F
framer
Guest
This thread is for an open discussion about employers - employee relations and what's expected from both. Also how and when ground rules should be set up to modify the job discription.
C
Charles Lowry
Guest
framer, I appreciate this, but I am staying out of anymore discussions on this topic. I have made my feelings known. I don't know WHERE I fit. Janet and I co-own, no %'s. I guess, since we employ a part-time person, I am technically an employer.
I have come to 'know' most of the regular Grumblers. I feel like I'm sitting down with old friends at night when we pull up the Grumble. In fact, Janet and I fight to see who's gonna get the computer first. Feelings, my own included, run high on this topic, and I don't want to say anymore than I have.
You ALL have been helpful to both of us. This is the best thing for advice and fun that I have seen. Whether it's Krispy Kreems or c/p framing, this is a great place.
This thread is a good idea for those who have something further to say. Thank you, Bill for your endless work in making it available to us all.
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May all your corners join without sanding
I have come to 'know' most of the regular Grumblers. I feel like I'm sitting down with old friends at night when we pull up the Grumble. In fact, Janet and I fight to see who's gonna get the computer first. Feelings, my own included, run high on this topic, and I don't want to say anymore than I have.
You ALL have been helpful to both of us. This is the best thing for advice and fun that I have seen. Whether it's Krispy Kreems or c/p framing, this is a great place.
This thread is a good idea for those who have something further to say. Thank you, Bill for your endless work in making it available to us all.
------------------
May all your corners join without sanding
Frame Harbor
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Audrey,
You want more of your mates and other framer employees to come to the Grumbler? Well, such topics like "Can you believe my boss?", "Who's boss is greedier?" , "Can you believe this employee?", "Is he slow or lazy?" will do it. Far from being confrontational, such topics would rise the audience of the Grumbler across the board. Business owners will learn a lot while employees, at their turn, will be driven into reading other threads as well and get better, too. We are all on the same boat, let's not ignore each other and call peace a suppressed conflict or silent disagreement. Maybe we can bridge the gap between the two parts if we can explain why labor is $50-60/hour when it's quoted to the costumer and only 8-10 bucks when the check is handed out to our employees. After all, material costs are not overmarked similarly.
Framing is a labor intensive activity; however, framers seem to be more concerned with tools and ever lasting mat cutting blades than intelligently using their labor force.
You want more of your mates and other framer employees to come to the Grumbler? Well, such topics like "Can you believe my boss?", "Who's boss is greedier?" , "Can you believe this employee?", "Is he slow or lazy?" will do it. Far from being confrontational, such topics would rise the audience of the Grumbler across the board. Business owners will learn a lot while employees, at their turn, will be driven into reading other threads as well and get better, too. We are all on the same boat, let's not ignore each other and call peace a suppressed conflict or silent disagreement. Maybe we can bridge the gap between the two parts if we can explain why labor is $50-60/hour when it's quoted to the costumer and only 8-10 bucks when the check is handed out to our employees. After all, material costs are not overmarked similarly.
Framing is a labor intensive activity; however, framers seem to be more concerned with tools and ever lasting mat cutting blades than intelligently using their labor force.
Slow
Lazy
Greedy
Are very larger terms for anyone to understand.
How do you become less slow?
How do you become less lazy?
What does greedy mean?
In who's mind are these labels correct?
The bosses? The Employees?
Sometimes these terms are individual perceptions of a situation that is not understood by the person observing it. Perhaps we could try giving the other person the benefit of the doubt until we know more or even discuss it further so that it might be understood.
Many times situations are not what they appear to be.
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
Lazy
Greedy
Are very larger terms for anyone to understand.
How do you become less slow?
How do you become less lazy?
What does greedy mean?
In who's mind are these labels correct?
The bosses? The Employees?
Sometimes these terms are individual perceptions of a situation that is not understood by the person observing it. Perhaps we could try giving the other person the benefit of the doubt until we know more or even discuss it further so that it might be understood.
Many times situations are not what they appear to be.
------------------
Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
Frame Harbor
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
The fact that framing shops derive their prices by taking in account $ 50-60/hour for labor is a publicly known secret and more than one employee had ever questioned this apparent injustice.
Not having a decent explanation at hand will just reinforce employees' feeling that something fishy is going on. Since no employer offered an answer to this delicate question, I'm going to propose the answer I gave when challenged with that issue: "labor price is dictated by the highest qualified worker in that shop. Before hiring his first employee, that worker was the owner himself and, if things go wrong, he'll be the last worker that would try to keep the boat afloat. His labor's price cannot compare with that of a helper and, getting and paying for help is not a reason to compromise on his shop's price structure".
I am encouraging my workers to talk openly and ask question for I am willing to answer them. This way I don't just rise a new generation of good framers but, when time comes for one of them to go in business for himself, he'll not undercut my prices in order to get my clients which, unfortunately, is the way American framing history is unfolding. More over, the fact that he learned the trade with me, and is able to perform at my standards, is going to be his CPF and relate him to a trade arbor that goes hundreds of years back in time.
Not having a decent explanation at hand will just reinforce employees' feeling that something fishy is going on. Since no employer offered an answer to this delicate question, I'm going to propose the answer I gave when challenged with that issue: "labor price is dictated by the highest qualified worker in that shop. Before hiring his first employee, that worker was the owner himself and, if things go wrong, he'll be the last worker that would try to keep the boat afloat. His labor's price cannot compare with that of a helper and, getting and paying for help is not a reason to compromise on his shop's price structure".
I am encouraging my workers to talk openly and ask question for I am willing to answer them. This way I don't just rise a new generation of good framers but, when time comes for one of them to go in business for himself, he'll not undercut my prices in order to get my clients which, unfortunately, is the way American framing history is unfolding. More over, the fact that he learned the trade with me, and is able to perform at my standards, is going to be his CPF and relate him to a trade arbor that goes hundreds of years back in time.
Hourly shop labor is not the cost of an employee per hour. It is the cost per hour, for each hour the business is open.
Frame Harbor, do your employees monitor the Grumble?
Frame Harbor, do your employees monitor the Grumble?
Framechick said on another thread, "My frustration as an employee comes more quickly in a small shop". And she is leaving for a larger employer next month.
Framechick, please expound on your comment. Why does your frustration come more quickly in a small shop? What is your frustration, anyway?
I'm hoping for a learning experience here.
We've always had fewer than four employees, and those who previously worked in larger shops have said our work environment is much better. Three of our former employees have gone on to own their own shops (with our blessing and, in some cases, our help), and seem to be doing well.
Could it be that you've just worked for the wrong small shops?
Framechick, please expound on your comment. Why does your frustration come more quickly in a small shop? What is your frustration, anyway?
I'm hoping for a learning experience here.
We've always had fewer than four employees, and those who previously worked in larger shops have said our work environment is much better. Three of our former employees have gone on to own their own shops (with our blessing and, in some cases, our help), and seem to be doing well.
