Cheating or thrifty?

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Puppyraiser

PFG, Picture Framing God
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I was cutting the mats for a job yesterday. As always, I check the scraps first for a piece big enough. I needed 15 1/2" for an undermat and found one 14". The piece has a 4" mat, so I considered cutting the undermat from the small piece and shimming out the difference. (I carry Crescent mats in stock, so it wasn't a matter of buying another sheet or time or like that...) But I thought, No, the customer paid full pop, and so deserves an unpatched undermat. Now I am thinking, "You fool! It wouldn't have mattered to the structural integrity, and you could have used up scrap instead of generating more scrap." Please act as my Ethicist like on NPR...
 
Remember the days..........when we always under sized the bottom mat.......so we could use the outside edge of the top mat as a guide against the arm of a mat cutter?
 
Jerome, I think we undersized them by 1/4" or so. With the CMC, it's still hard for me to remember NOT to do that when I cut the blanks.

Ellen, I probably would have patched the undermat - you know, to save a tree (albeit, a very small one.) Nowadays, I wouldn't rely on ATG, though. I'd add a bead of Lineco glue to make sure that strip doesn't end up floating around the frame package at some future date.

My MSP (Mat Storage Protocol) only allows me to store one partial sheet of any particular mat number, so I am reluctant to generate a second piece of scrap. Sometimes, though, the effort to splice a bottom mat is greater than any material savings.

We've all opened up a frame package (somebody else's, of course) to find an undermat that's barely larger than the window and there's NOTHING filling the gap between the top mat and the (chipboard) backing.

That's just wrong.

Acronyms have become an occupational curse.

[ 02-05-2005, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
 
Ron...you are correct.........I just thought Ellen wanted some consoling (red eye reading this morning).........I cut all my mats with -0- difference on my CMC even though the Manufacturer suggested the 1/4" or so recess.
 
I don't think you would have been cheating the customer with a shim. They would still have been getting everything they paid for.

BUT, I think your take on the situation was right: When in doubt, decide in favor of the customer.
So, you did the right thing.
 
I would have shimmed it. With a double mat, just about every customer believes that the under mat is exactly the same size as the over mat.

If you size the under mat 1/4” less than the one above it, are you cheating your customer? I don’t think so, so what is the difference if it is 1-1/2” less and you shim it?

Philosophy 101: If they cannot see it, it don’t matter anyhow. – Immanuel Cannot (1804-1724).
 
I personally don't think it is a matter of if they know it or not. On most things, I use the philosophy of "If you're tempted to say 'that's good enough' it probably isn't."

However, in a case like this, it isn't a matter of being "good enough" or not. I ask, "does it honestly affect the integrity of the piece?" If not, then go with it.

When we cut multi-opening mats, often we use several different pieces rather than cutting it all from one piece. How is adding a separate strip any different?

I often use strips to fill space UNLESS the customer is buying a mat only, then I use the 1/4" smaller back sheet.

but on the other hand, why do I do that?
shrug.gif


Betty
 
When my top mat measures larger than 40", but the opening is less than that I don't feel that I am cheating my customer by not limiting the bottom mat selection to only over-sized colors. I feel OK about using the whole spectrum of mat choices and shimming the remaining space with mat board.

As long as what I am doing doesn't affect the artwork and doesn't adversely impact the overall appearance of the framing job I feel good about doing it.

My last test, of course, is if the customer saw this would I be embarassed?! If on a second looking I think that's not professional, then I don't do it. I want people who see my work to see quality work, not quick or good work. I want a frame shop to say "oh it came from the frame works this repair should be straight forward."

When a customer of mine walks in and wants a frame "repaired" I look at the sticker first. I have a mental list of frame shops around here. Certain shops I just take the job and say, this one will be easy, and I give a low price. Other shops I give a higher price estimate because I know as soon as I open the back I am going to be looking at a lot more work than just replacing the glass!

Sorry, long rant! I guess I want to be known as a "quick to fix" frame shop and not a "surprise package" framer!
 
I guess I want to be known as a "quick to fix" frame shop and not a "surprise package" framer!
Click to expand...
And then there's the "no need to fix it 'cause it ain't broke" frame shop.

