Closed Corner frames from LJ

Baer Charlton

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
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One of our closed corner reps stumbled in this morning....neither of us had enough coffee at 7:30am....and dropped an interesting note.

According to him, Larson is rolling out a Closed Corner Frame program.

Supposedly the district managers are going around holding the hands of the reps with a full blown multi-media dog and pony show.

Lap-tops with power point presentations including classical music and the whole sausage.

Sample set cost $2,000.

Supposedly 4-6 weeks for a "hand-carved" in China, water guilded ....

If it's true, I can't wait to see what a Wing Lu 15th looks like....

Wonder if JoAnn's will buy into the $2K sample sets?

This could be VERY interesting to watch.

Anyone else heard about this? I couldn't get in touch with our LJ rep.... something about him being out on sales calls with the boss...
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I think LaMarche tried the exact same thing and fell on their face.

Oh, sure, I'll be all to happy to support a company who is putting the screws to us.

What a joke!
 
I saw these samples at the show in New York (I remember posting a small tidbit about it after the NY show). They are absolutely beautiful. The company that leafs their Senalar profiles are doing the leafing for these, after they get the moulding from overseas (don't remember where). According to what I was told, they are rolling these out vvveeeerrrryyyyy slowly, as they don't want to fall on their faces with this. I think only about a dozen places are starting with the samples, and they'll see what happens production wise. They have about 5 sets of frames, Louis, Dutch, Spanish, and a couple of others.
 
Heard the same thing Sharon did. Very slow rollout. Didn't see them, but heard they looked good. Have heard different #s for sample costs around the same # you heard Baer.

Will be fun to watch. Would like to see LJ or someone start promoting finished frames to the general public. Would break down a few sales barriers and maybe help me sell a few more of them!
 
I am not takeing sides in this debate .However I do seem to remember a long time ago LJ offered some very intricately cut gold leaf closed corner frames(long before JA ever entered the picture).

The reason I remember is, I didn't carry all the models in the line but what I did ,and do currently ,is carry selected sized models of the Frames and show the catalog for others.

I remeber this offering because there was a very lacey designed Gold leafed frame which a customer wanted dearly for his daughter's wedding Photo. When I told him the line had been discontinued I couldn't show or sell him anything else.

So maybe this will be a return to what LJ did previously.This may be a good thing JA has done for us. Or some of you. $2000 is over my model expenditures.
BUDDY
 
Sharon, you must be special to LJ. I heard they were only showing the line to "selected" customer's in NY. The owners of the shop where I am currently working are in the "partners" program and saw the line. They ordered the line, but I believe they had second thoughts and canceled. They can, and do, sell alot of high-end frames(A-Street, AMCI, Munn, etc.). I think they thought $2,000 was too much to pay when they already have an impressive selection. I agree.

I think anybody even considering this line should look at others before making the commitment. At one time I ordered AMCI's line at 50-50% off. I received well over $2,000 worth of samples for less than $1,000. I wouldn't be surprised if Larson wasn't trying to make a profit selling these samples.

Larson may be doing the closed-corner business a favor, though. Stores that never carried them may start; customer's who never saw them before may start buying them; framer's who carry other lines may see improved business. My experience has been that once you have someone buy a closed-corner frame, they buy more.
 
I agree with Cliff. Should they put some of their advertising dollars behind this will be a benefit to stores that sell CC's.
Now on the flip side of that, how well will other companies that produce them react? I can only guess none to happy if LJ reps start their age old custom of making competitor moulding samples "disappear".
This could be fun.
 
OK,

I hate to sound stupid, but when you say "closed corners" are you talking about ready made frames like JFM makes, only in custom sizes?

:confused:

I know that sample set is out of my budget but I know that JFM will custom make frames in any size. It just takes longer to get them.

Jennifer
 
We were told about 'em. Don't like to spread gossip, but....

I believe they will have very limited distribution - only certain accounts will be "offered" the oppt'y to buy in. Something to separate "us" from "them". I don't remember the $2K cost, though - I thought it was less (could be wrong)

S L O W rollout - Haven't seen them yet but were assured we'd see them soon. Judgement suspended util we see them.

Tony
 
Originally posted by AWG:
...... - only certain accounts will be "offered" the oppt'y to buy in. Something to separate "us" from "them"......
I HATE that about their selling tactic. Like I'm not good enough to buy their better products, because I'm not a partner or don't sell 10K a year of their moulding. I don't get to ride on their trucks because I don't sell enough of their wood, I don't get to be on Net30 because I don't sell enough of their wood. I have to pay the list price, when the rep says I could be paying less, if I rode on their truck.