Could it be that you've just worked for the wrong small shops?
Frame Harbor
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Jframe,
No, they don't. Still in the process of learning English
But that does not mean they don't grumble.
No, they don't. Still in the process of learning English
But that does not mean they don't grumble.
The hours the business is open includes alot, eg rent, utilities, repairs, new equipment and on and on. After this winter we will all have to raise that rate. Oh I forgot that little no no that includes profit.
OOP's I got off the subject.
PS for those who haven't firgured it out, you can edit your post by clicking on the 3rd icon.
[This message has been edited by JPete (edited March 31, 2001).]
OOP's I got off the subject.
PS for those who haven't firgured it out, you can edit your post by clicking on the 3rd icon.
[This message has been edited by JPete (edited March 31, 2001).]
A
Audrey
Guest
If I click "labor" on FullCalc, an hour is worth almost forty bucks....and while I won't say precisely what I get paid, it's NOT ANYWHERE CLOSE. *chuckle* It does seem a bit contrary at first that if my employer were to bill someone for my services, they would be worth $40, but I get less than a fourth of that.
*shrug* That's the way business is run; an employer would argue that that covers rent, electricity, overhead, materials, etc., and their own connections that brought that customer in. And they could also argue that if I want to make the full forty bucks, I'm free to become my own boss, and hit the pavement the same way they do.
So while it does seem unfair in a very primitive, "D*****!" kind of way, my employers pay me what the market will bear, and they are in the business of making money, not in making me rich.
God knows nobody frames for a living because of the incredible perks....LOL
When it comes time for year-end review, though..... "Brother, can you spare a dime?"
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
[This message has been edited by framer (edited April 04, 2001).]
*shrug* That's the way business is run; an employer would argue that that covers rent, electricity, overhead, materials, etc., and their own connections that brought that customer in. And they could also argue that if I want to make the full forty bucks, I'm free to become my own boss, and hit the pavement the same way they do.
So while it does seem unfair in a very primitive, "D*****!" kind of way, my employers pay me what the market will bear, and they are in the business of making money, not in making me rich.
When it comes time for year-end review, though..... "Brother, can you spare a dime?"
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
[This message has been edited by framer (edited April 04, 2001).]
rosetl
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Just curious to know if employees are aware that a business pays matching funds on the social security & medicare amounts that come out of the paychecks as well other misc. taxes per state and a percentage of every dollar of wages paid for worker's compensation insurance? This is never less than 15%, and often closer to 20% in the framing business. Thus, $10 an hour can easily mean $12 has to be profited somewhere in the business to pay $10.
This is not meant to be grumbling -- just facts that are often not realized.
On the $50 an hour thing -- again -- grrr.
How about what may be a fairly simple analogy -- if the "annoyed" ones would take off the angry position and care to listen. Again, it is not meant to **** anyone off.
Out of anyone's personal paycheck comes taxes, rent, food, phone and whatever other necessities there are in life. What's left over is called discretionary income -- that which you can spend on what you want -- clothes, dinner & the movies or savings, for example.
Honest, anything not "required" to maintain life practically is called discretionary income, no matter how necessary some of those items sure seem to be for all of us.
The amount of money a business has left over after rent, payroll, insurance, utilities, promotion, legal requirements and expenses, cost of goods, repairs, bookkeeping, accountants--whatever, is discretionary income. This has an accounting term -- but it's the same thing -- I tend to call it net profit. (please correct, if I'm wrong.)
As an individual "makes" $10 an hour, his discretionary income easily may end up being $1.00 an hour. ($40 a week) (That's dreaming to have that much left over here in LA)
And, a business charges $50 an hour and it's discretionary income easily could be $5 (using the same percentages). At 40 hours that's $200 a week. (Owner's portion comes out of that as owner wages is not a legal requirement.)
Obviously, these are hypothetical numbers -- but not unrealistic from my experience. So - it's all in the numbers. You make $10 an hour and take home about 8.50 --cover necessities and end up with 1. You have a credit card debt or made a long distance phone call or two and you have 25 cents.
Business starts with $50, take out $12 one employee's expense, $12 for the salesperson expense, $5 to 10 for rent,.....and after the basics ends up with $5 net profit---to do with what the financial manager wants---pay for new samples, pay for the balance of that box of museum glass that hasn't sold yet, buy cookies for the crew, or save it to meet the weeks where there is no net profits.
Both can raise their discretionary incomes by selling more hours or reducing basic expenses. How well one does with their income has to do with management and budget---personal or business---not just how high the dollars seem.
I don't think there are many frames shops that could stay in business if they only sold "shop time". Shop time fees are the bare bones of existance. People like Jay who do financial seminars have statistics from many frame shops to show this.
Oops - I soapboxed again.
TL - Studio Frame
This is not meant to be grumbling -- just facts that are often not realized.
On the $50 an hour thing -- again -- grrr.
How about what may be a fairly simple analogy -- if the "annoyed" ones would take off the angry position and care to listen. Again, it is not meant to **** anyone off.
Out of anyone's personal paycheck comes taxes, rent, food, phone and whatever other necessities there are in life. What's left over is called discretionary income -- that which you can spend on what you want -- clothes, dinner & the movies or savings, for example.
Honest, anything not "required" to maintain life practically is called discretionary income, no matter how necessary some of those items sure seem to be for all of us.
The amount of money a business has left over after rent, payroll, insurance, utilities, promotion, legal requirements and expenses, cost of goods, repairs, bookkeeping, accountants--whatever, is discretionary income. This has an accounting term -- but it's the same thing -- I tend to call it net profit. (please correct, if I'm wrong.)
As an individual "makes" $10 an hour, his discretionary income easily may end up being $1.00 an hour. ($40 a week) (That's dreaming to have that much left over here in LA)
And, a business charges $50 an hour and it's discretionary income easily could be $5 (using the same percentages). At 40 hours that's $200 a week. (Owner's portion comes out of that as owner wages is not a legal requirement.)
Obviously, these are hypothetical numbers -- but not unrealistic from my experience. So - it's all in the numbers. You make $10 an hour and take home about 8.50 --cover necessities and end up with 1. You have a credit card debt or made a long distance phone call or two and you have 25 cents.
Business starts with $50, take out $12 one employee's expense, $12 for the salesperson expense, $5 to 10 for rent,.....and after the basics ends up with $5 net profit---to do with what the financial manager wants---pay for new samples, pay for the balance of that box of museum glass that hasn't sold yet, buy cookies for the crew, or save it to meet the weeks where there is no net profits.
Both can raise their discretionary incomes by selling more hours or reducing basic expenses. How well one does with their income has to do with management and budget---personal or business---not just how high the dollars seem.
I don't think there are many frames shops that could stay in business if they only sold "shop time". Shop time fees are the bare bones of existance. People like Jay who do financial seminars have statistics from many frame shops to show this.
