JackBingham CPF
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
The IRS says that anyone who is a "computer professional" (web site maintenance person) must be paid at least $29.73/hour. Is there any information on this?
Jack
Jack
Computer Programmers
- Thread starter JackBingham CPF
- Start date
Since when does the IRS establish wage rates in the open market? Not to my knowledge.
JackBingham CPF
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I didn't think they did either. I overheard this in another discussion this morning. Just wondering.
Article on NPR this morning had computer programmers in China getting paid $500.00/month.
The smart programmer in the US could outsource their own job and pocket $25.00++ an hour (using IRS scale). (Anybody see the Doonesbury dealing with this last week?)
The smart programmer in the US could outsource their own job and pocket $25.00++ an hour (using IRS scale). (Anybody see the Doonesbury dealing with this last week?)
D
Dermot
Guest
My wife has just employed a computer programmer at US$53 per hour plus all benefits …. 
I have my doubt that China is the location of $500 per month programmers China just hasn’t got enough programmers yet to allow them to export this service in any great way……now when it comes to India and Russia that is where the programming expertise are coming from….
And exporting/outsourcing of programming jobs outside national boundaries is a difficult task…..there have been some hairy situations that have stopped most serious business outsourcing any computer programming to another country….
Now when it comes to basic data entry that is a much different situation….
Jack were the jobs program jobs or data entry jobs……..just curious….
I’m almost certain that under the Homeland laws most companies would have to be very carefull about what computer programming they outsource……
I have my doubt that China is the location of $500 per month programmers China just hasn’t got enough programmers yet to allow them to export this service in any great way……now when it comes to India and Russia that is where the programming expertise are coming from….
And exporting/outsourcing of programming jobs outside national boundaries is a difficult task…..there have been some hairy situations that have stopped most serious business outsourcing any computer programming to another country….
Now when it comes to basic data entry that is a much different situation….
Jack were the jobs program jobs or data entry jobs……..just curious….
I’m almost certain that under the Homeland laws most companies would have to be very carefull about what computer programming they outsource……
Dermot,
You might want to listen to the article. Go to NPR.org and scroll down to the "World" section of this mornings programming on "Morning Edition". Click on the article about China and there's a link there to allow you to listen to the article.
The claim is that China is educating 100,000 programmers/year, and it sounds to me like they are aggressively pursuing the export of that talent.
You might want to listen to the article. Go to NPR.org and scroll down to the "World" section of this mornings programming on "Morning Edition". Click on the article about China and there's a link there to allow you to listen to the article.
The claim is that China is educating 100,000 programmers/year, and it sounds to me like they are aggressively pursuing the export of that talent.
JackBingham CPF
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I think the conversation I overheard was about hiring programmers for daily updating of website inventories.
Jack
Jack
D
Dermot
Guest
Hi Wally
I’m aware of that ……it is something we are watching very closely in Ireland….it is going to cause us some problems here….we have a big (by Irish standards) software industry in Ireland…..
China is ramping up …….but as I understand it for programmers they have a piece to go yet…..
What is actually hapanning or what we are seeing here in Ireland is that it is only data entry type jobs that are going off shore….
In fact two of the most recent new business in Ireland are an Indian and a Chinese software houses that have started in Ireland…….this is the bit that is to keep them compliant with the sort of security that many big businesses, governments, banks etc. etc. expect…….the big guys are just not letting the secure area of the programming out of sight……they want it on their door step…..
Jean’s new employee could be anywhere in the world…..it’s not the most complex role in the world….but mainly for security it is in Ireland……and that instruction came from the very top in Austin…..
Don’t think for a minute I’m dismissing the China source for jobs……..but reality is that I’m old enough to have seen all this before…..remember the “Made in Japan” scare mongering …….well I see quite a bit of this in the scares about China…..
For sure jobs are going to go to China as jobs went in the past to Japan…..but then we all adjust and things balance out after awhile…….yes there will be pain ……..but do we moan about reality or get on with it and adjust to the challenge ……….I think this whole China thing is going to produce as many opportunities for the US and Europe as the US and Europe is producing for China…..we are just finding it hard to see the opportunities…..but believe me they are there…..
Look at Germany it was in the dumps for years………..and what is happing….they are finding new ways to do business…..and are as of last month the new economy of Europe…...OK they are not out of it yet bet they are on the way…….and this is while they only have a holding Government…….I was in Germany a few weeks ago……and the buzz in business there was unbelievable there was a confidence that astounded me………and there are US companies who are moving and shaking…..I’m not talking about the big guys I’m talking about small US business who have seen the opportunities abroad…..and who are going for it……….a great example of what American companies can do is The Fletcher Terry Company……..they are a small business ………who are now a world leader….
