"Big Brother Grumble" , and "Free Market Grumble."

Marc Lizer

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Jun 28, 1999
North Hollywood, CA
As users (no moderators, . . . yet), please define:

1.Acceptable standards.
A)On any Grumble Forum, except Warped.
B)On Warped

2 Acceptable content.
A)On any Grumble Forum, except Warped.
B)On Warped

and, just to prevent any loopholes, please define:

3 Un-acceptable content.
A)On any Grumble Forum, except Warped.
B)On Warped

Please define range of actions requested to be taken, and please define the continumn they fall on.

Please limit your responses to the iniital quesions, or any additional questions with merit.

It is strongly encouraged that "newbies", and "infrequent posters" reply alongside the veteran Grumblers.

OK. Have at it!
Children need rules because they haven't had sufficient experience of the world to know how to behave in public.

Adults are assumed to have learned these things.

The implication that this forum requires guidelines and codes of behavior is demeaning and insulting to its members.

Thank you, Marc, for instructing us on proper behavior. This is my last post to you, as you seem to be ALWAYS right, and the rest of us need your guidance.

Perhaps you'll remember our little tiff a couple of years ago-when we both got banned. You instructed me, via email, to call you at a specific time, in order to apologize when I was only 'sticking up' for someone who you made fun of because her daughter died at 24 years old.

I called, per your INSTRUCTIONS, and took full blame, promising to never cross swords with you again. Here are some swords that may be percieved as 'cross': Get your medication regulated. Then maybe you'll have something to contribute to the G, if only jokes on Warped.
I have to agree with Kit, wholeheartedly. This is an open forum, we do not need or want policeman. We can police ourselves. The only time I think a moderator should intervene is when a person is being threatened or maliciously attacked.

I am totally offended that a moderator copied that thread on IN LINE OVALS and altered it to be "politically correct". Whoever did that should stop being a moderator now, you have overstepped your bounds and demonstrated your latent bureaucratic leanings.

And Marc, if what Charles said is true, that you made "fun" of someone who's daughter died at twenty four years of age, I hope you never experience losing one of your children.

Absolutely no one can describe, or even begin to know, how horrible it is to hear that your child has been killed. If you have any sort of a God that you believe in, you better start praying if you have, or hope to have, children of your own.

My daughter was killed two weeks ago up in Colorado, God help your sorry butt if you decide to make fun of me.

I'm so sorry to hear about the death of your daughter.

It's been said that the most cruel 'joke' that can be played is when a parent outlives their children.

You and your family are in my thoughts and prayers.

Please accept my sincere condolences. I must admit that you left me speechless nevertheless. What a man are you? Be back here and condoning/initiating our stupid long argument about what a good supplier ILO was to you? The Grumble must be more than a forum to you…
Those are rethorical questions. Don't even try to answer them. It is so painful. May God forgive her and keep her soul next to Him.
Originally posted by American Choice:

May God forgive her and keep her soul next to Him.
And may He hold her in his mighty hand.

It all does seem rhetorical in the light of such a loss, doesn't it?

Thee's more to you AND John than I thought of anyone, Cornel.
My impression was that Marc was soliciting opinions about the level of moderation you all would like for The Grumble. It didn't look to me like he was attempting to impose his own standards though, by definition, that is exactly what moderators are expected to do.

I will admit that I frequently find Marc inscrutable and his posts and intentions incomprehensible, so I could be wrong, but I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Clearly that puts me in the minority here.

Charles, I'm truly sorry you chose to dredge up that old feud with Marc. I don't understand how that is helpful or healthy for The Grumble.

JRB, I cannot begin to comprehend your loss. I dare not even consider how I would deal with it myself. I feel sad to think it came up in this context and wish you could have felt comfortable telling us about it sooner but, as I said, I have no idea what I would do in your situation and I pray I never find out.

For so many reasons, this is a very sad time for the Grumble community. It's time for all of us to take a breather.
Adults are assumed to have learned these things.
The implication that this forum requires guidelines and codes of behavior is demeaning and insulting to its members.
I agree with your first assertion; but disagree with your second.

