Conservation Silicon

Baer Charlton

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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This is an 85 year old point shoe. This customers grandmother had taught herself how to dance ballet well enough to join a dance troupe. These are the only surviving points.
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April 20th [two weeks ago] a framer in SoCal siliconed these shoes to the suede board using about half a tube of silicone. The ConClear glass is already fogged/etched from the off-gassing.

The only original photo of her in dance costume, up on point is already yellowing. Our customer's mother had it framed and sent it to her here in Portland. She knew that the photo had been in much better condition and not as yellow.

She is currently getting the photo restored as well as a color copy made of the original booklet on How-to learn ballet at home. [which was mounted on a scrap of red matboard] I won't put those valuable documents back in the package.

The customer was standing right there when I opened the package and the resulting waft of silicon stench stung our eyes. :eek:

Why do they do this cr*p? A few little dabs would have been plenty... and let it air out for a week.
 
In these circumstances, do you make suggestions that the customer contact Mr. Silicone and ask for a refund or maybe refund the amount it costs to fix everything? Though it doesn't look like that shoe is fixable.
 
Did I understand your abbreviations correctly Con Clear is that Conservation clear Glazing? And then they followed that with suede and 1/2 a tube of silicone glue? Does that constitute moderate conservation?LOL

I thought Silicone was a No-No in any C/P package and on textiles Steven's comment just sounds like common sense. I could maybe excuse the use of suede but the rest is ridiculous.

A paper conservator will probably restore the documents as you said ,But I doubt that even a textile conservator will be able to remove all the silicone from those heirloom slippers.

I agree Baer why does anyone think a half way C/P job is going to preserve anything?IMHO if there are any contaminants in the package the entire package is flawed, and this seems to be a good example don't you think?
BUDDY
 
Next week she and I will talk about what to do next.

Removal of as much silicon as possible would be my recommendation but can be very expensive labor. I know that our photo guy is going light on her as she called today and asked me what kind of job I thought he would be doing for $250 which would result in one print and a CD [my guess is a 25meg jpeg]. I assured her that he only knew how to do one kind of job and that was the best possible. Even he could smell the silicone an hour after I had removed it from the package. So she is fine with that. She got a very good photocopy of the booklet and will bring it in on Tuesday.

We'll see where it goes from here.

It just saddens me that something so delicate and so special was treated like an ax handle in a ally fight.
 
Thats so sad.

Has the store been contacted so that maybe some good could come of this in the future?

Also I wonder what the reason for removing the shoes are. Will the off gassing continue or will the sillycone cause more trouble as it ages? I'm just wondering becuase it looks pretty stuck to me. Is there any chance you are going to make a bad situation worse?

Carry on.
 
Due to the nature of the silk shoe, I will not be able to use any kind of chemical remover on the silicone. It would be a factor of carefully slicing it off then attempting to rub off as much as possible.

The idea of removing the most possible is to lessen the amount of future off-gassing. Also to get the silk away from the sulferic that off-gasses from the faux suede. I will probably suggest my lifting the shoes, and the customer sit in front of her TV for a few nights and just worry off as much silicon as she can. There is a very thin leather sole on these kinds of shoes, which is oil tanned leather and that may help.

I have a call into a close friend in London who has quite a bit of knowledge about leather and silicone, so I'm hopeful.
 
I would like to think that the idiot that did this to something that is obviously of heirloom quality doesn't read the Grumble. We have talked and discussed and dissected ad nauseum the use/misuse of silicone adhesives on this forum. And I hope that most of us would know when it would be unacceptable to use this type of adhesive.

Silicone, though very viscous, is easily absorbed by porous materials and leather is very porous. If you're gonna use the stuff (and I do for certain non-preservation situations) at least know what it will/will not do.

This may seem like something that could never happen to a professional but it only reinforces the fact that there are many so called framers out there who don't have a clue what they are doing when it comes to anything more complicated than rectangular holes in mats for news articles. We are so fortunate here on the Grumble to have the knowledge base of over 4000 framers and the power to answer most any question that comes up concerning our field of endeavor.

