Charge for samples???

Jay H

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Posts
9,908
Loc
KY
OK as I have posted several times IM in the first days of the start up of my frame shop. I received my tax ID today and started calling potential distributors. I want to at least pick out the ones that I want to deal with now so that I can set up accounts and receive orders very soon after I sign my lease.

On to the question. There is only one (that I know of) distributor around that delivers here weekly. My parents have dealt with them for years. So I called and ordered a catalog. Then she told me that I would need to make the trip up there (about 2 hours away) soon to pick out what moulding samples I want. In my mind I was thinking, "well send them all". She proceeded to tell me that they have this first time buyers program thing where I could give them $100 and they would set me up with their more popular mouldings. If I buy $100 dollars worth of THESE MOULDINGS in 2 months I would get my money back. She said that they have sent out too many samples to people that never ordered from them. Ohh yea that package contains about 150 mouldings. This is about 700 short of what I was planning.

I was thinking about getting a list of the mouldings that they carry and then just ordering the samples from the manufacturer. Do manufacturers send out sample mouldings? If so problem solved, but if not any ideas? The really aggravating thing is that I was going to make the trip there to pick up my first order anyway. It shouldn't be too big just $200 dollars in glass and 5 or 6 hundred in mats!
 
When I started my business 29 years ago, all I had was 32 samples. These were from mouldings I either made myself or finished myself. I could not afford to purchase any samples at all. Within a few years, the suppliers were fighting over my sample wall space, I even thought about renting the space to them.

Don't worry about having to shell out a few extra bucks at this stage of the game, if your any good, they will be begging you to take their samples for free in a few years. Just remember the suppliers who take the best care of you now, when you need it.

John
 
Oh, it's a vicious circle. Or cycle.

Some framers absolutely refuse to pay for frame corner samples. Or mat samples.

But SOMEBODY has to pay for them. And those of us who actually use the product end up paying for the boxes of samples sitting in basements and back rooms. We pay for them with the increased cost of the moulding.

I think you earn free samples, either by establishing a history of purchases with the company or by purchasing the samples under a rebate program.

Personally, I think rebates are a pain, but it's a fair way to distribute samples.

I don't pay for new samples from any of my existing vendors but, if I decided I wanted to sell LeMarche, for example, I wouldn't expect them to send me free samples since I have yet to spend a dime with them.
 
And, no, I don't think manufacturers typcially send out samples directly to framers. You're likely to get more generous allowances from the distributors you actually buy from.

If you're able to actually track down the manufacturers, you might find that most of them are overseas anyway.

Corner samples are just part of the start-up costs, like tools and lighting.

Others will disagree.
 
Pay the $100 for the samples, buy $100 worth of the moulding immediately to frame samples. $100 is really not that much moulding - and you'll probably want samples hanging in your new shop.
 
Free mat a frame samples would be nice, but I've found the prices charged to be reasonable. When I was setting up my shop a few years ago I met with the reps for the two companies I expected would be my primary supplies. We selected a large number of samples and I purchased them. The cost was a couple of dollars per moulding family. I thought this was reasonable, and being a total newbie with limited wall space I appreciated the reps' thoughts on what had been selling well in my area.

I continue to pay what I consider to be a very modest fee for samples. I've been in business long enough that getting a new sample may mean I have to remove a slow seller from the wall to free up space. Sometimes the reps waive the charge (usually no more than a couple of bucks).
 
I opened a year and a half ago and haven't paid for a sample yet. I have on occasion purchased moulding or a sample display so the rep would wave the "sample fee." LJs Water Gilded "Senelar" is an example of when I did this. For "high end" mouldings I understand the need to pay for the sample. As Ron said, someone has to.

But, for the bulk of my mouldings I believe it is their job to provide me with the tools to sell their mouldings. You should be able to find suppliers that will start you off with a sufficient wall display until the fighting starts for your wall space. It will!
 