In any civilized discussions there are (sometimes undefined) rules of engagement. I’m not sure that anyone can adequately codify them but recently these forums have had all the subtlety and nuance of a bar fight.

It makes me very uncomfortable to see the acrimony exhibited in some posts.

Boorishness is like pornography – I cannot define it but I know it when I see it.

I do not suggest that we bleep anyone, but I do suggest that anyone posting to these forums <u>read their messages aloud to themselves</u> before clicking the “reply” button.
"I do not suggest that we bleep anyone, but I do suggest that anyone posting to these forums read their messages aloud to themselves before clicking the “reply” button."

I personally do this often. I also find that in dealing with certain persons/person, my comments are not harsh enough. As tempers flair, words and sentences become shorter and more blunt.
I have personally never had a problem with being censored on the Grumble. I can tell you it is has been a phenomenal resource to be able to rely on. Where else can you go to get information from top conservators, as well as fellow commiserators? I hope we never lose sight of the big picture here. It seems to me that we are here to support each other in times that are good or bad.

With that being said, EVERYONE should post with respect to other folks. We are all going to have differences from time to time, but it's never worth losing a friend over.

Finally, John please know that you and your family will remain in my thoughts and prayers. Being a father myself I cannot imagine what you are going through. I am deeply sorry for your loss.
I saw this post when it first came on. I didn't know what to think. And I certainly didn't want to be the first to post to it. Glad I waited.

I did reivew the guidelines and censorship information for the grumble. That should be enough for us grumblers.

If there are those that really enjoy the sparring - maybe a forum calling the "boxing ring" should be implemented - let the parties fight it out to their hearts content... as establishments that serve food/liquor are faced with confrontational guests, they are told to "take it outside". Those that imflame threads are really only hurting themselves because it reflects on their own character and I take the "sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me" attitude with life (most of the time).

I don't want the grumble to be a place I don't want to frequent because of the few that don't get along or are very opinionated, and for those that speak their mind, if I don't like what I am reading - I will just change the channel (or thread)...
John, my heartfelt condolences go out to you. What a horrible tragedy. Please know that many thoughts of support are being "sent" your way.

I didn't take offense to the original post. It seems to me that most of the problems lie when participants misinterpret intentions, which is a common problem w/ electronic communication.

1. The Grumble should be a resource for FRAMING issues - instructional in nature. Discussions should be courteous and that should be a no-brainer.

2. Warped should be for anything not related to framing. Or a framing related item which is not instructional in nature. The other sections, i.e. Business issues, etc. are self-explanatory.

3. Differences in opinions are a good thing but recognize them as just that and not personal attacks.

If something seems like a personal attack (or blatantly is), shrug it off or reply to the author Privately.

4. Many times I see participants being Way too Sensitive. Take a deep breath and envision yourself as replying in person in front of several thousand people. Would you say the same things? If not, then don't say them on TG.

5. Ask yourself if what you are about to post is making a positive contribution to those in the framing industry.

6. This discussion forum is a Wealth of information. That's what I come here for and enjoy leaving w/ a smile on my face and having had a chuckle or 2 along the way.

Have a good day everyone.

Amy McCray
Somewhere the whole intent of this thread got lost. I think Marc was obviously asking how heavily moderated of a forum we want. I don't profess to always understand his secret language and thought processes. In fact, when I see Marc appear and start posting I always hear the theme from Jaws in my head.(Old habit, ala Ally McBeal)That is an example of why I don't care for heavy moderation because not everybody is going to read things the same way and you cannot establish intent. If somebody posts something that is just meant to inflame or if they start personal attacks or if they start calling names that is when the "authorities" need to come in.

I'm not sure why that old ugly stuff got brought up either. But, if any good comes from it John got to unload his grief and we got to tell him he has friends.
Marc invited me to say a few words on this thread yesterday. Maybe the invitation was in jest, maybe there was some scarcasm, maybe he was serious! I think he was serious but without inflection or voice I can't be sure.

I have read a lot of grumble threads and have come to understand that we often perceive what others say from our personal perspective. Another perspective may or may not be helpful.

