Calibrating a mitre saw

[oljohnboy]

hello all,

I have recently purchased a dewalt mitre saw, with a 100 tooth blade from quinn saw, a frameco ezy meazure system, and a "superior" mitre sander. I have been trying to calibrate this stuff for two days with no luck. I have adjusted everything and as far as I can tell, it is perfect, yet I get gaps in 2 of the 4 corners. I need to know what is the best way to get this stuff lined up. I have been using the triangle that came with the mitre sander. Any help would be appreciated!! I do have the measure system calibrated. Is there a more accurate tool, or any tricks?

 

[canada framer]

Actually i used to use one of those at the begining and i did not always get good results...... especialy with poly i had some issues. They are not extremely accurate and i even brought it to dewalt once and still the same problem. When the blade goes up it rubs on the moulding eating up some of the material....try to pull the piece away after the cut and before the blade comes up. For a while now i have been using a Pistorius and thats accurate.
Get yourself a digital bevel mesure and check it because that could be an issue as well.

 

[Richard Darling]

Perhaps others will chime in with better answers and experience, but here is what I would do (and have done).

Start with the sander. Take a straight 1x4, or strip of particle board. Cut a mitre and sand it. Now put it backwards into the other side of your sander. Is the angle exactly the same? If not, try to determine which angle, or if both are off 45. In the end, they should both be the same, and both be 45.

Resist the temptation to make dramatic changes. Make small changes at a time, then make a test frame.

Once your sander is true, which will mean your customer frames will turn out right, then you can mess with the saw. Don't trust the mitre settings. A chop saw is not made for finely tuned picture framing. There's a lot of tolerance in construction framing. Set one side until it matches your mitre sander. Then check the cut on the other side. If it's off, you'll either have to settle for sanding every frame, or filing off the guage a bit at a time until the 2nd side is true.

Buddy may jump in. He tells the story of stripping down a Makita chop saw and rebuilding it to make it right. Fascinating.

 

[David Hewitt]

I also use a DeWalt when cutting 6" or larger mouldings that are to big for the Pistorius. The performance is flawless but not until it was fine tuned. First make sure all is snug and movements are free. Second,have a good and Sharp blade (I prefer Ultra Mitre for wood only) Third , line the base with 180 or 220 grit self adhesive sandpaper (It helps to get a secure grip on the moulding & also allow 1/16 to 1/32 clearance from the blades teeth) As Richard said, start with a 4 or 6" flat stock& cut one side, then lightly mark the edge with pencil, flip the wood & the the saw to the opposite side. Pull the blade down to see if it is a good match. If not, adjust till it doe's. If it will not adjust perfectly, you can purchase 1,5,or 10 thousands shim stock from any auto parts store or machine shop. Once you have the angle set properly you will never have the need of the mitre sanding devise. I have made 14 ft. frames with perfect fits with this inexpensive saw & blade combination.

 

[Prospero]

I don't know this model, but all the small chop saws I have seen don't have the luxury of independantly adjustable fences. That is, the back fence is in one piece. Thay are generally accurate enough for general woodwork but not for picture frames. On the one I have now (I was given it, so can't complain.....), is a cheap DIY piece of kit. (<£100). But it actually makes an acceptable cut. It's just the 45deg angle that lets it down. I notice that tigthening the locking screw when you swing the head actually moves the blade off-angle slightly. I get a more accurate cut if I don't tigthen it. Even then, I have to shave the mitres on the Morso, which somewhat defeats the object.

What I would like to try is a two saw setup. With each saw bolted firmly to a bench and set for a right or left ended cut. Fine tune each saw for a perfect cut by adding shims to the fences if necessary and build a platform to the right with a measuring scale. This way, the heads would never be moved and the angle disturbed. If it worked It would be an inexpensive way of getting a good saw setup.

 

[oljohnboy]

I don't know this model, but all the small chop saws I have seen don't have the luxury of independantly adjustable fences. That is, the back fence is in one piece. Thay are generally accurate enough for general woodwork but not for picture frames. On the one I have now (I was given it, so can't complain.....), is a cheap DIY piece of kit. (<£100). But it actually makes an acceptable cut. It's just the 45deg angle that lets it down. I notice that tigthening the locking screw when you swing the head actually moves the blade off-angle slightly. I get a more accurate cut if I don't tigthen it. Even then, I have to shave the mitres on the Morso, which somewhat defeats the object.

