Copying Newspapers

Ron Eggers

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I seem to have opened a can of worms on the PPFA Hitchhiker. Briefly, here's the story.

I mentioned using a scanner a a very good photo printer (pigmented inks) to copy, clean up and reprint newspaper articles for framing.

Very quickly, the question of copyright infringement arose - an issue I hadn't thought of in this case, though I am very aware of it with regard to copying photographs or art.

The consensus seems to be that copying a newspaper article for framing would be a violation of copyright laws.

If this is truly the case, I have several choices:

</font>
  1. Frame the originals and let them yellow in a few months. This is what I used to do.</font>
  2. Deal directly with each publisher to obtain copies suitable for framing. I have framed articles from hundreds of different publications, so this could become a full-time job in itself.</font>
  3. Leave the responsibility to the customer. Since the majority of this work that I do is for commercial customers who barely want to deal with me, much less a publisher or print shop, I think this is impractical.</font>
  4. Refuse to frame newspaper articles. This is profitable, sometimes interesting work that I'd rather not turn down.</font>
  5. Keep making and framing copies and take my chances.</font>
I expect I'll need to get a legal opinion on this, but I am interested in your opinions just the same.

If it matters, I DO charge the customer for the copy work, since I will sometimes spend more time on that process than I do on the framing itself. The copies are drop-dead gorgeous, if I do say so myself.
 

D_Derbonne

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I know that you can get copies of newspaper aricles on better paper if you are willing to pay.
At least that is true for the paper in my city.
They charge for the copy but the price is not exorbitant.
You could tell the customer to have this done or charge a fee...or you can consult a lawyer about copyright infringement...or you could just keep your mouth shut and ...oops too late for that!
faintthud.gif
 

JRB

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Seems to me that the folks on the PPFA Hitchhiker have a little to much time on their hands.

My vote would to be just keep doing what you are doing.

I somehow think that if the newspaper in question did happen across one of your masterpieces, they would more than likely have their legal department send you a cease and desist letter.

For them to actually file a law suit against you without giving you a warning could turn into a public relations nightmare for them. " Huge newspaper chain is out to crush a small picture framing shop".

I think you should stay away from the Hitchhiker, it's making you sweat the small stuff.

John
 

BUDDY

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Ron :You already know what I answered on HH . However I was going to try to ammend my reply but haven't as yet and frankly am a bit turned off by the diregaurd for the friendly advise by some of the OTHER replies.
What I was going to tell the thread is that by asking and obtaining the newspaper's permission you are (as best I understand) allowed to copy what ever they agree to. (This amounts to a liscenening agreement,but is better obtained in writeing,so as to prevent some unknowing third party from saying you aren't telling the truth)
The entire Copyright proceedure as I understand it was originally to protect written works and also inclueded art and other work.
I am not completely sure if all Newspapers and all bylines are indeed copyrighted. However as I stated they do do a very large business relling V-loks and the like of their articles and as such I would strongly suspect they do have some Copyright protection.
The HH post and general attitde that I was illudeing to is the ones that say "you can do what ever as long as you don't get caught" that in my book amounts to NO advise at all. Of course you can violate any law until you get caught .Why do you need advise to know that?
Secondly we constantly argue that we are a country of laws and then we say "but I don't like that one"Or "That law only applies when My rights are infringed upon".
I totally agree that one simple reprint does very little if any harm (but what about if hundreds think the same way)I also agree that If I can frame the actual paper why can't I frame the reprint? I think the answer is all in the Copyright law. I think it has something to do with useing the registered work of another as it where your own . Furthermore as I said in HH, I think if you check the law you will discover that there are even provisions for the loss of revenue from someone giveing away reporduction of a registered work that would have generated income for it's owner,much less made a profit instead of the holder.
But (BOTTOM LINE) this can akl be avoided by calling the paper and why take the risk of being drawn into a litigation? Does your shop's reputation need that type of publicity?
BUDDY
PS As JRB stated the normal course of events is for the holders lawyer to issue a cease and decist order and then if you fail to agree further action is taken.However it is the prelimanary steps in what could be further action if you fail to listen. It is sort of "how close to the line can I get without going over".It works for some.
Also HH has no corner on this discussion I remeber this topic coming up right here and even bringing in a lawyer .It just was about Art not written text,check the SEARCH BUTTON.
 

