Changing the image of custom framing

[Beveled]

How can we change our image as an industry?

I'm going to relate 2 experiences here, but if you don't wish to read them, please skip down to the discussion of the subject above.

1. A woman came in, someone whom I knew. She had 2 lovely vintage b&w photographs to frame. We spent a considerable amount of time designing, and I spent a considerable amount of time answering her questions. So when it came to the bottom line, she whipped out a catalog, opened it and posed this question to me.
"I can get very nice, similar frames from PB for $29.95 each. Can you do it for that price? No? I didn't think so. So I will order these, and then bring them back for you to fit. Which color should I order?"
As you can imagine, I was a bit taken back, but kept my composure and did my best to continue to help her out, adding that there was no guarantee of the quality of these items she was about to order. We did fit them for her, (into the PB junky frames, with the color mats and frames that I helped her choose) and she was pleased, and went off with her framed pictures for not a whole lot of money.

2. Today a lady came in looking for fillets. She wanted to know what we had in stock, claiming that she does framing in another state. After showing her our remnants, she picked a rail, and wanted to know what the cost would be, and wanted a "professional discount." We explained that if she wanted to take the rail with her, we could offer her a remnant discount, but if she wanted us to fit it for her, we do not discount our labor. We offered it to her fitted, for $47.00. She went off about knowing how much these things cost, and we are charging 4 times what we should. We didn't even get a chance to price it out the door.

We all have this happen, and it will likely continue. But, in this economy that has people pinching pennies, we have acquired a reputation as a gouging industry, and it couldn't be more false. It seems like we, as a group, could somehow campaign to turn this attitude around. We need to appeal to that huge percentage of persons who have never had anything custom framed. While they may think it is something that they cannot afford, the truth is that those same people spend thousands of dollars on other home decor items that they need or feel is important, and thousands on many other things that are expendable. I'm sure this isn't the first time this topic has made face here, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Puppyraiser]

How can we change our image as an industry?...

...We need to appeal to that huge percentage of persons who have never had anything custom framed. While they may think it is something that they cannot afford, the truth is that those same people spend thousands of dollars on other home decor items that they need or feel is important, and thousands on many other things that are expendable. I'm sure this isn't the first time this topic has made face here, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

We offer a lot of different ways to frame your artwork. I will cut mats for your junk frame and fit it. I will sell you ready mades. I will give you a $500 job on a Christmas puzzle (which we have done) But to those that think they can bully me into doing my work for free (or da*n near) I don't mind wishing you luck in finding more service for less money. When you say that lots of folks think that custom framing is something they cannot afford, they are right. Custom ain't the same as K-Mart.

 

[Beveled]

When you say that lots of folks think that custom framing is something they cannot afford, they are right. Custom ain't the same as K-Mart.

I agree wholeheartedly. But there are people out there who CAN afford it. The lady with the PB frames was drivin a Benz. If you look at what people spend money on, it's clearly a mentality that they can't afford it. Question is, how can we change the mentality?

 

[blackiris]

You can't..... There's always going to be discount framers out there that are going to cut us off at the knees.
BB stores buying stuff from China.... and everywhere else.

You cant tell certain customers all about value and quality...... they dont care. They have a ceiling on what they want to pay. How many times have you said to a customer... I suggest the UV glass...blah blah blah and they say...... OH but its not going to be near a window???...

I had a guy in this past week that wanted a discount on 3 framed jerseys.............. but he can get the hanger and blk shadowbox out of a catalog for $129................ GIVE ME A BREAK....... so I said...... do you want it to look like CRAAAP or do you want it to look awesome?

I will never ever understand why people think they can discount in our industry..... :kaffeetrinker_2:

 

[Jim Miller]

Question is, how can we change the mentality?

That consumer mentality will continue for as long as sellers of framing offer discounts. The craft stores have solidified the consumer perception you describe, but even for a couple of decades before they got into framing, small independent framers advertised discounts as their primary way of attracting customers. Discounts of 15% to 30% have always been available to any consumer who cared to shop around.

But if all framers completely stopped discounting (We can dream, can't we?), consumers would still believe our products and services are overpriced. After all, we may never get John & Mary Doe to understand why a custom frame should cost $100 for a $25 print. Come to think of it, most consumers believe almost everything is overpriced. If you find a way to change that mentality, which is now firmly implanted in our consumer culture, you'll make a fortune as a marketing genius.

 

[cjmst3k]

I don't advertise discounts. I advertise as a competitively priced frame shop, but our look is really nice inside. We do have a framing package for $69 up to 16x20 including frame, matting, glass, fitting, etc. That brings in some people, but I'm careful not to say 90% off or whatever. I just want people to come in and knowing whatever price range they are in, we can find an option that will look good within their price range.