What I would like to try is a two saw setup. With each saw bolted firmly to a bench and set for a right or left ended cut. Fine tune each saw for a perfect cut by adding shims to the fences if necessary and build a platform to the right with a measuring scale. This way, the heads would never be moved and the angle disturbed. If it worked It would be an inexpensive way of getting a good saw setup.

I bought the dewalt dw713. The miter indents are adjustable. They are not machined into the base. I wanted this so that I could calibrate it. I think I need an extremely accurate square. Any suggestions?

 

[artfolio]

I think you are trying to "make do" with a totally inadequate machine.

The weakness with any single bladed drop saw is in the swivelling and locking mechanism. Sooner or later a bit of wear creeps in and lets the blade move slightly as it meets resistance. The cuts may look smooth enough but you will never get close to the accuracy of a double drop saw or a slide mitre saw.

Far better to buy a used guillotine- the old Morsos never die and even an ancient one will cut far better than any but the very best saws.

 

[oljohnboy]

I think you are trying to "make do" with a totally inadequate machine.

The weakness with any single bladed drop saw is in the swivelling and locking mechanism. Sooner or later a bit of wear creeps in and lets the blade move slightly as it meets resistance. The cuts may look smooth enough but you will never get close to the accuracy of a double drop saw or a slide mitre saw.

Far better to buy a used guillotine- the old Morsos never die and even an ancient one will cut far better than any but the very best saws.

Your comment does not help my situation.This is brand new equipment. I bought this, it was in my budget, and it will have to work, and it can, with proper alignment. I bought a high quality saw and I will get high quality results. I am sure there are framers out there that are using miter saws and are making perfect frames.

 

[Dees Dad]

Your comment does not help my situation.This is brand new equipment. I bought this, it was in my budget, and it will have to work, and it can, with proper alignment. I bought a high quality saw and I will get high quality results. I am sure there are framers out there that are using miter saws and are making perfect frames.

I check and adjust my Porter cable saw using a machinists vee-block. It is a rectangular steel block with a perfect vee for centering round stock. Its 90 deg sides are perfect and you can see tilt in the blade easily. Adjust slowly and check each side of the blade, deck and rear fence. I check mine about once a month or if I see an imperfect corner (assuming the stick was not warped).
You can find them at Machinists Supply corp or Grainger.

 

[Prospero]

Your comment does not help my situation.This is brand new equipment. I bought this, it was in my budget, and it will have to work, and it can, with proper alignment. I bought a high quality saw and I will get high quality results. I am sure there are framers out there that are using miter saws and are making perfect frames.

I think you need to ask yourself this: Why would a framer pay $4000+ for a fairly basic single mitre saw when they can get one for $200?

 

[Jim Miller]

My shop has a Phaedra system with twin DeWalt DW705 saws. This setup is entirely adequate and cuts perfect miters every time -- better than the chops we get from most suppliers. The miter sander would fix a slight inaccuracy, anyway.

There is some chance of inaccuracy when you have only one saw and shift it to cut left and right miters. Having two saws in my setup, I don't have to change them for normal use. That said, the better DeWalt saws have a strong and accurate detent, so when you get your saw perfectly adjusted, you should be able to shift it routinely and still cut good miters.

You have not described the nature of the inaccuracy. Are your miters open at the front or back of the corners, or are are they open on the top or bottom of the moulding? Is the inaccuracy of the cuts consistent?

 

[oljohnboy]

I think you need to ask yourself this: Why would a framer pay $4000+ for a fairly basic single mitre saw when they can get one for $200?

ask yourself this:

why would you post stuff like this to my thread instead of posting suggestions that would help my situation. I do not understand why others on this forum are so quick to post replies that are of no use. I really do not need these kind of comments and they help no one.

 

[oljohnboy]

My shop has a Phaedra system with twin DeWalt DW705 saws. This setup is entirely adequate and cuts perfect miters every time -- better than the chops we get from most suppliers. The miter sander would fix a slight inaccuracy, anyway.

There is some chance of inaccuracy when you have only one saw and shift it to cut left and right miters. Having two saws in my setup, I don't have to change them for normal use. That said, the better DeWalt saws have a strong and accurate detent, so when you get your saw perfectly adjusted, you should be able to shift it routinely and still cut good miters.