Oops - I soapboxed again.
TL - Studio Frame
How many grumbler employers have given up a pay check or two so that employees or the landlord can be paid?
gemsmom
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2000
- Posts
- 3,576
Framer, I lay the down ground rules for employment even before the individual is hired. Pay, benefits, what I expect from them as an employee, how they will advance, and why they wouldn't is discussed up front. rosetl, excellent post. Employees only see the money that comes in. They never see what goes out. JFrame, I have never had to give up a paycheck. If it came to that, I would seriously consider closing my doors.
Frame Harbor
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Hope nobody is insinuating that partial or ful rent, utilities, repairs, shop insurance, over head and profits are part of $50-60/h nominal labor cost.
lise
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Cornel, could you elaborate now that you've just thrown fuel in someone's fire.
Thank you.
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Lisa Kozokowsky C.G.A.H.
Frameswest Inc.
Thank you.
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Lisa Kozokowsky C.G.A.H.
Frameswest Inc.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2000
- Posts
- 17,021
Maybe a safer term for this $50-$60 value would be Overhead expense. Maybe the employees would feel more comfortable, but I'm afraid the clients would not.
Have any employeers calculated their per hour, post-tax net profit? I'm almost afraid to do it. I've always had a long standing contention that I would gladly give all my gross receipts to the IRS in exchange for my yearly contribution to them. And for that, I would still do my job at my present compensation. I pay them(and the state) a ton more than I make.
Have any employeers calculated their per hour, post-tax net profit? I'm almost afraid to do it. I've always had a long standing contention that I would gladly give all my gross receipts to the IRS in exchange for my yearly contribution to them. And for that, I would still do my job at my present compensation. I pay them(and the state) a ton more than I make.
Janet
True Grumbler
Yeah, Bob, but don'tcha enjoy it?
Hope you still get that "rush" of beautifully designing a custom job and completing the piece and it turns out better than you ever expected. Then you get the pleasure of presenting it to the customer and watching their face as it displays awe, gratitude and you know they are MORE than happy!
Janet
GO DUKE!!!!
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How cheap do you want it to look??
Hope you still get that "rush" of beautifully designing a custom job and completing the piece and it turns out better than you ever expected. Then you get the pleasure of presenting it to the customer and watching their face as it displays awe, gratitude and you know they are MORE than happy!
Janet
GO DUKE!!!!
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How cheap do you want it to look??
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2000
- Posts
- 17,021
Janet-How many points will you give me for Arizona Wildcats. Say, maybe a friendly wager of, oh, maybe a year's supply of Krispy Kreme's? With powerhouse, perennial champ Duke going against lowly Arizona, I'm thinking maybe 9 points?
Frame Harbor
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Lise,
Oooops! Do your employees monitor the Grumble? LOL.
In fact, I'm trying to animate a forum that, in my opinion, is way too conservative and rigid. Even boring at times. By so doing, not only we address, learn and solve new problems (aside eternal framing first grade quizzes like: mitering, mat cutting, glass cleaning, v-nailing, dry mounting and needlepoint stretching) but, in the process, debates may occur which are instructive and extremely beneficial (the equivalent of healthy growth) for the Grumbler. Recently, Framer had effectively and prematurely closed and killed an animated thread and created two phony, segregated chambers (in which, predictably, nothing happens as long as pairs would only hear from each other of things they already knew and agreed upon) and, as a gift, a third chamber in which blacks and whites can come and play together if they behave and agree not to discuss a number of issues likely to turn into open debates. I resent to address a segregated audience. With my questioning of this or that, I am trying to bring people back together and debating a few new and, I hope, meaningful issues, other than cutting a mat or patting the sofa. LOL. Not that cutting a mat is less important but, I expect framers to have learned that lesson long before going into this business. Besides, Grumbler has a huge and resourceful archive. Right?
Lise, I don't ask or bring in new topics because I know the answers. I have much more many questions than answers to offer. Now, you don't want me to stop calling things the way I see them or ask one or two of my questions, do you?
Cornel
By the way, do you break down your price to your client? Is that fair? Does he/she care how much the windshield is worth when buying a new car?
[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited April 01, 2001).]
Oooops! Do your employees monitor the Grumble? LOL.
In fact, I'm trying to animate a forum that, in my opinion, is way too conservative and rigid. Even boring at times. By so doing, not only we address, learn and solve new problems (aside eternal framing first grade quizzes like: mitering, mat cutting, glass cleaning, v-nailing, dry mounting and needlepoint stretching) but, in the process, debates may occur which are instructive and extremely beneficial (the equivalent of healthy growth) for the Grumbler. Recently, Framer had effectively and prematurely closed and killed an animated thread and created two phony, segregated chambers (in which, predictably, nothing happens as long as pairs would only hear from each other of things they already knew and agreed upon) and, as a gift, a third chamber in which blacks and whites can come and play together if they behave and agree not to discuss a number of issues likely to turn into open debates. I resent to address a segregated audience. With my questioning of this or that, I am trying to bring people back together and debating a few new and, I hope, meaningful issues, other than cutting a mat or patting the sofa. LOL. Not that cutting a mat is less important but, I expect framers to have learned that lesson long before going into this business. Besides, Grumbler has a huge and resourceful archive. Right?
Lise, I don't ask or bring in new topics because I know the answers. I have much more many questions than answers to offer. Now, you don't want me to stop calling things the way I see them or ask one or two of my questions, do you?
Cornel
By the way, do you break down your price to your client? Is that fair? Does he/she care how much the windshield is worth when buying a new car?
[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited April 01, 2001).]
lise
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Cornel, I simply wanted to know what you feel constitutes labour costs. Audrey seemed concerned that we (employers) may be making a profit on labour costs and some people have different ideas as to what is factored into labour costs. (Bob, what's your take?)
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Lisa Kozokowsky C.G.A.H.
Frameswest Inc.
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Lisa Kozokowsky C.G.A.H.
Frameswest Inc.
C
Charles Lowry
Guest
"powerhouse, perennial champ Duke", "9 points"...
Say, Bob, you ARE a good businessman. And after lowly Maryland like to have killed them?? Sorry for the digression. Good luck to Arizona. May the best team win!!
Say, Bob, you ARE a good businessman. And after lowly Maryland like to have killed them?? Sorry for the digression. Good luck to Arizona. May the best team win!!
A
Audrey
Guest
Let me just say that my point originally on this thread was not to bitch that I am entitled to fifty bucks an hour....from what I understand, labor charges are to keep the balance of profitability up when an employee has to go "offline" for an unusual/time consuming project. (If a normal project takes me half an hour, and a particular project takes me three, productivity will drop, as will profitability, unless there are charges over and above normal to compensate for that extra time.) It has very little to do with what I am worth an hour.