If some one is in a good mood and replies with a flippant answer, then the thread may take a turn down, especially if the original poster is in a serious need for an answer to a question.

If the posters gender is not known, some answers may appear inappropriate.

I have questioned some answers because they just didn't fit the poster. We all make fun of Less and his unseal.....But I think some members post from time to time when they have had a little. We need to acknowledge this may be happen.

Sometimes in the early stages of getting to know someone they may seem a little pompous or anal. And you think they need a little jab. Well I think the same. But...........

The Kings English, Slang, cultural or ethnic variances may add tension.

Spelling, Punctuation, typos can also become reasons for misunderstandings.

I have seen new grumblers who have been insulted, chastised or belittled for no more reason than having a user name that invokes an attack from the top of the pecking order. (Blondie)

I have read moderators initiate and set the tone for sarcasm and then chastise when others jump in it gets out of hand.

It's a wonder we are not at each others throats.
and I guess some of us are.

We have gone through the censorship discussion with framer long before especially after ben readin kept posting and I think JRB said it then and says it right in his latest posts.

My only advise is have fun on warped. be respectful on the grumble.

With much thought and consideration,
Hard to argue with any of that, Mitch.

A handful of you would truly prefer an unmoderated Grumble: Hawk your wares, promote your own personal bigotries and curse and demean anyone who doesn't agree with you. Nobody would stop you. The people who disdain moderation would, for the most part, never do any of these things, but - in the name of free speech or "healthy disagreement" - will defend the right of others to do so.

Most of you, however, think you'd like the moderators to seek a consensus before taking any serious action, like editing, closing or deleting a thread.

Let's think about whether this is even possible. Yesterday I received three moderator alerts in about an hour asking me (and the other moderators) to close or delete the original Inline Ovals thread that JRB started. I received the same number of emails echoing the same sentiment.

At exactly the same time, there were several Grumblers bitterly complaining about the last deletion that occurred a couple of weeks ago.

Lacking a consensus, most of us will follow our conscience and use our best judgment. But here's the part that makes many of your squeamish: I believe a moderator with integrity and at least a little self-confidence will follow his or her conscience even when it runs contrary to an apparent consensus. To do otherwise would be cowardly.

These kinds of decisions don't come up daily or even monthly on The Grumble. For the most part, it's a civil and friendly place and real ugliness is rare. Everyday moderating involves disposing of accidental duplicate posts and the occasional duplicate thread (I have no idea how that happens,) redirecting new Grumblers to a forum more appropriate to their question, trying to help with log-in problems and just generally working more like school crossing guards than police snipers.

Do moderators make mistakes, act foolishly or impulsively and sometimes raise some ****? Well, I do, and a couple of others might. Sometimes I wish I could be more like Mike (Labbe.) Mike is calm, level-headed and always nice.

But I'm me, Charles is Charles, Marc is Marc and Cornel is Cornel. It's only when I can actually remember that that I am calm, level-headed and nice.
I agree with Ron's first post (gulp) and I didn't think Marc was trying to start anything.

I did learn something though - there were rules?

I personally like this forum as open and free wheeling as possible and that goes for all the forums. I don't believe it should ever contain a personal attack on another G'er. Keep that stuff in personal correspondence.

As for the old stuff that's come up...water under the bridge.

Overall the moderators do a pretty good job and the only time I've disagreed with something was a few weeks ago on the corner sample discussion where the whole topic went away when I think a few posts could have been dashed and the healthy part of the discussion could have continued.

Other than that...(as LTCG) would say, "Getter Done!"
Originally posted by John Richards:
I did learn something though - there were rules?
Well, no.

I think that's what Marc was getting at. Lacking any rules or standards (unpopular terms, I know) every moderator will interpret a thread or post based on his or her personal experiences and sensitivities. What I think Marc was asking is, "Do you want rules?" and the resounding answer would appear to be, "No, but thanks so much for asking."

My personal rules of engagement are pretty simple. "You are wrong and I disagree with you" is fine. "You are a stupid jackass son-of-a-bitch" is not - even if I happen to agree.
"If the posters gender is not known, some answers may appear inappropriate."