How many new framers have come to trust the advice that is posted here on the Grumble to advance their skills?? That is why it is so vitally important to be sure of what you post and to be clear and concise in your explanations of procedures. For somebody who has done a particular type of framing many times a printed set of steps may be easy to understand but, to a new framer, it may be confusing if any of the steps are left out or taken for granted or any warnings of possible damage isn't also included in the explanation. I am not accusing anyone of anything. I am simply saying that, if you are going to explain something to someone else, treat the explanation as one you are giving to a brand spanking new and shiny framer and include everything. It isn't that boring to read and it may help to minimize any confusion that may arise.

Many people won't ask questions because they think that they will be laughed at or criticized for asking something stupid. I have seen that statement precede so many good questions here on this forum over the years. That may not mean much to many of you but it means that there are alot of unanswered questions out there that we should encourage to be asked. My old tired reply to "stupid questions" is The only stupid question is one you have but are afraid to ask. For every question that a person thinks is stupid I'll wager there are at least 6 other people out there who would also like to know the answer.

Framerguy
 
Wouldn't it be nice to have been a fly on the wall in the shop at the moment the project was being quoted. I would really like to know if price was an issue. I bet it was. The framer had to find a way to do this job as fast and cheaply as possible or just lose the job to someone else that would do a fast and cheap job.

I could be wrong. Maybe the framer just didn't know any better.

It is easy for us to condemn another shop without knowing the whole story.
 
Jerry, 16x20 Decor frame, 2" partical board riser, two openings, one with TML fillet, one roll of ATG, 1/2 tube of silicone, 8" of "Framers Tape": $465.

I don't think price was the issue here. Preservation of a cherished relative was.

But then that is just MHO.

I don't know why, but I priced the job with hand wrapped rayon silk, and 1hr of stitching... $325.
But then, I'm brain dead and probabley left way to much on the table...NOT.
 
Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
16x20 Decor frame ... $465.

I don't think price was the issue here.
Your right. The framer beat up their customer.

Hopefully you can re-use the frame and glass.

For that kind of money and that size, I believe any framer could have gave them a really nice job.

OK I was wrong.
 
I would like to know if the silicone is truly what caused the photo to yellow. I wonder if was already yellowed and your customer just hadn't seen it in a while. Could it possibly have been stored in adverse conditions?

I agree that it is a poor framing job, but I'm skeptical about a photo yellowing within 2 weeks because of silicone.

I know suede mats have become an industry standard, so much so that they have become boring. There are so many beautiful fabrics for the industry, even the premium suedes they offer, that would be a better choice.
 
I'm not siding with the framer that did that, or condoning the use of silicone in most cases, in any way. Let me make that perfectly clear. But before I discovered The Grumble last Winter, I didn't know that silicone was a no-no, and I've been framing for a long time. I'm horrified now at the thought of how many projects I've siliconed over the years and what damage it might have caused. I guess I'll never know. I do know that even as ignorant as I was about the dangers of silicone, even I wouldn't have used it on that precious ballet slipper!
 
My first thought when seeing this project was to let the ballet slippers "hang" naturally by their ribbons and reinforce the "hanging" w/ a strong, invisible, nylon thread.
Baer, could you use the Attach EZ gun for this project or would that also be considered a no-no? I ask because I'm all thumbs when it comes to using a needle & thread.
 
Not to distract from the subject at hand, but this whole fiasco reminds me of a salvage job we had awhile back .... a so-called "reputable framer" from this area GLUED a signed/numbered Picasso to a sheet of paper mat board ....then threw a piece of regular glass (no mat/no spacer) on top .... and capped it off with a "remarkable" plain black FrameAmerica (or whatever that junk is called) frame. (And we're not talking about something that was done a long time ago ... more like a year or so ...)

The paper conservator that we worked with on that (justifiably) nailed the customer for about $800 to get it off the paper.

It just makes you wonder how some of these guys stay in business etc., etc., etc......
 
Stories like this are everywhere and always have been, about framers doing dastardly things to customers' precious property.

Those framers are not purposely destructive, they just don't know any better. It's probably not a matter of saving money for themselves or their customers, but a matter of ignorance. They're not bad people; some of them are quite friendly, but they seriously need to get a clue.