I have always felt that if a wholesaler/distributor is true to their name then in essence I am selling their goods for them. Without me, none of my customers would buy their stuff. Now I do charge a fair price for my effort to bring their items to the public market but that is none of their concern, just as it is none of mine what they pay their sources. If they start to charge me too much for their goods, it is still my choice to sell for them or not. Prices go too high for me to make a living, down they come or its time to re-negotiate my deal with them. In return they should provide to me all the materials and support I need to sell their goods. The ONLY samples I will pay for are those that I do recognize the labor and effort to make them (i.e. Finished corner, custom finished or ready made.)
 
IM glad its not just me that thinks this a bit much. It’s not that IM cheap or trying to gouge this company. It’s just that I have heard from too many people that they never pay for these things. Ron somebody does have to pay for these. Just as somebody has to pay for the gas you use in a car during a test drive. But that person is never the one thinking about buying the car. Let me just dream

Dealership: Hello sir, what car can I get you in today?

Me: Well my name is Jay and I like that Explorer.

Dealership: That is a beauty. We sell lots of em. Let’s take a closer look at it and I want you to know that we will do anything we can to serve you. We really want all your business starting from right now. Yep customer service is job one here. Ill personally do anything it takes to make you happy with our service and products. We offer this because we sell the best for the best price and I know you will be happy with us.

Me: Great well lets take this baby out for a spin.

Dealership: Sure! We have this “new customer policy” where you can drive this car for 20 minutes for $5.

Me: HUH?

Dealership: Well you see sir we don’t know if you will actually buy the car and we need to cover our costs for gas and wear on the car. But rest assured you will get your $5 back at the close of the deal so your practically getting the test drive free.

Would you inform a potential customer who wants an estimate on custom framing that your hourly rate is $22/hr. and you would need that in advance but they would get that back when they receive their finished job. NO! The only difference is this company already knows that I intend to go pick up a load of mats and glass. I will probably buy close to $1000 in various supplies the first day I step in the door and they want to charge me $100 for 150 samples and then mail you 400 for free. How is this a good idea?

Also yesterday I orders many catalogs. Not one place hesitated to send me one. Several of them will be very expensive to print, and I will likely not order a thing from a few of them. But are they not “investing” their time and MONEY right now for a bigger return later?

John, you rest assured that I will remember the ones that treat me right. Also thanks for the advice about buying the $100 right away. I am going to do that. I have some stuff to hang in my store already but I will need lots more. I have figured in $500 just for framing examples to hang on the walls. That should fill them up pretty well.

Thanks friends!
 
Certainly you can find vendors who will give you all the free sample you want, even before you've purchased a single foot of moulding from them.

Ever think they might be a little desparate to get their mouldings out there?

Any sample, however modest, involves a considerable labor cost for the vendor. They need to cut, join, label, velcro, pack and ship or deliver them. Some of the free samples I received early on were so poorly done that I couldn't show them. So I didn't.

Here are some ideas for how to make your vendor WANT to give you samples:

</font>
  • Limit the number of vendors so you're doing a decent amount of business with each one.</font>
  • When you receive new samples, get them up on the wall quickly. I do this the day I receive them, and then I email my rep to let her know.</font>
  • If you receive samples you really can't use, contact the vendor or your rep and give them a chance to pick them up. Don't just stick 'em in the basement or the dumpster.</font>
  • Sell the mouldings.</font>
 
I do have some free samples sitting in boxes.

Last week I ordered a set of LJ Silhouette. I didn't have them and the customer thinks they are just what she wants for some large canvases going in her new store. My rep said they are being shipped because older samples are not stocked in my local distribution center. Probably will cost me $5. I don't think that covers LJ's cost for packaging and shipping. I'll put them on the wall cause they'll earn the space with this order.
 
Some of the difference might be if you are going to buy length or chop. We picked up new samples from three different companies this past year, they were all free, however we had to pay freight of $9 each on 2 of them. We have over the years received a lot of free samples and paid from $15-$30 a set for new lines.

I'm not sure who is the looser, but if you want to sell their line $100 for 150 + 400 (550)samples and you get it back on your order doesn't sound too bad and they deliver once a week! Times and business practices have changed and we need to change with them.

[ 01-28-2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: JPete ]
 
I guess Ron has described my aggravation in this issue better than I could have myself.