Ron Eggers

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I'd like to emphasize, again, that I'm not talking about a single newspaper. Perhaps 40% of the articles I've framed have been from the Appleton Post-Crescent, a Gannett newspaper. The other 60% have been from a variety of publications ranging from specialty trade papers to the Wall Street Journal.

If I decided to chase down either permission or good copies from each of them in the future, I would have no time left to actually frame (or Grumble.)

Typically, I am doing this work for various banks and credit unions who present the framed articles to good, usually commercial customers, as a gift.

As I was thinking about this today, it occurred to me that one of the articles I did a few months ago was for an associate editor of the Appleton Post-Crescent.
 

Ron Eggers

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By the way, I wasn't looking for an opinion on HH. I was just responding to a direct question. "Do you still have your Epson printer and how do you use it in your shop?"

Or something to that effect.

On HH, you can comment that water is wet and you'll get a variety of opinions about it.

Merrill told us the other day that opinions are not appropriate on HH.
 

Less

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cool beans, how large of a print can you make?

Maybe HH needs a visit from Less
 

Ron Eggers

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<strike>Less</strike> atelbeforhunred,

I can print up to 13x19. That means I can often take separate items - say, the masthead, the main article and a jump page - and realign them into a reasonable arrangement and print them on one page.

I can remove the inevitable smudges and bloopers and any little ads that happen to encroach. Sometimes, I'll reduce the masthead if it's obscenely large compared to the article, or I can enlarge the article.

Working in layers, I can bump up the contrast on the text and soften the photographs to look better than the original.

I don't want to sound like I'm bragging. This is MUCH easier than restoring and old photo, for example, since we're mostly dealing with black and white, except for any photos.

I also don't want to sound like I'm picking on Hitchhiker. I read about 25% of what's posted there and sometimes I respond. I'm just much more comfortable here.
 

Less

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hey that is pretty cool. I do a bit of that stuff myself, but I'm restricted to my 8-1/2x11 HP.

I often find that my digital camera is a better option than my scanner.

I really like the idea of being able to edit newspaper articles and printing them on one sheet.

So, which printer should Less buy?
shrug.gif
 

Ron Eggers

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atelbeforhunred,

The wide-carriage Epson that replaced my 2000P is the 2200, I believe. That would be the baby brother to those monsters that produce 40x60 prints-on-demand.

Epson is the leader in this area, but HP is nipping at their heels and makes some wide-carriage photo printers. I'm just not sure if any are using pigmented inks.

If we get busted, maybe we can be cell-mates.

Think it over.
 

JRB

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Further consideration of this earth shaking dilemma, I came up with these thoughts.

I don't think a newspaper would care all that much. You are not changing the wording in their articles. You are not plagiarizing any of their articles. You are continuing to give the original writers full credit. The newspaper is continuing to get full credit.

Sounds like the only thing you are doing is cleaning up the newspapers format so that it will be more suitable for framing.

I think under these circumstances, even if you did receive a cease and desist letter from them, you should let them take you to court. I think they would back down before it went that far. ( public relations )

John
 

Jay H

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I think this is a neat topic. I too do a lot of digital graphics and had not even thought about the legality of this before. After I did a little research myself I have learned that what your doing is pretty legal. Kind of gray because you do profit from your work and im sure there are photos included too. However there is “Fair Use” exceptions where you seem to fall comfortably.

http://www.wellesley.edu/Library/copyright.html This is a link to a college that has a nice article about this type of stuff.
 

McPhoto

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What about lamination?

We have been laminating newsprint for years using a UV pouch laminator - then matting & framing. We haven't had any problems w/ yellowing after its been laminated - Have you?
 

