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Best way to make 8 ply mat from 2-4 ply mats?

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Echobelly

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Occasionally we get an order for an 8 ply mat, but the color the customer wants is only available in 4 ply (I'm talking white and off white rag, not colored mat). I've tried dry mounting two 4-plys together in the heat press with Fusion 4000, but you could see the line where they join on the bevel. Would spray mount be better? I'm thinking I'd have the same issue. Any one have a better solution?
 

Mary Beth van der Horst

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I've fudged the look of a couple (technically 12 plys) before by cutting a 4 ply top mat, then a white 8 ply at exactly 1/8" reveal so that ONLY the bevel is visible. Not perfect, but good enough in those instances to get us the look we were going for.

On second thought, you may be better off just spraymounting or adhering a paper to an 8 ply. Shouldn't be as likely to see the line where the materials meet
 

cjmst3k

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Not from experience, but maybe spray-mount, but protect about 1/2" from the cut line, so you don't have the seam glue exposed, though it would leave the seam unsupported. Maybe do a simple cut test using flaw boards? Also, maybe butting the backs of the mats together, so the white is on white?
 

framah

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If you are mostly trying to use white and off white rag, then Rising has them in 8 ply.
White, warm white, antique and a couple other variations of white.
 
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wpfay

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Hugh Phibbs related the story of having to make their own 8-ply matting at The National Gallery before it was commonly available. They would mix up a large batch of rice starch paste and roll it on one side of the 4-ply mat and put 2 4-ply mats on top of that in a repeated pattern until they ran out of paste or mats. Weighted overnight.

You can do the same thing in a vacuum press, as Jerry mentioned.

I have made 8-ply using Seal Buffermount which is still visible at close inspection. You have to cool the package under pressure so it ties up the press for quite a while.

For larger sizes, above 40" X 60", or in solid colors not available in 8-ply from regular suppliers, I cut the top mat from 4/ply, then pinwheel beveled strips to match the bevel for as many layers as required. the strips are held in place with a combination of ATG and buffered PVA glue kept back from the bevel by 1/2" or so.

Rising has started making their basic 8-ply White and Warm White in 48" X 72".
 

RoboFramer

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I do it quite often, both for cotton and woodpulp boards, for the woodpulp boards - it will be alphamat artcare I make sure the bottom board is "igloo" as that is the closest colour to the core/backing paper. 8 ply in any colour you like. Starch paste with a small roller, weighted overnight.
 

Rick Granick

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For larger sizes, above 40" X 60", or in solid colors not available in 8-ply from regular suppliers, I cut the top mat from 4/ply, then pinwheel beveled strips to match the bevel for as many layers as required. the strips are held in place with a combination of ATG and buffered PVA glue kept back from the bevel by 1/2" or so.
I've done that too. For special decorative effects you can mix and match the bevel layer colors too.
:cool: Rick
 

snafu

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You could try this. Peel off the color needed and mount it to the 8ply

 
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Echobelly

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You could try this. Peel off the color needed and mount it to the 8ply

Great idea!
 

cjmst3k

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Tell that to some of our customers that go over the frame with a magnifying glass....
I have zero customers that pick up their piece from 6 feet away. It makes reaching it to hold it challenging.
 

Framar

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LOL - I had a customer who used to pick her mat colors out on the sidewalk in the sun. Always wondered if she was planning on hanging them outdoors.
 

05

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Occasionally we get an order for an 8 ply mat, but the color the customer wants is only available in 4 ply (I'm talking white and off white rag, not colored mat). I've tried dry mounting two 4-plys together in the heat press with Fusion 4000, but you could see the line where they join on the bevel. Would spray mount be better? I'm thinking I'd have the same issue. Any one have a better solution?
It happens that this is something I really know about. Make some paste. cut your boards a little big, mark one lightly where the window will be.Thinly brush on some paste about 2” around the marks, slam the boards together, put some weight on it for 20 minutes, you’re good to go. Keep the moisture minimal, or the boards will warp. If you use a synthetic adhesive, there will be a shiny line between the layers. If you use 2 different color boards, you can get a great effect. This works with both 4 & 8 ply.
 