1) With the exception of a few items I can buy in bulk somewhere else, I want to deal exclusively with this company. I don't want to start out with allot of overhead and the weekly deliveries will come in very handy.

2) Right now, counting all the samples I own would equal zero. Every one they give me will go up on my wall. I don’t have the experience to assume that some won't sell and would be hesitant to judge that myself with my limited experience.

3) I have to sell these mouldings. This business isn't a hobby, side-job, or an experiment. It will be my tithe, supper, mortgage payment, lease payment and kids school tuition.

This is why I feel like they are the ones being petty on what the price of moulding samples are. I probably haven't explained this to them well enough, but we will cover that when I place my first order. 150 mouldings at any cost aren’t enough. They carry about 8 different companies.

Actually this insight into the mind of a distributor will help me to better address this with them. This company is exactly the same distance from my house as Williamson Co. If they intend for me to buy from them rather than the factory direct they need to give me a reason. Helping me in this situation would certainly do that.
 
Jay, if they are any good at all, they will be able to pick 150 best sellers for you, which is a much better start than 700 mouldings nobody in your market wants.

That's one of the things a distributor can do for you.

Don't get too hung up on the $100. You'll get that back on your first good order.

Now, what are ya doin' for mat samples?
 
Jay, I've been retail framing for only a few years, but long enough to second Ron's point. Get your distributor to help you pick the best sellers. It might look impressive to have 500 or so samples hanging on the wall, but 150 good sellers will work better for you. Plus, you will have more space to show framed examples of your work.

Most customers don't know the framing lingo, get confused when they have too many choices, and can't "see" different framing/matting when a design is explained to them. Better to have an example to show.

You can always get more samples as your business grows.
 
Before somebody with a good memory mentions this, I'd better point out that I show about 3,000 corner samples.

But, like JRB, I started out with 32 samples - all of them in stock. That must have been the magic number. I think I had about 32 mat samples, too. (Now I show 2,000 and stock 500.)

Start with the 150 and you'll get a feel for what else you need.
 
I guess you had to go asking about the mat samples! Just kidding they did offer those to me.
 
I know I'm beating a dead horse. I do it all the time.

Any distributor will pass on all costs to the customers (you and me.) This includes the cost of corner samples.

We either pay directly for the corners or we pay a little more for the moulding to pay for the corners.

The only one who actually gets the corner samples for FREE is the guy who never actually buys anything from the distributor. This is the person I'm annoyed with, 'cause the rest of us pay for his samples.

Of course, we pass those costs on to OUR customers.

And so it goes . . .

BTW, the same is true for free delivery. It's not really free, but it's subsidized by the customers outside of the delivery area.

I have no problem with that as long as I'm on the delivery route.
 
From my point of view, I think the distributer is giving you a pretty good deal. Face it, you are starting a new business and there is no guarantee that you will be open 6 months from now ( although, I hope that is not the case). Even an order of $1000 is probably not that impressive to a distributer especially if he knows that is an opening order and not a weekly order.

When I opened my shop 7 years ago the framing industry didn't know me from a hole in the wall either. Still, some gave me free samples and some sold them to me for a nominal charge..like shipping, etc. Lamarch gives you coupons to use on future sales that will defray the cost of the samples. Vermont Hardwoods has a similar system. If you go to trade shows there are almost always deals where the samples are free. In other words, the distributers are all different and have different rules. They make these rules because they need to to remain profitable and be fair to all their customers.

The one thing I have found is that the longer I am in business, the more likely I am to get favors.. like free samples..because I am now a known entity. It is also good to keep in mind that if you think of the distributers as the enemy or that you are doing them a big favor by using their product, they will see no reason to go the extra mile for you someday when you really need it.

Good luck with your new business . The next year or so will be the best of times and the worst of times on the retail rollercoaster. I remember my first year as the "year with no paycheck". Try to do better than that.

Sandie in Maine
 
<font size=12></font>
  • Dues</font>
  • Cost of doing Business</font>
  • Estabishing a Relationship</font>
  • Professionalism</font>
</font size>

[ 01-29-2004, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: John Ranes II, CPF, GCF ]
 
Jay might be kidding with his car analogy but I recall when the new Tbird came out--and the Viper now--dealers do ask for a credit card before allowing anyone to drive them. I thought I understood too that some dealers want a down payment on certain cars before they[re driven. But these are the higher end, limited edition Porsches, BMWs, etc.