 

[Beveled]

Okay, this may be out in left field, but I was thinking of how certain distributors have employed various new marketing tactics to appeal to consumers, very carefully skirting around the retailers that purchase from them.

If you create a buzz or a new trend, people may take a second look.

And here's a thought. They have enough money to buy IPads, IPhones, Droids, and all the other gadgets that I can't think of the names of. Don't tell me they don't have the money. It's a mentality.

 

[Beveled]

http://www.transtutors.com/homework-help/management/marketing/consumer-behaviour/attitude-change-strategies/

Interesting short article on changing consumer attitudes. But here is the nutshell version:

Attitude changes are learned; they are influenced by personal experience and other sources of information, and personality affects both the receptivity and the speed with which Attitude s are likely to be altered. Altering consumer Attitude s is-a key strategy consideration for most marketers.
For marketers who are fortunate enough to be market leaders and to enjoy a significant amount of customer goodwill and loyalty, the overriding goal is to fortify the existing positive Attitude s of customers so that they will not succumb to competitors' special offers and other inducements designed to win them over. Most competitors; take aim at the market leaders when developing their marketing strategies. Their objective is to change theAttitude s of the market leaders' customers and win them lover. Among the Attitude -change strategies that are available to them are

(1) Changing the consumer's basic motivational function,
(2) Associating the product with an admired group or event,

(3) Resolving two conflicting Attitudes,

(4) Altering components of the Multi attribute model, and
(5) Changing consumer beliefs about competitors’ brands.

 

[Baer Charlton]

Good luck.

By the way..... (and just in case you don't read the magazines
your customers are reading)

Conde Naste is now providing a framing service . . you can buy
(for now) a bunch of their cover and award winning photos,
"exquisitely framed and ready for your walls"

They are reaching out to provide more "travel" related products
for when you aren't, but probably are thinking about . . .

Not to be a downer, but we are the generic - - let us help you
stick your story on your wall.....

iPads, iPhones, droids.... etc are iNeeded and iEntertainment as well
as iPortable. If you try to compete..... you're going to lose.

This is why I have always pounded home the concept.... they don't
bring us a picture and they don't want a frame to nail to the wall.

They bring us their stories, and ask us to help them tell their story - - better.

Be a problem solver and a story teller.

 

[Rick Granick]

That (the attitude article) sounded like a lot of "consultant" gobbledygook. I think we need to focus on assuring the customer that we provide a good value for the fair prices we charge. This means providing quality work, good design, and a friendly, non-threatening retail atmosphere. It also helps to have what has been referred to as "emotional intelligence" in order to be able to effectively deal with a variety of customer types. In our industry this involves trying to educate people as to what is involved beyond just the visible elements, but in a not-too-jargony way, while offering your sincere, experienced opinions about what would best help solve the customer's problem (which is what selling really is). That said, you won't be able to please everyone. Some people operate from a negative or skeptical premise that you won't be able to alter. Let it go. The next person who comes in will think you walk on water.

Rick

P.S. Read all articles you can in PFM by Jared Davis. He gets this.
P.S.S. The Grumble spell-check did not reject the term "not-too-jargony"

 

[Ylva]

Trude,
Changing consumer's attitude is simply not going to happen. We all like a good deal and we all don't always want to spend money on something that is not extremely valuable to us.

For years, we have been looking at outdoor furniture. Sure, we know what we like, but simply are not willing to pay that price. So for now, I bought some cheapo set at the evil wallyworld. 2 tables, 8 chairs, cushions for under $500
It might only last this summer....but the quality is actually quite okay, so maybe it will last a little longer. Now the set we really really would like would cost us over $8000.....no way.

It's the same for framing customers. Sometimes they have something really special and they are willing to spend some money on that. Sometimes 'it just needs to get framed' and it means they are looking at a very low price point.

I agree that people spend money, on a lot of things that might be ridiculous to most of us here. There is money to be spent. But you can't take that beautiful framed item around and show off to your friends....

 

[Prospero]

I wonder if the same people would go into a restaurant with a bunch of ingredients and ask for them to be cooked and served up?

I find a lot of people don't grasp the difference between buying a frame and having a picture framed. You could go buy a new tire for your car, but fitting it is another matter.

It's often the case where fitting something in a 'supplied' frame actually is a lot more work than making a new one. There can be all sorts of snags. The corners may be wonky or the rabbet too shallow. You don't have control over the entire scope of the job.

