Occasionally we get an order for an 8 ply mat, but the color the customer wants is only available in 4 ply (I'm talking white and off white rag, not colored mat). I've tried dry mounting two 4-plys together in the heat press with Fusion 4000, but you could see the line where they join on the bevel. Would spray mount be better? I'm thinking I'd have the same issue. Any one have a better solution?
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Best way to make 8 ply mat from 2-4 ply mats?
- Thread starter Echobelly
- Start date
Mary Beth van der Horst
CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
I've fudged the look of a couple (technically 12 plys) before by cutting a 4 ply top mat, then a white 8 ply at exactly 1/8" reveal so that ONLY the bevel is visible. Not perfect, but good enough in those instances to get us the look we were going for.
On second thought, you may be better off just spraymounting or adhering a paper to an 8 ply. Shouldn't be as likely to see the line where the materials meet
On second thought, you may be better off just spraymounting or adhering a paper to an 8 ply. Shouldn't be as likely to see the line where the materials meet
cjmst3k
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
- Messages
- 4,401
Not from experience, but maybe spray-mount, but protect about 1/2" from the cut line, so you don't have the seam glue exposed, though it would leave the seam unsupported. Maybe do a simple cut test using flaw boards? Also, maybe butting the backs of the mats together, so the white is on white?
framah
PFG, Picture Framing God
If you are mostly trying to use white and off white rag, then Rising has them in 8 ply.
White, warm white, antique and a couple other variations of white.
White, warm white, antique and a couple other variations of white.
JFeig
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I have made up to 16 ply board with a vacuum press and a paste adhesive. After the press, it goes under 2 pieces of 1/4" plate glass overnight. The glass was salvaged from storefront broken windows.
Hugh Phibbs related the story of having to make their own 8-ply matting at The National Gallery before it was commonly available. They would mix up a large batch of rice starch paste and roll it on one side of the 4-ply mat and put 2 4-ply mats on top of that in a repeated pattern until they ran out of paste or mats. Weighted overnight.
You can do the same thing in a vacuum press, as Jerry mentioned.
I have made 8-ply using Seal Buffermount which is still visible at close inspection. You have to cool the package under pressure so it ties up the press for quite a while.
For larger sizes, above 40" X 60", or in solid colors not available in 8-ply from regular suppliers, I cut the top mat from 4/ply, then pinwheel beveled strips to match the bevel for as many layers as required. the strips are held in place with a combination of ATG and buffered PVA glue kept back from the bevel by 1/2" or so.
Rising has started making their basic 8-ply White and Warm White in 48" X 72".
You can do the same thing in a vacuum press, as Jerry mentioned.
I have made 8-ply using Seal Buffermount which is still visible at close inspection. You have to cool the package under pressure so it ties up the press for quite a while.
For larger sizes, above 40" X 60", or in solid colors not available in 8-ply from regular suppliers, I cut the top mat from 4/ply, then pinwheel beveled strips to match the bevel for as many layers as required. the strips are held in place with a combination of ATG and buffered PVA glue kept back from the bevel by 1/2" or so.
Rising has started making their basic 8-ply White and Warm White in 48" X 72".
RoboFramer
PFG, Picture Framing God
I do it quite often, both for cotton and woodpulp boards, for the woodpulp boards - it will be alphamat artcare I make sure the bottom board is "igloo" as that is the closest colour to the core/backing paper. 8 ply in any colour you like. Starch paste with a small roller, weighted overnight.
Rick Granick
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
I've done that too. For special decorative effects you can mix and match the bevel layer colors too.
Rick
You could try this. Peel off the color needed and mount it to the 8ply
www.thegrumble.com
Tips & Tricks
This thread is for sharing hints, hacks, tips, tricks and whatever makes your framing easier. Since every good thread needs a mascot, we'll start with the cutest shim, ever. Needed to hold the acrylic end out from the wall, and our bee balloon was happy to help. :)
www.thegrumble.com
MnSue
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
and remember what we see at 6" is not seem from 6 feet away.....