You have not described the nature of the inaccuracy. Are your miters open at the front or back of the corners, or are are they open on the top or bottom of the moulding? Is the inaccuracy of the cuts consistent?

now this helps! thank you.the miters are open on the inside, on two corners. its like the saw is cutting at 44.5 degrees if that helps.

 

[oljohnboy]

I check and adjust my Porter cable saw using a machinists vee-block. It is a rectangular steel block with a perfect vee for centering round stock. Its 90 deg sides are perfect and you can see tilt in the blade easily. Adjust slowly and check each side of the blade, deck and rear fence. I check mine about once a month or if I see an imperfect corner (assuming the stick was not warped).
You can find them at Machinists Supply corp or Grainger.

the vee block seems to be a really good idea. it is machined to a perfect 90. i think this would help the saw, but what about the sander?

 

[Richard Darling]

ask yourself this:

why would you post stuff like this to my thread instead of posting suggestions that would help my situation. I do not understand why others on this forum are so quick to post replies that are of no use. I really do not need these kind of comments and they help no one.

John, you asked the question. And as far as I can tell, you're getting a bunch of really good answers. Naturally, you're free to ignore any answers you don't like. But you asked professional framers for their advice on your situation. You may be able to make your $200 solution work, but maybe not. You get to decide.

I don't think I'd be so quick to deride good answers to your question.

 

[oljohnboy]

John, you asked the question. And as far as I can tell, you're getting a bunch of really good answers. Naturally, you're free to ignore any answers you don't like. But you asked professional framers for their advice on your situation. You may be able to make your $200 solution work, but maybe not. You get to decide.

I don't think I'd be so quick to deride good answers to your question.

I have had good answers. I have stated that. I am replying to the good and the bad. Where you pull $200 from i don't know. I may not have a framesquare, but I will produce well built frames with what I have. Everyone starts somewhere. People should try to support others, not make poor comments on their equipment. I am aware of what I have. I started with a $400 camera and turned it into a 6 figure business in 1 year. I will do the same with this. I have asked one question, and have received good and poor answers. I think that I should be able to speak my mind to others as they have done to me. It is all part of a process. I would like to thank everyone that has contributed good answers including you Richard.

 

[blackiris]

HEY!!!!! Here's what the miter sander looks like!!
I hear its pretty sweet in helping out wacked out mitres!!!!
I want one really bad........

Oooooooooops..........didnt read ur first post saying you had a sander..MY BAD!!!
Anyway..........i thought that would fix the mitres.........one customer did say to me that you can cut one mitre at 44.5 and the other at 45.5........havent tried that yet........
good luck!

 

[Dees Dad]

the vee block seems to be a really good idea. it is machined to a perfect 90. i think this would help the saw, but what about the sander?

Exactly the same. Adjust the table to the abrasive surface and check it monthly or after truing 5" or 6" heavy legs.

Checking the 45 fence can be done with machinist triangles available from the same sources. Stuff made in USA costs more but is dead nuts.

 

[Prospero]

ask yourself this:

why would you post stuff like this to my thread instead of posting suggestions that would help my situation. I do not understand why others on this forum are so quick to post replies that are of no use. I really do not need these kind of comments and they help no one.

Sorry the answer is not the one you hoping to hear.

Magic is a bit more difficult.

 

[oljohnboy]

HEY!!!!! Here's what the miter sander looks like!!
I hear its pretty sweet in helping out wacked out mitres!!!!
I want one really bad........

Well just to comment on that. so far I have found that the superior sander has way too many points that cause inaccuracies. Even when I get it where I want, it wobbles just a hair, depending on how I push it. Hopefully I will be able to work it out though. Look at your pic, the little black knobs are on an adjustable screw. the knob holds the fence still. well the knob wobbles slightly on the screw, so the fence wobbles. if you tighten the black knob, it is very hard to lift to swing the fence. This is my experience so far. I hope it improves!

 

[j Paul]

ask yourself this:

why would you post stuff like this to my thread instead of posting suggestions that would help my situation. I do not understand why others on this forum are so quick to post replies that are of no use. I really do not need these kind of comments and they help no one.