BUDDY

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Since I do not have any knowledge of the operation of a Epson printer and there is entirely too much information for my little mind to interpet in the Privacy Act,and I have already been found argumenative instaed of helpful on HH, I thought I'd post a sight that was given here in another discussion concerning copyrights and allow the more astute Grumblers to read and interpet the basics of the law.
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html
However for my certainty I'd call the local newspaper and ask them. I'm sure they'd be more then helpful and in Ron's words "it's always better to stop guessing and get the FACTS".
Also in the words of Ellen "take what you can use and the rest ....."well just forget I said anything.I was only trying to help,both on HH and now ( if you can belive that's possible).
BUDDY
 

JRB

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If you ask the newspaper in question, I think you would get an automatic NO answer. It's kind of like gay people in the military, it's OK as long as nobody knows about it.

Why draw attention to what you are and have been doing? Just do it, keep what you are doing to yourself. Contacting the newspaper will just open a can of worms for both of you.

Most of our laws in our rule governed society are designed to keep people from being ridicules about a given situation, they are not designed to nick pic every little detail of our lives, although it does seem that way.

What Ron is doing could have little consequence to the success or failure of the newspaper. Nobody at that institution is gong to give a darn one way or the other, unless, it is brought to their attention, then a decision HAS to be made.

John
 

BUDDY

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John at the risk of sounding two faced you are probably correct . Except for a few little things that you seemed to have glossed over.First as small and close nit as this group is the topic is already out in the open .And no,I don't mean that someone here or on the HH is a RAT. There are several works floating around and if I remeber correctly Ron did one for a Paper publisher.So the likelyhood that it will get back is pretty good.
But most importantly what I and I think a few others where replying to is wether or not it was a violation of the Privacy Act. And if you are concerned to let the papers see or hear it you must also have some concerns about it being a violation also.
So granted there are a lot of things many of us do that doesn't meet the strictest letter of the law ,so none of us is without sin( least of all ME). However that wasn't the question as I understood it.
However now that Ron has reposted his query it seems he really was wondering how do others utilize their Epson printers to repoduce written articles .And just maybe the question of legalities never entered the picture.
BUDDY
 

ERIC

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IMHO, since they are allowed here, there is 'no case' to be made in a matter such as Ron's activity.

While he may have a prolific amount of orders, his activity is to make one (or a few?) copies of one article for a customer.

If the newspaper saw the offending copy (no reflection on your skills Ron) and determined that Ron is the source of it, what good would a cease and desist letter do? Ron is not continuing to make copies beyond his customers order - he has ceased already.

While it is a violation, there needs to be a case that can be brought against the offender. This type of service, done by a framer, ought not amount to a worthwhile lawsuit.

However, if a printer or copyshop did the work, they have more at risk. If they are a franchise or a chain they can lose contracts or be terminated because thay have exposed others to a possible lawsuit. There is a statement (from the FBI?) right on most color copiers spelling out what can not be copied because of copyright law. I was told by a shop that if he let me make an offending copy on his Xerox unit, he could lose his equipment due to a clause in the lease. They would just take it - no discussion.

Getting official permission from the newspaper to copy the item is not easy if they have a marketing depatment whose job it is to sell you their reprinting service that is done in-house and in large volume.

How about meeting the business editor for your local paper? Tell him how much you love his/her work?
 

billrobertstudios

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Greetings:

Why is the print-out from the Epsom printer deemed so great? I presume it is an ink-jet printer with standard ink. Print out a sheet of this and put it in the window for a couple of months and see how faded it is... Why is this so much better than the news paper.

I have heard of a product you can apply to newspaper and other acid and lignin type papers which severly reduces the acid content and thus the yellowing. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks,

Bill Roberts
Pearl Harbor, HI
 

Ron Eggers

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You presume wrong, Bill.

This printer uses pigments, not dyes, and independent fade-tests have rated the fade-resistance at something on the order of 150-200 years when used with the appropriate paper.

