Condensation in Shadowbox

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Caliber Picture Framing

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Hello All!

Anyone have any experience with condensation in a shadowbox?

I recently built a huge shadowbox to house a flag and a sword, and the customer just called to say that the sword blade looks wet. I've heard about the possibility of condensation accumulating due to temperature changes, although I've never seen this. Haven't said too much yet, since I have not seen it. If it is true, taking this apart would be a enormous undertaking, and I was thinking of drilling very small holes up through the bottom of frame to let whatever moisture come out?:icon9:
 
Was it in a sunny window?

I'll bet Yes.
 
There are packets of silica gel available which can absorb moisture, but I think you need to find the cause of the moisture and condensation.
 
I suppose the problem could lie in where you are located. Up here, especially in the winter, hanging anything on an outside wall could produce condensation problems - I discovered this recently when I plugged in a rechargeable flashlight into a plug on an outside wall. The faint warmth of the charging caused water droplets to condense on the outside of the flashlight.
 
Yes, it is next to a wall of windows so I used Optium Museum. The location was not up for discussion, since she has a lot of other shadowboxes on that same wall.
Do you think the sun coming through the windows might be causing something?
 
The moisture will condense on the coolest object which I guess is the metal sword. The sun may be a factor creating water vapor, but the question is, where is the moisture originating?
If you had used glass instead of plexi, the condensation would probably also be on the glass.
If you take a glass of ice water into that area and the glass sweats a lot, then there is a moisture or humidity problem.
I wouldn't drill holes in the frame to let the moisture out because you might also let the moisture in, kind of like drilling holes in a leaky boat to let the water out.
 
Are the metal items in any of the others?
Left in cold car to long then into warm area...... bad
If the wall does not feel cold should not be to much of factor but could still contribute.
When box was put together your humidity may have been high and the materials abosorbed it. Then when put in sunny place it humidity attached itself to the coldest object.
The silica pouches may help but I would take it apart and wipe down the sword as a precaution nothing like a rusting sword....(satinless steel blade?) lower the humidity of the materials inside the box put back together. seal backing with a vapor barrier material.

Some others may have some other methods that will work too.
 
Surprisingly, there is another very similar shadowbox on the same wall, with a sword too, but not sure if that one is metal or not, the one I framed is an antique.

Taking this 200lb frame down, then apart is a nightmare. I had to assemble this upstairs at her home, because otherwise, it wouldn't go up the tight
stair case. Kill me know!
 
If as Gumby suggests it was put together in a high humidity area and it is just 'giving off' the moisture from the assembly area, you might be able to take it to a dry warm area and just open the back and let it dry out although as he says you might need to wipe the blade to prevent any surface rust or oxidation from appearing. Silica gel packs will absorb moisture but they might just be a temporary fix.
 
This is a good illustration of the difference between what we do and being a straight retailer of off-the-shelf goods.
:icon9: Rick
 
University Products sell a product called Art-Sorb in sheet form and could be placed in a frame. Their specifications say "Art-Sorb is a moisture-sensitive silica material which absorbs and desorbs moisture in order to offset changes in external relative humidity. It provides more moisture buffering capacity than regular density silica gel."
 
Caliber Picture Framing said:
Hello All!

Anyone have any experience with condensation in a shadowbox?

I recently built a huge shadowbox to house a flag and a sword, and the customer just called to say that the sword blade looks wet. I've heard about the possibility of condensation accumulating due to temperature changes, although I've never seen this. Haven't said too much yet, since I have not seen it. If it is true, taking this apart would be a enormous undertaking, and I was thinking of drilling very small holes up through the bottom of frame to let whatever moisture come out?:icon9:
Click to expand...

There are two things that come to mind that may help prevent future condensation. The first would be to clean the glass and wipe the sword with a product called Fog X. It is sold at auto supply shops and works great for preventing condensation on the windows. It's made by the same company that make Rain X. We use it a lot on the windows of our boat on days when it's raining and you need to leave the canvas up. I don't think it would be a problem for the mats either.