O and if you object to paying for cornes, don[t even THINK about calling folks like Abe Munn, Rhonda Feinman and other closed corner guysl You will pay for these samples by the foot. But they do sell themselves to a certain clientele
 
IM going to take a stab at that dead horse too!

See the thing about closed corner moulding is that I dont know of anybody who regular gets these for free. That’s is why when I call them I don't expect to get them for free.

I totally understand the concept of the guy that gets samples and never orders a thing. But he is the same as the person who gets estimates and never buys anything. Because you can't shoot those people what are you going to do? Cast doubts or charge everybody that wants an estimate/sample. The people who actually buy framing are the ones who pay for the "free" estimates.

But here is an another question. The distributor told me that I need to get there soon because they often don't samples on hand. They would have to order them and it takes about 2 weeks to get them to me after I have picked them out???

Am I to understand they don’t make them there? Do they get them from the manufacturer? Do they pay for them? I will set up my account with Williamson in a week or so. I will ask them to send me some and I will let you all know what happens.
 
Jay: some manufacturers make samples and some don't, just as some distributors make samples and some don't. When we launch a new line it depends on the manufacturer whether we get samples or get an allowance from the manufacturer on length to make our own. Even if the manufacturer makes samples we usually still have to brand, number, velcro and package the sets. We are a medium size distributor and a typical launch may have 16 profiles of which we need to make 400 sets. This means making 6400 samples using about 6700' of moulding. If the manufacturer makes the samples the distributor still has to pay for them. (And the freight to get them here.) Ron is right, free samples may seem like a good deal, but those costs still have to made up by either building the sample cost into the price or inflating the price of items across the board to absorb these costs. Ron is also right on the money on "free freight", no one can afford to eat the money. It has to be picked up somewhere.

Now I may be wrong but I've worked in alot of different industries and I also shop through catalogs and on line and I think the picture framing industry is about the only one I'm aware of that consistently demands free samples and free freight.

(Sorry had to edit some bad spelling -15 here this morning and can't type yet!)

[ 01-29-2004, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: John Richards ]
 
I think the appeal of "free" delivery on the distributor's trucks is not so much that it's free (since we know it's really not) but that it makes it practical to get uncut length moulding, glass, fome- and matboard, large joined frames and other unwieldy items in one delivery without having to use a common carrier.

In the good-old-days, corner samples - free or otherwise - were sometimes shipped as an 18" stick of moulding. It was the framer's job to cut, join, label and Velcro the samples, and it wasn't a fun job, even for a slow day.

By the way, Jay, when you're getting your new samples, be sure and specify the size and configuration. 6" chevrons are pretty standard now, but some vendors like to cut 7" or 8" samples, and sometimes they're miter-cut. I suppose they think they'll stand out from the crowd, but in my shop, it means they'll hang in the basement or the bathroom.
 
Hmmm moulding in the bathroom? Is this a new business tactic I've never heard about? Just kidding.

Again my only reason for this post is I don't know anybody that has opened a shop recently. A few veterans around here I had talked to have never heard of such a thing. They told me that this practice won't last and I would soon be turning down samples soon enough.

If it’s just the way it is, what are you going to do? I will by my $100 worth of moulding right then and solve the problem anyway. It was just unexpected that’s all.

I do think that isn't enough moulding samples. This is purely a personal hang up and I will take the overwhelming advice of you guys and start with this. Of coarse if they offer me some.........

Do you mean some companies are offering "free delivery"? Sigh! Now I want free delivery too.
;)
 
Jay, I don't hang samples in the bathroom in my current location, since I share that facility with the U.S. Congressman's office down the hall.

In my last location, I had a spacious restroom and the walls were covered with samples that had landed in moulding purgatory. Visiting reps would check my restroom and if most of their samples were in there, they knew they were in trouble.
 