No offense, Bob. I couldn't help myself. Lots of pent-up sarcasm from a week of being nice on the phone.
 
Originally posted by B. Newman:
I personally don't think it is a matter of if they know it or not. On most things, I use the philosophy of "If you're tempted to say 'that's good enough' it probably isn't."
Click to expand...
This directly affects the quality of the work that leaves a shop... and unless it was an emergency, or a favor - I would probably not piece it together....
 
So, If I choose to use a smaller piece for the undermat, retrieved from a growing collection of
too good "to just get rid of" mat "leftovers". You mentioned 'shimming'. Is this to keep the mat flat???

........the wheels in my head are turning......
 
Once upon a time called "scab mats", the use of piecing and shimming undermats for decorative framing is still acceptable use of scrap material.
I think Ron's implied point that the process of scabbing may exceed the cost of using a whole new sheet is the tipping point and that is totally dependent on how busy you are, and how much your time is worth.
"Time ain't money when all you got is time".

As far as ethics (how you view yourself) are concerned, and Bob's concerns about how other's view you I can't see where there is anything wrong with scabbing a mat as long as it is done correctly so the top mat is supported evenly and the shims won't come loose to go floating about in the frame package. Any procedure can be done either correctly or incorrectly and therein lies the quality of the job.
There are historical and current uses of scabbing that support its use in framing. Both duplex matting and it's contemporary "bevelboards" require a certain amount of piecing together of the components of the undermat to complete the design.
So, Ellen, you can continue to giggle to yourself (and others) should you choose to incorporate scab matting into your regular routine without wondering if there are endless guilt-ridden sleepless nights in your future. (heeheehee)
 
Danny,

You mentioned 'shimming'. Is this to keep the mat flat???
Click to expand...
More or less. If the under mat is significantly less than the top mat, when you fit the frame, the top mat is likely to bow towards the front.
 
Bill Henery's last reply is very similar to one of my caviots about spring clips in metal frames.

But some of the scabbing replies reminded me of a V-GROOVE method I used to see another local framer use that all but convinced me he had a clever method of doing the same on the top mat .This method is also very similar to a technique I described in the "SPLICEING MATS" thread.

this other shop always cut their V-grooves so that they criss-croosed in the 4 corners. This could allow you to cut the window in a smaller mat
blank with an outside bevel and then use scraps to cut equal strips with an opposeing bevel and four small rectangles or squares with bevels on two edges then Tape all the pieces together to look like a wider uniquely V-grooved top mat .If the frame was never taken apart vo one would know the difference.

By the way if this technique is OK for Spliceing and on the top mat at that ,why wouldn't it be OK for this V-groove of a shimmed bottom mat?

Have any of you done a 3D Double beveled or Open V-grooved top mat with an inlaid two colored bottom mat to show different colors at the lip and the V-grroves openning? I have and customers LOVE them .What is the difference?

The answer is if it effects the integrity or appearnace of the finished work "it Matters" If it helps the appearnace and doesn't hurt the integrity It probaly is an Inhancement.(IMHO)
BUDDY
 
I do open v-groove mats all the time. I've even done multi opening mats with different colored inner mats. All of these require separate pieces of mat board on the back - how is that different than adding a strip of matboard in order to utilize a smaller piece of matboard for the inner mat and then to even out the thickness?

The only time I WILL NOT do it is if the inner mat is a VERY small piece, resulting in only an inch or so of the "visible" mat overlapping on the back. I don't feel like that's strong enough to hold well.

Otherwise, I don't see any difference. I don't feel like it compromises the intregity of the matting at all.

Betty
 
Buddy & Betty: I agree with your judgments of the appropriateness of this piecing technique. I also like your open v-groove ideas. It's an effect that I used to use more often but haven't thought about much lately. Back in the 80's I would sometimes color the area shown in the open groove with mat magic powders or shaved pastels to get a "gradient" effect within the groove. It was a neat effect. Nowadays I mostly prefer to do things like bevel extensions covered in marblized papers or faux finishes, where the color and texture is at the bevel and adding depth at the same time. I'll have to brush up my open v-groove skills and experiment with some current materials.
:cool: Rick
 
Boy, I wish I could have read this thread about a month ago when I did a frame that needed oversized matte by 1.5" on a 5" border. Next time I will splice the mat edges. Oversize mat restricted the colours I could use, and increased my outlay to get the frame done.
 