But my original, well-intentioned point was that this common sense doesn't always make you feel better about it. LOL If I were an interior designer, for instance, and I walked into your frame shop, and you quoted me $450 for a job....let's say I agree, and you are happy that you made your money, and I walk away with my new frames.
And let's say that a few months later you see your work on the wall in someone's home, and you ask them where they got it/how much they paid for it, and they said, "Oh, I paid my interior designer $900 for them--aren't they great?"
Now, I, as the interior designer, did not do anything wrong at all; I paid you what you think you're worth, and then someone else turned around and paid me what they think I'M worth. You couldn't have sold my client your work for $900. But I DID. And it was my clout with my clients that allowed me to charge twice what you did for the SAME EXACT WORK. If you were me, you'd be making my money...but since you're not, you're stuck with $450.
And you'd be lying if you said that this wouldn't kind of chap your a**. LOL It's not like anyone did anything wrong, but you still think to yourself, "D*****, I can't believe he charged twice what I did, and he got it! And I did all the work!"
And this is the employer/employee situation. It's not wrong at all, it's just occasionally annoying. LOL
So I meant no hostility towards anyone charging $50 an hour for labor....I was making what I think is an amusing observation on the nature of business.
C'est la vie, eh?
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
[This message has been edited by framer (edited April 04, 2001).]
But my original, well-intentioned point was that this common sense doesn't always make you feel better about it. LOL If I were an interior designer, for instance, and I walked into your frame shop, and you quoted me $450 for a job....let's say I agree, and you are happy that you made your money, and I walk away with my new frames.
And let's say that a few months later you see your work on the wall in someone's home, and you ask them where they got it/how much they paid for it, and they said, "Oh, I paid my interior designer $900 for them--aren't they great?"
Now, I, as the interior designer, did not do anything wrong at all; I paid you what you think you're worth, and then someone else turned around and paid me what they think I'M worth. You couldn't have sold my client your work for $900. But I DID. And it was my clout with my clients that allowed me to charge twice what you did for the SAME EXACT WORK. If you were me, you'd be making my money...but since you're not, you're stuck with $450.
And you'd be lying if you said that this wouldn't kind of chap your a**. LOL It's not like anyone did anything wrong, but you still think to yourself, "D*****, I can't believe he charged twice what I did, and he got it! And I did all the work!"
And this is the employer/employee situation. It's not wrong at all, it's just occasionally annoying. LOL
So I meant no hostility towards anyone charging $50 an hour for labor....I was making what I think is an amusing observation on the nature of business.
C'est la vie, eh?
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
[This message has been edited by framer (edited April 04, 2001).]
Frame Harbor
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Lise,
There are many ways to skin it and even more savant ways to name it. I feel comfortable with the following approach.
Say that you are a one man powered framing shop. You wouldn't pay yourself $10/h to do the job and the rest of tasks and responsibilities required by properly running the shop, would you? You'd pay yourself $30-35/h (that mounts to $50/h before taxes) for the multiple tasks and responsibilities involved in conducting that business. When getting help, you are delegating just a portion of your duties, the most visible one, and little if any of your straining responsibilities. If things go bad, or if you choose to "grow small" again, you want to have your worth of labor still available to you, and covered in price, as an incentive to go on. You cannot turn the brut $50/h to your employee for doing less than you were doing for that money, nor can you jeopardize your very existence, in a possible shadowy future, by dropping the price of your framing just because your current marginal labor cost become somewhat smaller. The labor cost is not providing for profits, rent, repairs, shop insurance etc.
I hope that Audrey accepts this business order and will proceed accordingly when, hopefully soon, she'll be in the driver's seat.
[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited April 02, 2001).]
There are many ways to skin it and even more savant ways to name it. I feel comfortable with the following approach.
Say that you are a one man powered framing shop. You wouldn't pay yourself $10/h to do the job and the rest of tasks and responsibilities required by properly running the shop, would you? You'd pay yourself $30-35/h (that mounts to $50/h before taxes) for the multiple tasks and responsibilities involved in conducting that business. When getting help, you are delegating just a portion of your duties, the most visible one, and little if any of your straining responsibilities. If things go bad, or if you choose to "grow small" again, you want to have your worth of labor still available to you, and covered in price, as an incentive to go on. You cannot turn the brut $50/h to your employee for doing less than you were doing for that money, nor can you jeopardize your very existence, in a possible shadowy future, by dropping the price of your framing just because your current marginal labor cost become somewhat smaller. The labor cost is not providing for profits, rent, repairs, shop insurance etc.
I hope that Audrey accepts this business order and will proceed accordingly when, hopefully soon, she'll be in the driver's seat.
[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited April 02, 2001).]
sumik
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
To Jim Miller.Been waiting to see Framechicks response,because I am in the same situation. I work in a small shop too. The boss only occasionally pops in for a few minutes a week. Can't even cut a decent mat let alone cut a frame or assemble one. I have been there 3 3/4 years. Maybe she feels she's entitled to leave the store to me to run, and maybe she is. But I know I will never advance to a manager position with all the benefits of a manager. (Even though she said I would be since she went back to school to become a teacher, the new business cards still have her listed as manager.)I have thought about leaving for a BB store,but then I would have a boss breathing down my neck at every moment. Now I have enough work to keep me busy but not frantic.I can even talk with customers without worrying about getting behind. I am paid fairly for a framer with paid holidays and medical. How could I ask for a raise. I am pretty darn sure they are not making any money. Which leads me to the big worry...will they decide to close the doors one day? They were co- owners of a business next door and one day I came to work and it was gone! Sold it. Cleaned the store out in one night! So...there is a history of here today gone tomorrow. And when the boss gets that teachers degree this fall will I be gone tomorrow too with no notice? Start my own business? Been there,done that. I am doing better now, without all the worries. I think there would be a lot less frameshops (and competion for existing ones)if framers were paid more like the skilled workers that we are and less like minimum wage burger flippers. (let's admit it, starting out framers even with experience don't get much more than a Mcdonalds new hire)I could be waiting tables and making more. But that is NO FUN!!
I guess as the daughter of the owner, I have never really fit in to the label of employer, or employee. So I don't know how to address those subjects.
But this one I do!
We had one employee who was always heard saying, "I'm the only person who works around here." It is a sad syndrome, but a real one. You always see what you accomplish, but it is hard to see what someone else does. We had a large store that had close to 20 employees, (most part-timers) and they all worked in different parts of the store. One ran our receiving room, and was out of sight of most people, therefore, she had "Nothing to do." (Acording to the other workers)
Before anyone can look at a co-worker, or boss, and say that they are the only one who works, think about what they might be doing that you don't see. Our receiving room clerk checked in over 100 boxes every week, (by herself), corrected prices, fixed errors in the computer, and she answered the phone. She also was incharge of informing us of product changes, and new items being set out for display. She had every right to say that she worked hard, but did she do all the work in the store? No, the cashiers are the front line, they deal with the customers in the store, catch her pricing mistakes at the register, take orders from customers. They are the first person who the customers see when that come in the door, and the last person they see when they leave. The stock clerks keep the store clean, and help the customers on the floor. All these people are needed in order to run any store successfully. Whether they are 10 different people, or you wear 10 different hats. Just because the other people around you don't look like they are working, does not mean that they are sitting around earning money for being cute. You just might not see their job.