 

[Framar]

I agree that people spend money, on a lot of things that might be ridiculous to most of us here. There is money to be spent. But you can't take that beautiful framed item around and show off to your friends....

That is the problem we have when trying to "brand" our products. People cannot wear them like watches (who in the world needs a watch costing more than $20 - a $20 Timex tells time the same way a Rolex does!), or clothing (If I buy anything - in the thrift store - with a "brand" name on it I black it out or take the label off of the item), or cart it around and plunk it down on a counter or table like smart phones and purses, or drive it around (a Toyota gets you from point A to point B as successfully as a Lexus).

I have a young customer who just bought an $80,000 car and steadfastly refuses to pay me more than a pittance to frame his signed sports jerseys - he does not care if they are framed properly or handsomely or cleverly - he only cares about throwing them up on the walls of his brand new house.

Heck, we ain't fighting a losing battle - we have lost the danged war.

 

[wendy lang]

That is the problem we have when trying to "brand" our products. People cannot wear them like watches (who in the world needs a watch costing more than $20 - a $20 Timex tells time the same way a Rolex does!), or clothing (If I buy anything - in the thrift store - with a "brand" name on it I black it out or take the label off of the item), or cart it around and plunk it down on a counter or table like smart phones and purses, or drive it around (a Toyota gets you from point A to point B as successfully as a Lexus).

I have a young customer who just bought an $80,000 car and steadfastly refuses to pay me more than a pittance to frame his signed sports jerseys - he does not care if they are framed properly or handsomely or cleverly - he only cares about throwing them up on the walls of his brand new house.

Heck, we ain't fighting a losing battle - we have lost the danged war.

Framar--I disagree! Many of the "well-to-do" think only of the brand name on that watch or the flash of that car, but many, many people with money--and even those who don't have that much--know good taste! We offer good taste. Some one with good taste may drive a beat-up Volvo, because it gets them where they need to go. They understand that a car does not, indeed, "define the man," as the car ads will lead you to believe. They can decern between the "propaganda" and the real deal--the quality stuff.

One of my favorite come-backs to balking customers who say the poster only cost $25 and I want them to pay $125 to frame it? "If the art cost you $2500, instead of $25, you'd be hugging me right now when I say $125 to frame it." OR, if you go to a tailor and ask for a custom suit--that is what we are doing and it's going to cost.

Wendy
The Art Corner
Salem, Ma

 

[Rick Granick]

I agree that people spend money, on a lot of things that might be ridiculous to most of us here. There is money to be spent. But you can't take that beautiful framed item around and show off to your friends....

That is the problem we have when trying to "brand" our products. People cannot wear them like watches (who in the world needs a watch costing more than $20 - a $20 Timex tells time the same way a Rolex does!), or clothing....

These two ideas combine to form our challenge. Conspicuous luxury goods (regardless of their intrinsic quality or lack thereof) are heavily advertised in such a way that their "value" is established in the customer's mind prior to purchase. Every morning in the NY Times I see ads for Chanel bags or shoes with (very high) prices posted right along side the item. Someone who is going to purchase these items has decided before entering the store that this is a good value proposition to them because of perceived status associated with owning and wearing the item. We, on the other hand, must establish our work's value as we design and sell it. This is our challenge.

Ironically, high end frames are often used as iconic images to indicate "classiness" when selling other, unrelated items... so there is value in a quality frame established as part of our culture. The problem is that these days not many people are familiar with the concept of having something custom made especially for them and for specific requirements. Let's face it, even many of the high end luxury goods sold today which in years gone by may have been made by highly skilled artisans in Italy, are now produced in China and elsewhere. Essentially it is mass produced merchandise. Its perceived value comes from the cachet of being associated with haute couture brands. The best we can do is to nurture relationships with our customers, and by association, with their friends and so on, establishing ourselves as the brand of choice for what we produce, and offering an enjoyable experience the result of which is an object of beauty and utility that will provide at least as much pleasure- and likely much more- as that trendy fashion item.

 

[Beveled]

I find myself quite surprised at the abundance of negativism here. But you are all right. If we sit on our butts and say things will never change, they never will.

 

[stcstc]

maybe its the industry that needs to change, rather than change consumer perceptions

i mean look at air travel, used to be reserved for the rich, now everyone jumps on a cheap flight anywhere without thinking


maybe we need to change our business models to suit what consumers WANT to buy

not suggesting we all start knocking out cheap assed frames for 10 bucks. but maybe the norm of 500 bucks frames there isnt a market for

 

[David Waldmann]

I find myself quite surprised at the abundance of negativism here. But you are all right. If we sit on our butts and say things will never change, they never will.