I do advise my customers NOT to hang these, or any other prints, in the window, though - even with UV glass.

I've had mixed results with the de-acidification sprays. To be effective, you really need to saturate the paper. Otherwise you just end up with uneven yellowing.

The primary purpose of making the copies to provide a longer-lasting image. A secondary, but important, purpose is to provide a cleaner image without all the bloopers, ads, creases and smudges.

I forgot to mention that I'll often insert little subliminal text messages, like, "Bring all your framing to The Total Picture."

[ 03-16-2004, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
 

Rozmataz

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Ron... after reading all the responses here, I am wondering if the process that is used by awards and trophy businesses, where they make a "metal" reproduction of an article would fall into the same category.

Somehow, making a copy for personal use (the customer's personal use)would skirt the copyright infringement... you are not making money on the article itself - just cleaning it up and framing it for one person.

You don't even want to know about a huge copyright infringement issue I was a part of in the retail packaging printing industry!.. It had to do with the use of Albert Einstein's image - which for your knowledge - is copyrighted. Any reproduction of his image or likeness (!) is an infringement. The first quote from the organization that handles this was $100,000 for the use of the image. Then after negotiating they dropped it to $10,000. We dropped the image. My face/hair looked just as wild as his did!! (only joking)

So I get gun-shy - but can see both sides of the issue....

Roz
 

JPete

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We send the customer back to the publisher or take it and have a tin plate made. We then cut that apart and arrange in multiple opening mat.
 

TheCat

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I make color/b&w copies of newspaper articles on acidfree paper at Kinko's. There is nothing posted about making illigal copies from newspapers, just regarding legal documents (passports, ID's, money etc.)
 

Jerry Ervin

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Originally posted by JRB:

My vote would to be just keep doing what you are doing.

I think you should stay away from the Hitchhiker,
John
I vote you just keep doing it. There is no way the home town newspaper would go after a framer for preserving an article for one of there clients.

I also agree that you should stay away from HH!
 

Sandie

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SHEEESH! I don't know why you are all dissing HH. The subject brought up only about 5 replies..much less than here on the Grumble..and, I think, arrived at the same conclusion.
Like most everyone else, I'll just keep doing it. I only wish my copies looked as good as Ron's sound. Im definitely a Photoshop neophyte in comparison.
Sandie in Maine
 

JRB

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Sandie, you have to remember that The Grumble is open to everyone, not just PPFA members. You are naturally going to get more responses. HH is also a much more controlled environment that can discourage repetitive responses.

John
 

BUDDY

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If you have had enough of this or if you think you know all the answers or if you dislike long post read no further.But if you want to see a different view ( that doesn't sem too snobish to me,but an effort to be helpful)read on.
I am reopening this thread in order to post three post from HH. The first two are really prlimanary, but pay close attention to the last post from Bill Parie.

This issue of stepping on copyrights seems to come up quite often in my
business, so I found the US government website That helps people understand
the law:

http://www.copyright.gov/

They have downloadable files of the exact wording of all the copyright laws.
It is REALLY ALOT to wade through, but it is worth the time to try to
understand it. The fines for infringement is very stiff! I recommend
downloading all the .pdf files and printing them out and making a little
book (well, kind of a big book) that you can keep in the office for
reference and to show to customers who want you to go over the line:

Here is the website:
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

BTW, whenever someone wants a copy of ANYTHING that is a protected work
(like a newspaper) I tell them they have to contact the owner of the
copyright (in this case, the newspaper) and ask them for written permission.
Usually the paper then offers to sell them a reprint, or gives them written
permission. Problem solved. Also, if the customer makes a copy themselves
(say at a self service copier), THEY are responsible for the infringement.
I tell them that if they want to take a chance, it is up to them, but I am
not willing to do it.


