Copyrighted View ?

echavez123

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Posts
838
Loc
Las Vegas, NV
I had an opportunity to go up to th 54th floor of the Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas, to a place called the "Foundation Room", which is open exclusively for members and their guests. I took my 4x5 camera and took a killer night shot of the strip from this unusual viewpoint. While taking the second picture, I was confronted by one of the employees who said, the view was copyrighted by Mandalay Bay and insisted that I would have to sign a waiver which would prevent me from any commercial use of the photos. A couple of other people snapped shots with a point & shoot, and they were not confronted.

I wasnt sure my pics would come out good, especially since I was distracted by this person. I took 3 photos, and one of them is really good. This copyrighted claim sounds a bit like "caca de toro" to me. Anyone else know heard of this?

I would love to make a huge print and frame it for the gallery, but I am concerned about the legal side. Any wisdom out there?

Ernesto
 
As far as I can see the only copyright is your copyright of the photos you took.
Copyright seems to apply only to media ie the written word, pictures, software, music etc. I can find no mention of "views"anywhere.
You might need to prove that you have not used an official picture owned by the hotel if it came to it.

From the US copyright website "Copyright law protects the original photograph, not the subject of the photograph."
 
"caca de toro":) Like it.

You might just as well say to the guy, "If you want to look at me it will cost you $50 a minute or part thereof". I they want to ban photography altogether on the premises that's one thing. Own the veiw? I don't think so.....

I once had a commission to paint a veiw of a big country house nearby. I was snapping a few shots for reference from the side of the road when one of the estate employees pulled up and informed me that photography was not allowed without permission. As it happened I did have permission from the estate manager, so that shut him up.:D But even if I didn't, I was at that point not actually on the estate but the public highway, so I would have been quite within my rights to tell him to [insert suitable expletive] off.
 
I don't see how they can copyright a view of locations that they don't own. If you take a photo of the Chrysler building they have a right to it frome a trademark point, but if you take a photo of the NYC skyline they do not.

I wouldn't worry about it myself. Since they are not requiring it of all they are not defending their rights so it would not hold up in court.

Take this for what it is worth, I am just a framer. If you want a real answer you should talk to a copyright attorney.
 
If this is true, the Google Map just died! Google has a map (photo) of every home in my neighborhood, including mine. You can see the front of my home, my business, and the sides! I think i am going to sue Google map for a few billions.... lol. :smileyshot22:
 
tell you hired a copter and took from the air outside the window...sounds like a bunch of bs to me.
 
I am reminded of the drive we took at Pebble Beach in California. Something about not be able to sell photos I took of the lonesome tree that is so widely known. Any Caleefornians know about this? Sounds similar. And similarly silly.
 
That royalty payment is as likely to be paid as my bet with my son that Smoke will win the 500 in a couple of weeks. Ready to hear the roar? It's been a long winter.
 
I am not so quick to dismiss this as bovine droppings.

A few years ago, the Pebble Beach Country Club in Monterey copyrighted the much photographed, “bent cyprus” tree, and demanded royalties from anyone taking pictures of it.

It was eventually stuck down after years of litigation, but the decision by the court was not cut and dry.

It seems to me that since Mandalay Bay owns the building, it may be able to determine “fair use” of its premises.

I was challenged in a Boston hotel for taking pictures in the lobby even though I was a guest. The security people cited concerns about other hotel guest’s privacy.
 
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It seems to me that since Mandalay Bay owns the building, it may be able to determine “fair use” of its premises.

You could be right about that, Bill. But if Mandalay Bay has such a policy, it probably has to be published somewhere, and perhaps you have to agree to the terms of use going in.

If I had been approached by security personnel in a similar situation, I would have immediately asked to see that rule in writing.

At this point, if I wanted to publish a photo taken there, I probably would consult an attorney.
 
email the hotel management---tell them about this shameful/humiliating abuse of customers and demand a week's comp'd room + goodies for the trepidation/aggravation as just repaiment on a biz trip ruined at the hands of THEIR representative!!!!! ;)

you might actually get something out of it what with the areas biz sliding done the shute---they dont need any adverse publicity--real or fantasy
 
You cannot copyright a view. It's just BS. You can copyright a publication, such as an essay, or a book, or a piece of music, but you cannot copyright a view.
 