I didn't get any negativity, just reality. Not to say things can't change, but what you're asking for is unrealistic. It's been a rare person/company who has changed the perception/attitude of the world at large. A successful person/company figures out what people want and gives it to them.

As for well-to-do consumers not wanting to spend money on custom framing, you have to realize what it is you're selling. As was said earlier on, used to be almost everything was custom made because there was no other way to get it. Shoes, houses, dinnerware, you name it. Just because someone drives up in a Benz doesn't mean they want to spend "custom" money. Even their top of the line $200k Benz rolled off a production line at 1/10 the price of what a custom made car might cost. Their $20k Rolex, again, cost 1/10 what a custom made one-off watch could cost. (as an aside, most of the Mercedes sold in the US today - the C Class - cost less than the average contractor's pickup)

And in the same way a "beat up Volvo" gets you where you want to go, a China made and assembled ready made will get the picture on the wall just as well as the person wants it to be. Really, how many people have art of enough value to frame it "properly"? I sure don't. Oh, the ready made doesn't have exactly the right proportions, and the mat color is awful? Yeah, well that beat up Volvo struggles to make it up the hill and feels like it's going to shake itself to death over the potholes. Custom framers are a dying breed; if you want to stay one you will have to figure out what part of custom needs to stay that way and find the people that need/want it.

 

[josephforthill]

The world changes, and there are businesses that will become, at best, niche players. I can remember, in my lifetime, when there were several lampshade shops in my home town. You went to one of these (as you would a custom framer) when you wanted something good. When you didn't need quality, you went to the hardware store/discount dept. store.

I think there is now only one lampshade store in my home town (a good size city); but you can buy "decent enough" shades at Lowes and Home Depot. I asked one lighting showroom what has happened, and they told me that there was not enough business left at that end - most people will simply order a new lamp from Pottery Barn, etc. (in addition, some of these places now sell lamps that don't take standard shade fittings, so you just toss and replace entire thing).

Florists are probably unhappy about the floral departments now found in supermarkets, bookstore owners unhappy about Amazon/E-books, etc.

After seeing the demise of so many frame shops (as well as seeing the ones still around down-sizing their spaces), I think you have to be really sharp, really distinctive, in the right area, or combined with other business offerings (or some combination of some/all of the above) in order to make a go of it.

When, as noted above, someone uses a "fancy" frame to signify "classy", it is usually a hotel-style, made in China frame, and certainly not a hand carved and gilded frame. For most people, that is OK, and more importantly, for most people, that is what their friends think is OK.

The horse is already out of the barn on this one, and good luck changing the world.

 

[Jeff Rodier]

Also the example of the luxury auto or watch don't fit in the same category as framing. Actual cost of ownership of those items is part of the decision. Buy a $50,000 Mercedes and use it for 4 years and sell it for $30,000. During that same period you could buy a $20,000 basic auto and hope you get $5,000 on the back end. In the end the Mercedes only cost $5k more. Same goes for high end watches as there is a large aftermarket for them.

There is a very, very, very, very, very small percentage of actual investment artwork in the world. Most custom framing is not a reusable or easily resold item. Framing is the same as someone choosing between a set of $80 decent quality curtains at JCP or paying $2,700 to have them done as custom.

I make ready made frames from some of the highest quality mouldings out there and if I wasn't doing so 90% of my customers would never be able to afford them. 99% of my customers would also never understand why these items have such high retail prices as custom if I didn't explain how the mouldings are made by true craftsmen who may be 2nd or 3rd generation in the art. The majority of my customers would never pay normal mark up on these items because they can find a suitable alternative at 10% of typical pricing of these items.

 

[Bogframe]

There is a reason this industry is called Custom Framing. What we provide is much more than merely moulding, mats, fillets, glass, spacers, etc. We provide a service that takes years to master, constant updating of knowledge, finesse and a hundred other factors. Yes we mark up the raw materials *********** percent. That's business. We have to cover insurance, salaries, rent, replacement cost, equipment and everything else it takes to run a business. When a customer would complain that I was gouging him/her, I'd offer to sell them a stick of moulding, a lite of glass, a sheet of foamboard and a sheet of matboard so they could do it themselves. When, invariably, they would tell me they couldn't do it, I'd smile at them and say "exactly".