Celia Zanger
Windmill Studio
1655 Elmwood Avenue
Cranston, Rhode Island 02910
(401) 461-3911
www.windmillstudio.net

Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2004 20:26:54 -0500
From: BUDDY3453@aol.com
Subject: Re: copyright laws

Celia I agree with your opinion but i'd love for you to explain a little better WHY you said;"I tell them that if they want to take a chance, it is up to them, but I am
not willing to do it."
Could you please explain to some of the others why after reading the Privacy Act and it's Remadies and Penaltes you do not feel safe taking that chance? After all many do everyday and the worst they may receive is a Ceast and Decist order. So what worries you?
Charles BUDDY Drago CPF®
DBA Needles and Knots
Chalmette,La. 70043

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 20:15:20 -0600
From: "Bill Parrie" <parrie@asbank.com>
Subject: Re: copyright laws

Buddy, don't think for one minute that all you will get is a ceast and
decist order. I know of a case on the Gulf Coast a few years back, the only
notice anyone got was a lawsuit for $100,000.00 per infraction. When you
play with copyright laws, you can get burned very badly. If in doubt check
with a copywrite attorney before you do anything. These things can get real
ugly and cost you alot more then you would ever hope to make.
Regards,
Bill

Charles BUDDY Drago CPF®
 

JRB

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Jeez, lets just make our lives as complicated as we can, based on someone hearing about someone down on the Gulf Coast a few years ago who supposedly got burned for copyright infringement.

All we are talking about is reproducing something as it already exists in order to make it more compatible or longer lasting for framing purposes.

Perhaps if your operation would be considered "Deep Pocket" by your local, hungry for work, attorney, you should probably be concerned about this Gulf Coast person.

A small framing shop who is accommodating their customer is hardly going to be a target for a $100,000.00 lawsuit. Even if it does become such a target, the chances of an award being made or actually collected are slim to none.

Any reasonable lawyer is going to avoid such a junk lawsuit before it even starts. If he doesn't, the judge more than likely will.

I'll stand by my previous comment, reading the stuff on HH is probably not good for you and should be avoided. Worry can do you a lot more harm than a stupid, senseless, lawsuit.

John
 

BUDDY

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John's opinions are slightly misinformed .This is not the opinion of someone HEARING about a case but someone haveing very close knowledge of the facts.It also wasn't an attempt of some over zealious attorney to attck a deep pocketed shop, but an angry artist protecteing the use of her work by sueing any and all shops involved( as many as 10 -12). The case made the journals of ABN and the Plantiff won.
But I could have all my facts wrong so if you want the straight scoop, I suggest you either consult a coryright attorney or just email Bill Parie (I gave you his Email address) .Or you could join PPFA and participate in HHs . But then they are a self rightious bunch who are just know it all snobs.(NOT!)
I think these post show definet attempt to warn, inform and instruct others while respectfully disagreeing .Very similar to what you see here just in a different form.
BUDDY
 

Rogatory

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John,
Did someone on HHrs hurt your feelings or something? Why so bitter?

-David-
 

JRB

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OK, nobody hurt my feelings on HH, I just think it is a little over-controlled and a little uptight, that's all.

An artist, or a photographer suing anyone who copies their work to either make a profit, or to save money by not purchasing from them directly, should rightfully be sued, no two ways about it.

An artists or photographers work sells from next to nothing up wards into the thousands, and is probably that individuals livelihood, It should not be copied except by the originator or their agent.

That situation is a far cry from taking a page from a daily or weekly newspaper that sells from 25 cents to a dollar, and re- producing it so it will be more compatible for framing.

Nothing is being stolen from the newspaper, all writers and publishers still get full credit, no article is plagiarized or altered, the paper still received it's full selling price for it's product.

The only thing the paper would possibly be out is a few dollars that they would charge for a slick copy, if they even provide that service. All I'm saying is I do not think it is all that big of a deal, and is highly unlikely to end up in a courtroom.

As far a HH goes,if it is so darn wonderful, how come most PPFA members prefer The Grumble? My feeling on that is the people on The Grumble are just a whole lot more fun to spend your time with.

