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W.D Quinn Saw Co. - US Made Picture Frame Blades

Brevetti S30 Underpinner

jtremblay99

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Aug 25, 2010
Messages
14
Hi All - We purchased a reconditioned Brevetti S30 Underpinner in late December 2019 from Tech-Mark who provided installation and instruction. As a note we also purchased a Brevetti Saw. I should also mention we are brand new to cutting and joining frames, we purchased our frames cut and joined prior to this.

The joiner came with both a Brevetti head and and AMP head with two sets of spacers for each head. Initially they (Tech-Mark) couldn't get a good join with the two pieces of equipment and after a call into Brevetti (Italy) it was determined that the Brevetti V nails were defective so Tech-Mark swapped out the Brevetti head for the AMP head. This didn't fix the problem - and after more detective work it was determined that the saw was not cutting straight due to the horizontal clamp - which was turned off and then we were able to get good cuts/joins. Tech-Mark left both sets of spacers with us - but took the Brevetti head back with them. We were instructed to use the spacer that matched the V nail (spacers had numbers stamped into them). We had issues with this as the spacers did not work - V Nails were not shooting, or were not shooting all the way into the frame. We also found that several of the spacers were bent. Tech-Mark accused us of bending them, but I wasn't sure how this could have happened at the time. Brevetti was brought in on the issue and it was determined that the Brevetti spacers should not be used, only the AMP set was to be used with AMP nails. A new set of spacers were sent out, we discarded all the old ones. For the past couple of months this worked until the other day when the nails stopped shooting altogether. Another call into Tech-Mark and they now told us to flip the spacer upside down - which worked but begs the question why the spacer worked for a few months and now needed to be flipped over - my guess: the spacers are bending again (although it's not visible).

So my question is does anyone out there use a Brevetti underpinner? Have you had any issues with the spacers? One other thing to mention; The technical person from Tech-Mark mentioned they have parts manufactured by a local machine shop as it's cheaper then getting parts from Brevetti and I'm wondering if this is the problem with our spacers - I asked Tech-Mark this and they assured me they are Brevetti. I also asked Brevetti but have not had a response back yet. The spacers are hand stamped with numbers that are in different locations on the spacers; some on the top, some on the bottom and still some on the sides - also they are double and triple stamped (the person who hand stamped these miss hit the stamp and so the number is stamped several times but mis-aligned. Hope that makes sense).

We are new to this process so we don't know if it's lack of experience or a problem with the machine (or both).
Thanks in advance -
j
 

artfolio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
2,708
I bought a Brevetti Pneumatic underpinner back in the nineties and used it for several years before I sold the business. It is still going strong with the new owners having only needed a couple of new driver blades and a few bits and pieces of the air connections.

What I don't understand is the term "spacer". In mine the v nails were loaded into brass cartridges which slid into a slot behind he head and were fed into place by a simple spring. It could use Brevetti v nails or Universals with no need to change anything.

If I recall correctly the head was fixed but the driver position could be adjusted to ensure the nails were driven to the correct depth but this only ever needed adjusting when changing the driver.
 

jtremblay99

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
14
The spacer is a rectangular block of steel that sits under the v nails with each one a different heights to correspond with the different V Nails - it raises the V Nail to the correct height - so if you are using a #10 V nail you would use a #10 spacer underneath. The PV (Brevetti) magazine uses 6-8-10-12 and 14 marked spacers while the PVA (AMP) magazine uses 5-7-10-12 and 15 marked spacers.

The V Nails do not sit in any sort of cartridge - they are simply loaded on top of the spacer - there is a spring loaded mechanism that pushes the V Nails forward into place.
 

artfolio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
2,708
Sorry, I was thinking of a different machine altogether.

This is not much help to you but I used the original spacers for years on my Brevetti and never needed to replace them. I can only suggest that the carrier is somehow out of alignment and the nails are not lining up correctly with the head?? I cannot see how the machine could be bending the spacers as even the thinnest one is pretty stiff and Superman could not bend the 5mm one.
 
Vermont Hardwoods solid wood picture frame molding

jtremblay99

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
Joined
Aug 25, 2010
Messages
14
I took some photos of the set up Brevetti uses for this machine - The machine was a refurbished machine and came with the Brevetti head installed. Tech-Mark could not get a good join when setting up the machine so changed the head to an AMP head per Brevetti's instructions (Brevetti thought that their v-nails were defective. The new AMP head with the AMP nails did not fix the issue - this is when it was determined that the saw was the issue - I am now wondering if the AMP head is out of alignment - as suggested above. I am including pictures of the bent spacers
 

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jtremblay99

Grumbler in Training
Thread starter
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Aug 25, 2010
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And here are the differences in the heights of the new spacers (shown with white paint on top) vs the old set of spacers. I placed the same # spacer next to each other for comparison
 

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jtremblay99

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Aug 25, 2010
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I should also add that the machine is rusting badly - the top looks like it's been around for 20 years! When it arrived it looked new - we were told that Brevetti repaints the machines when they refurbish it - I don't think this was done correctly as I have owned the machine for less then 6 months -
 