(I have worked every part of the store, except the boss's. That job I have seen, and don't look forward to. It looks like the hardest job in the store. Part cheerleader, part referee, and part lawyer.)
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Sue May
"You want it when?!?!?"
[This message has been edited by Susan May (edited April 02, 2001).]
But this one I do!
We had one employee who was always heard saying, "I'm the only person who works around here." It is a sad syndrome, but a real one. You always see what you accomplish, but it is hard to see what someone else does. We had a large store that had close to 20 employees, (most part-timers) and they all worked in different parts of the store. One ran our receiving room, and was out of sight of most people, therefore, she had "Nothing to do." (Acording to the other workers)
Before anyone can look at a co-worker, or boss, and say that they are the only one who works, think about what they might be doing that you don't see. Our receiving room clerk checked in over 100 boxes every week, (by herself), corrected prices, fixed errors in the computer, and she answered the phone. She also was incharge of informing us of product changes, and new items being set out for display. She had every right to say that she worked hard, but did she do all the work in the store? No, the cashiers are the front line, they deal with the customers in the store, catch her pricing mistakes at the register, take orders from customers. They are the first person who the customers see when that come in the door, and the last person they see when they leave. The stock clerks keep the store clean, and help the customers on the floor. All these people are needed in order to run any store successfully. Whether they are 10 different people, or you wear 10 different hats. Just because the other people around you don't look like they are working, does not mean that they are sitting around earning money for being cute. You just might not see their job.
(I have worked every part of the store, except the boss's. That job I have seen, and don't look forward to. It looks like the hardest job in the store. Part cheerleader, part referee, and part lawyer.)
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Sue May
"You want it when?!?!?"
[This message has been edited by Susan May (edited April 02, 2001).]
Well said Jim. My hat is off to you for explaining that so articulately. I for one am not comfortable with the label "GREEDY".
We are just trying to make a living by gosh.
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
We are just trying to make a living by gosh.
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
Frame Harbor
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
ArtLady,
Don't feel as if the word "greedy" was purposefully invented and associated with you. Sometimes, we (collective we) look less than understanding or generous to our employees. And they judge us according to their perception.
If this is to any help to you, it happened to me too. Europeans take life much easier than Americans. They "indulge" themselves in mandatory 30 days paid vacation (in August) and work only five days a week. More over, God knows when and how they learned the habit of being rewarded not only for merits but for religious holidays as well. Christmas and Eastern are another 2-5 days of paid vacation opportunities and reason for consistent benefits (one week wage worth at least, more likely a full month salary which is known as the 13-th salary).
As a New Yorker myself, I don't see any of those around here and (out of site, out of mind) I need to be reminded of them. How do you think my unawareness is labeled? Now, feel any better? Come on, let's not take personal offense so easily for we are no longer high school affected gals.
[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited April 02, 2001).]
Don't feel as if the word "greedy" was purposefully invented and associated with you. Sometimes, we (collective we) look less than understanding or generous to our employees. And they judge us according to their perception.
If this is to any help to you, it happened to me too. Europeans take life much easier than Americans. They "indulge" themselves in mandatory 30 days paid vacation (in August) and work only five days a week. More over, God knows when and how they learned the habit of being rewarded not only for merits but for religious holidays as well. Christmas and Eastern are another 2-5 days of paid vacation opportunities and reason for consistent benefits (one week wage worth at least, more likely a full month salary which is known as the 13-th salary).
As a New Yorker myself, I don't see any of those around here and (out of site, out of mind) I need to be reminded of them. How do you think my unawareness is labeled? Now, feel any better? Come on, let's not take personal offense so easily for we are no longer high school affected gals.
[This message has been edited by Frame Harbor (edited April 02, 2001).]
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2000
- Posts
- 17,021
Lise-You asked my opinion of the hourly labor charge ($40, in this case). My take is we don't have it. We charge by the service, not by the time. It reminds me of car repairs and shop charges. A mechanic friend of mine said his shop's flat rate was a godsend. The book called for 1 hour to change a widget, yet he did them all the time in 30 mins.He got paid the full hour and you know the customer got charged the full hour. I've never been comfortable with that type of pricing ever since.
It also promotes the same confusion that Audrey (and others, I'm sure) is experiencing. Her reaction is predictable and we just choose to not open that door. But from an accounting point of view, (I think tha's what you are suggesting) every hour the store is open needs to generate "X" amount of revenue. When something is sold, the gross profit provides that revenue. When service only is sold, you got to call something. We try and provide some tangible product with the charge. In stead of charging an hourly rate to stretch needleart, we charge by size. The larger the item, the larger the price. It's just a safer way for us.
By the way how many people charge the flat hourly rate, and what is or isn't included? Do you also charge a service based fee for stretching or other non-material based services. It isn't a factor for us.
Also how do you determine the rate? It seems to hover in the $40-50 rate. I'm guessing most go along with that, or do you actually figure out the exact amount.
But I think Jim's response mirrors our position accurately, and I'm glad he said it first.
[This message has been edited by Bob Carter (edited April 02, 2001).]
It also promotes the same confusion that Audrey (and others, I'm sure) is experiencing. Her reaction is predictable and we just choose to not open that door. But from an accounting point of view, (I think tha's what you are suggesting) every hour the store is open needs to generate "X" amount of revenue. When something is sold, the gross profit provides that revenue. When service only is sold, you got to call something. We try and provide some tangible product with the charge. In stead of charging an hourly rate to stretch needleart, we charge by size. The larger the item, the larger the price. It's just a safer way for us.
By the way how many people charge the flat hourly rate, and what is or isn't included? Do you also charge a service based fee for stretching or other non-material based services. It isn't a factor for us.
Also how do you determine the rate? It seems to hover in the $40-50 rate. I'm guessing most go along with that, or do you actually figure out the exact amount.
But I think Jim's response mirrors our position accurately, and I'm glad he said it first.
[This message has been edited by Bob Carter (edited April 02, 2001).]
Bob
I do charge by the hour quite often. The hourly rate is $45. I use rate and apply for any repair or restoration work, chopping down/re-joining/hand filling customer frames, mounting of involved shadow box materials, etc.
I determine about how long I feel the job will take (based on past experience) and then allocate that to the order. Almost always I am right on with the time. Sometimes I go over and would never add this to the cust bill.
I charge $45/hour as I found that seems to be industry standard.
---Mike
[This message has been edited by TADPORTER (edited April 02, 2001).]