Won't play that game, won't sell their closed corners, I don't want to price out a frame job with one of their CCFrames only to have Joanne's undercut me by 80%! Why does it feel like a bigger brother holding a "prize" over my head telling me I can have it only if I pay him $5! I didn't buy it then, and I won't buy it now! The prize is never worth it, and then I'd be stuck with $5 worth of ****, or $2K in this case because I bet Joannes isn't paying for the samples.
 
You are not required to purchase the entire line. You can pick and chose samples or purchase separate lines within the whole.

Included is a DVD which would make an excellent presentation for browsing/waiting customers.
 
Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
Well, gee, I think the samples should be free.
Maybe you'll have second thoughts after all, especially now that the undisputed leader of commercial frame industry is
1. Moving up and away from BB's venues
2. Charging for their (for lack of better word) samples.

I did not see LJ's new line. But I've seen enough many people going ecstatic over so poor closed corner lines not to be willing to see it for myself before casting my judgment on this topic.
As to the cost of those samples, I must disagree with Pamela. A handful of quality samples (repros or design frames) are well worth and easily topping 2K. I am not talking cheapos in here. A 5-6" Louis the XV-th corner sample by Munn alone is worth 1000 dollars. Such samples are not easily accessible much less offered in bulk for free.
 
But on the other hand Cornell, a 3" L15th in metal leaf, is closer to $80-90.

I know that if you hand Sterling $2K, in about 3 months you will have the better part of a very nice wall...12-16+ corners.

To go back and answer Jennifer's question, Yes.

A "Closed Corner" frame is one that is made as a whole frame from the raw wood up. In many popular styles Lou's 13th-16th, Mannerist, aurialist, Roccoco, Baroch, Finel, some Russian, and some Dutch, there is an orniment in the corner that covers the joint whether it is a miter, butt, or weave corner.

They are "Closed Corner" because there is no way to take the corner apart and cut down. All Resizeing is done in the body of the rectalinier torso.

I think LJ will quickly find that people already dealing with CC vendors, are VERY picky and faithful. Majorly because CC vendors for the greater part, are small businesses like the framers, and therefore create that kind of bond and report that Corperations tend to not have...

"What is your customer number please?"
 
Originally posted by Baer Charlton:
... because CC vendors for the greater part, are small businesses like the framers, and therefore create that kind of bond and report that Corperations tend to not have...
Baer, you got it absolutely right about the bond and flexible relationship between CC vendors and their clientele. But on the other hand, if quality is good and price unbeatable, which I presume to be LJ's recipe in this endeavor, then resisting temptation is rather hard to hold for too long. By starting slow and offering their new line to a few best situated prospects, LJ looks to me as poised and cautious. No big risks and big mistakes allowed in their book.

In my opinion, it's going to be impossible for LJ to dislodge APF/Munn who had and still has the edge of many vital connections within world's best museums, decades of excellent opportunities to restore, get educated, copy and reproduce accurately a huge collection of period frames. This is a sort of accomplishment and a privilege that simply can't be duplicated in/from China.
I think that second and third class CC frame makers (some of whom are kept in high esteem by grumblers) ought to be extremely agitated and concerned about any Chinese made CC frames competitors, especially if their name is LJ.
 
My LJ rep stopped in this week to tell me about this...said I was one of the two vendors in her territory that would have access to these. She did not elaborate, but if I have to buy an entire set for $2K, it ain't gonna happen. Rarely do I like "an entire set" of something (I was not a favorite target of the prize-in-a-ceral-box companies), so if I can't pick and choose what I want, forget it.

Like Bob, I dislike having to jump through LJ's hoops when I show interest in some of their offerings, be it moulding or marketing products. I'll be curious to see if this "offer to only a select few" business holds true -- when the JoAnn's thing blew up, I raised enough questions to be paid a visit by my rep's regional manager who told me JoAnn's only had access to their Classic Collection, and not their Craig Ponzio line.

Having actually stepped into a JoAnn's, I know that this is untrue.
 
Originally posted by johnny:
What makes you think they are chinese knockoffs?
Something about the box being stamped "Henco en China"....
shrug.gif


More distant drums say design come from distant desert land AKA NM.
shutup.gif
 
Something in the paper this morning about the United States having the greatest trade deficit in it's history, and it is growing at alarming rates. I can not understand how this could be possible, what with hardly anybody purchasing foreign made products.

I think just about every manufacturing job in this country is headed overseas. I expect it will not be long before custom made products, such as regular custom picture framing will be outscorced as well.

I can see it now. The giant production facility in Beijing will be hooked directly into Lifesaver POS. or some such thing. All the clerk at 7-11 or Wall Mart will have to do is type in the information, scan the customers picture, collect the money.