Why? Because those individuals are not convinced that you will consistently get good cuts with your set-up. Maybe they are wrong, I don't know because I don't have a set-up like yours. However, the value in their comments, even if not for you, is that others reading this thread now and in the future, might decide to investigate other options before purchasing such a set-up. Others will find some of the solutions suggested as to your problem a benefit to them as well. Don't take offense so easily, use the suggestions that you like. Get easily offended and the G probably isn't the best place to be.

 

[Jim Miller]

the miters are open on the inside, on two corners...

Your saw's vertical alignment may be OK. If that were off, your miters would probably be open at the top or bottom.

Although the error may show up on only two corners, probably four miters are similarly inaccurate, or maybe all eight of them.

If your saw came with a manual that includes alignment instructions, read carefully. I suggest checking these adjustments:

1. Blade angle -- This is what you control by shifting the saw side-to-side. First, loosen the screws that hold the alignment plate. A draftsman's triangle, 45/45/90 is my tool of choice for the adjustment. Lay the triangle on the saw's "table" surface and shove it against the fence on each side of the blade. Adjust the blade angle to match the 45-degree angle precisely.

Now, check the other side. If the blade angle seems to be correct on one side but not the other, then you have a misaligned vertical fence.

2. Fence angles -- I believe your saw has separate vertical fences, one on each side of the blade. Using your straightest straightedge, check to be sure the adjustable fence is in perfect alignment with the fixed fence. If both fences are adjustable, make sure they both perfectly match a 45-degree blade angle.

Allowing that perfection is elusive, once your saw is perfectly aligned, you shoud be able to cut perfect miters. However, you also need a proper blade; I suggest using a carbide-tipped blade of 80 or 100 teeth. Buy a spare blade and have them resharpened regularly.

Operation of saws like yours & mine is less automatic than using a $6,000 double miter saw. We need to be careful about how we pull the blade down through the moulding, and how we let it return to the resting postition. Cut slowly, so that the motor does not labor or reduce RPM significantly. Always pull straight down, being careful not to put any side-force on the blade. Let it up slowly, too.

 

[JbNormandog]

Are you using any type of moulding clamp.

Sometimes they can help but, they can also cause a gap in some profiles.



Bob

 

[oljohnboy]

Why? Because those individuals are not convinced that you will consistently get good cuts with your set-up. Maybe they are wrong, I don't know because I don't have a set-up like yours. However, the value in their comments, even if not for you, is that others reading this thread now and in the future, might decide to investigate other options before purchasing such a set-up. Others will find some of the solutions suggested as to your problem a benefit to them as well. Don't take offense so easily, use the suggestions that you like. Get easily offended and the G probably isn't the best place to be.

quotes like this "
I think you need to ask yourself this: Why would a framer pay $4000+ for a fairly basic single mitre saw when they can get one for $200?" do not help. that is my point. no point on commenting on it. Maybe people would like to investigate the solution since that is what this threads purpose is for.

 

[oljohnboy]

Your saw's vertical alignment may be OK. If that were off, your miters would probably be open at the top or bottom.

Although the error may show up on only two corners, probably four miters are similarly inaccurate, or maybe all eight of them.

If your saw came with a manual that includes alignment instructions, read carefully. I suggest checking these adjustments:

1. Blade angle -- This is what you control by shifting the saw side-to-side. First, loosen the screws that hold the alignment plate. A draftsman's triangle, 45/45/90 is my tool of choice for the adjustment. Lay the triangle on the saw's "table" surface and shove it against the fence on each side of the blade. Adjust the blade angle to match the 45-degree angle precisely.

Now, check the other side. If the blade angle seems to be correct on one side but not the other, then you have a misaligned vertical fence.

2. Fence angles -- I believe your saw has separate vertical fences, one on each side of the blade. Using your straightest straightedge, check to be sure the adjustable fence is in perfect alignment with the fixed fence. If both fences are adjustable, make sure they both perfectly match a 45-degree blade angle.

Allowing that perfection is elusive, once your saw is perfectly aligned, you shoud be able to cut perfect miters. However, you also need a proper blade; I suggest using a carbide-tipped blade of 80 or 100 teeth. Buy a spare blade and have them resharpened regularly.