When you contact some other companies, ask what is required before they will send out samples, eg, business license, photo of your shop and then they will know for sure you are real and offer more than expected. Maybe they will be more willing to send some small staight cuts and you can make your own. Good learning experience. I think we made all of our first 50 we had, maybe it was only 32! lol thinking about how far we have come.
 
Jay,

Quantity isn't always the yard stick to measure frame samples with. I carried most all of LJ's and Williamson's moulding lines in my old gallery but I find that interests are much different down here in my new location. I have taken down over one third of LJ's line and most of Williamson't line (they don't have any reps in the Florida area) and have put up selected moulding samples from about 6 new suppliers that are in the Southeast area. I find that many of my new customers like the selections from these new suppliers and, although I don't carry many from each supplier, I pick those lines that I feel will go well with the interests of the residents along the coast.

I was framing to an entirely different clientele kup North and didn't see any reason to keep those samples on the wall that didn't go with the work that I am getting in down here.

I also got tired of the pressure from certain groups to carry ONLY their lines of moulding on my walls. I don't know if this was company policy or simply the rep's attempt to look good but I decided that I would show what is selling and shuck the rest into a box until there is a call for them.

Framerguy

P.S. I was told kyesterday by my LaMarche rep that Williamson has pulled all of their reps and are concentrating on selling by catalog and the internet only. I don't know how accurate this is but it may be worthwhile to question them when you call about your frame samples. Without a rep to present new lines periodically it is more difficult to keep abreast of the new offerings.
 
Just to clarify a few things on freight. I think that if the volume on an order justifys free delivery then that should be the case. This is whether it is on our truck, UPS or cc. What I really was talking about was just general ordering and demanding that the shipment be freight free. We recently ammended our policy on UPS in that a $75.00 order gets free UPS unless it is oversize, then only the oversize fee that is charged. The crazy part is that when we did this in November the oversize charge was $13.00. Now with the UPS rate increase it is structured between $16.00 and $21.00! Yikes!

Another issue is that many distributors purchase 40x60 mat boxes from Crescent for shipping oversize mats. Crescent has discontinued this program. I'm not sure what we paid per carton from Crescent but I know our carton supplier has quoted $4.00! Do I add this on for packaging now?

I'm not sure I want to handle that volume of complaints.
 
Ron. Interesting thread. Over here I cannot get free corner samples. The nearest to 'free' is length at half price. I then cut my own samples and make the rest up into 'Ready Mades'
The point that interest me though is your comment of displaying 3000 corner samples and 2000 mats. Does that not confuse the customer ie Too much choice. The average number of moulding samples on display down here is 200 - 250 and 100-120 mat samples...
What size wall have you got yuour 3000 samples on please..
Or maybe this should be another thread "How many samples do you display". If it hasnt been done before.

[ 01-29-2004, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Merlin Framers ]
 
Interesting questions. Should we make this into a poll?

Mike
 
John, this HAS been discussed before, but that's okay.

I don't think my customers get confused. I control the design process and I don't show them all 3,000. They might see six to begin with, representing a range I think might work.

I don't have large walls, but I have some rotating displays for samples. My main concern is not the quantity, but the fact that they're packed a little tighter in the rows than I'd like. When I visited Jay Goltz's place in Chicago, one of the things that impressed me was the generous space between samples (and large samples, at that.) Mine look pretty crowded.

The key is organization. I can find any frame sample or any mat sample very quickly, and I don't let the customers "help" me put them away.
 
Jay,
Where (may I ask) is this supplier? Do you live in Owensboro? I may be able to answer your question if it's who I think it is.
 
I may have said some things about this company that might be looked at as negitive. I am learning that my complaint may be from ignorance not bad doing on their part.

Im refering to Masters Frame Supply. With the exception of wanting to charge for samples (moulding ONLY) they have been absolutly first class to work with. And yes IM in Owensboro.
 
Jay,
Framer's Supply in Louisville may deliver to Owensboro area too. 502-636-3481, call and ask for Linda, Tell her your situation and tell her I sent you. It may help, they may charge you double.

I'm not totally sure they deliver there, but I can call and find out if you'd like to save a buck on the phone call.

