canvas buckling

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KWG

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Hey fellow grumblers!
We have encountered a unique problem with our canvas. We have tried both polly cotton blend and the regular polly canvas. We stretch it the same way we have for the past 20 years. Its not until a day to two days later that buckles begin to form in the canvas. we have tried temperature changes we have tried spritzing the back with water (on the poly cotton blend). we have tested multiple different changes but the result is the same. We have buckles. We dont get buckles on 100% of stretched canvases. For example, none of the hand stretched canvases buckle and only about 80% of those from the stretcher buckle. If anyone else has encountered this problem and solved it I would greatly appreciate some advice on how you solved this little problem. Our canvas supplier is LexJet if that info helps any.

KWG(a.k.a. Jake or Mark)

www.kennethwyatt.com
 
First of all welcome to the Grumble.

When you say "buckle" what are you saying.... Is the canvas wrinkling or making bump as in not smooth. Could you post a photo?
 
First of all welcome to the Grumble.

When you say "buckle" what are you saying.... Is the canvas wrinkling or making bump as in not smooth. Could you post a photo?

The buckle is like a pull. Sometimes it takes the form of a pull from corner to cross corner. It looks like an X across the canvas. Sometimes its like the canvas just gets loose. it makes a "wave" just inside the rabbit. I will try to get a picture to post. I have one on my old phone but unfortunately i didnt upload it. Ill work on getting one to post
 
For what it's worth, when I had customer returns on sagging canvas, it was because I stored the strainer stock in a barn, in the Fall, in humid weather. I chopped and joined it, stretched the canvases, and later in the Winter, when the artworks were drying out in very low humidity in peoples homes, the strainers contracted and the canvas sagged.

Now I store the stock indoors, and wait a couple of days to "season" the assembled strainers before stretching, just like the instructions say for wood flooring. Three days minimum.
 
Are you stretching by hand or with a stretching machine of some sort. Are these "Gallery Wraps"? Are you using keyed stretchers or are you joining stretcher stock?

The answers will help us help you.
 
we store all of our stock in doors. We cut and underpin all of our stretcher bars(guessing thats the same as strainers?) and our frames. we have 2 double mitre saws. One is a 12" and the other is a 14" we also have a cassese underpiner. We stretch anything over 30x40 by hand and everything under that size we stretch on a machine. We do not gallery wrap. We are also located in the texas panhandle where stories of rain are much like fairy tales.
 
And more questions...

what type of strainer/stretcher stock are you using for the 30x40? How wide and how thick?

And are you noticing this problem on all your stretched canvases or only on the large one?
 
actually we arent getting any buckling on the larger canvases. its only those stretched on our machine(some of which are 30x40's) Those stretched by hand are fine. Problem is we deal with enough volume that its not feasible to hand stretch everything. Our larger strainer stock is 2x1,and our smaller stock is 1x1/2. we get all our moulding from Wall Moulding including our strainers.

we are stuggling to figure this out. it has really slowed down production and we are starting to get a bit behind.
 
Is the same person doing it who always has?
 
Yes. The canvas has been stretched the same way on the same machine for years.
 
Is it possible that the machine has an uneven amount of pressure in some parts, or that perhaps the way in which it grips is slipping just a wee bit - maybe something got onto the grip making it slip just a tiny amount? If it has rubber grips replacing those, if steel maybe a major clean or perhaps light sand with sandpaper to remove anything that may have got on there would help...?
 
Is it possible that the machine has an uneven amount of pressure in some parts, or that perhaps the way in which it grips is slipping just a wee bit - maybe something got onto the grip making it slip just a tiny amount? If it has rubber grips replacing those, if steel maybe a major clean or perhaps light sand with sandpaper to remove anything that may have got on there would help...?


My thoughts too. I've never used a machine but I know if I change the amount of tension with my fingers I get the ripples.
 