I’m male. I hope that helps.

"These kinds of decisions don't come up daily or even monthly on The Grumble. For the most part, it's a civil and friendly place and real ugliness is rare."

If that’s the case then what is the problem with deleting a thread? I mean the whole thing. Unless any moderator is getting paid they shouldn't have to "clean up" or moderate a thread post by post. If a thread is just nasty and unpleasant (we all know which ones those are) then why not just send it off with all the other cyber trash? If somebody ends up posting pictures of small mules then delete it again and start a third time.

The ideas don't have to change but maybe the language can. By the way is there anybody out there paying for corner samples?????
By the way is there anybody out there paying for corner samples?????
Thanks for all the kind thoughts you guys, I really do appreciate them and the e-mails I have received.

Oh Boy...

To answer Marc: I like the Grumble just the way it is. Personally, I don't like to see edits or thread deletions in any forum, but it's a small price to pay for such a valuable resource.

To JRB: Your professionalism really came through (loud and clear) during the banter. It sounds like the community you serve is lucky to have you. And doesn't it sound like American Choice wants to kiss and make up? And about your daughter, I am so sorry for your loss. No words can wash away that kind of pain. You and your family will be in my prayers.

And Jay:
By the way is there anybody out there paying for corner samples????
That was funny!

:D :D
Marc, I want to apologize for the way I snapped at you. I received an e-mail from a long time Grumbler who clarified what actually took place.

Ron Edgers had deleted the thread in question, so there is no way of going back to it.

This also is an excellent example of why threads should not be deleted. Locked, yes, deleted, absolutely not.

I do not agree that threads should be interrupted with threats of being deleted or actually having it take place.

All of this stuff is part of our history, good or bad, ugly or not. I have made many posts that I wish I hadn't, but no matter how you look at it, it was my feelings at that time.

If all we want is a censored, politically correct version of The Grumble, then I see little value in the whole thing.

This is an open forum, it not only teaches, it gives a pulse of our industry and the moods of the people in it. This really is part of our history. I am against tampering with it in any way other than locking the thread.

This issue has been hashed and re-hashed, it makes no difference. The moderators can, and do, whatever strikes them.

Myself, I would like to see some changes when it comes to deleting. I would like to see it stopped completely.

Unless we are all of the mindset that we should go into schools and tear out pages of textbooks that we don't agree with. Same way with the Bible, if you come across anything you don't agree with, just tear it out, it's easy, the paper is usually quite thin.

Wait, you can't tear pages from the Bible, it's part of our religious history, isn't it?

This forum is part of our chosen livelihood's history, why do we condone pages being ripped from it?

Well, Grumblers, there you have it.

It's open season on each other. Only a very few of you will take advantage of it (and JRB isn't even one of them) but that's all it takes.

See ya around. It's been a blast.
Yeah, I'll being 'seeing you around', if I interpret your meaning, Ron. (not YOU, but the whole bbs).

I've sent emails, left messages on answering machines all day, and was only able to get a response from emibub. Can't even get an answer via email, from framer.

So...I guess it's all my fault. I'm used to taking the blame, whether I deserve it or not.

So, for the time being, "Happy Trails". Until we meet again.
Ron, don't get all upset. Things where done that way.

My opinion, and that is all it is, is no more deleting.

You have established yourself as the number one Grumbler, you have done a great job moderating and contributing.

If you are upset because I want to bring deleting to a halt, and you don't think opinions such as that should be condoned, then I agree, see ya.

Truth of the matter is I think a heck of a lot of us would miss you. I do not always agree with you or some of your actions, so what? That's what is one of the main appeals of The Grumble, we can, and do, disagree with each other.

There is many reasons The Grumble is a great place, you are one of them.

Charles, stop that, your one of em too. Lets not all be heading for the hills, just because it gets a little dicey now and then.

Oh gosh. Let's see if I have this all straight. (Hard to do here in Portland. We don't have much practice)

John hates delets or draconian moderation

Ron feels kicked about to-much

Charles is feeling shuned

Less likes his Unseal

Kathy wants us to all act like adults (?)