If that seems harsh, tell it to the owner of those ballet shoes.

Consider that of the 15,000-20,000 people doing framing as storefront business owners, employees, home-based business owners, and hobbyists-for-money in the USA, it is likely that fewer than 1/4 are PPFA members, and that fewer than 1/3 even know this forum exists.

The majority of un-connected framers surely do not realize how much they don't know. Of course nobody knows everything, but perhaps the best result of learning is realizing that there's so much more to learn. The more answers we discover; the better our understanding, the more questions we have. Learning is a continuous process.

Knowledge is not a goal, but a process some framers have yet to begin. Since all of us were like that once upon a time, let's help them when we can.
 
"How many new framers have come to trust the advice that is posted here on the Grumble to advance their skills?? That is why it is so vitally important to be sure of what you post and to be clear and concise in your explanations of procedures. For somebody who has done a particular type of framing many times a printed set of steps may be easy to understand but, to a new framer, it may be confusing if any of the steps are left out or taken for granted or any warnings of possible damage isn't also included in the explanation."

Thank you! I'm a new framer, and having an absolutely awful time finding an experienced framer to work in my shop. I'm learning as I go along, and appreciate the information and expertise I find here.
 
The reason for me writing that little tidbit that PaulSF quoted came about when I first started teaching at a local community college. Some of you have already heard this story so just take a break and go get a ham sandwich or a Coke.

I was an autobody repairman for 20 years when a series of circumstances went into play to put me into a position of Autobody Program Co-ordinator (fancy name for the guy who gets blamed for anything that goes wrong in the body shop!) at a nearby vocational section of the college. I really liked working with young people and couldn't wait 'till my classes started so I could impart on these fresh minds all this valuable wealth of knowledge that was stored in my mental files. I had just gotten through the first few weeks of lecture and demonstrations and felt good about taking my class out into the lab and starting them on basic sheet metal straightening with dolly and body hammer.

I am kneeling down next to a fender and just churning out a dent and smoothing it to almost perfection with my hammer and dolly and feeling so smug about my abilities and my thorough demonstration when I looked up and faced a whole group of totally bewildered students' faces!!! "Whaaaaaaat????", I exclaimed knowing that these gearheads HAD to have gone into some kind of goofy trance if they didn't follow that most excellant demonstration of dent removal!

One of the more vocal students (and one of the smarter ones also) spoke up and asked something like, "Mr. Reigle, we all can see what you're doin' with that body hammer but none of us can figure out what that big metal thing is in your right hand and what it's doin' back behind that fender??" Well, that caused me to lay down those trusted tools, step back, and mentally slap myself across the forehead!! I was so accustomed to using a body hammer and dolly and had straightened so many dents with this technique that I failed to mention what the dolly was used for and why I had it up behind that fender at all! I overlooked the obvious and never considered that these young students had never straightened a single dented fender yet and they didn't have a clue what I was doing with my hidden hand.

It took almost a full school year that first year to think out all of my demonstrations and not leave anything, ANYTHING to guesswork. It was very difficult for me because I was so used to doing my job that I did much of the tasks unconsciously with little thought to what was done or why. It just happened, something like automatically pushing in the clutch when shifting gears on a car. When you learned that technique, you thought out each step in the sequence, let off gas, depress clutch, move shifter into next position, extend clutch and press gas pedal. How many of you still do that step by step?? It really becomes a single move to most and that was how I was approaching these tasks while teaching them to my students.

And that is what I meant when I said we should be thorough with how we describe something here. New people who want to learn won't know those extra little steps that we don't even consider as something to talk about when describing something.

OK, now where's MY ham sandwich (Grey Poupon, if you don't mind) and my Coke???

FGII
 
Something tech support needs to understand, FGII. I notice it alot when calling some tech support number to fix a problem with my computer -- they walk you through a solution but leave out key steps, like "press enter." And it's that kind of close attention to detail that has us calling tech support in the first place!!
 
Tom and Paul this may not seem related to you but to me it sounded like your two combined stories made one that i experienced that IMHO says the same thing but from the other end of the spectrum.

