessary. Some patterns are impossible to match.
 
I never try to match the pattern.

I don't necessarily cut all of the legs of a single frame at the same time. I may cut the first 2 at one point, and the other 2 a half hour later with 20 other legs for other frames being cut in between that.

My pricing does NOT take any extra moulding into account. I do not charge extra for some random amount of moulding I need to use up to try to match a pattern in the corners. I'm virtually always the lowest price vendor on here when people are asking for price checks in this forum, sometimes 50% or 75% lower than the average (with Jeff R. being perhaps the lone exception).

As was previously mentioned, the pattern sizing won't have anything at all to do with the current frame size I'm trying to cut. Likewise if I order a chop from a vendor, the pattern is never cut to match; it's just cut.

If they want matching patterns, then they can buy one of my closed-corner ready made frames from my large stock.
 
Larry Peterson said:
I must be missing something here...

The way I see it, the only way that you are going to get all four corners to match is if the frame dimensions are exact multiples of the pattern interval...
Click to expand...

Larry - indeed you are absolutely correct - this is called Matched Mitered Corners"

...If the pattern interval is, say, 4" then the frame width and height must be some exact multiple of 4"; ie. 8" x 12", 12" x 24", etc. And that is including the allowance.

If the dimensions are not some exact multiple, then the most you can get to match is 3 corners...
Click to expand...

Correct!

...What am I missing here? If I have a frame whose dimensions are say, 13 x 19 and a pattern interval of 4", how do I get all 4 corners to match...
Click to expand...

In this scenario, you would increase the matting to accomodate the "new" size of 16 x 20 or decrease the matting for a finished size of 12 x 16.

It involves time and extra materials on certain profiles which should be pointed out to the customer and included in the charges. :thumbsup:

We had some custom dining room chairs made a few years ago and to get the repeat pattern in the fabric to perfectly match in the back, we had to order twice the quantity of fabric if we desired this "premium" finish. The designer pointed out this option and gave us, the customer in this case the option to pay for this benefit. :)

John
 
Larry Peterson said:
I must be missing something here. Please tell me what it is.

The way I see it, the only way that you are going to get all four corners to match is if the frame dimensions are exact multiples of the pattern interval.
Click to expand...

I agree. Pattern matching is only possible if you are either really lucky, or if you are willing to adjust the mat borders to ensure that the OD of the frame is an exact mutliple of the pattern repeat. Since most moulding patterns repeat frequently, it is possible, but the math involved to do this seems outrageously complicated. And, you need to be certain that you start each cut at precisely the right spot. You may even have to take the blade kerf (thickness) into consideration.

Rather than matching patterns, I think the time would be better spent in counseling. :)
 
Paul Cascio said:
Rather than matching patterns, I think the time would be better spent in counseling. :)
Click to expand...

Of course, I said in most cases.

Craftsmanship is why most(emphasis added LOL) people go to a custom shop. Why would you not show the customer a perfectly joined pattern but instead "counsel" them? Makes no sense to me other than being somewhat lazy (no offense inteneded) or wanting to yield as much as possible from the stick.

I've found most customers are impressed. AND, I've had more than a few now look at other work they've had done elsewhere only to see the difference. AH yes, satisfied customers! :)

Of course, I always tell the customer beforehand that I will try to match the pattern - taking into account the other mentioned issues. But, in most cases, I can make the match perfectly.

Anile retentive as it's best. OR, as Mr. Henry once pointed out - a candidate for Ritlin! LOL

:faintthud:
 
Guys; especially John and Paul, thanks for the validation. I guess I don't need to head back up to Paul's for a refresher course.

I had a few requests for matching corners before I moved to web only and I always told them no.

I had seen this subject up here before and I wondered then but didn't ask any questions. I thought that I was just too dumb to understand what yous guys where talking about and making it sound like a simple subject.

The gyrations need to make Matched Mitered Corners don't seem worth the effort unless you are charging at least double what an unmatched frame would cost.

And since it is almost guaranteed that the top and side mat margins won't match, the customer probably won't like that. And of course if you are framing an oil or other unmatted piece, then you certainly can't have matched corners unless you trim the piece.

"Of course, Mrs. PainInThe#$%, I can certainly make all 4 corners match. I just need to trim down your original Renoir a little bit and charge you double plus a PITA fee"

I think that there are some good reasons why I am web only now. Dealing with PITA customers is one.
 
Personally, having three perfectly matched corners and one off would bother me more than not making any effort at all to match them. I'm with others on this one; if you do it adjust the size to match all four corners and adjust the mats. Most of the time you end up with a nice bottom-weighted mat.
 