My thoughts too. I've never used a machine but I know if I change the amount of tension with my fingers I get the ripples.

our problem is that we have one machine with a rubber strip in it. The company that made it no longer exists and we cannot find a replacement strip. The other machine hasnt had much use in the past and is almost as good as new(aside form a little dust) It has no rubber in it. We have had the same thoughts on the tension being uneven. Its the only way to explain why the plier stretched canvases dont buckle. we have also noticed that our strainer/stretcher bars are terribly warped. I have been pulling the bad sticks and setting them aside to send back. Its almost as though the company we get them from doesnt heat treat them properly if at all. also the sticks themselves are finger joined in very close intervals. This used to not be the case. The joins used to be at about 3 foot intervals and now they are erratic. They can be 2 or 3 inches or they can be a foot apart. they tend to warp most consistently at the joints. Im not sure if warped moulding could be the cause of this but we are still testing different theories and are open to any and all suggestions. as long as you dont blame it on gremlins. we have exterminated all gremlins inhabiting the shop.
 
Glad to hear the gremlins are all gone. Have you tried using a different source for you stretcher stock? I'd even go buy a set of stretcher bars and cut them down to make a strainer and see if you still have the problem.
 
Is it digital canvas? This is a classic problem with printed canvases, particularly the lighter weight 7oz (ish). That is why I have promoted mounting these for years rather than stretching. But if the customer is wanting gallery wraps then that is a problem. If mounting is an option use a rigid substrate--like 1/2" Eaglecell honeycomb, Ryno Board, MightyCore or Gatorfoam and strong film adhesive in your dry mount press.
Chris Paschke
 
Do you use cross braces or corner braces? do you glue stretcher bars at corners when joining?
If not, try that.
Are you canvases going in frames/ if so perhaps the frames are fitting too tight.
Also, another cause of buckling can be stapling in the centers of 2 of the sides of a frame, without getting cross tension on the other 2 sides first.
 
For what it is worth I always stretch canvases, particularly "virgin" ones in a two-step process.

I build my stretcher and position the canvas then tension it with staples in the corners and at 1 foot intervals along the sides then set it aside for a day or so.

When I have joined the frame I then complete the stretching and often find that the canvas has lost enough tension that I have to pull all the staples and start again. Once it has behaved itself overnight and I am confident it is fully stretched I finish the job.

I really cannot understand how some framers can boast about "doing that in half an hour":nuts:
 
I would guess it could be lack of humidity. We are finding that in an environment of less than 47% RH the canvases pull even though they are perfectly tight when they leave the store. It can have to do with vents blowing on it etc.; you can't control the environment it goes into. We have brought those canvases back to the shop and within a day the wrinkles pull out in our controlled humidity of 47%. It is frustrating.
 
well we have ruled out the stretcher material. we have gotten enough straight pieces to build our stretchers and the problem still comes and goes. I wish we had time to let canvases sit around for a day or two but we move way too much product to wait for them. We are located in the TX panhandle. That being said. The humidity could be part of our problem. Its been pretty erratic as of late. The temp going from 15 degrees one day to 70 the next prolly doesnt help much either.
 
also our humidity rarely even gets to 47%RH.. thats high for this part of the world
 
.. its only those stretched on our machine(some of which are 30x40's) Those stretched by hand are fine. ..

So when you stretch with the machine, do you staple one entire side at a time?
If so have you tried stretching the short side first. This might help. Because what can happen, is that the staples on the long sides are preventing the canvas from being tensioned when you stretch the short sides.
 
So when you stretch with the machine, do you staple one entire side at a time?
If so have you tried stretching the short side first. This might help. Because what can happen, is that the staples on the long sides are preventing the canvas from being tensioned when you stretch the short sides.