The picture will be reproduced in China and framed, shipped out that same day directly to the customers home or business. The promotion will read something like, "Save your original artwork, by not framing the actual piece. An identical copy will be made for viewing, while your costly original is safely stored away from light and harmful atmosphere."

Think I'm exagerating? Wait a few years. (Or next month.)

John
 
My understanding is that the bulk of the manufacturing will be done in France. They will be finished with real gold leafing in Toronto. They will be signed by the "artist" that finishes them. They will then be distributed through Chicago in their own individual packaging complete with a set of white gloves to handle them with.

If this is untrue I'll be highly irritated, however I have no reason to doubt it. Starting even more rumours about Larson this time with cheap Chinese manufacturing without any cause is irresponsible. If you want to know the manufacturing process just call your rep.
 
Johny,

Why manufacturing in France + shipping to Canada + gilding in Toronto + shipping in the US would be more efficient than doing it entirely in US or Mexico for that mater? Then why would LJ resist what appears to be an irresistible call (China) when:
1. Asia became world's largest and most effective manufacturer
2. US is not tax-protecting domestic manufacturers from foreign competition like Europeans are
3. American consumers are mainly price driven/motivated?

Baer,

Is that "distant desert land", NM, abreviated just like New Mexico is?

[ 04-17-2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Whynot ]
 
'If you want to know the manufacturing process just call your rep."

God knows my rep always tells me the truth.
 
As I learned more about this topic, I must give Johny from OH credit for his info: it appears that LJ's custom made closed corner frames are indeed made in France and finished in Canada, according to a very reliable source of mine. That's funny, because I always thought big houses were making best moves and decisions in the market. ;)
 
This line is far out of my budget .However I did have a visit from My LJ rep and asked how much he could tell me.

He informed me that they were all 24k leaf frames rangeing in price from $30- $100 a wholesale foot. They will have a 5 foot minimum charge,but will be made to any size you desire.

The requirement for participation is that you order and pay for the entire line of samples at $2700.However each time you order a frame of a profile for the firat time you will be given an account credit of eqaul amount but it will not be given for repeat orders of the same profile.

The biggest draw backs are;there willl be a 4-6 wek delivery time ,and My rep says he is only allowed to offer this deal to TWO shops in his area per year.

He says he was told this is to avoid back logs that may be caused if several shops are allowed to order and they all order at the same time. This seems to indicate they expect the out put to be very low and maybe that shipping from one place to another can tie things up even more.

He says he has two shops in mind but if they aren't intersted he will start going down the list.

Don't even worry about me and others like me with a minimum of $150 wholesale for a frame consiting of 5 ft. of mldg. ,I don't have the clientel needed. Not to mention the intial outlay of $2700 for a line I will only sell on rare occaions.Now how may of you are interested?
BUDDY
 
"He says he was told this is to avoid back logs that may be caused if several shops are allowed to order and they all order at the same time."

Ummm is the framing industry really that healthy out there. Sure isn't here. What did I miss?
 
Jay That phrase can be very relative. It depends on the suppliers ability to keep up with the pace as well as it not takeing even longer to receive your order. 4-6 week delivery time is slow enough ,just think if supply couldn't keep up with demand.I don't for a moment suspect even they expect to be inundated with orders but if they receive even one more order than they have ability to produce in a timely fashion it could spell PROBLEMS . Don't you think?
BUDDY
 
Buddy, what you were told is not necessarily true.
"The requirement for participation is that you order and pay for the entire line of samples at $2700"

that implies that you can not but individual samples. But in the price list you can download from LJ they have prices and skew numbers for individual samples
 
Bill I am only repeating what My rep said was a prerequisate for being added to the limited list of participants.

However there being a listing for individual frames isn't surpriseing to me.If you read my post my rep said that as you ORDERED INDIVIDUAL FRAMES you would be credited the cost of the first frame of each profile when you ordered it( but not the second of a given profile until you had ordered each profile available). Ordering and paying for the entire set of samples allowed you to be in the prefered list of TWO clients per district per year.( the OPENING ORDER)
However I am sure you will need to reorder frames on a per basis so there would have to be a list of each profile and their respective cost per footage. Just as I am sure that some replacements of Corner samples may be necessary as time goes on and their would have to be a price list for each ,but you wouldn't/shouldn't need to order an entire set each time you wanted a sample.( accept to open the account)and buying a length to make your own corner sample would also be unfair and it wouldn't look like the CLOSED CORNER sample anyway.