On some profiles, like bamboo hitting the flat spots is pretty easy and doesn't waste a lot time or material etc. On a highly figured profile that I might think would be a real distraction, I will point it out to the customer before hand. Most of our corner samples are going to reflect this already, don't you think. (that is unless you have carved or otherwise matched your corner samples)

My personal opinion on trying to match corners on most profiles is that it really doesn't help anything. Matching 3 of 4 corners to my eye make it look worse, not better. Now your eye goes to that one mismatched corner and like Ricky Ricardo said, "you got som splainin to do". If you can match 3 why can't you match 4, asks the uninformed. Or the casual observer just thinks what a botched up job that framer did, look at the corner it doesn't match.

But to each his own.
 
When Munn Frameworks chops mouldings like this for me, they will make the legs symmetrical rather than match corners. It makes for a satisfactory appearance, without having to adjust the size.


IT212M-flg.gif
 
Or a side-weighted mat, Dave?

"Picture frame moulding is not wallpaper," where the strips start in a single plane and end in a straight line. We're working with two dimensions. If you pattern match with the frame, often times you must sacrifice somewhere else; usually the mats. And suppose there's no mats?

The only time I pattern match is with a large ornate moulding where there's a significant difference in heights along its edge. I really think we are, as an industry, too anal; we're our own worst critics. Also, too obsessed with the "craft" and not enough focus on our profit picture.
 
Framing Queen said:
Of course, I said in most cases.

Craftsmanship is why most(emphasis added LOL) people go to a custom shop. Why would you not show the customer a perfectly joined pattern but instead "counsel" them? Makes no sense to me other than being somewhat lazy (no offense inteneded) or wanting to yield as much as possible from the stick.


:faintthud:
Click to expand...

I wasn't knocking you, I meant we (as an industry) should be IN counseling. I should have used a :) to indicate that I was joking.
 
Paul, it's possible to play around with the proportions to make the mat look good even if the sides are a little wider.

But being realistic, it's not something I lose sleep over, agonize over or am willing to lose money over. It's possible to make a profit and do this type of work at the same time. It's called charging the customer.
 
MOST of the time we can get it done by fiddling with size and adjusting the mat slightly...so we try to do that....please note that I said MOST of the time....

No extra charges involved...of course a picky customer is always led to the possibility of a closed corner frame.
 
Paul Cascio said:
I wasn't knocking you, I meant we (as an industry) should be IN counseling. I should have used a :) to indicate that I was joking.
Click to expand...

No offense taken ... this is, after all The Grumble! LOL

So, when I look at why I've lasted for 8 years, just maybe this type of attention to detail helps set me apart from my competitors .... I think this might be especially true considering some the comments.

ALSO, I try to make EVERY frame look like a closed corner. No matter how close my cut is, I still use some filler to make the frame appear as close to a closed corner as possible. EVERY FRAME - except for the commercial applications.

Too picky? LOL Maybe not in this economy! :)

:thumbsup:
 
Usually what I'll do is cut the frame and lay it out on the workbench and then just switch legs around to the least mismatched state. Often that is good enough. If not, then some carving, filling and coloring has to take place.
 
I'm with Dave; that's how I do it too. If I expect a problem with matching corners, I discuss with the customer to start with. I have only have that happen once, where it was a problem. We changed the moulding to a different one as it was a frame for an oil on canvas, so no room to play with mats.

Also; I find that most customers have never even thought about it, they are just happy to have their thingy framed.... I sometimes feel that we are too picky!

I had a problem pastel not too long ago (and told the customer I couldn't give her any guarantees but would do the best I could).
Before she picked it up, I told her there were some problems, and to come in to see if she could live with it.
She didn't even see the problem.... (little specks of pastel, kept flaking and no matter how what I tried, some of it did show up on the mat...yes, reverse bevel....color mat matched the overall pastel as much as possible) and was more than happy with the result.

Maybe sometimes we just need to let it go... try to be an ordinary customer and look at it with their eyes.
I am not saying you shouldn't work on quality, but I think we all should know and admit that enough is enough.
 
I always match the corners if the moulding design allows it. In most cases it is not a real problem reguardless of the scale of repetition. In fact I have always wondered why this topic even comes up. But this thread has opened my eyes as to possible reason. I use a table saw with a sliding jig to cut my miters and I can easily see exactly where the cut is being made. After reading some earlier posts I now realize that some cutting equipment may not be as accommodating.

I'll just consider myself lucky and shut up now.
 
Baer Charlton said:
Wow.... 33 posts into this and nobody has mentioned Attach EZ Fix & Fill.
Click to expand...

That's a given...doesn't everybody use it as final corner finish?

If you don't you really should giove Pat a call and get with the program.
 
Baer Charlton said:
Wow.... 33 posts into this and nobody has mentioned Attach EZ Fix & Fill.
Click to expand...
Nice..But I just sculpt me somethin totally Gnarly on them there corners.....L.(Aka..."Captain Anal".sigh:nuts:..)
 
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