I really doubt as well that they have a leg to stand on, unless you signed their form. Did you sign the form they handed you? If so then you may have lost your case. It would be questionable if the paper has any legal bearing, but I would think your signature on it does ;)
 
I own the rights to the space-view of earth... and everything there in. They are infringing on MY copyrights! ;)
 
They certainly do not have copyrights associated with the views from their building, but Bill's mention of rules for use or behavior within the building could be real. They could, for example, legally prohibit all use of cameras within the building if they wanted to.

The security guy probably was just trying to do his job, and got his words mixed up.

Anyway, it would have been fun to see his reaction to a request for the rule in writing...you know, just so we could fully and properly comply.:icon9:
 
You cannot copyright a view. It's just BS. You can copyright a publication, such as an essay, or a book, or a piece of music, but you cannot copyright a view.

Ya but if he signed the papers who knows how he then limited himself.
 
You cannot copyright a view.

Could you take a photo of a framed Rembrandt in the interior of a museum with just a bit of the wall surrounding the frame and publish it? Technically, it's a view.
 
The View

In by personal opinion, with some knowledge (while very limited at that), you can sell a photo of something as long as you are not selling a photo of that particular object (if it's under another's copyright) but rather of the ambience, the scenery, the scape which just happens to include that object. For instance, you can not take a straight on, plain photo of architecture and sell it if that architecture is trademarked. But, you you capture the street and a tree and a bird with that building in the shot, it's ok, because the trademark doesn't include all those other elements, it's impossible to because they are always changing.
 
Gentile vs Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is a good case to look at.(look it up. It is late and I am not doing it tonight) He beat the R&R hall of fame and is allowed to sell his photo poster of the building.

Pebble Beach tried the 'copyright' on the tree. Didn't hold water. They can't really do much other than restrict photography on their property. They cannot copyright the view. They can file a trademark on the tree, jump through all the hoops and hollar trademark infringement and waste tons of money trying to enforce it. Not too likely with most photographers.

You cannot copyright a view. You can copyright an image and prevent others from using it, using derivative images from it(like painting from it or carving a string of puppies like the jerk koons(sp?) did with Art Rodgers photo) and you can control use of your image.(like going after people who put Che Guevara photos on T-shirts or in booze ads)

The idiot guard lied to you. Most likely did not know what he was talking about or was lied to himself. You copyright an image, an original work, not a view.

Check out ASMP(American Society of Media Photographers) website for some information on copyright. APA(Advertising Photographers of America) has some good information.

A few intellectual property attornies have websites that give you some good information on this topic as well. Same with the US Copyright Office.

You copyright TANGIBLE expression of creativity. A view does not qualify though a photograph, painting or sculpture depicting the view can.(still can depend on a few other things, like originality) Niether does an IDEA.(that one gets a lot of folks) Many get 'ideas' but few put them down in tangible, viewable or readable form.
 
Bill, Rembrandt paintings have long since passed into the public domain. The only real reason for restrictions is so the museums, publishers and others can make money selling you the reproductions.

Below are a few source sites to look at that some may find interesting.

http://www.pacaoffice.org/commandments-2.shtml

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090204/ap_en_ot/obama_poster

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

http://www.c-photography.com/copyright/copyguide.pdf


http://www.kevinjungphotography.com/copyrightguide.html

http://www.rcfp.org/handbook/c10p06.html

http://www.vlaa.org/pdfs/RockHall.pdf
 
Copyrighted View - here's what really happened

Interesting opinions on copyright. Here is what transpired the night I took the photo. I was invited by a member, friend. When I arrived, the member introduced me as his "cousin Ernesto". In response, the greeter asked my friend "how many cousins do you have"? So, I suppose the member does a lot of inviting, in fact he host business dinners 3-4 times a week in the Foundation Room, which cost BIG bucks. Going up there is intimidating. There is a special elevator you take, at which the entrance is cordoned off with a red velvet rope. A mafia-looking host with hairs slicked back tightly will check to see if your name is on the list. As you exit the elevator, you walk into a dimly lit area with walls which are covered with locked bins used to store private stashes of fine wine. There is a nametag for each bin. The place is fairly decadent, and dark hallways lead to other chambers.