Unless I am just so gulable and undesireable that my rep tried to frighten me away.( which could be true also)LOL But then it has always been my experience that LJ reps frequently make their own deals in different areas.So do what ever your rep agrees to .
BUDDY
 
It's my understanding that this initial offering that is limited to 2 accounts per territory has a buy in of the entire sample set. Later, when the line becomes available to more folks, it will be possible to order individual corners instead of buying the whole line's worth.
 
I forgot to add one more very important note in here: LJ does not allow the slightest alteration from their corner samples' look. What you see is what you get.
From my own experience, being able to adapt frames' shapes, widths, profiles, colors and finishes to your client's very specific needs is a great asset to have and something that one may naturally expect from custom made closed corner frames manufacturers anyway.


Also, interestingly enough, there was not too big fuss over the idea of framers actually paying for corner samples by LJ which, in all honesty, is jut a newcomer in custom made closed corner frames market, one that is yet prone to be making a good number of mistakes and adjustments before having had established its own firm course in there. Not that I'd be advocating for free corner samples, quite the opposite, but that silence reminded me of dad's being always right syndrome.
 
Although it pains me to do this... Cornel has a point...

Originally posted by Whynot:
From my own experience, being able to adapt frames' shapes, widths, profiles, colors and finishes to your client's very specific needs is a great asset to have and something that one may naturally expect from custom made closed corner frames manufacturers anyway.
If it is going to be a truly "Custom" frame, we should be alse to alter it, as needed.
 
The negatives about this are unnecessary and a little silly. After some discussion with management in Paramus I have discovered that the limit on outlets (4 in NY) and full participation requirement is to conduct a test of quality control and the distribution system. Sounds to me that LJ is trying to get it right. I wish I were big enough to participate.

Closed corner frames are an important part of my little one man business as Cornel can testify, Those of you that don't BUY samples and participate in this market are missing an important source of profit. It's your loss. Also the closed corner samples give an important "look" of quality to your premises. LJ's rebate program is as good as it gets in the closed corner business.

I look forward to seeing for myself and judging for myself whether to carry the LJ frame samples when the test program is over. From my experience with them, I suspect my reaction will be positive. After recently paying $130 per frame for crating and shipping on 2 Thanhardt-Burger frames, I look forward being able to get closed corner frames via free truck delivery.

Pat :D :D
 
Pat, you've just touched on a very sensitive topic to me that is delivering large crated custom made frames to my clients. I hear your pain, but you need to know that UPS is getting prohibitively expensive as parcel size goes up and FedEx has a limited size policy.

Recently I learned that DHL is able to cut exceptionally good deals to their best /long time customers. Don't know details as yet, but recently two of my clients saved incredibly big by getting their crated frames be delivered to them by DHL, directly from Romania. They were simply ecstatic over their new deal. Perhaps you too may suggest your suppliers to use DHL rather than other carrier when large parcel/wooden crated frames are to be delivered to you.
 
Pat ,I am by no means in this market .And I am not trying to bash LJ. This is mostly because my limited budget prohibits me from particpateing.I was merely repeating the terms of the entry level for this program as I was told them by My rep and then later by LJ technical support via the phone.

However your comment ,"The negatives about this are unnecessary and a little silly." I certainly hope weren't aimed at my comments. I often am dismayed by the opinion that if we can't meet the terms of a program or if we wished they were more suited to our needs and say so ,than we are being negative and not makeing sense or the old hackned Cliche BASHING.

Isn't it possible to just have a different need or prospective without being negative or bashing the other side of a discussion?I wish every one who is accepted in this program is extremly happy with the product and that the increased demand coupled with the increased production and quality and TAR time decreases the price so that I and a lot more will be able to use this service.I also wish that every service could be enjoyed by even the lower budgeted shops like myself.And to my way od seeing things that doesn't say anything negative about anyone but myself.
BUDDY
 
Buddy,

My comments about negativity are directed at the overall tone of this thread - not at you personally. However, I would ask you to consider my experience with upscale framing. When I opened my business, I took over the location from a very low end framing business and I was given the advice that expensive frames will never sell up here in Sussex County, NJ. In spite of that, I took the advice of a rep who said that if you show good framing and have the samples the customers will find you and you can move to a new place in the market. She was right, much to the surprise of my previous advisers. It's against this experience that I consider negativity about moving upscale as "silly". Upscale framing pays the rent quickly with fairly small volume. I do, however, respect your right to your own evaluation of your community. I don't think that everyone who shares your conclusions about their market have tested the opportunities that are out there.