Painting that bevel would have only cost you about 12 cents to paint with acrylic paint...

And they look soooooooo custom. We charge the same as we would for a rag or alpha fillet.

Splicing or scabbing, use what ever term you want, I would only expect it from the minimum wage workers at the BBs because they don't know better or they are lazy....

When the doc does my brain surgury, the sutures needed are 78, do you think I'm gonna know if he only does 61? Maybe and maybe not. but I'd take the guy who regularly does 78-80 unless he thinks it needs more...
 
Baer your annalogy has loss me. I didn't and I don't think anyone else suggested splicing or scabbing to shortchange a client,eventhough they can also be used to utilize what you have on hand in a crunch. What I was discussing was the fact that various splicing or inlaying methods utilize the very same techniques and materials as SCABBING or SHIMMING. Therefore if they are for intents and purposes the same how is one correct and the other wrong ?

When last I checked painting A bevel didn't accomplish the same thing as haveing a different color mat in the open V-grrove as opposed to the lip of the second layer of the mat as is achived with a two toned inlay as the undermat or by painting the area under the open V-groove.
Unless I misunderstood even further the painting of the same second mat to achive the same affect will not be accomplished by merely changeing the color of the BEVEL.

To see an extreme example of SPLICING ( which is the same thecnique as shimming or scabbing)Go to the Design segment of TFg and bring up "Creative Stuff" (http://www.thegrumble.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000014) and take a close look at the Jazz and Heritage pictures. The geometric patterns in the double mated open V-groove is totally accomplished with SPLICING of very small pieces of different colored mats ,all of which are secured in the same method as I have already described. Am I to belive that that mat would have only been done by "minimum wage workers at the BBs because they don't know better or they are lazy...." If so I really must need some lessons in matting and time management.LOL
BUDDY
 
Not to worry Buddy - I think Baer and the Phoneguy are having their own private conversation.

Betty
 
Buddy, Buddy, Buddy, calm down. It's Friday. They Eagles don't lose until Sunday.

I remember that piece. It is a thing of beauty and awe. But it's not what Phoneguy and I are talking about.

He had an oversized mat. Big enough that he also had to use oversized for the second mat, and the cost that was appropriate to that design.
I merely suggested that he simply color the bevel any dang color the client wanted and wasn't available in over-sized matboard..... and charge the same as a second over-sized mat. ie: $48 while only having to spend 12 cents at most for the acrylic paint to paint it, instead of the $28 for another sheet of board that isn't really the color he wanted anyway....

Thanks Betty. I'm now changing my hat to the hard hat with the beer siphons....
 
I was feeling pretty darn good about the gist of this conversation until the word "scab" was brought up. Raised in a union family, the mere word sent off a frisson! But I can get past this... and thanks, everyone for your insights... especially Immanuel Kannot (always good to trot out a genuine philosopher for support)
 
No Ron, I just think it's a good name for a rock band.

Baer, Is confusion your game?
 
Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I guess I want to be known as a "quick to fix" frame shop and not a "surprise package" framer!
Click to expand...
And then there's the "no need to fix it 'cause it ain't broke" frame shop.

No offense, Bob. I couldn't help myself. Lots of pent-up sarcasm from a week of being nice on the phone. </font>[/QUOTE]Ron, late reply, but I was meaning "fix" as in broken glass, customer damaged goods, certainly not due to MY workmanship! BTW I do understand the issue of pent-up sarcasm frustration, that is what I was trying to warn you about suffering from in a different thread!

On a diferent note if you are suffering from pent-up sarcasm frustration, does that make it a disease (dis-ease?) and is it's release therefore covered by insurance? What are the code numbers we need to submit to our insurance? Thanks Ron!
 