I went past the bar, out to the balcony and set-up my gear. The person who requested I sign a waiver, was trying to be diplomatic about this issue, and of course I did not want to sign. My member friend explained I was visiting from California for a few days. And, I tried to explain that my camera was not very good cause it did not have the conveniences of newer cameras -- such as no auto focus, no electronics whatsoever, no telephoto lens etc. But, I could tell this was not going to work. Finally, he said, "My boss insists that you sign this document or leave now". And, I did not want to put my member friend or myself in a compromising position, especially due to the fact that I was near a balcony 54 stories high. So, I signed it. I thought about using a fake name, but if they asked me for ID, my friend might get into trouble with management. So, I put my first initial and last name, rather illegibly and made up an address in Calif. I had to go into the bar area to sign it. And this satisfied them.

When we were alone, my friend asked - "I hope you didnt sign your real name"?

Coincidentally, several weeks later, a photographer came into my shop and showed me his portfolio, and guess what picture he had?

I plan to speak with an attorney about this issue. I also am contemplating approaching Mandalay Bay to try negotiating a legal way to market the shot. I would certainly be willing to make them a huge photo print, framed appropriately to the caliber of the casino decor in exchange for an agreement allowing me to market the image. I know it can be done. For example, Peter Lik has a shot from the top of the Bellagio, looking down on the strip. There is an open tower at the very top, but to get there you need to know someone who could "open the door".

Ernesto

And of course you know that "whatever happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas".
 
Bill, Rembrandt paintings have long since passed into the public domain. The only real reason for restrictions is so the museums, publishers and others can make money selling you the reproductions.

I chose Rembrandt for that point, although I didn’t make the point particularly well, obviously.

A Rembrandt, although not covered under a copyright, may still be owned by a museum or someone who has lent it to a museum. The owner of the piece (or a building interior) may, I believe, place restrictions on the use of that piece (or space), including photography.

Cinderella’s Castle at Disney World, I think, is such an example. Thousands of snapshots of it are taken every week, and, in most instances, Disney encourages it. However, if you tried to make and sell a poster of it without their approval, the lawyers would come down on you like a swarm of anvils. So, even at the Magic Kingdom, there are restrictions on “the view”.
 
So, even at the Magic Kingdom, there are restrictions on “the view”.


Well, that is a fine point, unfortunately, I believe it is not the view they are restricting. It is the object and it's likeness. It's like if someone took a picture and you just happened to have your mugshot in it, they would need your permission to print and sell that picture, but if they caught you from an angle where you can't tell who that is, then they can do whatever they want and not have to ask you. Or they can blur you out to a point where you aren't recognizable.

You can feel free to do what you wish with that photo, as long as you don't use the Mandalay Bay or it's likeness. If you name the photo "the Strip as told by the Mandalay" then you may get yourself into some trouble.

Another oint is that Mandalay does not and would be crazy to hire people to travel around the world, or cruize the internet to find pictures taken from their hotel. They probably do, however, have someone searching the internet for hits off the name Mandalay and see if someone is using their name to make money so they can sue them.

All said and done, post the picture somewhere where we can see it, because frankly I'm interested in seeing what the fuss is about and use it without stating where the picture was taken.:thumbsup:
 
i've had to deal with this issue in PA, the laws vary by state. basically its complete bs, but there are grey areas and ultimately it would fall under the interpretation of a court. the copyright lawyers i've spoken to each said that in my situations, its how the court interprets each individual photo. but in the end its very unlikely someone will go to the trouble of sueing you. what would they get out of it?
one thing that isn't good is signing anything they give you to sign, you basically are agreeing that you understand they own the rights to something (even if they don't).
i wouldn't worry about it (easy for me to say) even if their lawyer sends a letter to you, its probably an empty threat.
 
Jim's right...you can't copyright a view....but you can place photographic limitations within an area. These things are normally posted somewhere or given to you as instructions when you enter a building, though.

If its not posted or you have not been informed, its not enforceable.

Doesn't mean they wouldn't try and take your camera if you don't sign the waiver, though.
 
So did they have you sign the waiver before, or after the photo was taken?

Because if you signed after the photo was taken, then chose to be escorted out, you'd still have the picture, and all the implied rights to use a picture in your camera. If they did not warn of no photography before - then anything signed afterwards should be legally allowed to be used... in my opinion. Can you clarify if you signed before the photo was shot, or after?
 
Copyright View

All said and done, post the picture somewhere where we can see it, because frankly I'm interested in seeing what the fuss is about and use it without stating where the picture was taken.:thumbsup:

I would be glad to post a picture, but I am not sure how to do it. Seems like I have to put it on the web somewhere ... suggestion?