Pat :D
 
My LJ rep offered me this set for $2000 but didn't mention anything about limiting samples in my area. Of course my shop is in a very large market in California. As a shop that does about 50% closed corner frames I see no point in buying into this line. The samples are nothing new to this market and as of yet you can make NO alterations to the style or finish of any frames. That doesn't seem very custom to me. Finaly the price range of these frames have little to no discount from frame makers such as apf/munn, amci, regence.....

Just don't see the point of buying in to a lesser product. Go with a company that is established in closed corner frames and you will be much happier.

[ 05-03-2005, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: briank ]
 
You echoed what I recently heard from my best East Coast client. How did you like their (LJ closed corner samples) overall finishing touch and sophistication?
Welcome to The Grumble, Brian. In time you'll discover that this place is intermittently frequented by a couple of San Francisco's best framers, just like you are, and at least one of your suppliers. I'm glad to see you here and wish you'll become a permanent contributor.
 
Whynot,
Once I told my rep there was no way I was paying $2000 for samples i didn't need she didn't want to show them to me. I know the person that set up the operation (Marty from Gold Leaf Frame Makers in New Mexico) and have taken gilding courses from him. He is very good at what he does and if he rubbed off on the operation at all they probably will look good. By looking at the images in the catalogue though, the finishes looked a little rough (like they were oil gild insted of water) but was assured that they were all water gilded.

But my assesment still stands. Why go with a old dog trying new tricks when you can go with a company with a pedigree?
 
It seems to me that Larson will be initiating a lot of framers in the ways of carrying closed corners. Once in many will probably flesh out lines with other established vendors, especially if there are greater options such as customability. This is good or bad depending on your view of the situation, but I bet the current closed corner vendors see increased business over time. If you're a long time retailer of closed corner frames I'm sure you're wary about a bunch of other shops waking up to them.

I've been doing this framing gig since I was 16 years old (I'm 37 now). I've never once had a salesman come in and try to show me closed corner frames until Larson told me about them. It's not something I actively persued, although at times I've wished to look into it. For better or worse I will eventually have these to offer and I am becoming more aware of how the market works. Would have happened before now if another company would have come into my store with a sample set first.
 
I too heard long time rumors about Marty's involvement in this. On the other hand, the report I've got on those samples' finish was not enthusiastic at all, which surely does not look to me like Marty's got his mark/part within LJ's closed corner frames program.

As a manufacturer myself, I strongly doubt that carving frames to order in France and finishing them in Canada is what I'd ever do if I had LJ's money to spend on high end custom frame-making. That seams to me such a clumsy business plan (to say the least) that I still can't believe this to be the case for real.

Anyway, in my long experience with this forum, I must admit that most grumblers appeared to be unfamiliar, skeptical or reluctant (hostile at times) to high end framing, and LJ's involvement with good quality frame-making is already changing many framers' views and ideas, as they hold LJ in their highest esteem. For instance, with the exception of one feeble, rather resigned reply, this time nobody took offence or perorated over why paying for (LJ) closed corner frame samples was the stupidest thing ever, like so many times before. And this is quite remarkable.
 
Then must I call myself lucky for getting to always be paid for ALL my samples by ALL my distinguished and respected San Francisco clients, including Etc.?
See, my rule on samples is quite opposed to yours, but then I too allow for an exception to mine; that is 25 K per year clients don't pay for my samples anymore. Munn, who I suspect was building half of your closed corner frames, was not losing a penny on his free sampling a client like you. In fact Munn was never free sampling on buyers’ goodwill and hope to sell his frames, but on proven performance only. His rebate program was clearly spelling his “performance first – freebees later” requirement from every new or smaller than $X/yr. client of his.
Free samples can’t in one case be accepted against heavy, guaranteed performance and then against pure hope to be seen next to Munns, in a prestigious place, and hopefully sold in all the other cases.

Running the risk of aggravating a client, I must say that “I don’t pay for closed corner samples” rule is in fact a covering for blatant double standard business which is gravely hurting all high end framers’ best interest in free competition, improved quality frames, diversity of styles and better overall pricing.
Friendly yours,
CR
 
Brian, some rainy day, do a search on this main forum for "free corner samples."

I promise you many hours of amusing reading.

Also, do a Google search for "waving a red cape in front of a bull."

Hey, look! It's raining!
 
briank

Like you I refuse to pay for corner samples of standard off the rack moulding.

However, closed corner hand made frames are a different animal. I have bought closed corners samples in the past and I will in the future.

One of the threads Ron is talking about no longer exist. It was fun while it lasted.
 
Oh, yeah, I think I might have deleted it in a fit of righteous indignation. There were isolated demands for my resignation as moderator, but things have since settled down.

Those were the good old days.
 
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