The second idea comes from something we do to our ski goggles to keep them from fogging up. We wipe them down on the inside with a glycerin soap solution. It works great for keeping goggles clear. Not sure if either of these would be considered archival, but it might save you a lot of headaches in the furture if you have to take the 200 lb shadowbox apart.
 
Caliber Picture Framing said:
The location was not up for discussion...
Click to expand...
I hope the customer will reconsider the display location. So long as the conditions exist that caused the condensation, it will continue.
Do you think the sun coming through the windows might be causing something?
Click to expand...

Yes. The issue is dew point, the phenomenon of natural physics that makes moisture condense on any surface that is about 20 degrees cooler than the air surrounding it. The temperature differential varies according to the relative humidity, surface temperature and ambient temperature. If you Google "dew point" you can learn all about it.

Dew point can occur whether the surface gets cooler or the air gets warmer, and the condensation will continue to form for as long as the necessary temperature differential exists. Of course, surfaces adapt to the surrounding air, so the dew point is usually short-lived.

You can find several threads about dew point in The Grumble archives, too.

There probably is nothing you can do to any part of the assembly that would prevent the condensation if the conditions are conducive. Moisture-absorbing materials, properly conditioned, would maintain low humidity, which would require a greater temperature differential before the dew point would be reached. That might help, or maybe not. Please do not coat anything inside the frame with any products or chemical solutions. The introduction of new chemistry inside the closed frame could cause more problems.

The only real fix is to move the frame away from direct sunlight.
 
I came across this company the other day, interesting products that may help.

http://www.dehumidify.com/The-Hydrosorbent-Family-of-Products

And if budget is not a great issue this from Keepsafe out of Canada could be an option http://keepsafe.ca/microclimate-sol...ntal-control/mini-one-microclimate-generator/

Or miniClima out of Germany also have a very nice micro climate control system, I was very impressed with this system when I saw it on a visit to Germany, http://www.miniclima.com/en/ebc.html

Just keep in mind as you try for a solution to the issue you have that a shadowbox frame is a micro climate enclosure, museums face the challange of controlling RH (relative humidity) virtually every time they create a display, there are some very ingenious methods that meet conservation standards used to control RH in display enclosures.
 
Humidity

As Jim pointed out, sunlight falling on hard, dense items in a damp situation and initate condensation, as the sun's heat drives mositure out of softer, fiberous materials (paper, cloth, and wood) which will condense onto the still cold metal or glass. If a frame is completely sealed, the moisture content can be kept below critical levels, but that requires careful labor. Adding humidity sponges, like silica gel or temporary moisture absorbers will only provide short term aid, but the problem is likely to reappear. In thinking about sealing out moisture, it is important to remember that plastics can hold back liquids but very few will hold back water vapor, for long. Glass, metals, and ceramic impregnated plastics are reliable vapor barriers.



Hugh
 
And if she hangs it on a wall that catches sun she'll also have problems with the inner materials deforming if they're not well-assembled. The mats will bend, glues will come unstuck, and then you'll have even more trouble. Not immediately, but within a few years.

We've seen it all with pictures we've either left in our front windows by mistake, or others we deliberately placed to see what would happen. The amount of condensation is crazy.
 
If the customer has similar shadowboxes on the same wall that are not reacting, it may be that the sun is hitting this one just right during the day. Covering it when the sun is directly on it might solve the problem and prevent having to open up the frame only to have the problem reoccur. Or shade the window during the day.

If the condensation has not reached the point that there is actually excess moisture in the frame (warping the boards, etc.) , this may correct the problem. I would start by moving it to an area of the house where temps and RH are constant for a few days to let it equalize.

The best solution is to move it permanently or to shield it from the sun. We can do a lot of things, but we can't alter the physical properties of the universe no matter how much our customers would like us to!
 
Simply put, you did not create the problem (environmental). Nothing you did in the framing process caused the condensation on the sword. Because you were the catalyst for the discovery of a problem doesn't make it your problem.
 
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