ALOOOOONG time ago when I was attending Night school at Tulane for computer programing the professor asked us all if we understood how smart Computers were? We all answered sheepishly YES!. He all but screamed **** No. To write a program you must render your instructions to their simplest form. He went so far as to suggest that we consider explaining what we wanted the computer to do in terms that Kindergarten student would understand. the reason being all the internals of a computer could understand ( machine assembly language ) is Current or no current so all questions you asked would need to be answered with either "YES"= Current or "NO" = no current. Other than that it would give you the proverbial "DOES NOT COMPUTE" .

But as much as we expect of our computers and knowing this about what they need to be asked we still assume that neophytes of any specialized field understand everything we have learned in 10-20 or more years of education and experience and often become aggravated when the newbie doesn't grasp it.

I think when I was attending school that was called POOR INSTRUCTORS and come to think about it ,it still is.

In another class ( public speaking) I was always taught to speak to the level of your audience. And never to Flaunt your Knowledge if you wanted to TEACH anyone anything other than how conceited you were.

Now maybe you know why i don't teach. But also why some others shouldn't. LOL
BUDDY
 
As useful as The Grumble may be, let's try to remember that it is NOT tech support for framers or Picture Framing 101.

It is every users responsibility to weigh and evaluate the responses and advice given and make a personal decision about what to apply and what to ignore. (Right, Ellen?) Nobody walked to the mountaintop and came down with the ten commandments of framing and presented them on The Grumble.

This may sound odd coming from one of The Grumble's biggest fans but it worries me when I hear comments to the effect that, "Everything I need to know about framing I learned from The Grumble."
 
For the benefit of all of us who slept through Silicon 101... I just did a search for "silicon off gassing" and found only this thread.
so can someone please share their notes? When is it NOT appropriate to use silicon? I don't think we even have silicon in the shop right now, but we do use adhesives occasionally. Usually on non-porous items.

Do ANY liquid/gel adhesives qualify for conservation work?

(just another fool in the framing business)
 
Susan, there ARE times when silicon is OK... but to be on the safe side it should be GE850 which is "food grade" [go figure]. But it is next to impossible to get.

I can't get GOOP to register anything on a pH paper, so I'm not sure what to think. It is a type of silicon but it doesn't stink like the caulk kind.

It also seems to be removable easier.... but I wouldn't put it on silk tow shoes.

There are many alternatives that can be used and Chris Paschke will be coming out with a very up-to-date mounting book soon. Watch for it. [I've asked for the first signed copy...]

Also, I may point out; PPFA will be in Vegas next March.... and Chris will be teaching sure as the Beattles and Steve Jobs love little green apples.
Book early and book often. It's not that far to drive.
 
Alcohol curing silicone is used for sealing gaps
in exhibition cases, in museums and its only problem is its very short shelf life. It must be fresh or it won't set up. Acetic acid curing silicone can be identified by its strong smell and
it is not safe for use in a frame.
When a pebble must be included in a frame, a good
idea comes from Grumblers: attatch it with acrylic
gel medium, which can be soaked off the rock, at
a later date.
The only adhesives that are safe for preservation are are: starch paste for paper items, hide glue for wooden artifacts and frame parts and acrylic
emulsions for attatching decorative fabrics and
papers to mat or frame parts.

Hugh
 
Hugh Thanks for what seems like off gassing properties ,or at least the contaiminents they inject in the framing package,of silicone and other glues. But i think some of the concerns were how much they "MIGRATE" or ooze inbetween the fibers of the objects being adhered . Also how likely they are to be removed when they do ooze/migrate.

As Baer has said it may be all but impossible to remove all the Silicone ( of any type) from things like silk fabric .

On a seperate side note; I can't help but wonder about your sign off. Couldn't it also be true that if you're TOO busy speaking you can't listen attentively which may cause you to miss some very inlightening suggestions from some who aren't thought of as being INTELLIGENT which wouldn't be WISE at all.So sometimes the amount that you speak may proove you aren't too intelligent either.LOL
BUDDY
 
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