Anyway that my take on it…….I’m sick of newscasters who deliver nothing but FEAR and negativity …….perhaps it is time we asked them to start talking now and again about some of those Great Companies and Business who just get on with it…….you would have been proud to be an American at the business conference I was at in Germany the US business were there in their droves and were world leaders in many areas…….
It’s a world market place these days and the survivors are going to be the ones who see their business in this light…….and that applies to the framing business equally as it would to any other business………OK I know some of the business people will dismiss the framing business a world business but have a look at some of the business that are now global…..they started in a garage one for example is HP (yes I said it I mentioned) the opposition……The part of HP which started it all (now hived off) started in a garage in California making scientific/laboratory equipment……that business is now a world business
Wally your business would fit into any part of the world if you so chose……you could lift your business plan and plug it into some of the software (from some of the accountancy companies) which allows you to analyse your numbers…….this software allow you to compare costs information for anywhere in the world you could compare Florida with Arizona or Ireland or the UK or where ever…….it has defaults which take care of all the local costs including taxes…..I’m talking major population centres……..it’s no big deal…….the information you have for Florida is as relevant for Ireland with adjustment as anything you will get…..it’s a regular analyses fror many business big and small every day…
D
Dermot
Guest
Jack
That’s a data entry job. $500 sounds about right and yes that could be done in China...and it would make good business sense to out source to a lost cost area…..
"Article on NPR this morning had computer programmers in China getting paid $500.00/month."
Wally is correct. I listened to the program this morning and they are programers. They are currently tweeking programs to save companys money. The owner said that the contracts they now have are not challanging the programers at this time - but they are there and they are ready to expand. Listen to the program!
Mitch
Wally is correct. I listened to the program this morning and they are programers. They are currently tweeking programs to save companys money. The owner said that the contracts they now have are not challanging the programers at this time - but they are there and they are ready to expand. Listen to the program!
Mitch
D
Dermot
Guest
Mitch
I’m not debating that China has not got a computer tweaking industry……the radio program can call the operatives what they want but they are not programmers….China has not got that capacity yet….
Believe me……… I’m very close to one of the biggest computer companies in the world (some would say the biggest) and some of the issues around programming and when it comes to China and programmers they are just not there yet…….but they will in the not to distant further ….
Ireland, India and Russia is where the real programmers are outside the US…….in fact Ireland is the biggest exporter of Software programs in the world including the US……the Irish subsidiary (EMEA) of Microsoft is a 12 Billion $ business….and the Irish Subsidiary (EMEA) for Oracle is a similar size business……all of the main players for software have operations in Ireland….so we'er kept very abreast of what is happing worldwide in the software business…..
The whole trust of my response is to try and dispel the sort of FEAR reporting that is going on around the computer business worldwide…..and how reporters can get 2 + 2 and come up with 6….
For example……did you know that despite outsourcing the US (US main land) have created more computer jobs in the US than have been lost to other locations…….the US is holding it’s own very well in what is now a global business
I like NPR……it is very much like our national radio (RTE) but our guy’s can over state the case sometimes also…..it’s nothing new in news reporting they just want to give the most dramatic account of what they report ……..I no longer take journalists reports at face value.
I’m not debating that China has not got a computer tweaking industry……the radio program can call the operatives what they want but they are not programmers….China has not got that capacity yet….
Believe me……… I’m very close to one of the biggest computer companies in the world (some would say the biggest) and some of the issues around programming and when it comes to China and programmers they are just not there yet…….but they will in the not to distant further ….
Ireland, India and Russia is where the real programmers are outside the US…….in fact Ireland is the biggest exporter of Software programs in the world including the US……the Irish subsidiary (EMEA) of Microsoft is a 12 Billion $ business….and the Irish Subsidiary (EMEA) for Oracle is a similar size business……all of the main players for software have operations in Ireland….so we'er kept very abreast of what is happing worldwide in the software business…..
The whole trust of my response is to try and dispel the sort of FEAR reporting that is going on around the computer business worldwide…..and how reporters can get 2 + 2 and come up with 6….
For example……did you know that despite outsourcing the US (US main land) have created more computer jobs in the US than have been lost to other locations…….the US is holding it’s own very well in what is now a global business
I like NPR……it is very much like our national radio (RTE) but our guy’s can over state the case sometimes also…..it’s nothing new in news reporting they just want to give the most dramatic account of what they report ……..I no longer take journalists reports at face value.