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monkey

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I use ATG, simple and quick. Otherwise it is no longer profitable. I'd rather tell then its not available.

Measure where your cut out window is going to be and place the ATG about 1" to 3/4" away from the cut out window and cut the mat. When framed and pressed against the glass its barely noticeable, as long as the core are the same color and you sandwich the back side of the mats together.
 

RoboFramer

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I use ATG, simple and quick. Otherwise it is no longer profitable. I'd rather tell then its not available.

Measure where your cut out window is going to be and place the ATG about 1" to 3/4" away from the cut out window and cut the mat. When framed and pressed against the glass its barely noticeable, as long as the core are the same color and you sandwich the back side of the mats together.
What exactly is pressing anything against the glass? The only pressure you can apply is at the extremities. Also, even when bonding two mats together for a double mat, ATG/DS tape won't last, it needs to be something wet, the DS/ATG only serves to hold things while the wet adhesive dries.
 

monkey

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What exactly is pressing anything against the glass? The only pressure you can apply is at the extremities. Also, even when bonding two mats together for a double mat, ATG/DS tape won't last, it needs to be something wet, the DS/ATG only serves to hold things while the wet adhesive dries.
3M 924 ATG works just fine for me. ATG is holding 2 mat boards together. Not like your holding anything heavy or structural. The mat board is sandwiched between the backing board and glass.

So you make a typical double mat with wet adhesive? What brand ATG are you using? I use 3M ATG. And when I make a booboo and have to separate the mat the surface paper tears. To me this is strong enough.

In general, I only use 3M ATG, I have used generic brand in the past and they don't hold well over time.
 

RoboFramer

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3M 924 ATG works just fine for me. ATG is holding 2 mat boards together. Not like your holding anything heavy or structural. The mat board is sandwiched between the backing board and glass.

So you make a typical double mat with wet adhesive? What brand ATG are you using? I use 3M ATG. And when I make a booboo and have to separate the mat the surface paper tears. To me this is strong enough.

In general, I only use 3M ATG, I have used generic brand in the past and they don't hold well over time.
It's been covered here many times self adhesive versus wet adhesive - chemical bond versus mechanical bond. There is no argument that wet adhesive makes a better bond, when it dries is when it works, when the DS tape dries is when it starts to fail - just search with a few key words.

Regards this topic, you really need to be cutting through the adhesive you use and even then you may see a join, more chance of that with DS or ATG tape as it has a thickness to it whereas wet paste (etc) has none. But if what you do works for you nobody can disagree and I'm certainly not trying to change your mind.
 
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monkey

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It's been covered here many times self adhesive versus wet adhesive - chemical bond versus mechanical bond. There is no argument that wet adhesive makes a better bond, when it dries is when it works, when the DS tape dries is when it starts to fail - just search with a few key words.

Regards this topic, you really need to be cutting through the adhesive you use and even then you may see a join, more chance of that with DS or ATG tape as it has a thickness to it whereas wet paste (etc) has none. But if what you do works for you nobody can disagree and I'm certainly not trying to change your mind.
I agree, wet adhesive is a stronger bond than ATG. I do not dispute this.

I'm curios, how do you attach a typical double mat?
 
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wpfay

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John, there's a glue available from the same folks that make Maxim wood glue that is called ATG Turbo. It is my go-to for securing any permanent* paper to paper bond as well as attaching the dust jacket. It is a PVA product with a lot of vinyl, and is heat reactivated. It is a lot like fabric glues, but a bit thicker. I load it into 2oz. medical bottles used in administering liquids dropwise which results in a very consistent 1/16" bead. This may well be meaningless if the product isn't available outside North America.

*As measured in the average lifecycle of the common raccoon.
 
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