Great idea!You could try this. Peel off the color needed and mount it to the 8ply
Tips & Tricks
This thread is for sharing hints, hacks, tips, tricks and whatever makes your framing easier. Since every good thread needs a mascot, we'll start with the cutest shim, ever. Needed to hold the acrylic end out from the wall, and our bee balloon was happy to help. :)
Tell that to some of our customers that go over the frame with a magnifying glass....
cjmst3k
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
- Messages
- 4,401
I have zero customers that pick up their piece from 6 feet away. It makes reaching it to hold it challenging.
Framar
WOW Framer
LOL - I had a customer who used to pick her mat colors out on the sidewalk in the sun. Always wondered if she was planning on hanging them outdoors.
05
Conservator
It happens that this is something I really know about. Make some paste. cut your boards a little big, mark one lightly where the window will be.Thinly brush on some paste about 2” around the marks, slam the boards together, put some weight on it for 20 minutes, you’re good to go. Keep the moisture minimal, or the boards will warp. If you use a synthetic adhesive, there will be a shiny line between the layers. If you use 2 different color boards, you can get a great effect. This works with both 4 & 8 ply.
monkey
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
I use ATG, simple and quick. Otherwise it is no longer profitable. I'd rather tell then its not available.
Measure where your cut out window is going to be and place the ATG about 1" to 3/4" away from the cut out window and cut the mat. When framed and pressed against the glass its barely noticeable, as long as the core are the same color and you sandwich the back side of the mats together.
Measure where your cut out window is going to be and place the ATG about 1" to 3/4" away from the cut out window and cut the mat. When framed and pressed against the glass its barely noticeable, as long as the core are the same color and you sandwich the back side of the mats together.
RoboFramer
PFG, Picture Framing God
What exactly is pressing anything against the glass? The only pressure you can apply is at the extremities. Also, even when bonding two mats together for a double mat, ATG/DS tape won't last, it needs to be something wet, the DS/ATG only serves to hold things while the wet adhesive dries.
monkey
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
3M 924 ATG works just fine for me. ATG is holding 2 mat boards together. Not like your holding anything heavy or structural. The mat board is sandwiched between the backing board and glass.
So you make a typical double mat with wet adhesive? What brand ATG are you using? I use 3M ATG. And when I make a booboo and have to separate the mat the surface paper tears. To me this is strong enough.
In general, I only use 3M ATG, I have used generic brand in the past and they don't hold well over time.
RoboFramer
PFG, Picture Framing God
It's been covered here many times self adhesive versus wet adhesive - chemical bond versus mechanical bond. There is no argument that wet adhesive makes a better bond, when it dries is when it works, when the DS tape dries is when it starts to fail - just search with a few key words.
Regards this topic, you really need to be cutting through the adhesive you use and even then you may see a join, more chance of that with DS or ATG tape as it has a thickness to it whereas wet paste (etc) has none. But if what you do works for you nobody can disagree and I'm certainly not trying to change your mind.
Last edited:
monkey
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
I agree, wet adhesive is a stronger bond than ATG. I do not dispute this.
I'm curios, how do you attach a typical double mat?
A regular double mat, with reveal, I always glue. Just a few dots. Put my paperweights on it for a few minutes until it sets. Easy to pop the glue if needed, but holds it firmly in place. Cheaper than ATG
RoboFramer
PFG, Picture Framing God
I do the same but with a few small dabs of ATG to prevent movement while it dries.
I used to dot that John, but with good glue and a little weighing down, it sets quickly enough. I then put the glass on top before building the frame. By the time I’m ready to do the fitting, it’s set enough
John, there's a glue available from the same folks that make Maxim wood glue that is called ATG Turbo. It is my go-to for securing any permanent* paper to paper bond as well as attaching the dust jacket. It is a PVA product with a lot of vinyl, and is heat reactivated. It is a lot like fabric glues, but a bit thicker. I load it into 2oz. medical bottles used in administering liquids dropwise which results in a very consistent 1/16" bead. This may well be meaningless if the product isn't available outside North America.
*As measured in the average lifecycle of the common raccoon.
*As measured in the average lifecycle of the common raccoon.