Ernesto
 
Copyright View

So did they have you sign the waiver before, or after the photo was taken?

Because if you signed after the photo was taken, then chose to be escorted out, you'd still have the picture, and all the implied rights to use a picture in your camera. If they did not warn of no photography before - then anything signed afterwards should be legally allowed to be used... in my opinion. Can you clarify if you signed before the photo was shot, or after?

I shot 1 photo, then was asked to sign waiver. Then took 3 more and left.

Ernesto

PS - I will try to post a picture.
 
Copyright View

All said and done, post the picture somewhere where we can see it, because frankly I'm interested in seeing what the fuss is about and use it without stating where the picture was taken.:thumbsup:

Here is a rough cut of the orig pic in Vegas, I wont mention where ...

Ernesto
 

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http://www.photopermit.org/?p=65 will get you to a short blurb on the City of Chicago trying to 'copyright' a city view. Just doesn't work.

The Disney example is a nice one but not quite accurate. If you try to use the view for commercial purposes, such as an ad, you will find you have the same limitations as you would if you come photograph my farmhouse and barn and try to use them in an ad. Disney and I can both go after you for using private property for commercial gain without a property release. For private use, giving away prints or editorial(newspaper and magazine) both Disney and I can't do a thing about it.

As for my photographing you and using the photo... as long as my use is ART, Journalism & Editorial and not defamatory there really isn't a #### thing you can do about it. The link below will get you to a very good case that discusses this one nicely.

http://www.jmcolberg.com/weblog/2006/02/philiplorca_dicorcia_lawsuit_d.html

below is a quick bit from the site/article

Reported earlier: "Philip-Lorca diCorcia is being sued by an Orthodox Jewish man that he photographed in 2001, as part of his Heads series." - as reported here, here, and here.

"A judge has dismissed an Orthodox Jew's lawsuit, finding that a photograph taken of him on a street and sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars is art - not commerce - and therefore is protected by the First Amendment, even though his religion forbids such images." (story; also see the ruling)

-------------

On the same case, another from an AP article:
Orthodox Jew's lawsuit over Times Square photo dismissed

By The Associated Press
02.14.06
NEW YORK — A judge has dismissed an Orthodox Jew's lawsuit, finding that a photograph taken of him on a street and sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars is art — not commerce — and therefore is protected by the First Amendment, even though his religion forbids such images.

Manhattan state Supreme Court Justice Judith J. Gische ruled that the photo of Emo Nussenzweig — a head shot showing him sporting a scraggly white beard, a black hat and a black coat — is art even though the photographer took it surreptitiously near Times Square in 2001 and then sold 10 prints of it at $20,000 to $30,000 each.

Philip-Lorca diCorcia's photographic show "Heads" was at the Pace Gallery in Manhattan's Chelsea area in September and October 2001, featuring shots of 17 people photographed without their knowledge in New York, Tokyo, Calcutta and Mexico City. The displayed photo of the 80-year-old Nussenzweig was about 3 feet by 4 feet.

New York's right-to-privacy laws prohibit the use of a person's likeness for commercial purposes without the person's permission. But if the likeness is deemed to be art, the commerce restrictions do not apply.

New York has been fairly liberal in its protection of what constitutes art, the judge wrote. She said New York courts have "recognized that art can be sold, at least in limited editions, and still retain its artistic character."

"First Amendment protection of art is not limited to only starving artists," the judge wrote in a decision made public yesterday. "A profit motive in itself does not necessarily compel a conclusion that art has been used for trade purposes."

Nussenzweig's lawyer, Jay Goldberg, said he was writing his appeal of the judge's decision and expected to win a reversal.

Goldberg said his client's religion forbids, and he has a deep conviction against, reproducing his image by photography or other means because of the belief in the Second Commandment's prohibition against graven images.

"It puts him in a disgraceful light within his community," Goldberg said. "It violates the tenets of the particular religious sect to which he belongs. He shouldn't be put in a position where people might think he sold out for a few bucks."

Goldberg said Nussenzweig's son saw the photograph in a catalog of diCorcia's work in a bookstore in early 2005. Nussenzweig sued in February 2005, alleging his privacy was invaded and his image was used for commerce.