John
 

BUDDY

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John there you go again . This case ( if I have my facts straight,and "I'll admitt" I don't know everything. LOL)Involved the use of samples of art ( you know those mail out things) in framing that was sold in Frame shops. No Copying at all. They used what was sent to them. But it denied the copyright holder the sale that they MIGHT of made.Nothing was altered or Plegerised here either.But email Bill I'm sure he can tell you a lot more.The law has a lot more involved then you or even I think it does .However If your worng you could be paying a big price (as Bill said)or maybe causeing someone else to, so why not check?
My God! 20 of us could read the same law and get 20 different concepts ,but the Court is the only one that counts.
As to "how come most PPFA members prefer TFG " did it ever occur to you that They read BOTH so they don't prefer either and that they feel (as they should ) that both have a lot to offer just in a different format?
I feel like I'm speaking to my kids. The fact that different people approach the same situation form differnt avenues doesn't necessarily mean they disagree but it definatly doesn't mean they dislike each other or look down on the other person.(That sounds a lot like "your ether wit me or agin me").
BUDDY
 

David Waldmann

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Speeding is against the law. They give out tickets for it and you could even find yourself without a license or in jail in some places for excessive speed.

My personal opinion is that this copyright infringement (and I think that to the letter of the law, it is) is akin to speeding at 56 MPH in a 55 MPH zone. Yes, it's "illegal"; but everybody does it, nobody gets caught or even worries about getting caught.
 

UzZx32QU

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Fair Use?

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

___________________________________________

The way I read that is.

If I wanted to frame and mat a newspaper article and hang it in my store for sale. I would need a license - permission to do it.

However; if a client wants to frame an article that they are involved with and would prefer a backup copy be framed and they own the original, making one copy would be considered fair use. The charging to make the copy has no bearing on the subject.


1. copy is for clients personal use.

2. Really has no value except to client

3. You are just copying the article not the whole page of the paper

4. This has no effect of effecting the value of the newspaper.

Go for it,
framer
 

Jay H

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Just when I had just thought NOBODY read my link from earlier. You’re exactly right. FAIR USE! Under the right circumstance you can copy an entire book if you can't buy one! This seems perfectly 100% legal.
 

BUDDY

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Not to beat a dead horse ,and by all means do do what your consience dictates.However does ;"including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;" mean that it is OK for non profit work but not for profitable ventures?

Could this;"
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work." also include the potential sale of Vloks ,and other reproductions which most newspapersoffer for profitable sales?

and doesn't this ;"Under the right circumstance you can copy an entire book if you can't buy one! This seems perfectly 100% legal." mean that if you need this for say EDUCATIONAL purposes and don't have access to the book you can copy it with out infringeing?
As I said I don't begin to profess knowing all the iterpetations and I am as interested as anyone but can't there be more than one way to interpet some writeings,especially LAWS?
But Roll the dice you may be a big winner.
BUDDY
 

Ron Eggers

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Naive individuals, like me, would like to believe that copyright laws - ALL laws, in fact - are based on common sense.

I just ran across this note on News of the Weird. I hope it'll help put this issue into some kind of perspective.

In December, Australia's TV Channel 7 reported that many schools across the country, at the behest of the Australasian Performing Rights Association, were discouraging parents from making keepsake movies of their kids' appearances in Christmas musicals, because recording the holiday songs might violate copyright law. [Seven Network Ltd. (Australia), 12-22-03]
Comparing The Grumble and HH is like apples and oranges. I do it all the time, but it's not fair. The business-like flavor of HH is a necessity of its format, where each post is a separate email sent to every subscriber (unless you opt for the digest version, which has it's own set of problems.)

It may come as a shock, but there are people who like it that way and don't understand TG's irreverent banter.
 

JRB

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Ron, your right, there are people like that, I know, I've actually met some.

John
 

ERIC

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Originally posted by framer tg::
Fair Use? . . . in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work
Buy TWO COPIES of the d@m# paper and keep the receipt.
 
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