JackBingham CPF
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I'm doing more checking on this but I did find out that data entry personnel do not have to be paid $30.00 per hour.
However, Computer programmers, yes. Most maintenance people are programmers. In order to be considered a "professional" not subject to overtime, they must be paid at least that amount according to the IRS.
I'm still checking for more info. on this. This brings up another question. If a framer is not making $30.00 per hour, does this make him a non-professional picture framer?
Jack
However, Computer programmers, yes. Most maintenance people are programmers. In order to be considered a "professional" not subject to overtime, they must be paid at least that amount according to the IRS.
I'm still checking for more info. on this. This brings up another question. If a framer is not making $30.00 per hour, does this make him a non-professional picture framer?
Jack
"being exempt from overtime" is a whole different issue.
My initial business training involved the terms "hourly" vs "salary". Salary employees had to be paid $xxx per week to be considered exempt from overtime payment. I think that is what you are talking about.
With that said, a programer can be hourly or salary, elegable for overtime or exempt from overtime.
My initial business training involved the terms "hourly" vs "salary". Salary employees had to be paid $xxx per week to be considered exempt from overtime payment. I think that is what you are talking about.
With that said, a programer can be hourly or salary, elegable for overtime or exempt from overtime.
There must be some wires crossed here. The IRS doesn't have anything to do with "exempt" status of employees. That's the Department of Labor.
http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/whd/fairpay/fs17a_overview.htm
I am in waaaaaay over my head here but at one time I did dabble in the field and my son is a Graduate Informatons Technolgist (IT).
IMHO what the IRS might just be doing is setting minmum wage reporting sort of like they do with sevice individuals. Ithink the way that works is the service individuals are taxed as though they receive a 15% gratuity whether they do or not. So it may just be that the IRS is saying they are going to TAX programers as though they are being paid a minimum wage rate regaurdless of what they are paid but they must report anything more. But more importantly the IRS doesn't regulate any thing to do with pay scales outside the USA.
Next when I was in the field there was a hughe differance between "TWEAKING" an existing program and writting a completely new one . The later is what a PROGRAMMER does ,but a lot of people think anyone who makes refinements is a programer.Not So.
My daughter is a data entry wizard and works for a national newspaper and they think she is a Computer genius. However when things go wrong she differs to her IT brother and others friends who know even more then he does and none of them are TRUE Programmers .
When last I checked TRUE PROGRAMMERS are becomeing as rare as hens teeth ,since people are getting by with adjusting pre-written programs and getting credit for writeing the whole thing.
Now maybe Dermot,Mike and Framer can correct all my errors on Programming and Bob Carter can correct my IRS assumptions,and assumptions.LOL
BUDDY
IMHO what the IRS might just be doing is setting minmum wage reporting sort of like they do with sevice individuals. Ithink the way that works is the service individuals are taxed as though they receive a 15% gratuity whether they do or not. So it may just be that the IRS is saying they are going to TAX programers as though they are being paid a minimum wage rate regaurdless of what they are paid but they must report anything more. But more importantly the IRS doesn't regulate any thing to do with pay scales outside the USA.
Next when I was in the field there was a hughe differance between "TWEAKING" an existing program and writting a completely new one . The later is what a PROGRAMMER does ,but a lot of people think anyone who makes refinements is a programer.Not So.
My daughter is a data entry wizard and works for a national newspaper and they think she is a Computer genius. However when things go wrong she differs to her IT brother and others friends who know even more then he does and none of them are TRUE Programmers .
When last I checked TRUE PROGRAMMERS are becomeing as rare as hens teeth ,since people are getting by with adjusting pre-written programs and getting credit for writeing the whole thing.
Now maybe Dermot,Mike and Framer can correct all my errors on Programming and Bob Carter can correct my IRS assumptions,and assumptions.LOL
BUDDY
anyone who is a "computer professional"
interesting....a decade ago the IRS said that all programmers were classed the same as secretaries/general office workers. they also said we couldn't act as private contractors UNLESS we were employed thru some "real" business(not our own/programming source, but some other biz)....crazy world! looks like all IT'rs will soon eat rice & talk strangely(even more strangely than 'normal')
interesting....a decade ago the IRS said that all programmers were classed the same as secretaries/general office workers. they also said we couldn't act as private contractors UNLESS we were employed thru some "real" business(not our own/programming source, but some other biz)....crazy world! looks like all IT'rs will soon eat rice & talk strangely(even more strangely than 'normal')