CMC questions - double/triple mats etc.

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Hazany

Hazany

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Posts
288
Loc
Philadelphia
Hello all.
We have been using a Wizard mat cutter to cut most mats. It's difficult to cut 2 or 3 mats and then ATG them together by eyeballing and get a good result. This is especially true if the inner mats are small (1/8"). Using table cutters, we get perfectly even mats (you know - cutting the bottom mat smaller, gluing to top mat and cutting both using the outside edge of the top mat as your guide). Even when we take our time, we still can't get the mats to line up perfectly. Customers make us open and redo the mats. I am tempted to just use the table cutter for double and triple mats. I also don't like how the CMC makes the bevels so big so that a 1/8" mat looks more like 1/16". Any suggestions?
Bruce Hazany
Vision Graphics
Philadelphia
 
what i did was cut the bottom mat first, then attach the next mat to the back along with the fallout. Take out one layer of the underlayment and put the assembled mat back onto the cutting board and cut again for the top mat

Easy peasy, just't like you would cut a mat on a "old" mat cutter
 
I am not sure I understand. First you cut the bottom mat, then you tape the top mat to it and put both in the CMC to cut the top mat?
Thanks.
 
Each board is a slightly different thickness due to the surface paper so you have to align by a visual inspection of the reveal and not use the outer edges. A thicker board has a slightly larger outer size than a thinner board.
 
Hazany said:
Hello all.
We have been using a Wizard mat cutter to cut most mats. It's difficult to cut 2 or 3 mats and then ATG them together by eyeballing and get a good result. This is especially true if the inner mats are small (1/8) Any suggestions?
Bruce Hazany
Vision Graphics
Philadelphia
Click to expand...


What model Wizard do you have?

On my model 8000 this is not a problem at all. On the cut screen you select "Cut layers stacked" You then put your top layer in and cut - without removing you ATG your slightly smaller 2nd mat ( and so on ) to the first and continue cutting. All layers thus cut are perfect in registration.
 
I don't use ATG to join mats and instead use Frank's Fabric adhesive using just a few small dots of glue around the perimer. This allows you to reposition the mats, unlike ATG, and even easily take them apart if they are misalligned or you need to replace one of the mats for some reason.

Glue is also much cheaper than ATG.
 
There are ways to cut multiple-layer mats on most CMCs, but some are easier than others.

For example, on my CMC we cut nearly all of our mats face-up, for as many as three layers per cutting cycle. It is most handy to glue the mat blanks together, place them in the machine, and start the cutting cycle. After cutting the top layer, the machine pauses and instructs to remove the fallouts. When the operator confirms, then the machine proceeds to cut subsequent layers by the same process. Perfect alignment every time.

And if the top mat involves V-grooves, pen lines, or debossing, that operation can be included in the same cycle. When the machine finishes the decorativework, it pauses and asks for a change to the next cutting head.

You mentioned bevel angles. My machine has cutting heads for both 40-degree and 45-degree bevel cuts, so we get to choose. Personally, I prefer the look of 40-degree bevels. For fillets and sometimes for fabric wrapped mats, we may also use one of the 90-degree cutting heads.

After investing the money to acquire a CMC and the time to learn how to operate it, it t seems a shame to revert back to manual cutting, which generally takes more time and cuts with less precision.
 
Dave said:
I don't use ATG to join mats and instead use... just a few small dots of glue around the perimer...Glue is also much cheaper than ATG.
Click to expand...
LIKE.

Your points are well taken and we do the same, except we prefer to use acid-free PVA or Frame Specialties' fabric adhesive. Set up time is about 30 seconds.
 
Same as Dave, I use dots of fabric adhesive to join ... I find the alignment is done more by a sense of touch at the edges rather than by visual appearance, and of course the use of PVA rather than ATG allows for very easy initial adjustment. Additionally the risk of eventual mat creep that can occur with ATG is eliminated.
 