Rebecca doesn't like shellac

Wally Fay has a problem with Florida fawna
(actually I'm there with you on that one Wally)

Cornell has no respect for formaldihyde & sawdust ILOs

and nobody has heard from GumboGirl

Yep, sounds like my kind of family: all screwed up, ready for another go around, and if someone pulls out a long table with food and drink on it, you're ALL ready do sit at the same table and break bread together.
And if you all take a deep breath, and think about all of us for a bit; we're the fun family that was down the block that you wished you were a part of when you were growing up.
You're here now. Now play nice or you go to your rooms.

Close the thread or send it to the trash but I'd prefer no changes to the original text regardless what cap'n engles says. Just my opinion and no offence meant to anyone.
John, when my dog craps (sorry, I think 'defecate' is a MUCH uglier word) on the neighbor's lawn, it becomes part of his personal history. Does that mean I shouldn't clean it up?

My post last night was a bit abrupt, but the sentiment was true. I'm tired and I need a sabbatical. If I'm mad at anybody, I'll get over it.

By the way, there are entire books of the Bible that are missing because church leaders got together and decided they weren't appropriate reading.

I don't need, or expect to get, the last word. I do need, and expect to get, a very long nap, so I'm going to my room now.

Please observe the 'Do Not Disturb' sign on the door.
By the way, there are entire books of the Bible that are missing because church leaders got together and decided they weren't appropriate reading.
Constantine was the “moderator” and he did a pretty good job all things considering, so, Ron, use your best judgment and continue what you’re doing.
Bill, who/what is Porky Pine? I'm thinking that's something Porky Pig would have said
Porky Pine is a character in the old Walt Kelly comic strip, “Pogo”.

He was a grumpy sort.

and nobody has heard from GumboGirl
Gumbogirl is learning her "place" on the G. Lots less posting, lot more lurking.
Having family strewn from New Orleans to Mobile, up thru B'ham, she has been preparing for her share of Ivan, houseguests, etc. And a healthy dose of framing, for good measure.

Re: the topic of this thread. Well, I actually (think) I got the jist of the duplicate thread you did, Marc. It was a "see what it could be like" thread.
I am for cleaning up threads (removing profanity, etc. that is degrading, personal attacks, obvious ugly stuff). I also know there's a line, and it is really subject to moderator interpretation and recently, mood. That gets into murky territory. I don't think threads should be deleted entirely. I hate to see people get attacked on this board, but I hate even more, at the end of the day when the seas are calm, that I cannot access recent input on paying for corner samples, b/c a few people lost their cool, and the whole thing was dumped.

But, hey, I am not a moderator, and I cannot imagine the time and effort it requires to "take out" the garbage on some threads recently. (What is in the air, anyway? )

I also think that boards that have no moderaters rum amock and become worthless, in very short order.

Put me down for moderators in moderation, please. And, one order of common sense and self control for all the grown ups, please...
Originally posted by Baer Charlton:

Kathy wants us to all act like adults (?)
Nope, you have the wrong girl there Baer. If this were a Bizarro World post I would like it to be changed to "Kathy wants us to all act like chimpanzees". It'd be a lot happier place fer shure......
Flintstone, word on the street is that Ron's been moderated to Truth Or Consequences, New Mexico, where he's waiting for the 'mother ship' with the 1954 model Bob Barker to take him on an intergalactic cruise.

I, however, am waiting for the ship with John Charles Daley of "What's My Line" fame.
Is Ron's giving Baer a chance to catch up with him?

Other than that... I think John Baker speaks like those brave American heros from Jules Vernes' books. Incidentally, this is how I got to love America in the first place, from reading.
Useless to say that I am with John in this but I keep low profile on it, since I came to represent the axes of Evil within TG
, and I don't want you haste to action and throw the baby with the water.
Bill Henry, I see by the cup that Walt Kelly did indeed do him. Funny I thought Walt Kelly did Woody Woodpecker; and Bill Cannon did Pogo.

Now I know the mind is going.