 

[Beveled]

maybe its the industry that needs to change, rather than change consumer perceptions

i mean look at air travel, used to be reserved for the rich, now everyone jumps on a cheap flight anywhere without thinking


maybe we need to change our business models to suit what consumers WANT to buy

not suggesting we all start knocking out cheap assed frames for 10 bucks. but maybe the norm of 500 bucks frames there isnt a market for

I think this is a good point, and I thought of Jeff Rodier when I wrote this thread. I just think that we've lost so many framers, and if this is a battle with big box, where is the gumption to fight? Most seem to be resigned to the idea that we are in a dying industry. Maybe we are, and maybe nothing will change that, but seems like we should at least put up a valiant attempt to combat it.

You can call me credulous, but it's how I have survived in this business for 20 years. I carry a positive attitude, and when the chips are down, I search for ways to bring them back up. And really, that's all I was asking here, was a suggestion of ideas, and discussion.

We can all walk away from our businesses eventually, but I'd like to think that before doing that, I fought hard to keep it going.

 

[Jeff Rodier]

This is an excellent time to buy materials for ready made frames. There are bargains out there everywhere and don't settle for problem mouldings and never buy seconds. Making ready made frames can be very efficient if you don't have to cut around garbage in the moulding.

 

[stcstc]

There is a reason this industry is called Custom Framing. What we provide is much more than merely moulding, mats, fillets, glass, spacers, etc. We provide a service that takes years to master, constant updating of knowledge, finesse and a hundred other factors. Yes we mark up the raw materials ********** percent. That's business. We have to cover insurance, salaries, rent, replacement cost, equipment and everything else it takes to run a business. When a customer would complain that I was gouging him/her, I'd offer to sell them a stick of moulding, a lite of glass, a sheet of foamboard and a sheet of matboard so they could do it themselves. When, invariably, they would tell me they couldn't do it, I'd smile at them and say "exactly".

i disagree

there are a lot of framers around who produce stunning work, at sensible prices (ie what the customer wants) who havent actually been doing it that long

as for covering overheads, well the shops that sell cheap ### readymades do too, and generally there in high traffic areas with high overheads, and lots of staff!!

the difference between highish quality readymades and medium priced custom framing (the general stuff not the hand carved one of a kind stuff) isnt that big of a difference

 

[CB Art & Framing]

This is an excellent time to buy materials for ready made frames. There are bargains out there everywhere and don't settle for problem mouldings and never buy seconds. Making ready made frames can be very efficient if you don't have to cut around garbage in the moulding.

So does this help broaden your market appeal?
Do you use the ready made as an incentive to sell matts, glazing etc?
What is a typical ready-made customer? Artist? Busy Mom? DIY?

 

[Baer Charlton]

i disagree

there are a lot of framers around who produce stunning work, at sensible prices (ie what the customer wants) who havent actually been doing it that long

as for covering overheads, well the shops that sell cheap ### readymades do too, and generally there in high traffic areas with high overheads, and lots of staff!!

the difference between highish quality readymades and medium priced custom framing (the general stuff not the hand carved one of a kind stuff) isnt that big of a difference

You are disagreeing with the wrong person Dermot. Bog has been at this long enough to know that "stunning work"
doesn't come from picking up the phone and ordering a chop,
and putting a triple mat behind a sheet of museum glass.

The nuances of "stunning".... truly stunning, comes from years of looking at finished moulding
and knowing that it is a raw pallet, to be "finished".

The race to the bottom feeding is happening on all levels. It is the WalMart-ization of everything. Except cars.

We carry a load of photo frames from "very affordable" to OMG. We stock frames up to 18x24 and save our
customers money that they need to budget elsewhere. When they have something important, they will be
back for the "custom" stuff. Meanwhile we are happy to turn the stock that has a much higher profit range,
and therefore value.

Most custom frame shops walked away from the "distraction" of stock frames years ago. Many of those
shops are long gone. They couldn't save the sale on a wedding photo with a "poster special".

There is a frame shop just outside of Toledo, OH . . . they are in a large shopping center that at times
(and I hope things have gotten better John) looked like a set for Dawn of the Dead. If he had just been
custom framing.... he would have gone the way of the rest of the small shops.

Offering gifts, affordable art, imported important hand craft to save the rainforest, and many other
things have kept him alive and here on the grumble.

Look at the shoe repair guys..... almost dead 20 years ago.... now, they "change your slippery soles for
rain-tread", repair purses, refurbish the backs of high heels where you wear them out on the carpet of
the car driving...... my guy fixes zippers... has an 8' long 6" wide zipper in the window.... (it's how they
used to put Astro-Turf together.)

The days of slapping together a pre-finished moulding, chop a double mat, mount and CC glass.... are
now gone - - - gone to the monkeys doing "stunning work" at Michael's and Hobby World.....
Stunning because its stunning that they call that custom framing.

Sorry for the long post.... but with 45 years in, you hit a hot button.