Jim, that sounds like a neat way of doing multiple mats. I don't think it would work on a Wizard, though, because of the way the foot of the cutting head rides against the mat. If I remember correctly from seeing one demonstrated, I think your Valiani is designed so that nothing rides on the mat surface outside the cut line.
:cool: Rick
 
Rick Granick said:
... I think your Valiani is designed so that nothing rides on the mat surface outside the cut line.
Click to expand...
Yes, as you say, the cutting head's roller rides to the inside of the cut. Exception: If we want to cut reverse bevels on any mats below the top layer, then the head runs in the opposite direction and we have to cut those layers separately. But we seldom have to do that.
 
Thanks for all the replies. We have a very old Wizard 5000 (I think). I bought it used and fixed it. It was broken.
It sounds like we need to upgrade. What do you recommend?
One question about not using ATG for connecting mats; Does the fabric glue hold the mats tightly together. For posters, I cannot tolerate gaps between the mats or between the bottom mat and the picture.
Bruce
 
Hazany said:
It sounds like we need to upgrade. What do you recommend?
Click to expand...
I recommend mine, but you can't have it. Fortunately, Valiani has newer models that are probably even better.
:thumbsup:

One question about not using ATG for connecting mats; Does the fabric glue hold the mats tightly together.
Click to expand...
Oh, yes.
ATG tends to fail over time, as unequal expansion/contraction cycles affect the alignment of the mat layers and shred the ATG's bond - even if you are able to apply sufficient impact (pounding) to properly activate the bond between the board layers.

Note that the top mat absorbs heat radiating through the glass. Since paperboard is a pretty good insulator, the mats below the top are not so warmed and do not expand/contract so much. What I call "mat creep" happens as the top mat expands/contracts more radically than the other layers. During those cycles (which might happen one or more times daily, depending on how the ambient light comes and goes) the ATG either flows or its bond breaks on its weakest side of the mat, forcing the top mat to scoot a few ten-thousandths of an inch in the direction of the failed bond.

Multiply that slight movement by a few hundred expansion/contraction cycles, and what started out as a perfectly-aligned 1/4" accent mat margin can easily become 3/16" on one side and 5/16" on the other. A picture I framed in the early 90's hangs in my home, and I have been watching its top mat creep for several years now. It is a secret project, so please don't tell anybody. My wife thinks I misaligned the mats out of youthful inexperience, but no. Those mats were perfectly aligned, originally.

In fact, dots of the cheapest hard-setting glue hold more securely and endure longer than those costly lines of ATG. Just be sure to put the assembled mats under weight for a minute or so, depending on the glue you use. For purely decorative framing, you could use ordinary frame glue. But for preservation framing, I suggect using acrylic gel medium, acid-free PVA, Lascaux 360, or another chemically-stable, inert glue. Most fabric glues are pretty good, chemically, and would be suitable for general purposes.
 
I like to alternate dots of ATG and glue (Cornerweld) for the combination of instant satisfaction and long-term durability.
:cool: Rick
 
Rick Granick said:
I like to alternate dots of ATG and glue (Cornerweld) for the combination of instant satisfaction and long-term durability.
:cool: Rick
Click to expand...

I actually do that also, but didn't want to confuse the issue of the regular question regarding alignment of mats since the OP refered to attaching mat with ATG and Eyeballs. :rolleyes:
 
Hazany said:
It sounds like we need to upgrade. What do you recommend?
Click to expand...
This looks like a really good deal on the newest version of my machine. Valiani is in the process of changing their USA marketing, which probably explains this clearance sale. Tech support remains intact, though, and that is important, especially for new users.
 
Thank you so much for helping me with this issue. I will start using glue for mats. Most of what we frame are photos and posters. Would you use the same glue under the bottom mat to keep it in place? When we use ATG tape, we apply it as close as possible to the bevel. Can that be done with liquid glue? It won't get messy?