We used to always start with the short side. At the moment we are trying to stretch along the long side. we are also stretching the canvas a lot looser and have noticed that they buckle less. This has been the single most frustrating issue we have ever had. We have tried almost every remedy we can think of and some we have made up and its never consistent. its like the canvas is rebelling
 
we use cross braces on 40x's and up. whether it is a 40x60 or a 40x91. However, we do not have issues with that canvas due to the fact that it is hand stretched. We do not glue our stretcher bars. Mostly due to time constraints. Most of the product we produce leaves within a day of being assembled. We got in contact with our supplier and they promptly helped us with our warped stretcher material. From what I've read on here from all of you helpful people has me thinking that it is the uneven pressure from our machines. I cant think of anything else that could be causing that. Unless its the stretcher material that we were getting that was warped. If you think about it, when wood is "green" it moves and warps. Also, as the moisture leaves, the wood has to shrink to some degree, and if that is the case then that would explain the problem we are having. the canvas becomes saggy and loose. That in combination with the uneven pressure from the machines creates pulls and buckles in the loose canvas. I'm not positive that this is the answer to our problem but its the best rationalization i can come to.
 
Try a few with cross braces, anything larger than 16x20.
My feeling is the machine has more pull, than hand stretching
 
our problem is that we have one machine with a rubber strip in it. The company that made it no longer exists and we cannot find a replacement strip. The other machine hasnt had much use in the past and is almost as good as new(aside form a little dust) It has no rubber in it. We have had the same thoughts on the tension being uneven. Its the only way to explain why the plier stretched canvases dont buckle. we have also noticed that our strainer/stretcher bars are terribly warped. I have been pulling the bad sticks and setting them aside to send back. Its almost as though the company we get them from doesnt heat treat them properly if at all. also the sticks themselves are finger joined in very close intervals. This used to not be the case. The joins used to be at about 3 foot intervals and now they are erratic. They can be 2 or 3 inches or they can be a foot apart. they tend to warp most consistently at the joints. Im not sure if warped moulding could be the cause of this but we are still testing different theories and are open to any and all suggestions. as long as you dont blame it on gremlins. we have exterminated all gremlins inhabiting the shop.
We too are having buckling or occasional sagging problems on Gallery wraps (about 5% of them). Get good stretcher bars to start with, not cheap ones, if you`re getting warped ones send them back to the supplier and get a refund. If they won`t take them get a new supplier. A good supplier will try and take care of their customers, just as you are doing. I don`t think the wood is the issue though in this case of sags. If it was stretched properly at first it ought to stay tight. The explanation that the wood moves is bogus, wood does move, but mainly laterally, not in length. If this was so then wood framed homes would be lifting and dropping all the time. Further the wood should be dry, and If not it will dry in a home environment and this will be less than 1 mm. on a meter. Not enough to cause this sort of problem I think. We use x braces after 24`inches. I like a tight canvas with no movement.
I believe the canvas is the culprit. When I get buckles they show up after about a month, in the customers home(s), so I spritz the back of it, and then put it under a radiant heater for a while, about 16 inches away from the heater. It shrinks and the buckles are gone. Still they can re-appear. A traditional approach is to make a stretcher (with pegs to expand the stretching frame), instead of a strainer-a frame with no adjustable (easiest to make). I cannot afford to do this step. It adds quite a bit of expense to the construction and as a sub contractor to galleries, I have fixed costs per item. My profit slides away to debt.

I`m wondering if the formulation for printing on canvas partially seals one side, then laminating is seals the canvas totally as well. Since the other side is porous it can `grow`and stretch by collecting minute amounts of water from the air. This is the back (inside) of the stretcher and it creeps from that point allowing the canvas to sag. With plywood, you always have odd numbers of veneers, as even ones warp. If we had a more even coating (both sides + the moisture problem I think we`d have less chance for stretch. We cannot afford to make stretchers as our profit margin is very tight, and must stay with strainers.
I need opinions on this as I`m thinking a light spray of fixative on the backside might stop this migration of water. All of our sags have been on what we call decor (good photos- gallery wrapped) with a limited lifetime. I have compared sagging with a competitor of ours and they don`t have sagging. None have appeared on paintings, and these are always mounted on a stretcher.
As for the rubber strip- try going to an industrial belting company, they probably have what you need. I found material for my Gapp stretching machine there.
 
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