 

[stcstc]

You are disagreeing with the wrong person Dermot. Bog has been at this long enough to know that "stunning work"
doesn't come from picking up the phone and ordering a chop,
and putting a triple mat behind a sheet of museum glass.

who is dermot firstly, My name is steve crozier

Stunning work doesnt have to come from hard carved work etc, it can come from stunning design!! look at some of the people here who produce stunning work, with those pre finished chops you mention, some of John ranes work for example looks stunning and i bet allof his isnt hand carved and hand finished etc

ok yes the stuff you do is amazing and stunning but there aint many people in the world producing that kind of work

the middle of the road type framer doesnt need 30 or 45 years experience to produce the goods

and thats what the main market is.

I mean if we did a survey of framers and average order level type thing where would the majority be

i would suggest that actually the majority of frame shops are still using pre finished moulding, i would say the hand carved, hand finished, hand gilded etc are the ones in the minority and dying, as the market at the top end is waaaaaaay smaller

 

[Jeff Rodier]

The majority of my ready made frame buyers are artists most of whom belong to local art guilds etc. A large portion of them resell their work so they need to keep costs down. In the past they were using mostly the craft store frames which really make the artwork look as if it is done by a total amateur artist. I also get a lot of regular consumers who have a piece on canvas that go in the ready mades. I package price all of my framing so it is very rare for a customer to use a ready made for a goofy sized piece of art with out of proportion mats.

I sell to a lot of photographers who also resell their work and do printing for them, cut mats or just sell materials including glass. I offer to sell it any way they wish to pay for it. I don't make any basic black ready mades because that just leaves you competing against Wal-Mart and that's a battle you can't win. I have artists and photographers who frame in the style of the artwork rather than the generic framing and it has increased their sales dramatically. I offer many of the most unique frames in the industry since I don't want to have to sell the same junk as the craft stores and then worry about pricing it against their prices.

 

[Warren Tucker]

I'll have to disagree with Baer on some minor points. Here at least the days of selling a custom frame from pre finished moulding, cutting a double mat and regular, float glass are very much still here. We do it every day; it's about 85% of our business. We also don't sell very many ready made frames. We can easily and quickly make a custom frame for what many shops sell ready mades for. We haven't diversified into related lines other that digital imaging (and that's a very small but significant part of our business).

As I've mentioned many times, when Toni and I started 34 years ago we encountered sales resistance and decided to something about it. We looked at every possibility to lower the cost of our product over the way framing was done at that time and there were plenty of ways: avoid chop frames (about 9% of our current sales, buy in large quantities for maximum discount, install labor saving light industrial machines, own our buildings.

While we aren't doing nearly as well as in '07, we still have a thriving, profitable business with value beyond what we could sell the inventory and equipment for. Remember the thread that included an $825 quote for an average size frame that I said we could for well under $200? We don't need to acquaint the public to the joys of custom framing; we need to learn what the public is willing to pay and can afford for custom framing and supply it. It's what I do. The big boxes can't touch us for quality and price. We can offer quality, price and outstanding service, all three. We have a staff of 6 (plus Toni and me) who've been with us from 33 years to 16 years and they are very good at what they do.

It's time for members of our industry to decide what they are in business for: is it to build (and, yes, you can say you built it yourself) a dynamic, thriving business or to provide a low paying job that's subject to the many misfortunes of our economy.

I haven't heard the old line “I'd rather do three high priced jobs than 12 to 15 smaller low cost ones; I'd rather do less work for about the same money” recently, but it was once conventional wisdom here on the Grumble. Me, I'd rather get all the work I can, high or low priced.

 

[PicturedFramer]

I'll have to disagree with Baer on some minor points. Here at least the days of selling a custom frame from pre finished moulding, cutting a double mat and regular, float glass are very much still here. We do it every day; it's about 85% of our business. We also don't sell very many ready made frames. We can easily and quickly make a custom frame for what many shops sell ready mades for. We haven't diversified into related lines other that digital imaging (and that's a very small but significant part of our business).....

While we aren't doing nearly as well as in '07, we still have a thriving, profitable business with value beyond what we could sell the inventory and equipment for. Remember the thread that included an $825 quote for an average size frame that I said we could for well under $200? We don't need to acquaint the public to the joys of custom framing; we need to learn what the public is willing to pay and can afford for custom framing and supply it. It's what I do. The big boxes can't touch us for quality and price. We can offer quality, price and outstanding service, all three. We have a staff of 6 (plus Toni and me) who've been with us from 33 years to 16 years and they are very good at what they do.