In a recent issue of PFM, there was a method explained for cutting double mats with a manual cutter. Since I don't have a CMC yet, I tried it out and they came out really well! This method involves cutting the bottom mat so that it's 1/4" smaller than the top mat all around and centering it on the back of the top mat.

I was not taught to cut mats like this but they are looking better than before. What's the general consensus on this? Would you classify my shop as one of those "difficult" shops if you opened it and saw the mats like this? Does anyone else do this?

Just curious... :D
 
Originally posted by Lisa A:
In a recent issue of PFM, there was a method explained for cutting double mats with a manual cutter. Since I don't have a CMC yet, I tried it out and they came out really well! This method involves cutting the bottom mat so that it's 1/4" smaller than the top mat all around and centering it on the back of the top mat.

I was not taught to cut mats like this but they are looking better than before. What's the general consensus on this? Would you classify my shop as one of those "difficult" shops if you opened it and saw the mats like this? Does anyone else do this?

Just curious... :D
Click to expand...
That is how I cut my multiple mats...And further to my post earlier in this thread...Normally I cut the sub matte 1/4" smaller than the top. So if I had a lot of top matte (is it mat or matte?) to attatch to why not use a piece that is ...say 1 1/4" smaller, as long as a scab piece is used to support the edge so it doesn't buckle. As I don't carry stock (except for missorders, extra flawboard and drop outs)this could potentially save me another trip to the wholesaler, or enable me to use a leftover piece. It would still look good and the strength of the package wouldn't be compromised...I think.
Baer, did you mean to actually paint the 3/16 or 1/4" reveal? Or to paint the bevel?
James
 
James, sometimes both, but usually we will paint the bevel to give that nice little fine line of a complementary color and still be able to stick it, glass and a mount board in one of those infernal 9/32" deep rabits......

It also, and more oftenly allows us to match a color perfectly. Or it can be the counter point color of the mat with a matching french line.

Options, options, options. Something the BBs don't offer.
 
I am sitting here eating my homemade guacamole from the weekend.
Mmmmmm, Mmmmmmm, it's good.
I have a secret recipe for guacamole. AND it's easy. Two avocados, one-half a jar of good salsa, a toss of cumin and at least 3 stalks of celery. Mooszh it all in the food processor and it is yuuuuummy. A chef friend told me about stretching it with the celery. Iceberg lettuce works, too, as well as cooked broccoli stalks.
Here's the thing: The celery stretches the avocados, perhaps waters down the fat slightly and does not hurt it one bit! (In fact it gives it a lighter texture that I prefer.)

And that's what I would say about the pieced bottom mat: I don't see how it hurts and if it helps to be able to get the thing done quicker, then what's the harm?

And perhaps it would help improve the feng shui of the framed piece... perhaps you, as a seasoned professional with sound instincts, subconsciously KNEW that the piece needed a slight bit of yellow vibration, not on the visual level... but there doin' it's thing anyway...

edie the tryintofinetunemyinstincts goddess
 
(Psssst. Edie. When you need a good recipe for homemade salsa, let me know... You do know, of course, "a recipe is merely a suggestion.")

As Jay would say, "Carry on..."

Betty
 
Originally posted by Rozmataz:
...This directly affects the quality of the work that leaves a shop...I would probably not piece it together....
Click to expand...
I look at it this way:
Most of the mats we cut are pieced together from 4 plies of paper. Piecing together the under-mat does not affect the quality of the framing unless (A) the piecing is visible; (B)an invasive or inadequate glue is used to attach the parts; (C) The pieces are ill-fitted or loose; (D) the seam of the pieces rests on the artwork.

Except for these no-nos (have I missed any?), the integrity of the framing would not be affected in any way.

From a preservation standpoint, the quality of the framing would be more surely compromised by a wooden fillet in the mat opening.
Click to expand...
 
Thank you! I think we can all agree now that piecing the undermat, if done properly, is not a violation of our sacred framing trust, and none of us who does it will be visiting satan anytime soon. (At least not because of piecing the undermat!)
Now, lets concentrate on that guacamole! Edie, I like that verb "mooszh".
:cool: Rick
 
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