Lawrence Barth, diCorcia's lawyer, said that what was at stake in the case was the right to make art in public places. Without such a right, Barth said, there would be no photo of the sailor kissing the nurse in Times Square at the end of World War II.

Another diCorcia lawyer, Kenneth Schacter, said it did not matter that Nussenzweig objected to the photo on religious grounds. "Our First Amendment rights," he said, "trump his religious beliefs."

-----------------

The case has not been overturned.

A lot of folks will tell you what you can and cannot do. Most are full of BS. Security guards are especially bad in this regard and really have no authority to do anything as long as you are not on private property. On private property they can ask and then escort you off(if it the private property they are 'protecting') but on any other property they are just another citizen hassling you and subject to the same laws for assault and battery and whatnot as any other citizen who may grab or assault you.
 
That case reminds me of something that happened 30 years ago. My parents got a phone call that my grandfather's picture was blown up on a bill board in Los Angeles. The calls didn't stop -- he was on posters all over Los Angeles advertising a newly published book "Fairfax" about the same street in Los Angeles. It seems my grandfather had been photographed while he was in LA visiting us and the photographer used it in his book and for advertising without his permission.

My parents were not looking at the financial aspect of this - they were just mortified and wanted the posters and billboards taken away. They called the publishers and ended up speaking to the photographer who rather quickly agreed to pull the signs and billboard and gifted us a few of the books. I think they were worried about a lawsuit and possibly having to recall all the books. No lawyers were involved (this was 30 years ago - probably before the "sue" mentality hit) and it was resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

My grandfather is no longer alive and he lives on in our memories... and in this book. I personally have a large poster with a wonderful photo of my grandfather on it too. Haven't framed it though. Know a good framer???

While I agree that no one can copyright a "view" I am not sure that I agree with that judge about capturing a private person's photo and using it in a book or for advertisement. At that time it was very distressing to us.
 
Mandalay Bay built the building. They built the building to have value because of the specific view which was not available before they built the building. The specific picture cannot be taken from anywhere else. They may be claiming not the view but the view as taken specifically from their property. As much as I get nasty when told I can't take a picture I have a little sympathy here as this view was created by a large investment. If I owned the building I would want value from any images taken from my building and I would prevent photography completely. I would also have great images made which I would sell. It's just business.
 
"It's just business."

Controlling the use of cameras on private property is understandable. In this case setting up a 4x5 camera is much different than using a 35mm/Digital SLR or a point&shoot camera. The security folk are naturally going to come and ask what you are doing with the tripod, meter, bigger camera, film holders and bag. I would wonder if I were there.(and I shoot 8x10 and larger)

Asking before setting up would be polite and I would have done it.

Getting the line that 'the view is copyrighted' is pure BS. A 'no photos' policy or a questioning staff when a Hasselblad, 4x5 or similar comes out makes sense.

No matter what, they can't copyright a view, only tangible expressions of that view. They can't do anything to stop you from marketing the photos you have. They can stop you from photographing from their property if they want.

Permission to shoot is easily asked for. Or a Mamiya 7 or similar that looks like a point and shoot camera to some is an easy answer. Why not give them a call and ask? They might say you are welcome to photograph as well as inform the security folk what their policy really is.

As for images in newspapers, magazines and books. Editorial and Art are granted a lot of leeway. You may not like being in a publication but absent some specific inaccuracies or malicious publication/description there isn't anything you can do about it.
 
...anyone could take a picture of my children, and use it as they see fit, as long as it is considered 'art'?

So long as your children may be photographed from a public place, I believe the answer is yes, and the photographer would own the copyright.

The image does not have to be considered 'art'. It could be used for educational, editorial, or any other legal purposes deemed appropriate by the copyright owner.

As I recall, permission to use the image must be obtained only if the person's identity could be an issue. That is, if you are planning to take a photo of Jack and Jill having sex in the park and use that image in a news article, you'd better get their permission, or prevent their identity from being discovered.
 
So long as your children may be photographed from a public place, I believe the answer is yes, and the photographer would own the copyright.

The images do not have to be considered 'art'. They could be used for educational, editorial, or any other legal purposes deemed appropriate by the copyright owner.

I think this is very strange though, don't you? Also, why would schools ask for permission first. As a parent, we always have to sign a form to either give permission or refuse pictures taken to be used in newspaper etc. I am sure that is because of legal issues.

Knowing that playgrounds are public places, it makes it scary that anyone can basically take a picture of our children.
 
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