Operation of saws like yours & mine is less automatic than using a $6,000 double miter saw. We need to be careful about how we pull the blade down through the moulding, and how we let it return to the resting postition. Cut slowly, so that the motor does not labor or reduce RPM significantly. Always pull straight down, being careful not to put any side-force on the blade. Let it up slowly, too.

thank you very much for your reply. now this is information I can use. Just to let everyone know, I just went to a machine shop and borrowed a block that has a 45 degree and 90 degree. It is accurate to .0001 of an inch. i am going to use it this evening to check everything. I hope this helps. Also, I know that this is not the optimal set up. I understand that there are better machines out there. Someone always has something better! I am no Jones.

As far as pulling the saw down ,i will make a concious effort to look at how I am cutting and see if I am the problem. Thank you very much for your response, it was very helpful.

 

[j Paul]

I think you need to ask yourself this: Why would a framer pay $4000+ for a fairly basic single mitre saw when they can get one for $200?" .

Because they are not all created equal, that is the point.
It's kind of the same argument that we sometimes have with a framing customer. They just don't see the difference in a quality framing job and somethings that looks similar even though it is not.

Maybe you should start your next thread when asking for advice with a statement such as: Stick to the point, I don't want any other options / opinions. I know that many Grumblers, after reading this thread are going to be less likely to offer help when you ask in the future.

You did ask, WHY? someone would make such a statement on your thread, I tried to give you perspective on that, but it didn't seem to fit with what you wanted to hear, so I'm done with it.

 

[ken]

re

You will also want to make sure your saw is running full rpm before starting the blade into the molding. One more thing make sure your saw is running ok. By that I mean if he brushes in the saw are not making good contact it may not be reaching full rpm. You will be hearing a poping and frying noise from the motor if they are not operating correctly.

 

[oljohnboy]

Because they are not all created equal, that is the point.
It's kind of the same argument that we sometimes have with a framing customer. They just don't see the difference in a quality framing job and somethings that looks similar even though it is not.

Maybe you should start your next thread when asking for advice with a statement such as: Stick to the point, I don't want any other options / opinions. I know that many Grumblers, after reading this thread are going to be less likely to offer help when you ask in the future.

You did ask, WHY? someone would make such a statement on your thread, I tried to give you perspective on that, but it didn't seem to fit with what you wanted to hear, so I'm done with it.

are you just trying to rack up posts, because this does not help. You think I dont know there is better framing equipment? this is what I have, and I want to calibrate it. and I have tonight with a machinist block. Paul, I would not be so quick to assume that someone could make the same quality frame as you can. I own a portrait studio. I can try to get people to understand that my portrait is better, but you have to understand that the consumer does not see the same thing as you do, often it is much less. they would be just as satisfied with a "lesser quality" frame because they cannot see the difference. That is fine. My compound miter saw frame is not going to fall off the wall! I dont think anyone needs to blow smoke around here. Everyone is here for one thing...money. I want to make money with my equipment, so do you. So when I post needing help on a specific topic, I would expect to get specific answers. So my apologies for being irritated that people would post that I need other equipment...

 

[oljohnboy]

You will also want to make sure your saw is running full rpm before starting the blade into the molding. One more thing make sure your saw is running ok. By that I mean if he brushes in the saw are not making good contact it may not be reaching full rpm. You will be hearing a poping and frying noise from the motor if they are not operating correctly.

Ken, thanks, the saw is brand new. It seems to be running perfect. I have been trying to be more aware of how I use the saw and the affects it has on the cut.

 

[oljohnboy]

I would like to make a statement here. As everyone can see I am on edge with my new equipement. I do not appreciate people basically telling me that I have wasted my money, when I know for a fact I havent. I have calibrated my saw, and have joined my first perfect frame. Thank you to everyone that posted a helpfull, insightful comment.

 

[Thedra]

the consumer does not see the same thing as you do, often it is much less. they would be just as satisfied with a "lesser quality" frame because they cannot see the difference. That is fine. My compound miter saw frame is not going to fall off the wall! I dont think anyone needs to blow smoke around here. Everyone is here for one thing...money. I want to make money with my equipment, so do you. So when I post needing help on a specific topic, I would expect to get specific answers. So my apologies for being irritated that people would post that I need other equipment...