I would think that if your parents have been doing business with Masters for years, then they would consider that, who knows.
 
Jay,
I just talked to Linda, she will call you if you'd like to give me your Name and Phone #.

They do not deliver to Owensboro, but they do deliver to Evansville. If you have a store front they will not charge you for samples.

you can email me privately, or on the Forum if you'd like.

I sell wholesale too but I'd just UPS it. I am a designer and Williamson distributor.
 
Thanks for checking. We are actually closer to Lousiville than Evansville is. Plus we are not far off the path they take to Evansville. I will call them also. We go to Louisville often anyway, maybe I'll just stop by. Thanks again.
 
I completely understand the freight charges my vendors need to charge. I have one vendor that is only 100 miles from my shop and charges me a drop charge on his truck. I have no problem with that, but he charges me more than Speedy. Hence, I have them send Speedy even tho they have a truck coming. We use Speedy whenever possible as UPS has gotten pretty spendy. I quit using a vendor from Colorado however. Their freight has risen to 25 to 30 percent and then they tack on a $5.00 to $10.00 charge for the box to boot. It would have been smarter, in my opinion, for them to add the boxing charge to the price of their mldg. Bendix is great for really cheap moulding and then charging anymore from 25 to 30 percent for freight. Those are things a framer has to take into consideration when purchasing from each individual vendor.
I prefer to use vendors who bring a truck to my area. I know the freight is in the cost of their moulding, but at least I know exactly where I stand for price when I am quoting a job.
 
Like anything else, freight charges are a function of quanity. If you buy 200-300 ft of moulding and it comes common carrier the percentage can be what you state. On the other hand if you are buying 1000-2000 ft or more, the percentage will be closer to 4%-7%.
 
Originally posted by richm:
I have always felt that if a wholesaler/distributor is true to their name then in essence I am selling their goods for them. Without me, none of my customers would buy their stuff. Now I do charge a fair price for my effort to bring their items to the public market but that is none of their concern, just as it is none of mine what they pay their sources. If they start to charge me too much for their goods, it is still my choice to sell for them or not. Prices go too high for me to make a living, down they come or its time to re-negotiate my deal with them. In return they should provide to me all the materials and support I need to sell their goods. The ONLY samples I will pay for are those that I do recognize the labor and effort to make them (i.e. Finished corner, custom finished or ready made.)
Richm,

Sorry, but you are wrong here, for you are not in business to sell different wholesaler/distributors, but to make money for yourself. With this goal in mind, you pick up whichever lines you like and think that you can sell for a profit. You don't do any special service to anybody but to yourself taking in what you can sell or would enhance your trade reputation. When new suppliers give you free samples, they do so not because they owe you selling support (without any warranty that you will ever be able to sell them or even remain in business), but because they are in desperate competition with each other to push same mass-produced stuff, for same price over a saturated market.
Of course, we all need each other, but you don't eat to give business to the grocery store, but because you are hungry; why to pretend then otherwise, right? Free treats, huh?

Ron is quite right. Free samples are just another way of stealing your own hat, a gratuitous, short lived satisfaction. In reality you pay (more) in time, and become maybe less competitive. The only really free corner samples are those that don’t ever sell, but only take up room in your crowded shop; and I suspect that you are not a collector but a businessman, who must not worry over the money he spent on winner corner samples, good tools, effective adds or smart labor. Different lines will sell better/worse than others regardless of their corner samples' initial cost.

[ 02-02-2004, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: American Choice ]
 
Actually I would say that it's BECAUSE I’m a businessman that worry over the money spent on winner corner samples, good tools, effective ads, rent, electric, mats, business cards, and on and on.
 
Yeh, I wanted to imply something else, but obviously it did not work as planed. Of course, you are a businessman and you check on your costs frequently. I wanted to say that if you pay for good samples, tools or labor, this is money well spent, implying that other money may actually be spent with little or no result and that money must be of real concern to you.
But what about Richm thinking of himself as being a deserving selling agent for different wholesaler/distributors who, in return, must support (and pay?) for his service? Maybe he too was a bit inexact in what he was saying... No comment?
;)

[ 02-02-2004, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: American Choice ]
 
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