I do charge by the hour quite often. The hourly rate is $45. I use rate and apply for any repair or restoration work, chopping down/re-joining/hand filling customer frames, mounting of involved shadow box materials, etc.
I determine about how long I feel the job will take (based on past experience) and then allocate that to the order. Almost always I am right on with the time. Sometimes I go over and would never add this to the cust bill.
I charge $45/hour as I found that seems to be industry standard.
---Mike
[This message has been edited by TADPORTER (edited April 02, 2001).]
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2000
- Posts
- 17,021
Mike-Do you mentally calculate the expected time and quote accordingly, or do you time it and then charge accordingly. Also, do you or others post that rate in your store or on your workorders?
Bob
I mentally calculate - always in favor of the customer.
I do not have rates posted. Am I setting myself up for trouble?
---Mike
I mentally calculate - always in favor of the customer.
I do not have rates posted. Am I setting myself up for trouble?
---Mike
Framer Harbor,
I did not take the "Greedy" personally. This was a rhetorical comment related to the perception of those who consider the boss greedy when they do not understand business.
Nothing in this forum do I take personally. No one knows me personally nor my business.
In general I am not fond of negative labels they are very large and a matter of perception of the person who is using the term. Because of the differences in perception they tend to be confrontational.
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
I did not take the "Greedy" personally. This was a rhetorical comment related to the perception of those who consider the boss greedy when they do not understand business.
Nothing in this forum do I take personally. No one knows me personally nor my business.
In general I am not fond of negative labels they are very large and a matter of perception of the person who is using the term. Because of the differences in perception they tend to be confrontational.
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
F
framechick
Guest
A
Audrey
Guest
Jim--
I see you either failed to read, or decided to ignore, my second post in this thread, wherein I laid out exactly how I see "hourly labor charges," and the fact that I DO understand that they have very little to do with what I am worth an hour, and more to do with--but go ahead, read it. I see no point in saying it twice.
Nor did you respond to my example of how I see employer/employee relations; perhaps it clarified my views to the point that your own post was no longer necessary.
From the beginning I have approached this thread on labor charges with humor and a grain of salt; no where did I say that I am worth $40 bucks an hour, and I would appreciate it if you would read ALL of what I said a bit more carefully before prescribing business courses to "help" me.
And no, my views on these things have not "affected" my job, and I find it both arrogant and ill-thought-out of you to decide that my FIRST post was the only one worth responding to, since my second one would undoubtedly invalidate your response to the first one.
I realize that the Grumble is a fabulous place to become a genius overnight, since none of us actually know each other, nor do we see any of these businesses at work, but please try to approach my own posts on this thread with the same humor and goodwill with which I posted them originally.
Again, lighten up.
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
I see you either failed to read, or decided to ignore, my second post in this thread, wherein I laid out exactly how I see "hourly labor charges," and the fact that I DO understand that they have very little to do with what I am worth an hour, and more to do with--but go ahead, read it. I see no point in saying it twice.
Nor did you respond to my example of how I see employer/employee relations; perhaps it clarified my views to the point that your own post was no longer necessary.
From the beginning I have approached this thread on labor charges with humor and a grain of salt; no where did I say that I am worth $40 bucks an hour, and I would appreciate it if you would read ALL of what I said a bit more carefully before prescribing business courses to "help" me.
And no, my views on these things have not "affected" my job, and I find it both arrogant and ill-thought-out of you to decide that my FIRST post was the only one worth responding to, since my second one would undoubtedly invalidate your response to the first one.
I realize that the Grumble is a fabulous place to become a genius overnight, since none of us actually know each other, nor do we see any of these businesses at work, but please try to approach my own posts on this thread with the same humor and goodwill with which I posted them originally.
Again, lighten up.
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
Audrey,
IMHO Jim's response was only to clarify which he did well as always. I guess I too would choose not to respond to issues that might be construed as confrontational.
May I reiterate that sentences starting with
You are...
Why do you always...
You did not...
Labels such as "arrogant"
Criticisms such as "ill-thought out"
and Sarcasm
may be considered confrontational. Could that be what was intended?
Sometimes it is a good idea to share some thoughts by personal email.
Sometimes it is only our perception of an offense that is offensive.
Anyway some may want to consider what truly was the point????????????
Perhaps there are times in a discussion when one can agree to disagree that does not mean someone is less then someone else nor the brunt of labels, remarks or criticism. Disagreeing can be "not agreeing" nothing more nothing less. We are all entitled to an opinion. We are all entitled to agree to disagree. We are all entitled to respect.
Where is my buddy Zorro??
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited April 04, 2001).]
IMHO Jim's response was only to clarify which he did well as always. I guess I too would choose not to respond to issues that might be construed as confrontational.
May I reiterate that sentences starting with
You are...
Why do you always...
You did not...
Labels such as "arrogant"
Criticisms such as "ill-thought out"
and Sarcasm
may be considered confrontational. Could that be what was intended?
Sometimes it is a good idea to share some thoughts by personal email.
Sometimes it is only our perception of an offense that is offensive.
Anyway some may want to consider what truly was the point????????????
Perhaps there are times in a discussion when one can agree to disagree that does not mean someone is less then someone else nor the brunt of labels, remarks or criticism. Disagreeing can be "not agreeing" nothing more nothing less. We are all entitled to an opinion. We are all entitled to agree to disagree. We are all entitled to respect.
Where is my buddy Zorro??
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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
[This message has been edited by ArtLady (edited April 04, 2001).]
M
Marc Lzier
Guest
In the words of a media picked spokesman of our fair city:
"Why can't we all just get along?"
R. King
"Why can't we all just get along?"
R. King
Janet
True Grumbler
Marc,
I was pulling out the keyboard to post the exact reply as yours. We both took the words out of someone else's mouth! LOL
I was always taught that opinions are like a particular part of the anatomy and everybodys got one.
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How cheap do you want it to look??
I was pulling out the keyboard to post the exact reply as yours. We both took the words out of someone else's mouth! LOL
I was always taught that opinions are like a particular part of the anatomy and everybodys got one.
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How cheap do you want it to look??
Frame Harbor
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Janet,
Keep your key board a bit closer. This is the third time I am aware of somebody else saying the very something you wanted to, but one minute faster than you did. Luckily you are not an inventor...in need of priority at the Patent Office
Keep your key board a bit closer. This is the third time I am aware of somebody else saying the very something you wanted to, but one minute faster than you did. Luckily you are not an inventor...in need of priority at the Patent Office
Janet
True Grumbler
FrameHarbor, didn't know anyone out there was keeping score!
I'm always "a day late and a dollar short"!LOL
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How cheap do you want it to look??
I'm always "a day late and a dollar short"!LOL
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How cheap do you want it to look??
Shucks! I thought it was the speed of cable over my isp.
F
framechick
Guest
I thought that people who had followed this thread might have some insight.