Pehaps you as a consumer do not see the same things we do and your " Perfect Frame" isn't so perfect. As a photographer and a Professional framer I just love photographers that come on here asking for advice but only want the advice that fits their preconceptions. It makes it harder for the rest of us to be taken seriously. Please do not make the generalization that we are here for one thing --- money. If you would take the time to read the posts on this forum, you would find most of us are about the quality not "lesser quality". We will often take measures that will insure the preservation of the customers art not for the money, but because it is right. Furthermore if we could not do the quality needed and still make money, most of us would find a new career!

Yes, it is good that you found the answers to true up your saw, but the other advice should be just as important to you.

Good photos can be taken with a point an shoot, but you would never recomend a photographer start up a studio with such equipment.

Tom

 

[Richard Darling]

I do not appreciate people basically telling me that I have wasted my money, when I know for a fact I havent.

But John, you came to a forum of professional framer's because you had a question. What if you really had just wasted your money? Would you want us to tell you otherwise? Would you want to waste your time trying to fine tune a piece of equipment that was never going to work for you? Some folks have bought the little Logan frame joiners on ebay, then came to us asking how to make them work.

You did not contact technical support for step-by-step instructions. You came to a forum, where you will receive opinions (sometimes good, sometimes not so good) about the question you posted. You're free to sort through the opinions to determine what advice best suits you. But you should also appreciate ALL the advice and opinions you receive, because they come from people who are sincere in their attempt to help you. And sometimes the most helpful answer is the one we don't want to hear.

I'm glad you were able to resolve the issue with your equipment. I hope it continues to work well for you.

 

[oljohnboy]

Pehaps you as a consumer do not see the same things we do and your " Perfect Frame" isn't so perfect. As a photographer and a Professional framer I just love photographers that come on here asking for advice but only want the advice that fits their preconceptions. It makes it harder for the rest of us to be taken seriously. Please do not make the generalization that we are here for one thing --- money. If you would take the time to read the posts on this forum, you would find most of us are about the quality not "lesser quality". We will often take measures that will insure the preservation of the customers art not for the money, but because it is right. Furthermore if we could not do the quality needed and still make money, most of us would find a new career!

Yes, it is good that you found the answers to true up your saw, but the other advice should be just as important to you.

Good photos can be taken with a point an shoot, but you would never recomend a photographer start up a studio with such equipment.

Tom

4 corners, no gaps, looks good. Dont make it out to be something more than it is. I have different goals than you. I plan to produce frames only, not frame. So I currently am not concerned with anything other that 4 corners with no gaps. The consumer will never see the amount of time you put into your frame. They will see the price. So if I can provide a quality frame at a good price, then I have succeeded. I would not dare try to frame someones precious memory right now. I know there are steps to take in conservation framing and I will not say that i can do something, and do it poorly.

Secondly, a miter saw is not comparable to a point and shoot. A point and shoot will never produce professional results. I am confident there are many professional framers that use miter saws, and produce professional results. Someone will always have the bigger better equipement. I don't care. But when I post a thread to solve a problem, and others (not all) tell me I have wasted money, that is not advice.

 

[oljohnboy]

But John, you came to a forum of professional framer's because you had a question. What if you really had just wasted your money? Would you want us to tell you otherwise? Would you want to waste your time trying to fine tune a piece of equipment that was never going to work for you? Some folks have bought the little Logan frame joiners on ebay, then came to us asking how to make them work.

You did not contact technical support for step-by-step instructions. You came to a forum, where you will receive opinions (sometimes good, sometimes not so good) about the question you posted. You're free to sort through the opinions to determine what advice best suits you. But you should also appreciate ALL the advice and opinions you receive, because they come from people who are sincere in their attempt to help you. And sometimes the most helpful answer is the one we don't want to hear.

I'm glad you were able to resolve the issue with your equipment. I hope it continues to work well for you.

Tom,

I will ask the question then.

Have I wasted my money?

I am not so sure that every reply was a sincere attempt to help me.

Look, thanks to some of you, My problem is solved. Thanks to those that helped

 

[Richard Darling]

Tom,

It's Richard. Thanks.

 

[Prospero]

Secondly, a miter saw is not comparable to a point and shoot.......

That's exactly the point. A perfect analogy.

If I were to get a little compact camera and decide to become a pro photographer, no amount of advice or calibration would allow me to produce professional standard photographs.

My advice: Forget the saw. Sell it. Look for a good secondhand Morso chopper.