Beauty, Brawn, and Brains: Wizard Z1 CMC

jtremblay99

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Joined
Aug 25, 2010
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Update; Brevetti diagnosed the issues by Video and determined the following;
1. The saw's horizontal clamp needed a shorter pad in order to sit under the Rabbet of the molding - The horizontal clamp that came with the saw was too tall so it was tilting the moldings slightly - because of this issue we were told to disable this clamp (turn it off) and only using the vertical clamp. The result was that the cuts were not super accurate - which is why I think we were having an issue getting a good join. Brevetti is sending out the part for this as we speak -

2. The underpinner's cartridge/carrier was not aligned correctly (you were correct artfolio). The entire assembly needs to be removed and re-installed - Which Brevetti said was too complicated for us to accomplish. We are awaiting Tech-Mark to correct this -
 

jtremblay99

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Aug 25, 2010
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We sent emails to Tech-Mark and copyied Brevetti on what was discovered and how to move forward - Tech-Mark told us it is not feasible for them to do a site visit to fix their installation mistakes. But to make matters worse Brevetti accused us of pitting them against Tech-Mark and inflaming this situation. They informed us that further emails from us would be placed in spam. So we no longer will receive support from either Tech-Mark or Brevetti on both the brand new double miter Jaguar saw and the refurbished S30 underpinned - neither machine is working properly, nor have they ever. What a sad state it is for purchasing framing equipment - I am thoroughly disgusted by this entire process... Is this how this industry works? Are framers expected to fix/modify brand new machines? This is what we are being told... can anyone tell me if this is the norm in the framing industry - ??
 

artfolio

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Feb 16, 2007
Messages
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I had a similar problem to yours years ago.

One of my suppliers showed me a basic computerised matcutter they had imported and it appeared to have all the capabilities I needed at a price way below that of a Wizard or Valiani so I bought one. The thing never worked properly from day one - it could not even cut straight lines - so after multiple attempts at fixing it I told them to take it back. Their head office said they would not refund me but would take it back and try to sell it for me at a price 20% below what I had paid for it.

I took their letter to a lawyer the next day and we invoked the Australian "Sale of Goods Act" telling them in no uncertain terms that the machine was not fit for its intended purpose and if a refund was not forthcoming we would see them in Court.

It worked. They came back to the table and we worked out a fair settlement whereby they gave me a new mitre saw I needed plus a stock credit rather than cash and, best of all, I stayed friends with the local people.

Bottom line is that if someone sells goods which are faulty there are laws which protect the consumer but companies being what they are they will try to get away with it if they can. In my humble opinion, and without knowing much about American commercial law, your beef is with the people who sold you what seems to be a faulty machine. My advice would be to talk to a lawyer, show him or her all the paperwork between you and the vendors and ask what remedies are available to you under the law.

It will cost money, my own affair set me back AUD$1,000, but when people try and was their hands of a problem they need to be held to account.
 

Ylva

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That seems really odd. Why would they not stand behind their product and service?

I would call them and explain what happened. Maybe they took some things the wrong way, not everyone communicated clearly.

Keep us updated and I do hope this will be resolved
 

jtremblay99

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Aug 25, 2010
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My guess is Brevetti does not want to upset Tech-Mark - their US distributer. I came to understand the issues by both video chatting and emailing with Brevetti. I then emailed Tech-Mark to have them fix the issue (Brevetti told me Tech-Mark needed to do the repair) and I copied Brevetti on the email so that everyone was in the loop. Brevetti got extremely upset and accused me of trying to pit them against Tech-Mark. I thought having everyone in on the conversation was being open and honest - Brevetti's response was that they were done with me and that all future emails from me would be put in SPAM.

At this point I am trying to return the machines since I will have no support going forward - Tech-Mark has informed me that this is not how things work and are now sending insulting emails about me needing my hand held - etc.

The sad part of all this is the machines would probably have worked great if Tech-Mark had understood them. If they understood that the saw just needed the correct horizontal clamp they would have gotten good cuts and not swapped out the underpinner's cartridge head, which is what started the whole mess.

I should never have purchased equipment from a company located so far away - I did mention this concern prior to purchase but Tech-Mark assured me that they had 24 hour support and that most repairs could be handled by the framer. They also offered the training and installation - which is why we chose them; being new to this process we wanted to have both of these things in place.

One other thing; when the installer first arrived on site he was in a foul mood. He later informed us that his company thought our frame shop was located where our gallery is; which is in the next town over where there are some 150 galleries. Tech-Mark thought they would get a ton of business by all of the surrounding galleries. When they realized where our frame shop was located they were upset because (I'm quoting here) they gave us a great deal in the hopes of future orders from other businesses - he told us they were not making any money on the sale of this equipment. Then when the whole swapping of the head happened it added an extra day to the trip for him (hotels/meals/time/flights)...
 
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artfolio

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Feb 16, 2007
Messages
2,708
I can see where they are coming from but the misunderstanding of your location was theirs, not yours, and you have still not received value for your dollars.

I feel it is definitely time to involve a disinterested third party to mediate, either a lawyer or some sort of mediation service if you have them in the 'States to work out a fair settlement.
 
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