Am I over-reacting? I feel a little slighted. I worked for a company for 1-1/2 years, a small company, 2 stores I have managed each of them and thought I had made some positive contributions. I became aware of an available position in a larger company with better benefits and significantly higher pay, applied for it, was offered it and accepted it. I gave my current boss 3-1/2 weeks notice. Since then he has barely uttered a word to me, nothing that isn't related to a specific job. Today was my last day. He didn't come by to say goodbye, or call to say so much as "don't let the door hit you as you leave". I had to drive to the other store after hours to pick up my last paycheck. Just a very impersonal "Exit Interview" form demanding my keys, employee handbook (all 80 pages), and any proprietary information I might have. Oh, and my initials had been removed from the FullCalc order entry menu.
I tried to do the right thing. Had I known I would be treated so shabbily I would only have given 2 weeks notice.
I'm just very disappointed. Or am I being overly sensitive?
2 customers did come in just to say goodbye to me. That was nice.
Am I over-reacting? I feel a little slighted. I worked for a company for 1-1/2 years, a small company, 2 stores I have managed each of them and thought I had made some positive contributions. I became aware of an available position in a larger company with better benefits and significantly higher pay, applied for it, was offered it and accepted it. I gave my current boss 3-1/2 weeks notice. Since then he has barely uttered a word to me, nothing that isn't related to a specific job. Today was my last day. He didn't come by to say goodbye, or call to say so much as "don't let the door hit you as you leave". I had to drive to the other store after hours to pick up my last paycheck. Just a very impersonal "Exit Interview" form demanding my keys, employee handbook (all 80 pages), and any proprietary information I might have. Oh, and my initials had been removed from the FullCalc order entry menu.
I tried to do the right thing. Had I known I would be treated so shabbily I would only have given 2 weeks notice.
I'm just very disappointed. Or am I being overly sensitive?
2 customers did come in just to say goodbye to me. That was nice.
A
alan beitz
Guest
Framechick - don't worry too much , he may not appreciate you till you are gone. As long as you got everything you were entitled to and can leave with your hear held high. All you can do is look forward and not hold a grudge and if you really want to annoy him be so nice if you see him around town that it is positively sickening - main thing , don't hold a grudge - he may need a favour one day . -- Hooroo - Alan
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Old age comes to everyone - Immaturity can last forever
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Old age comes to everyone - Immaturity can last forever
Framechick: You sound like you went the extra mile with your length of notice, and it sounds like you tried to do a good job for him.
I worked for many bosses at the phone co. We had to option of requesting a transfer to any department that had the same 'family of skills'. Sometimes we would find ourselves in a group that only made 40 hrs/week, while other groups were able to work 60 or more.
Sometimes, after years in a group, we would get 'burn-out' and want to try something else. There were various reasons for wanting to change groups, hence, changing bosses. I did so myself probably 10 times during my career.
Out of the 10 times, about 2 bosses actually wished me well, and/or tried to help me move. Most of them acted as yours has. I can see where a boss would hate to lose a really good employee. New man to train, paperwork to fill out, etc. And there's a lot of training and paperwork in an outfit like BellSouth.
Most seemed to take it personally when an employee asked for a move. In 30 yrs, I only knew of maybe 2 cases where a boss refused to move a man. Some would get bitter, thinking you were 'deserting' them, losing sight of the fact that the move netted you a 50% increase in pay, and opportunities for you to increase your overall knowledge, and be a more well-versed employee.
Your boss sounds like he's 'in a bind', losing a conscientious employee who has helped build his business. Plus, he's got to train someone to manage, as you did. Maybe he just doesn't know how to get beyond the fact that you simply got a better deal. Significantly better, so it sounds.
I'd go, knowing that I had done the right thing, for yourself, and for him. The worst of our old bosses, in time, would come around and realize that we didn't mean it as an affront, and would become their old selves.
Good luck with your new job, and don't look back!
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I'm not totally worthless. I can always be used as a bad example...
I worked for many bosses at the phone co. We had to option of requesting a transfer to any department that had the same 'family of skills'. Sometimes we would find ourselves in a group that only made 40 hrs/week, while other groups were able to work 60 or more.
Sometimes, after years in a group, we would get 'burn-out' and want to try something else. There were various reasons for wanting to change groups, hence, changing bosses. I did so myself probably 10 times during my career.
Out of the 10 times, about 2 bosses actually wished me well, and/or tried to help me move. Most of them acted as yours has. I can see where a boss would hate to lose a really good employee. New man to train, paperwork to fill out, etc. And there's a lot of training and paperwork in an outfit like BellSouth.
Most seemed to take it personally when an employee asked for a move. In 30 yrs, I only knew of maybe 2 cases where a boss refused to move a man. Some would get bitter, thinking you were 'deserting' them, losing sight of the fact that the move netted you a 50% increase in pay, and opportunities for you to increase your overall knowledge, and be a more well-versed employee.
Your boss sounds like he's 'in a bind', losing a conscientious employee who has helped build his business. Plus, he's got to train someone to manage, as you did. Maybe he just doesn't know how to get beyond the fact that you simply got a better deal. Significantly better, so it sounds.
I'd go, knowing that I had done the right thing, for yourself, and for him. The worst of our old bosses, in time, would come around and realize that we didn't mean it as an affront, and would become their old selves.
Good luck with your new job, and don't look back!
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I'm not totally worthless. I can always be used as a bad example...
Jean McLean
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Reading all these has brought another small problem to mind. Lets say a customer comes in and buys a 16 x 20 double mat that costs $25. Fine. But, do you factor in the price on top of that the 1/2 hr. it took at the point of sale table helping that customer choose the colors? Now, it's a $50 double mat if you charge $50 an hr. Is there a quick way to solve these time consuming customers who only want mats? I have made a bunch of ready made mats that I offer at a cheaper price but 90% of my customers want me or my employee to help them choose colors, etc. Oh, also...I charge by UI for mats.
cody
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Jean, sometimes I'll bump up the price a little if it appears "they cannot make up their minds". On the other hand, I've had customers pick out framing for 5 or 6 pictures in half hour and they are out the door. I realize not everybody needs the full custom framing bit and it's nice to refresh old mats. Someone wanted us to use their old fillet on a new mat....this was a furniture store picture. Kept arguing with us to please try. The fillet was hot glued to the mat...no can do. She took up ALOT of time and consequently was charged accordingly.
Cody
Cody
po' framer
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Framechick
I must be one of those without insight, I guess, but we all have our crosses to bear.
Your particular one may be a knack for burning bridges and then feeling sorry for yourself afterwards, in my most humble opinion.
I certainly don't wish to make excuses for anyone, but if you want to get treated with a big ceremony when you leave, keep working for big companies. They all have so many people come and go every day so have all that kind of warm and fuzzy admin stuff down pat and big departments which keep themselves busy doing it, like it was really profitable activity.