It's time for members of our industry to decide what they are in business for: is it to build (and, yes, you can say you built it yourself) a dynamic, thriving business or to provide a low paying job that's subject to the many misfortunes of our economy.

I haven't heard the old line “I'd rather do three high priced jobs than 12 to 15 smaller low cost ones; I'd rather do less work for about the same money” recently, but it was once conventional wisdom here on the Grumble. Me, I'd rather get all the work I can, high or low priced.

I agree with Warren about our industry.
I think the original post was about a customer deceiving the designer and waiting to the very end to spring the ready made online frame. We have all gone through that and are pissed to have been taken advantage of. Get over it! That person is not the only one that will play that trick on all of us, again. This is a business and as long as you have a brain and guts to be an entrepreneur you will be ok. However if you stick your head in the sand and think that nothing will ever change, you'll be gone in a short matter of time. So quit the boo hoo woe is me because success is not your birthright, those who succeed owe their success to effort, having faith in themselves and lots of energy.

 

[stcstc]

I agree with Warren about our industry.
I think the original post was about a customer deceiving the designer and waiting to the very end to spring the ready made online frame. We have all gone through that and are pissed to have been taken advantage of. Get over it! That person is not the only one that will play that trick on all of us, again. This is a business and as long as you have a brain and guts to be an entrepreneur you will be ok. However if you stick your head in the sand and think that nothing will ever change, you'll be gone in a short matter of time. So quit the boo hoo woe is me because success is not your birthright, those who succeed owe their success to effort, having faith in themselves and lots of energy.

amen to that

this is a business, some way to make money, if you happen to enjoy doing it then all the better

BUT its about cash money and nothing else

 

[ArmyFramer]

I get customers like this on a weekly basis. They get the frame through the military supply chain, thinking it will be cheaper to do it this way, then ask us to try and shove everything into it. I don't know how many times I've heard a customer say "It's a lot harder to do then I thought, you make it look easy."

I just do what I have heard on here many a time, educate the customer.

Not sure who said it, but I was once told that 75% of the customers that walk through your door don't know what they want, you have to tell them what they want. Educate them on custom framing. We have the frame breakdown corner sample that Jared (I think) showed us in a class at a Decor show. We show the customer what really goes into a custom frame.

By doing this, we have been lucky enough to see a 5-10% increase in business every year, even when the economy took a dump.

 

[Dave]

...this is a business, some way to make money, if you happen to enjoy doing it then all the better

BUT its about cash money and nothing else

I'll somewhat agree with the first line above but not the second. I doubt there are many individuals here that got into framing as their best option to make the most money.

 

[stcstc]

I'll somewhat agree with the first line above but not the second. I doubt there are many individuals here that got into framing as their best option to make the most money.

most people would have come to it from something connected i would think

i came from photography / printing

maybe i was being a little literal, but the jist is there, its buiness and its about earning money and growing a business

 

[Mike Labbe]

Moderator Alerts Rec'd: 2 posts were modified

I hate to sound like a broken record by saying this over and over in the same week, but.... :icon9:

We politely ask members NOT to post their material/component markup percentages or wholesale costs on this forum.

This is a public and welcoming forum for framers, suppliers, and those getting into the industry. Please assume that the contents of all forums will be indexed by Google/search engines, and post accordingly. (sometimes certain ones are not, depending on the sponsor's wishes, etc. this is subject to change at any time.)

It's good to assume that your customers will be potentially able to see what you have to say, so its best not to talk about costs, markups, or about the customers either

Quoting someone else who did so is just as concerning, too

This has always been a welcoming forum for all, which is why it has had such popularity. If we can refrain from posting this info about specific items, I think it will go far to prevent giving potential customers a false impression about the costs of doing business in this industry. If you want to talk about costs with someone, it's best to take it to PM, email, set up a private member group, or bring it up on a private forum (ppfa, etc).

We modified the two posts in this thread, which listed specific markup percentages. (they are noted accordingly, where they were modified to have this removed)

Thanks for your help to keep those things from appearing on this very public forum.

Mike
Moderator Team Volunteer
Get The Picture, Lincoln, RI

 

[hangupsgallery]

How can we change our image as an industry?

Personally, I don't want to change the image of our industry (or the way it used to be)....an industry which offers a quality product at a fair price. (fair to me & my customer). Nothing wrong with being a little high end and elite. That's the price you pay for "custom".

If anything, our industry's image is already changing with the existence of cheap framing, cut throat pricing, coupons, groupons, discounts, deals, .....where does it end? If your looking for change, let's change it back from whence it came. Stop discounting your talents, and products.