As far as CMCs, it seems like Valiani is what everyone likes best? And the other brands aren't suitable for stacking several mats?
Bruce
 
Bruce... purists will say that you should "book" the mat with linen tape along the longest side, but except for the highest preservation jobs I do use small dots of white glue to hold the mat to the backer board. You really don't need to get too close to the bevel because it will lay flat against the artwork when put into the frame against the glazing.

I hate taking apart frame packages that use ATG everywhere. It is such a mess and you rarely can reuse any of the components. With modest use of glue everything can easily be disassembled and you can reuse mats, backers, etc where appropriate.

Word of caution: Never, ever hold a glue bottle over any artwork.
 
I agree it is difficult to take apart a lot of ATG. It's just that most customers think gaps between mats or above the picture are bad framing. Of course with originals, L/E art, etc. this is not an issue.
We do wholesale framing of posters and photos that end up in hospital rooms and such.
 
Hazany said:
Would you use the same glue under the bottom mat to keep it in place?
Click to expand...
For decorative framing, yes. For preservation framing, the proper method is to "book" the mat to the backing board using gummed linen tape on a long edge; either top for landscape orientation or left side for portrait orientation.

When we use ATG tape, we apply it as close as possible to the bevel. Can that be done with liquid glue? It won't get messy?
Click to expand...
I like to apply the glue dots about 1/2" from the mat window, making sure it could not ooze into view. Once securely glued together, the mat layers tend to stay flatter and would not separate or warp unless provoked.

As far as CMCs, it seems like Valiani is what everyone likes best? And the other brands aren't suitable for stacking several mats?
Click to expand...
I chose Valiani, but Wizard is the popular brand among American framers, mostly because they were the first to offer rental and low-initial-cost lease and purchase options. However, all of the makers offer great deals now, so that probably would no longer be a deciding factor.
 
Do any of the wizards do edge to edge straight cutting?
So if you have a 32 x 40 mat you can get 4- 16 x 20's out of it?

I'm looking more towards the Gunnar 601.
I have a customer who wants to do 150 pieces every 2 weeks.
They are all triple mats and I do not want to cut these by hand.
Especially since I only have such a short turnover window.

Thanks
 
Unfortunately no. There are some CMC's that can but I believe they are still up in the $50k range to get that capability. At a couple hundred grand you can keep throwing boards down in different points on the table and it will run non-stop.
 
tfg

Look at the Valiani Vacuum bed range of CMC's
MatPro iXV 150.

These will cut right up to the edge.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
Unfortunately no. There are some CMC's that can but I believe they are still up in the $50k range to get that capability. At a couple hundred grand you can keep throwing boards down in different points on the table and it will run non-stop.
Click to expand...

I use to use the Gunnar 601 for a couple years and it does this.
It's not a vacuum but has the hold down clamps which you can also hide if the straight cut happens to be running through them.

601 is in the $45k range.
 
Vicar,

I have a Wizard 8000 and yes you cut from the back when doing a "stacked mat" . You cut your top mat to size and place in machine and select "stacked mat". You cut the top mat, the head moves out of the way and pauses, you attach you 2nd or 3rd mat by cutting it undersize (I usually cut 1" under both direction) After attaching the second mat you hit continue and it cuts mat 2 (or 3). If you have a Wizard 8000 (or above, I assume) you are able to do this and it should be in your manual.
 
j Paul said:
...(I usually cut 1" under both direction)...
Click to expand...

Couldn't that much of a difference at the edge result in uneven pressure on the package when fitting?
When cutting doubles on my straightline cutter I used to undersize the back mat by 1/8" only; just enough so it didn't become the cutter's reference edge.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
Rick Granick said:
Couldn't that much of a difference at the edge result in uneven pressure on the package when fitting?
When cutting doubles on my straightline cutter I used to undersize the back mat by 1/8" only; just enough so it didn't become the cutter's reference edge.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
Click to expand...

That's about 1/2" all the way around and it takes about that much, more or less to fit under the clamps. The mount board for the art is still at full size, so if you don't fit too tight, I've not found it to be a problem.
 
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