I was struck by several things while reading your post (sorry, none of them were lightning or heavy objects):
1. Yes, you're over-reacting. Sounds like both of you did what was required and behavior was essentially correct, although perhaps too cool for your tastes. My personal feeling is that you gave too much notice, but that's just my preference, as long departure times tend to get messy. My policy has always been to give a company as much notice as it would give me in return, and you can discover what that is if you keep your antennae out. A pay cycle is usually a good amount of notice; if you were getting paid monthly, then you gave the correct amount of notice, technically.
2. I think you used this shop as a steppingstone to something else you were looking for, which in your case was resume-building for better pay and benefits. Fair enough. In my experience, it takes 18 months before someone is really challenging a given job, and you had at least two during that time, both of which are challenging team-building positions, if you were really the manager. So your boss gave you some juicy work, you gave some positive contributions. Fair trade there.
3. His feelings were obviously hurt and he didn't feel comfortable relating with you after you gave your notice. You either missed or ignored that, neither of which is a good sign for a manager. I'm sure that things didn't improve over time, either, as your feelings were becoming more hurt by his turning away from you. Hurt feelings by both = another fair but this time unsatisfactory trade with lots of unnecessary pain.
4. The exit interview form really sounds like a headed-out-the-door checklist so both parties can remember the proper details. Demanding your keys? Interesting way to word a document: "GIVE ME MY DAMN KEYS BACK!" sort of like that? or should it have said: Do you mind, if it's not too much trouble and not out of your way, producing the keys with which you've been entrusted, and if it's your choice to remove them from your keychain, we have a nice tool here so your fingernails remain intact, and gosh, thanks for being so understanding and forebearing in reply to us asking so crude a request in the first place?"
5. What pages of the employee manual did you wish to keep?
6. Who owns proprietary information?
7. As manager, wouldn't you remove someone from the system who had just had their last day? Actually, what were you doing in the order entry system anyway?
I hope you take this in the right spirit. The whole thing sounds like a wash to me. Both of you used each other for what they could, but you got the better end of it by moving to something you desired. It's too bad that feelings were hurt through it all and I wish both of you well in the future.
I must be one of those without insight, I guess, but we all have our crosses to bear.
Your particular one may be a knack for burning bridges and then feeling sorry for yourself afterwards, in my most humble opinion.
I certainly don't wish to make excuses for anyone, but if you want to get treated with a big ceremony when you leave, keep working for big companies. They all have so many people come and go every day so have all that kind of warm and fuzzy admin stuff down pat and big departments which keep themselves busy doing it, like it was really profitable activity.
I was struck by several things while reading your post (sorry, none of them were lightning or heavy objects):
1. Yes, you're over-reacting. Sounds like both of you did what was required and behavior was essentially correct, although perhaps too cool for your tastes. My personal feeling is that you gave too much notice, but that's just my preference, as long departure times tend to get messy. My policy has always been to give a company as much notice as it would give me in return, and you can discover what that is if you keep your antennae out. A pay cycle is usually a good amount of notice; if you were getting paid monthly, then you gave the correct amount of notice, technically.
2. I think you used this shop as a steppingstone to something else you were looking for, which in your case was resume-building for better pay and benefits. Fair enough. In my experience, it takes 18 months before someone is really challenging a given job, and you had at least two during that time, both of which are challenging team-building positions, if you were really the manager. So your boss gave you some juicy work, you gave some positive contributions. Fair trade there.
3. His feelings were obviously hurt and he didn't feel comfortable relating with you after you gave your notice. You either missed or ignored that, neither of which is a good sign for a manager. I'm sure that things didn't improve over time, either, as your feelings were becoming more hurt by his turning away from you. Hurt feelings by both = another fair but this time unsatisfactory trade with lots of unnecessary pain.
4. The exit interview form really sounds like a headed-out-the-door checklist so both parties can remember the proper details. Demanding your keys? Interesting way to word a document: "GIVE ME MY DAMN KEYS BACK!" sort of like that? or should it have said: Do you mind, if it's not too much trouble and not out of your way, producing the keys with which you've been entrusted, and if it's your choice to remove them from your keychain, we have a nice tool here so your fingernails remain intact, and gosh, thanks for being so understanding and forebearing in reply to us asking so crude a request in the first place?"
5. What pages of the employee manual did you wish to keep?
6. Who owns proprietary information?
7. As manager, wouldn't you remove someone from the system who had just had their last day? Actually, what were you doing in the order entry system anyway?
I hope you take this in the right spirit. The whole thing sounds like a wash to me. Both of you used each other for what they could, but you got the better end of it by moving to something you desired. It's too bad that feelings were hurt through it all and I wish both of you well in the future.
Audrey Levins
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Po' Framer:
I think you're being a bit harsh...LOL...I think she wanted her boss to be generous enough to thank her for a job well-done, since she did all she was required to do, and more. Previous posts of hers have indicated, if I recall correctly, that she felt largely underappreciated in this job; I think she went above and beyond, and it's only natural to expect goodwill. Any employer who thinks that they have hired an employee for life, and to expect lifelong dedication, has forgotten that they were themselves once looking for better opportunities too.
And as far as the 3 1/2 week notice--that's a **** of a lot more than I ever gave. *chuckle* The couple of times I gave two weeks notice, I was usually fired before they were up, by managers who were angry that I had given notice. I finally gave up trying to do the "right thing." I hate looking for new jobs, so the fact that I gave notice meant that I was frustrated beyond belief; I finally realized that employers never give YOU notice when they intend to fire you--they don't care about your bills or helping you find a replacement job--so why should I care when I fire them?
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
I think you're being a bit harsh...LOL...I think she wanted her boss to be generous enough to thank her for a job well-done, since she did all she was required to do, and more. Previous posts of hers have indicated, if I recall correctly, that she felt largely underappreciated in this job; I think she went above and beyond, and it's only natural to expect goodwill. Any employer who thinks that they have hired an employee for life, and to expect lifelong dedication, has forgotten that they were themselves once looking for better opportunities too.
And as far as the 3 1/2 week notice--that's a **** of a lot more than I ever gave. *chuckle* The couple of times I gave two weeks notice, I was usually fired before they were up, by managers who were angry that I had given notice. I finally gave up trying to do the "right thing." I hate looking for new jobs, so the fact that I gave notice meant that I was frustrated beyond belief; I finally realized that employers never give YOU notice when they intend to fire you--they don't care about your bills or helping you find a replacement job--so why should I care when I fire them?
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I don't care what color your sofa is.
F
framer
Guest
I don't know that this qualifies for short notice but I once went to lunch on my first day of work "LAUGHED" and drove down the road again. The owner had handed me a razor blade sharpener when I asked where the mat cutter blades were. I figured if he has that CHEAP I'd never see more than a 10 cent raise.
true story...
framer
true story...
framer