And by the way, it doesn't mean we have to go back to Renascence times and hand carve all our frames. We can use the tools, technology, and materials readily available to produce drop-em-dead designs and state of the art framing.

 

[CB Art & Framing]

How can we change our image as an industry?

I don't think we can. Every industry has the same challenges.
I just had my wife's brakes done. I had a choice of providers.
a. The Dealer.Yes, free coffee & donuts. But at a $700 price tag with only a 50/50 chance of the technician caring.
b. A Local Independent shop, who got rave reviews on Yelp at $300.
c. Go buy the parts and do the work myself say $50.
Well I chose b. and very satisfied with the results.

I learned a quote from Gueirilla Marketing long ago and it has always stuck.
"Promote what your product or service does, not what it is".
So my interpretation in this case is, the customer is looking to solve a problem i.e. getting their photos framed.
It is our job to help them find a solution and the customer will decide what suits their needs best.

Just like with my car repair experience, to the customer all options are a solution.

 

[Beveled]

If anything, our industry's image is already changing with the existence of cheap framing, cut throat pricing, coupons, groupons, discounts, deals, .....where does it end? If your looking for change, let's change it back from whence it came. Stop discounting your talents, and products.

That was my point. Our rep is beginning to be that the good framers gouge, while cheap framing is available out there.

I agree with your comment about discounting, and btw, with exception of wholesale accounts, I don't.

 

[Bogframe]

amen to that

this is a business, some way to make money, if you happen to enjoy doing it then all the better

BUT its about cash money and nothing else

If that's the case, then I'm glad I retired when I did. I enjoyed framing. I enjoyed educating my clientèle and making them comfortable about spending the money they did for a quality product. I enjoyed the gasps of pleasure when I unwrapped a finished piece. I enjoyed their friends and neighbors coming into the shop after seeing my work on their friend's wall. Just a business? Just a way to make money? It wasn't for me. It was a calling and that's what made me as good as I was.

 

[Mark Frame]

Point of Difference

All successful business is about differentiating your products and services from the next guy.
The next guy can be big box retailers, franchises and chain stores or just fellow picture framers.

Every geographical area will already have framing products and services offered of some sort.
So, if what you want to offer is already being offered, you'll need to find another area or go head to head with the competition. I always feel the latter is the least desirable because you are simply trying to steal (yes, I see it as a type of theft) market share off the next guy who has spent (probably) years building up his niche. Note: if an incumbent business is failing their customers in any major way then it's fair that business will suffer the consequence of competition springing up against them.

So the best alternative is to locate a sustainable (economically speaking) niche that you can dominate successfully over the long term where competitors are simply shut out by your dominant offering. In marketing-speak that is simply a way of saying "you need to be different from your competition".

Once you successfully do that, price and petty customers become less important. Your biggest weapon is to educate your local/target customers what it is you do best (i.e. a promise of what to expect from you) and then over-deliver on that promise. That way you produce a "wow" factor that broadcasts from the mouths of your customers, or as it happens today you'll go viral on social media.

 

[Baer Charlton]

amen to that

this is a business, some way to make money, if you happen to enjoy doing it then all the better

BUT its about cash money and nothing else

Go tell a nun that.

If you don't think you're talking about the same people
you don't know enough framers.

It's a calling... if it's a business.... and just about the cold cash.....
when they realized that they could have more take-home at the end of
the week by working at McDonalds serving french fries or Starbucks
pushing caffeine..... they would have been long gone.

Recently a long time friend died; Wayne Woods. He was first a framer,
then ran Neilsen metals on the west coast, then opened Sterling Mldg.
and when his brother died, he took over making the closed corner
frames that John had started.

He went from 30,000 sq ft to 15 to 6,000 and finally 1,000 and his garage.
He shipped his last two closed corner frames on a Tuesday, and died on Thursday.
That, my friend, isn't about the "cold hard cash"..... that is the calling.

I think I'd just rather drop dead in the shop handing over a finished frame job....
man, they would never forget that frame.

 

[stcstc]

If you don't think you're talking about the same people
you don't know enough framers.

It's a calling... if it's a business.... and just about the cold cash.....
when they realized that they could have more take-home at the end of
the week by working at McDonalds serving french fries or Starbucks
pushing caffeine..... they would have been long gone.

well i make a very good living doing it, and i am sure plenty of framers do

yes i know there are people would almost do it for the fun of it

I guess i should of said "For me its a business, its about money, and creating something for both my retirement and my 10 year old son"

i do however count myself very lucky that i get to do for work something i really enjoy

if its not about money then it aint a business. and if it aint about moeny why are there soooooooo many people moaning on here about money and prices etc?